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5:00 PM
Word of the day: snook (a 'long nose' shown to somebody mockingly)
> Nearly 30 years later, in his social history of the between-the-wars years, Ronald Blythe portrayed the affair as an anti-establishment gesture, "a colourful snook cocked in the face of some of the most soul-crippling officialdom ever experienced by ordinary men and women".
 
4
Q: What Is the Origin of the Word "Sherpa"?

NeekuLongman Dictionary of Contemporary English, Subscription-only says: Sherpa n. a Himalayan person who is often employed to guide people through mountains and carry their equipment Word Origin Date: 1800-1900 Language: Tibetan Origin: sherpa 'someone who lives in an eastern country' Online Etymol...

Many Tibetans have the family name 'Sherpa'.
So all those answers sound like they're trying to explain the name of the music group 'The Smiths' by saying it means 'metal workers'
 
5:17 PM
@Robusto We shall see.
Biden would be wise to push through a big budget for Ukrainian aid before that time.
By the way, I cannot share the WorLdle results anymore, can you?
 
#Worldle #274 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr
@Cerberus how's that?
What happens when you press 'share'?
I've noticed slight changes, like when you get the answer it does fireworks almost right away.
 
@Mitch There is no button: i.imgur.com/bQCweCg.png (spoiler)
 
@Cerberus What's very strange?
 
See your own message.
You know you can click on the little arrow to see which of your messages I replied to?
 
5:38 PM
@Cerberus Strange...I got a button
on the flag part
also on the neighboring countries part
 
Hmm I didn't.
Oh, well.
Latin Wordle 294 3/6
🟨⬜⬜⬜⬜
🟨🟩🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
https://wordle.latindictionary.io/
>
Latin Wordle (new) 294 3/6
⬜⬜⬜🟩🟨
⬜🟨🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
https://ephor.us/latinwordle/
 
Daily Octordle #271
7️⃣4️⃣
🕛🕐
🔟3️⃣
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Score: 66
octordle.com
Latin Wordle 294 5/6

⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜🟨🟨
🟨🟨⬜🟨🟨
🟨🟩🟨⬜🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
Latin Wordle 294 4/6

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟨🟨🟩⬜🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
https://ephor.us/latinwordle/
 
 
1 hour later…
6:58 PM
@Mitch ज़र्रा has trill. रस doesn't look like have. But it feels there is a bit vibration when I pronounce it, as compared to other words starting with this consonant. Maybe that's why they mention it trilled.
However the following doesn't make sense to me:
Is it typo in wikipedia?
 
@Cerberus Yes, I don't have a problem with it.
 
@jlliagre How many riddles they have 🤣
 
Odd.
@Vikas It is correct.
Or at least close enough, I fathom.
 
@Cerberus I don't see T in Zara?
 
7:04 PM
But atom pronunciation is like T?
 
Not in America.
 
Like Tom
 
Or not quite.
 
@Cerberus WHAT?????
 
You can hear the American pronunciation there.
It is more like a d to my ears.
 
7:05 PM
Atom in the US is frequently pronounced like Adam. @Cerb is right.
 
But it might be considered closer to a flap.
T between vowels in America.
 
Daily Quordle 271
8️⃣6️⃣
9️⃣7️⃣
quordle.com
⬜🟨⬜🟨⬜ 🟩⬜🟩⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜ ⬜🟩🟨⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜🟨
⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜ 🟩🟩🟩🟩⬜
⬜🟨⬜⬜🟨 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
⬜⬜⬜🟨⬜ ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ 🟨⬜🟨⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜🟩 ⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜🟨 ⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟩⬜⬜ 🟩⬜⬜⬜🟨
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ 🟨⬜🟨🟨⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜🟨 🟨⬜🟨🟨⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜ ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
 
Or Canada.
 
But atomic gets a pretty clear /t/ sound.
 
Perhaps it is only when the preceding vowel is stressed?
Yes, I would not expect the flap in atomic.
 
7:07 PM
@Cerberus Probably.
 
But it would be in letter, catty, etc.
 
Maybe. When I say catty there is much more of a /t/ than there is in letter.
 
There is variation in America.
Also depending on how 'clear' the speaker is trying to (over)pronounce the word.
 
In the word catatonic there is a flap for the first /t/ while the second is enunciated.
 
This sounds pretty much the same as caddy to me.
@Robusto The first a has more stress than the second.
So that fits the pattern.
But the o has main stress.
 
7:10 PM
@Cerberus Yeah, for one speaker. The speaker for catty-corner pronounces the /t/ more.
 
Yes, there is variation depending on many factors.
Never believe those who would say, "nobody says this!!".
 
Interestingly, we're watching a show about Northern Ireland, and the local dialect there seems to pronounce now like noy or almost nigh.
 
I never have those accents clear enough in my minds.
 
Accents are the great divider. Even places that use the same grammar and vocabulary can have a difficult time understanding one another.
 
7:26 PM
It also varies by person.
And by time.
And by mood and context and situation.
 
Yes. It is not what one might call stable.
 
@Cerberus okay just listened it is like adom. But still it doesn't sound like Zara.
There is no D like sound in Zara
 
@Vikas That greatly depends on the R.
Which language and which accent is that R supposed to be in?
 
@Cerberus Zara is a Hindi/Urdu word. It sounds like R.
I mean it doesn't sound like Zada at all!
 
Are you certain of what accent the Wikipedia article intended for that word?
The short tongue R can sound like a flap, like a d.
 
7:41 PM
@Cerberus Yes but Cana'da' and Za'ra' are totally different. Isn't it?
 
In Dutch, when we want to practice that R (many of us do not have it naturally), we say bdood instead of brood ("bread"), and it sounds similar if you say it fast.
@Vikas Again, that depends on the R. It is a letter with extremely varying pronunciation.
 
@Cerberus Maybe. But since they have mentioned a Hindi/Urdu word, it doesn't match to atom.
See this.
There is definitely something strange about this Wikipedia entry.
 
It could be somewhat close.
 
Nope
 
But it can be difficult in the mind to think of d and r as somewhat similar.
 
7:46 PM
I can agree with all other entries except this one.
 
Maybe the Hindi word is not a good match for a flap.
Listen to more examples of a flap, then.
> The sound [ɾ] is often analyzed and thus interpreted by non-native English-speakers as an 'R-sound' in many foreign languages. In languages for which the segment is present but not phonemic, it is often an allophone of either an alveolar stop ([t], [d], or both) or a rhotic consonant (like the alveolar trill or the alveolar approximant).
 
This is a Hindi song where zara - zara have been mentioned twice: youtu.be/NeXbmEnpSz0?t=56
 
@Vikas Sounds pretty similar to Adam.
 
@Cerberus 🤣
 
But, again, it can be very difficult to 'see' that they are similar, when you have been trained all your life to see d and d and r as r.
 
7:53 PM
@Cerberus what about this? It is also a Hindi name and same ending as Zara. So it should be like Adam:
If you still say Adam, I will believe you and will do further research.
To Hindi speakers, there's no difference between how zara and kyra end.
 
@Vikas No, this is a completely different R.
It is English pronunciation.
 
Wait.
 
@Vikas The sound of the R in Zara in your video, and Kyra in this video, is completely different.
 
These two are pure Hindi words, ending like Zara: मेरा मीरा
And listen to Google translate of them: translate.google.com/…
How about these two?
 
Zara in Hindi has an R that is closer to the front of the mouth. Kyra in English has an R that is in the throat, far back.
@Vikas Closer to Zara.
But Google has a muffled voice.
 
7:59 PM
@Cerberus Right.
 
And the first R in Google seems more muffled than the second.
Forvo is good for pronuciation.
 
Let me check that
 
But your Hindo song was fairly clear as well.
So an essential point is this: do you accept that there are very many, completey different R's in different languages, and also very different R's even in the same language?
 
I would say somewhat similar. But the recordings are fairly bad, unclear.
 
8:04 PM
(I used the Hindi pronunciation)
@Cerberus OK
@Cerberus I think it has something to do with first half of the word.
 
What has?
 
The way we start pronunciation of first half of word impacts latter half, I think.
 
That is possible.
 
That is why Kyra and Zara seem different.
Oh wait
I am sure why Krya felt different to you.
If I try to speak like American or English, I can surely say Kyra is entirely different than Zara.
Because my tongue goes more upwards inside.
Just like you said far back in throat.
That's why you said it is different.
But I think it is more true about how it is pronunced it as an English word.
Instead of Hindi.
 
It's quite difficult to discuss these matters when you equate letters with sounds and say that this or that of one isn't like this or that of another.
 
8:11 PM
True
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer, potentially bad keyword in username (95): Citing a Shakespearean Play: What Constitutes a "Line"?‭ by Raymond Scott‭ on english.SE
 
The coronal tap in the feline portion of "Here kitty kitty kitty!" in North America or Northern Ireland is the same one found in "Zara", at least in its original Spanish pronunciation, heard here: es.youglish.com/pronounce/zara/spanish. Do not deceive yourself with projecting spellings on to pronunciations because it makes you mishear things due to confirmation bias.
 
@Cerberus I found how a Hindi speaker pronounce Kyra here (doesn't exist in Hindi on forvo):
Does it sound different to you than that English pronunciation of same Kyra word?
It sounded little different to me.
 
What am I supposed to be seeing?
You mean hearing?
 
@Vikas Yes, completely different. The new one is more like Hindi Zara.
 
8:13 PM
@tchrist LOL yes
 
That's a tap not an approximant, but I can't be sure of the tongue placement on a quick listen.
 
@Cerberus So the conclusion is, that wikipedia entry is not incorrect. It is mostly true.
 
Listen to my Spanish links of how they say Zara. Disregarding the initial consonant, does the consonant between the two A sounds seem closer to that of Hindi than to that of non-Scottish English?
 
And the minor issues could be just because of difference of languages.
@tchrist Link?
 
> /ɽ/ is lateral [ɺ̢] for some speakers.

/r/ is essentially a trill.[21] In intervocalic position, it may have a single contact and be described as a flap [ɾ],[22] but it may also be a clear trill, especially in word-initial and syllable-final positions, and geminate /rː/ is always a trill in Arabic and Persian loanwords, e.g. zarā [zəɾaː] (ज़रा – ذرا 'little') versus well-trilled zarrā [zəraː] (ज़र्रा – ذرّہ 'particle').

Hindustani also has a phonemic difference between the dental plosives and the so-called retroflex plosives. The dental plosives in Hindustani are laminal-denti alveolar
 
8:17 PM
@tchrist Where he mentions zara, nike, adidas?
 
That paste is from here.
@Vikas Yes, but listen to a variety of those many clips.
 
OK
Many clips? Did you share more here?
 
@Vikas Yes, I would say so. Though there may be subtle differences: it may be an approximation. For d is not the same as the dental flap ɾ.
But it is difficult for me to identify or describe the difference.
 
@Vikas No, hit the button to skip to the next clip.
 
@tchrist Oh
 
8:20 PM
like the ⏯ button
but with a single line
The Wikipedia page I've cite there says Hindi usually does the same as Spanish does intervocalically: "In intervocalic position, it may have a single contact and be described as a flap [ɾ]"
 
I will check them and will tell you later.
 
That's the sound that North Americans make when they "flap" their t's.
 
There are many, I need to pay some attention.
 
@tchrist Does it sound identical to the d in Adam and the t in atom, in American pronunciation?
 
It is spelled [ɾ] in IPA.
 
8:22 PM
And how close does it sound to a [d], to you?
 
@Cerberus No, because you hold your mouth and tongue very differently in Spanish. The contact point in American English is further back from the alveolar ridge and using a broader less pointy part of the tongue. But those are small matters.
 
Hmm.
 
Feb 20, 2021 at 22:10, by Robusto
It helps if you undershoot your jaw.
 
Then how would you transcribe that d/t?
 
@Cerberus With the same symbol.
> Its place of articulation is dental or alveolar, which means it is articulated behind upper front teeth or at the alveolar ridge. It is most often apical, which means that it is pronounced with the tip of the tongue.
The voiced alveolar tap or flap is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents a dental, alveolar, or postalveolar tap or flap is ⟨ɾ⟩. The terms tap and flap are often used interchangeably. Peter Ladefoged proposed the distinction that a tap strikes its point of contact directly, as a very brief stop, and a flap strikes the point of contact tangentially: "Flaps are most typically made by retracting the tongue tip behind the alveolar ridge and moving it forward so that it strikes the ridge in passing." That distinction...
The symbol alone will not tell you which of those variations is in play.
 
8:29 PM
@tchrist I listened some of them they look like zara to me. Not like English Krya.
And one even pronounced it like Fara.
 
@tchrist OK.
 
It's very complex subject.
 
@tchrist OK makes sense, so a subtle difference.
 
@tchrist nīṛaj (नीड़ज) It feels hard to understand to me. If I try to pronounce each of them, I would pronounce them different.
 
@Vikas I do not know why you keep going back to English Kyra: that is a completely different sound, unrelated to the others we have been talking about.
 
8:30 PM
But according to standard Hindi as they have mentioned, both are closest.
 
@Vikas You hearing θ as f tells me you lack that phoneme yourself.
 
@Cerberus Because we also have Hindi names of same. And the pronounce it little different.
@tchrist Maybe. It just sounded to me like that.
This one I mean:
So it is like Thara? Not fara?
 
@Vikas Do you have the initial consonant sound of the English word thousand in your language? It's [ˈθäɾä] in standard Spanish.
@Vikas Yes.
It doesn't have quite the same tongue placement as the English "th" sound, but it is not an f.
He's got more friction there than English usually has.
 
@tchrist Okay. If you mean if what he pronounced and sound of thousand is similar, I guess I can't hear him properly. Because thousand to me doesn't sound founsand.
 
Yes, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_phonology says that there is no theta sound in Hindi.
 
8:37 PM
We have this: tʰ[1] थैला تھیلا thailā tub (but dental)
 
The Spanish t is dental, but it is not aspirated like that.
 
It would be closest for thousand I guess. That's how I pronounce.
 
@Robusto Derry Girls
 
The English t is alveolar, not dental.
 
@Mitch Ayup. Good show.
 
8:38 PM
It's a dental fricative.
 
@tchrist You mean tongue touches teeth?
 
The theta sound.
@Vikas Yes.
 
OK
 
Notice how the father has this (to me) traditional Irish accent (the one most heard in US media)
 
Don't native Russian people also speak T as dental in most words?
 
8:39 PM
@Robusto you might also appreciate ... Is it Florida Girls?
 
@Mitch Yes. But the rest are wading in Northern Irish.
 
Same sort of set up, but in Florida.
 
Funny how R is a complex subject. It took me a while to understand why a distinction between English accents was referring to pronouncing or not R (rhotic/non-rhotic) while to my ears the difference was between pronouncing something strange that wasn't at all an R and not pronouncing anything at all.
2
 
That's enough for me for today!
Thanks
 
@Robusto which is interesting for such a small (low population) country
 
8:41 PM
I wonder what time period is represented. Late '80s, maybe?
They're still mired in "the troubles" there.
 
@Vikas Russians have a "hard" laminal denti-alveolar /t/ phoneme which is distinct from their "soft" laminal alveolar /tʲ/ phoneme.
 
In a recent episode, they're out driving around and ask this old lady for directions and they think the lady has had a stroke because they can't understand a word she's saying
 
So there is a bit of dental engagement in the first one but not the second.
 
And it turns out she was speaking Irish 😅😂🤣
 
@jlliagre Try Scottish then. :)
 
8:42 PM
But that now-> nigh thing that sounds like one of those weird 'slender' Irish vowels
@Robusto the timing is a mystery to me. One episode is with the parents at a high school reunion....for the grad year 1977, which means that's the earliest the girls would have been born so the girls would be in high school in the 90's earliest
But they keep talking about the troubles which was early 70's
 
@tchrist Yes! Scottish R's sound Spanish. I like them.
 
@jlliagre The labialized retroflex approximant of red [ɻʷɛd] from North America, Ireland, and the English Westcountry is very hard for native speakers of any other language to make, apart from speakers of Mandarin Chinese who have it also.
@jlliagre They're nice and crisp.
You can tell where the settlers came from.
Many original American settlers came from the West Country of southwest England. Later there was an influx of Irish.
 
Florida Girls is hilarious in its own way, more of a 'Down and Out in Southern Georgia'
 
The UK Plymouth is in Devon, for example.
 
@Mitch Well, the troubles lasted a long time. Mountbatten was assassinated in the late '80s, IIRC.
 
8:51 PM
@Robusto oh. Right. Until the good Friday accords in ....
calculates
'93?
 
How old am I? I'm so old that CRT stood for cathode ray tube.
 
Oops '98
 
Not Critical Race Theory.
 
@Robusto we all had electron guns firing at our face all day, only the phosphors stopping us from getting an artificial 'tan'
 
Those were the days, my friend.
 
8:55 PM
Now we're just ingesting microplastics
Which will really annoy the crap out of cremation services
Really mess up the ovens
 
Speaking of that, when you get someone's "ashes" you're only getting their crumbled and crunched-up bones. All the rest is burned away.
 
I've heard they...add 'things' to the 'ashes'
 
You mean all the vaccination chips the QAnon people warned us about?
Mmmmm ... vaccination chips.
 
Need salt
 
Fishy
 
9:08 PM
Weren't we all supposed to explode from the vaccination last week? I thought there was some timer or some internet trigger
@jlliagre oh those I'd try again
 
@Mitch Oops.
I'm always late.
What now?
 
@Cerberus if you missed it then they'll get you on the next vaccine
 
@Mitch There's a new one?
 
@Mitch Oh, I'll need to get that one, then.
@tchrist Hah.
 
I think there's one for bivalves now.
 
9:14 PM
Our bodies are totally corrupt from all the vaccines we've taken lately. So corrupt that we may never get sick again. I ask you, is this the way to be an American?
 
@tchrist well actually
 
Yes, full stop.
 
There -will- be another one, just like there are new flu vaccines every year
 
You're so washy.
 
@jlliagre it would totally stop progression of the disease
It's not a miracle cure...the results are not immediate.
A few minutes of gurgling and then it stips
 
9:18 PM
Your scales are off.
 
Oh.
I feel naked
I'm a fish
Get it?
 
Go give me 10 minutes of double-octave scales in D major. It will improve your prestidigitation.
 
A fish whose scales are off would feel a little underdressed
 
You're so manqué.
 
@Mitch A shaved fish?
 
9:20 PM
Goes with the hanky and the panky.
 
@Robusto Just imagine
 
Will µaggressions never end?
 
A fish should be the symbol of justice. Because, you know ... scales.
 
@jlliagre You can get coronavirus from eating poutine. Word to the wise.
 
It's good but...
It's no chili-cheese fries.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:58 PM
 
Oh, the weatherman agrees.
 
11:30 PM
@tchrist Now he has pronounced "a chill draught" correctly, all of a sudden.
 
Yes, after his screed he tries to switch the narration to a weather report, and the weather report host says: "yes, total, complete annihilation, Vladimir Rudolphovich", showing his support to a fight with the NATO
Once a girl who worked with him tried to mildly disagree. He started yelling at her. Now I guess he is surrounded by complete flunkies.
 
Who, the weatherman?
The arbitrary threats are tiring, and what do they accomplish?
 
Yes, the weatherman, to be on the safe side, started his weather report by agreeing with the host.
 
Smart.
 
@Cerberus His main job is to stay alive. He as a TV and radio host has propagandized enough to be hanged by an international tribunal.
 
11:38 PM
Hmm seldom are people hanged over propaganda.
 
He can maybe flee to Iran, or North Korea.
 
Fun.
 
In the early 00s, he was critical towards the Putin regime. When Putin shut down Russia's only independent country-wide TV news network, he gave a nice speech about how it was wrong.
In 2010, he made a speech how it would be utterly wrong to annex Crimea.
 
We have a weatherman running for governor here. A Republican, naturally.
 
11:42 PM
Yeah, right.
 
In 2013 he said, replying to a question: "Annexing Crimea means war. Do you want to go to war with Ukraine?"
@Robusto He has a good dentist
Or a good Photoshop editor.
 
@CowperKettle Yeah, but he doesn't want women to have control over their own bodies.
Because, you know, it's not what god wants.
 
Yes. Had God wanted for it, he would have installed a control stick there, like he did with men.
No control stick - no right to control your body.
It's clear and simple.
 
Right.
 
Now I see the truth.
 
11:46 PM
> You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
 
Yes, it's a great song ))
There was even a terror group named after that line
The Weather Underground was a far-left militant organization first active in 1969, founded on the Ann Arbor campus of the University of Michigan. Originally known as the Weathermen, the group was organized as a faction of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) national leadership. Officially known as the Weather Underground Organization (WUO) beginning in 1970, the group's express political goal was to create a revolutionary party to overthrow the United States government, which WUO believed to be imperialist. The FBI described the WUO as a domestic terrorist group, with revolutionary positions...
> The group took its name from Bob Dylan's lyric "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows", from the song "Subterranean Homesick Blues" (1965).[9]
> ... to achieve "the destruction of U.S. imperialism and form a classless communist world"
 
@CowperKettle Yes, I'm well aware.
 
I listened to "The better angels of our nature" by Stephen Pinker, and he mentioned that in the book.
The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined is a 2011 book by Steven Pinker, in which the author argues that violence in the world has declined both in the long run and in the short run and suggests explanations as to why this has occurred. The book uses data simply documenting declining violence across time and geography. This paints a picture of massive declines in the violence of all forms, from war, to improved treatment of children. He highlights the role of nation-state monopolies on force, of commerce (making other people become more valuable alive than dead), of increased...
A long, rambling audiobook, but interesting in places.
> Bill Gates considers the book one of the most important books he has ever read,[9] and on the BBC radio program Desert Island Discs he selected the book as the one he would take with him to a deserted island.
 
> The book uses data simply documenting declining violence across time and geography
This is somewhat misleading.
But, yeah, I think the overall message of the book is most probably correct.
 
@CowperKettle Its title is a quote from Abraham Lincoln.
> We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.
From his first inaugural address.
It didn't quite work out as he'd hoped.
 
11:58 PM
> Mrs. Lincoln was often pale, and frequently complained of headaches or other ailments. Gossip swirled about her stormy moods; she was even said to hit her husband, or to insult him in front of visitors. Abraham Lincoln’s assistant private secretary, John Hay, famously dubbed her “the hellcat.”
 
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