English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Standing by the swimming pool, you see a gentleman who is not swimming. You say: Oiga señor, ¿porqúe no nada nada? And he answers: Porque no traje traje.

ChairOTP

5:03 AM

If I told you 'ball', you can think of either two definitions. Yet, it's just one word, you don't know the exact meaning because you have no reference as which meaning it has.

tchrist

Are you going to tell me that nada and nada are the same word?

Or that traje and traje are?

I don’t really think so.

ChairOTP

Once again, context is what gives you the reference to know which meaning the word itself has.

tchrist

Well, if that is true, then might and mite are the same word, or break and brake.

ChairOTP

Your example doesn't really work in Spanish.

tchrist

I’m stretching to make a point.

Again, what is a word?

ChairOTP

5:06 AM

As you said inflexions doesn't really count, that'd be unfair when comparing one language to another.

tchrist

Are read and red the same word?

ChairOTP

They're definitely not.

tchrist

Are read and read the same word?

ChairOTP

They might be pronounced a bit alike.

I would have to say yes, since there's no context that tells me one has different meaning from the other one.

tchrist

read the present tense vs read the past tense.

I will read the book tomorrow. I have already read the book.

Are those the same word?

ChairOTP

5:08 AM

They are, but they have different meaning. Once again an inflection.

Look: Representación gráfica de la palabra hablada.

According to the RAE.

tchrist

They are not pronounced the same.

ChairOTP

But the 'representación gráfica' is the same, isn't it?

tchrist

The present tense is homophonous with reed. The past tense is homophonous with red.

Is that what a word is?

ChairOTP

One of the many definitions.

tchrist

So center and centre are different words?

ChairOTP

5:10 AM

Isn't centre used in Britain?

tchrist

It is.

It is pronounced identically.

prime

Hi friends, how are you all?

tchrist

It is used identically.

prime

I'm back.

I have a question

ChairOTP

Once again, you're messing with regionalisms (if I can call it that way).

prime

5:12 AM

If a word is adjective, then how can i know if that adjective would appear before an object or person or thing or an abstract thing?

tchrist

So those are or are not the same word?

ChairOTP

Let's say there's only one correct English (which I know is totally wrong) any variation of the word would be wrong, but it still refers to the original word, being the variation the same than the original word.

I'm going to remain impartial in my answer regarding your example.

tchrist

The first definition of word in the OED is “collect. pl. Things said, or something said; speech, talk, discourse, utterance; esp. with possessive, what the person mentioned says or said; (one’s) form of expression or language.”

ChairOTP

@prime My answer is going to be poor, but the context says it all.

Then argh would be a word?

tchrist

@prime I have no idea what that means.

prime

5:15 AM

suppose good is adjective

good food, good man, good letter, etc

But suppose i have another adjective,

I know the meaning of that adjective,

But i'm not sure abut its usage

tchrist

I don’t see why not.

prime

I don't know whether if it will come before object or person or behavior or some abstract idea

So what should i do?

tchrist

Use a dictionary.

prime

That is painful/cumbersome for 2000 words

ChairOTP

If you know the meaning, and you know how to use 'good', I don't know what's the problem with another adjective?

tchrist

5:17 AM

Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

prime

I'm not taking about the good only

Suppose the adjective is = ignominious

tchrist

That is a very fancy word.

Of extremely narrow application.

prime

ignominious food/person/object/concept/behavior?

ChairOTP

An oxymoron @tchrist

tchrist

Blame Chomsky.

prime

5:19 AM

impair = worsen, how?

im + pair

ChairOTP

I don't see how food would be ignominious

prime

pair = couple

What is im ?

tchrist

@ChairOTP No, certainly not.

ChairOTP

@Prime maybe you should take a look at prefixes and suffixes

tchrist

@prime Non sequitur.

Etymological fallacy

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. This is a linguistic misconception. An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology. A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies, or claiming that a word should be used in a particular way because it has a particular etymology. A similar concept is...

ChairOTP

5:20 AM

BTW @Prime, what is your native language?

tchrist

She doesn’t seem to wish to tell us that.

I suspect Chinese.

ChairOTP

Even though that's true, he's asking for 'im', and that makes me think of suffixes.

tchrist

She has an OED subscription; she can look these things up.

ChairOTP

But the etymology of a word can surely help him/her out to clear out the doubt as for pair and impair.

Even when it won't tell him every meaning the word itself has nowadays.

prime

@tchrist, Please illuminate

tchrist

5:23 AM

Please answer our questions.

ChairOTP

In order to help you, you need to help us to understand what you want.

prime

@tchrist, which interrogatory?

tchrist

What is your native language?

Mahnax

finishes homework

Whew.

Glad that's done.

ChairOTP

@Mahnax What subject?

prime

5:26 AM

@tchrist, How is it pertinent here?

tchrist

Yes, exactly.

Mahnax

@ChairOTP English, Chemistry, Maths, and Physics.

tchrist

You can forget about me illuminating anything.

ChairOTP

@Mahnax What grade are you in?

Mahnax

@ChairOTP Eleven, doing full IB.

tchrist

5:28 AM

He won’t know what "IB" means.

ChairOTP

Exactly.

tchrist

Not your fault.

We didn’t either.

ChairOTP

Is it something like AP classes?

prime

@tchrist, illuminating the compendium of this link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy

tchrist

Yes, apparently.

Mahnax

5:28 AM

@ChairOTP Yes, sort of.

AP is easier.

"AP teaches you to memorize, but IB teaches you to think."

ChairOTP

@Mahnax So there's something harder than AP? Damn, we need that here.

Maybe harder isn't the world I should use there.

tchrist

@prime You are going on ignore until you tell us where you are from and what your native language is. Bye.

Mahnax

Oh, I forgot about that feature. Yep.

tchrist

It’s the only way to deal with some people.

ChairOTP

I'm so raising my kids in another country.

Mahnax

5:30 AM

@ChairOTP Do you have kids now, or is that a plan for the future?

tchrist

@ChairOTP Really?

ChairOTP

@Mahnax Oh God no, is a plan for the future.

tchrist

I don’t know what it is like where you live. I have never been there.

ChairOTP

You're not missing out on anything tbh.

tchrist

I do know that I like the Colombian accent.

It is one of the clearest in South America.

ChairOTP

5:31 AM

The one from the capital.

prime

Hello everybody, i'm trying to use those new English words i have learned lately, so if i do some mistake please mend the way of my usage of these words

ChairOTP

Because we have tons of accents here.

tchrist

I bet you are right.

prime

I'm trying to use those words here in chat room right now

ChairOTP

I have what you'd call the clearest accent.

tchrist

5:33 AM

I’ve probably only spoken with university-educated Colombians who have travelled to the States for techie conferences and such.

prime

@tchrist, you didn't illuminate the compendium of that etomology link...

ChairOTP

Yes most of them come from the capital, but obviously there are people who come from other parts of the country.

tchrist

I have heard that it is hard in your country. I am sorry for that.

ChairOTP

By hard you mean?

tchrist

Difficult. Economy. Politics.

ChairOTP

5:34 AM

Yeah we're screwed.

prime

I'm trying to follow the incessant revising method to memorize new words. Is it a good method?

ChairOTP

But that's why I'm working so hard to success in this screwed-up country.

tchrist

I wondered if that is part of why you might wish to raise your children elsewhere.

ChairOTP

That is one of the many reasons.

prime

Who wants to raise children somewhere else? Why?

tchrist

5:35 AM

Here in North America, it is so big that it is easy to move a zillion miles away and feel like you are in a totally different place.

Mahnax

@ChairOTP If you don't mind my prying, how old are you?

ChairOTP

I feel proud of being Colombian, but I know there are better things I could offer to my offspring.

@Mahnax It's ok, I'm 17.

Mahnax

Oh, I'm reading a book in English written by a Colombian.

Chronicle of a Death Foretold.

ChairOTP

OMG

tchrist

You are remarkably well studied in English for someone so young.

ChairOTP

5:37 AM

One of my favourite books

G.G.M

Mahnax

I have to write six commentaries on it.

ChairOTP

@tchrist It's actually funny how I became interested in the language.

prime

I read some news about fire in forest in USA, is it a sequel of someone's incendiary?

tchrist

Six??

Wow.

Mahnax

@ChairOTP Gabriel García Márquez.

tchrist

5:38 AM

@ChairOTP Funny as in amusing, or funny as in strange?

ChairOTP

@Mahnax It's a really good book, I have seen the play and read the book like 5 times.

Mahnax

@tchrist Yep, on six different quotations from the book. I wrote my third one tonight.

ChairOTP

@tchrist as in child.

tchrist

I’ve only read Cien Años de Soledad.

ChairOTP

Our Nobel Prize.

tchrist

5:39 AM

One of those has-to-be-read things.

ChairOTP

@tchrist If you want to know more about what is it like here, you should check out 'Scorpio City' and 'Satanás', both by Mario Mendoza.

tchrist

It is superlate. I need to be going to bed. It was very nice meeting you.

Ok, thanks. I may do that.

Mahnax

@tchrist Good night!

tchrist

Good night, kids. :)

ChairOTP

@tchrist Goodnight, and it was nice talking to you as well.

prime

5:43 AM

I have posted a response in for the first time here

0

Q: How to use "should have been" to express conditions?

Lets say that someone is driving a car but doesn't possess a drivers license and I am telling him "You should have been obtained a drivers license before drive a car." is this usage of "should have been" correct or else please give me an example about how to use "should have been" for expressi...

grammar

ChairOTP

@prime, do you still have doubts with that thing you said earlier?

prime

Was my response particular?

ChairOTP

Excuse me?

prime

Wow, i got upvote and also marked that as answer for the first time,

1

Q: How to use "should have been" to express conditions?

Lets say that someone is driving a car but doesn't possess a drivers license and I am telling him "You should have been obtained a drivers license before drive a car." is this usage of "should have been" correct or else please give me an example about how to use "should have been" for expressi...

grammar

ChairOTP

Are you Rain Lover?

prime

5:47 AM

Oh, i missed the answer.

Mahnax

@prime Which answer is yours?

ChairOTP

I think he/she is ignoring me.

prime

guru

Mahnax

Oh, is that so? Interesting.

prime

Why is it fascinating?

Mahnax

5:50 AM

It isn't.

It's interesting though.

prime

Someone is giving me negative vote here, I'm feeling bad.

-2

Q: Is this sentence correct using "incendiary"?

I have read some news about fire in forest in USA, is it a sequel/result of someone's incendiary? Is it correct syntax and symantics? Can it be written in better way? incendiary = set fire by someone sequel = result

word-usage

I don't know why are they giving negative vote

ChairOTP

Because of the way you formulated your question.

prime

I edited the post.

Mahnax

I did too, and I think mine was much better.

The information at the end isn't necessary.

You spelled semantics wrong.

The sentence after the quote/example sounds awkward.

ChairOTP

And also the definition provided of incendiary is wrong.

Mahnax

5:54 AM

Yes.

I was getting to that.

ChairOTP

I think I'm going to stop by around here more often, it seems effective to learn from other's mistakes.

Mahnax

It's nice to have you here.

ChairOTP

It's nice to find people like you here.

Mahnax

Alright, @prime, are you going to let me edit your question, or are you going to wallow in your stubbornness?

2

I'm just trying to help, you see.

WMD

@prime It seems you actually changed the question. "Sequel" isn't in it any more. Was that intentional?

Mahnax

5:57 AM

Oh boy, now our good friend the seagull has hopped on the train.

WMD

I am the walrus.

Mahnax

Goo goo, g'joob.

ChairOTP

Back to the Incomпrehensible Room

WMD

I thought the seagull had been suspended, for annoying simchona!

Mahnax

That was just for a week though, wunnit?

WMD

5:59 AM

Oh, it went by really quickly.

Mahnax

Yeah, it did.

How are you, by the way?

@ChairOTP What kind of music do you like?

WMD

@Mahnax Who, me?

ChairOTP

@Mahnax I tend to listen to everything but I like everything that has indie influences.

Mahnax

@WMD Yeah.

ChairOTP

I also don't like 'bands', I like songs.

Mahnax

6:01 AM

@ChairOTP Example?

@ChairOTP Oh, that's interesting.

prime

I got synonym of result in google translate, result, outcome, sequel, end, conclusion, event

WMD

Mostly well, I suppose. I have spent far too much time in this chat room recently, which always annoys me afterwards. How about yourself?

Mahnax

I like listening to albums as a whole.

ChairOTP

@Mahnax, is sequel the same as aftereffect?

WMD

@prime Google translate is not the most reliable source of information about any language.

Mahnax

6:02 AM

@WMD I am tired, but otherwise doing well.

@ChairOTP Not really.

ChairOTP

@Mahnax, I can listen to a song a billion times and not get tired of it.

Mahnax

A sequel tends to be a publication of some kind—a movie, book, etc.

WMD

@ChairOTP The most common use of "sequel" is as the second installment in a continuing story.

Or actually, any installment after the first.

There may be other uses of this word, but they're not terribly common.

ChairOTP

So I guess it must be a false friend. As in Spanish 'secuela' is used as aftereffect as well.

prime

Is it reliable? dictionary.reference.com

ChairOTP

6:04 AM

Yes

prime

plausibility = possibility ?

ChairOTP

@Mahnax What music do you like?

@prime NO!

WMD

@prime It's OK, I guess, but if you want "a result, consequence, or inference" (definition 3 of sequel), you should really say "result", or "consequence", or "inference".

Mahnax

@ChairOTP I like lots of things, from indie to metal.

WMD

Simchona - do you have a filter that summons you when someone says your name?

Mahnax

6:07 AM

I'm not into pop, rap, hip-hop, electronic, or dubstep though.

prime

Am i incorrigible in sentence making?

Mahnax

I rather detest them, actually.

simchona

@wtd no, why?

WMD

@prime So, you have a word list, and you're up to the letter I, and you have to hand in example sentences for all of them, as part of some English course?

Most of the people who use this site don't really enjoy doing other people's homework for them.

ChairOTP

@Mahnax Same but I kind of like a bit electronic. And I'm not sure if dubstep could be called music, but far be it from me to say so.

prime

6:08 AM

That's not home work.

WMD

@simchona Because I said your name a couple of minutes before you arrived.

simchona

@wmd I'm just magical.

Mahnax

@ChairOTP I see, that's fair. To each their own.

simchona

Getting annoyed with the crappy proofreading questions.

2

WMD

@simchona Then Cerberus owes me $5.

ChairOTP

6:10 AM

@Mahnax How old are you? (If you're ok with it)

simchona

@wmd why?

WMD

We made a bet, about whether or not you have magic powers.

Mahnax

@ChairOTP Ah, I'm just about 16.

ChairOTP

@Mahnax I must say you're really smart.

Mahnax

@ChairOTP Ah, thank you.

I will say that your English is incredibly good for someone so young.

Even though you're older than I am, heh.

ChairOTP

6:14 AM

@Mahnax hah, I'm guessing I'm approaching my goal faster than I thought.

Mahnax

@ChairOTP Good! It's always nice when that sort of thing happens.

ChairOTP

But I still have to go to America and the UK. Those are things I've always wanted to do.

Mahnax

Aww, what about Canada?

It's nice here.

ChairOTP

I've been told to go there, but I don't really know much about there. I have a friend who went abroad last year to Vancouver.

She says it was really great.

WMD

The OP of the "should have been" question un-accepted an answer, and chose a different one.

Mahnax

6:19 AM

@ChairOTP Vancouver is pretty nice.

ChairOTP

@Mahnax Perhaps when I finish my career, I may go over there.

WMD

@ChairOTP Is "career" the word you intended to use in that sentence?

ChairOTP

@WMD It is.

Mahnax

I'm going to bed, good night.

WMD

OK, just curious. When I finish my career, I will move to a beach house and spend the rest of my life lying in the sun.

ChairOTP

6:24 AM

@Mahnax Good night.

WMD

Good night, @Mahnax

ChairOTP

@WMD Isn't that too much time of your life to 'waste'?

WMD

@ChairOTP I think you and I are using different definitions of "career"; which was kind of the point of my example.

ChairOTP

@WMD Career as in university.

WMD

The word you want might be "course", or "degree", or "diploma"; something like that. "Career" means the profession that you follow for a substantial portion of your life, or (often) your entire working life.

ChairOTP

6:29 AM

I had understood that 'career'also meant that.

WMD

That is its main meaning.

I would never use "career" to mean a university course.

Of course, you could have meant "career" in your sentence about Vancouver. But most people don't plan their lives 45 or so years ahead like that.

ChairOTP

Then course is what I thought is 'career', but it is also a 'subject', right?

WMD

No, I wouldn't say so.

ChairOTP

Then?

WMD

You might find that in a dictionary, but nobody uses the word that way.

Oh you mean "course" = "subject" ? Yes, totally. Sorry, I misunderstood your question.

ChairOTP

6:32 AM

Yep, I meant that.

WMD

So I would say ... "I will go to Vancouver when I've completed my degree" ... or something similar.

ChairOTP

Could I say "My university studies"?

WMD

Yes, definitely.

ChairOTP

:D

tchrist

RAE: carrera 7. f. Conjunto de estudios que habilitan para el ejercicio de una profesión. 8. f. Profesión de las armas, letras, ciencias, etc.
OED: career 5. a. A person’s course or progress through life (or a distinct portion of life), esp. when publicly conspicuous, or abounding in remarkable incidents: similarly with reference to a nation, a political party, etc. b. In mod. language (after Fr. carrière) freq. used for: A course of professional life or employment, which affords opportunity for progress or advancement in the world. Freq. attrib. (orig. U.S.), esp. (a).designating one who …

RAE sense 7 does not exist in English.

WMD

6:34 AM

I hope you don't mind being corrected. I assumed from your remarks when you entered this chat room that you were OK with this.

ChairOTP

@tchrist I use it because I have used it before with other native speakers, and they understood, but now I can use it properly.

@WMD Not at all, I'm actually glad you're doing it without me even asking, thank you.

tchrist

Did they also speak Spanish or French?

or Portuguese?

ChairOTP

No.

Only English.

WMD

@ChairOTP They may not have understood. It's possible that they were just being polite.

Or it may have been obvious from the context that you actually meant "university studies".

tchrist

Well, I knew immediately what you meant. I had to check the OED though to make sure it wasn’t a known use in English, because I am contaminated.

ChairOTP

6:38 AM

@WMD But my friend even asked: What career are you taking?, I think that's how she asked.

tchrist

One’s “career studies” are different, and would be fine, perhaps.

WMD

@ChairOTP Hmm, that sounds like a very odd thing for a native speaker to say.

tchrist

I don’t think you take a career in English.

You pursue one, perhaps.

WMD

Yes, "what career are you pursuing" would be a normal question.

It would also be a polite way of finding out whether you really meant "career", or whether you meant "studies"; because it would fit even if "career" did mean "studies".

ChairOTP

I don't really remember how she asked, so I couldn't tell.

I think she just knew it because we were talking about university, and courses.

She wanted to be a doctor, so...

tchrist

6:41 AM

Hm.

WMD

@tchrist You could take a career in IT over a career in academia, for example.

tchrist

@WMD I think I might say choose there, or one of its synonyms. Select, elect, pick, opt for. I’m not saying that take necessarily has to be wrong, just that I like the others better.

WMD

I switched to IT because I just couldn't take my earlier career.

tchrist

That’s different.

WMD

Everything I say is different.

tchrist

6:45 AM

I could sell you some spare R’s.

ChairOTP

@WMD Do you agree that read and read are different words?

WMD

@tchrist I wasn't looking at your R's.

tchrist

I should hope not.

WMD

@ChairOTP It depends how you define "word". I'm not going to referee your earlier argument.

ChairOTP

@WMD I'm not looking for an answer, but from your point of view.

tchrist

6:52 AM

I do believe I may run out of closevotes today. For certain values of day.

Oh sweet @simchona, pray make them go away!

WMD

@ChairOTP Yeah, what you're arguing about is what "word" means, though. I don't really have an opinion about that.

@tchrist Yes, if I see one more "Is this sentence correct using Ixxxx" or similar, I am going to scream.

ChairOTP

Why they don't just go ask on Yahoo?

WMD

If that person comes back to this chat room, you could ask them.

gippslandtimes.com.au/story/335019/…

Jez

9:24 AM

comment ca roule les gars?

ЯegDwight

Très très.

Jez

not really an answer to the question but anyway...

ЯegDwight

Not an answer you can understand, perhaps.

Jez

it's bloody incomпrehensible

ЯegDwight

Thank ю.

Jez

9:35 AM

i see the UK government are making it easier to fire employees

because that's what we're missing in the UK. it's too hard to fire employees. I mean you can only unfairly dismiss them for the first 2 years! Ridiculous.

ЯegDwight

Yeah employees are overrated. Why allow any in the country at all.

Jez

turning into America, we are.

land of the enslaved.

and another thing; why are people still pronouncing the year "two thousand [and] ..."

for god's sake, people, didn't the olympics teach you that it's "twenty ..."???

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…