The Heap™ – Consultancy ©®

7:23 AM

A chairde - Morning all!

McNets

7:43 AM

Morning

8:32 AM

This question is so convoluted it should just be closed to leave room for something better. dba.stackexchange.com/questions/110636/…

That's a dumb statement even by your standards

Michael Green

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW I stumbled upon this a while back. He implements a Turing machine in Powerpoint!

8:55 AM

I tried to salvage both the question and answer

@EvanCarroll Seems generally ok, but why remove the table and index definitions?

Column   | Type   |                         Modifiers                  | Storage
-----------+--------+----------------------------------------------------+----------
 id        | bigint | not null default nextval('items_id_seq'::regclass) | plain
 data      | text   | not null                                           | extended
 object_id | bigint | not null                                           | plain
Indexes:
    "items_pkey" PRIMARY KEY, btree (id)
    "items_object_id_idx" btree (object_id)

Because they have no relevance to the actual question at hand.

The existing indexes have no relevance to why a query that depends on good indexing is slow?

People always complain about a lack of table & index definitions

you can answer that question without them. ;) And it was answered without them. I mean the indexes are useful to confirm that such an index does not already exist, but that's obviously the problem and showing indexes that are already used in the query plan again in a table definition doesn't seem to accomplish much.

I just think it's weird to remove generally helpful information provided by the OP

8:59 AM

(except make the question longer, and more difficult for to peruse for new users)

I don't think it was helpful, just like I don't think it's helpful to say he vacuumed the table.

I mean it could be helpful, in some cases, but it turned out not to be helpful and wouldn't typically be helpful here.

When I see indexes referenced in a query plan I'd expect them to be defined in the question

Why, if they're being used and the end result is slow, does it actually matter?

I mean, I can give you a lot of query plans that use indexes that are slow, but the end result is that you're going to tell me to add an index that isn't slow.

Just doesn't seem useful to enumerate things that the don't work, after the question has an answer that satisfies the op. It just becomes useless debugging information (whether inside the database as in the case of an index/vacuuming/etc, or outside as the case of the hardware/os).

In other news! skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/52907/3835

weird.

@PaulWhite lol. lame dude.

Shrug. You made lots of changes. I think it's better like this.

Re: The comment you left on the question. If you act like a child, I will treat you as one.

I will not be in this channel ever again, nor will I be contributing to this community.

See ya

9:17 AM

@EvanCarroll Not weird at all! There are many phenomena about being a foetus - or even a zygote - that will affect you for the entirety of your days - (just to be clear, "affect" is on a statistical basis - any of the (strong) trends that have been noticed may or may not apply to a given individual).

Being the first-born (as determined by separated at birth individuals which controls for treatment of elder siblings) - maternal nutrition can be very important - it's all about ep-genetics and micro-biomes. My sister works for a major food firm - I've been trying to tell her for quite a while that her company should be "first into the breach" with a micro-biomic range!

@EvanCarroll Ah, please, Evan - Don't go! You are the light, the shining star, that makes my entire day worthwhile - I wake up and run to my machine to see if any other pearls of wisdom have dropped from your iridescent lips! Sorry - laying it on a bit thick there - but I believe that you are an asset to this community - please don't go away! :-)

in other news, the Novax saga continues?
I'm just catching up with what happened last night / this morning

Yep the court decided the visa cancellation was unreasonable

Remains to be seen how the government will react

They could re-cancel the visa using the Minister's powers

Not heard anything more about that yet though

@ypercubeᵀᴹ I know - maybe a bit like you forswearing off ever answering again, I'm going to comment - I saw that No-Vaxx's visa has been rescinded again! Good! He knew he was +ve - went around shaking hands, awards ceremonies &c.. He's a degenerate scum-bag! I hope he's never let into any country than his own ever again!

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW why are you so furious?

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW when was that? (shaking hands, award ceremonies, etc, while positive?)

He KNEW he was +ve! Off he goes with NO REGARD for anyone's mother, granny, grand-da... My mother is not in the full flush of her youth anymore - I'm concerned - my only care is that I don't inadvertently infect her!

9:25 AM

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW when was that?

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Widely reported!

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Some award ceremony on 17 Dec IIRC. He tested positive on 16 Dec.

I'm personally re-christening him Joke-o-vich!

if he did that, it is bad.

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Where did you see the visa has been cancelled again? That's news to me.

9:27 AM

but rather irrelevant to the australian fiasco

@PaulWhite it was reported by some news. Probably hoax I think

Being reported on RTÉ (as unconfirmed)...

What main news channels report is that the health minister has the option to cancel his visa (and that it is being considered)

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW I do expect it to happen, but haven't seen anything yet. You might be ahead

@ypercubeᵀᴹ How is it irrelevant? Many countries have clauses about "suitability to enter...", or "can integrate..." - he obviously can't and, more importantly, doesn't want to!.

@ypercubeᵀᴹ I think the difficulty is that even that decision could be subject to judicial review, so they'll need to do it properly.

9:29 AM

@PaulWhite yeah.

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW "integrate"?

he is not immigrating to Australia

@ypercubeᵀᴹ As Vérace says it could be relevant to general "good character" tests

It could also form part of an assessment by the Minister, if it could be considered a relevant factor.

@PaulWhite sounds possible. What I saw on Guardian:

> While Novak’s fans were celebrating his release from detention, the government’s lawyer dropped the fact that the immigration minister will consider using a separate power to cancel his visa.

Under that power, in section 133C(3) of the Migration Act, Alex Hawke would have to be satisfied:

- That a ground exists to cancel the visa – in this case the purported threat to public health because he is unvaccinated;
- The visa-holder “does not satisfy the minister that the ground does not exist”; and

That last line seems like opinion

@ypercubeᵀᴹ I I'm furious - the man is obviously a great tennis player - fine - not really my gig, but I can admire an athlete in most sports (except darts or snooker! :-) ), but I'm singularly failing to see where he obtained his qualifications in molecular biology, immunology, genetics and/or biochemistry! I have two such (primary degree and Masters) from prestigious institutions! I'm just pissed-off that a total f$%^-ing muppet's opinions are taken as gospel!

Well all that's happened so far is that a judge has decided the border force's decision to cancel the via was unreasonable

I suppose the government could also decide to appeal that decision in the High Court

Though it seems likely the decision was unreasonable, so that may not be the way to go

9:35 AM

If I were a South Australian or Melbournian (is there such a word?, I'd try and mess up his game. Fine, Mr. Djokovic, you want to mess with people's health, I'll mess with your stupid sport (far less important!!!)!

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW with f$$$$-muppet you mean the Australian PM? ;)

The federal government has been quite clear they don't want him, so the ball is in their court, so to speak

Or is it Victorian?

Anyway, point still stands!

I have seen both used.

> Novak Djokovic has not been arrested, according to four government and tennis sources.

The Immigration Minister is still deciding whether to re-cancel his visa, The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald has confirmed.

the Victorian government gave him the exemption. Then the federal gave hime the visa.
Which was revoked in the border.

9:38 AM

The above quote is from theage.com.au/sport/tennis/…

Remember the "Rules are rules" comment?

> We all play by the same rules. The reason why this minister for home affairs in this proceeding has agreed that the delegate’s decision should be set aside is for the reasons set out in the notation. Stated in other terms: those rules were not observed.

From the judge ^^

Oh is the judge's ruling out now? The text wasn't available when I last checked an hour or two ago

@PaulWhite I don't think there was a ruling.

The two parties came to a mutual agreement and the government revoked the cancellation.

At least a according to Guardian

It's now on Newstalk (newstalk.com) - I'll report back!

Irish radio!

> A Border Force official told Djokovic about 5.30am last Thursday morning he could have several hours to consult advisors before he had to sign any forms relating to the cancellation of his visa.

The Minister for Home Affairs ultimately agreed that because Djokovic wasn’t given the time as promised, the visa cancellation was unreasonable.

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Ah I see ^^^

9:41 AM

> At the end, in ordering to overturn the decision, Kelly said:

We all play by the same rules. The reason why this minister for home affairs in this proceeding has agreed that the delegate’s decision should be set aside is for the reasons set out in the notation. Stated in other terms: those rules were not observed.

So it was a technicality then

fcfcoa.gov.au/migration-law/online-file/djokovic

Technical victory - that's what I heard!

@ypercubeᵀᴹ The full judgement/notation is at fedcourt.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/95058/…

I now (given Joke-ovich's total disregard for human life) think that he should be unceremoniously f**k-ed out of Australia! And if the Irish authorities see fit to request my assistance, I'll be shoving my boot up his backside with pleasure!

@PaulWhite probably there were lots of technicalities discussed during the hearing

eg

> Kelly says a “matter that has really preoccupied me” is the status attached to the Tennis Australia document, and questions why it was not accepted by the delegate making the decision on the visa:

Here, a professor and an eminently qualified physician have produced and provided to the applicant a medical exemption. Further to that, that medical exemption and the basis on which it was given was separately given by a further independent expert specialist panel established by the Victorian state government and that document was in the hands of the delegate.

9:45 AM

Indeed

Still, if they had followed the rules, it might not have been ruled unreasonable even though there was nothing more Djokovich could have done.

That being the only consideration directly mentioned in the Order

I can imagine what pressure was coming from the ministers all the way down to the people doing the interviews.

Perhaps. Even more reason to follow the letter of the law.

It is embarrassing for them that they tripped themselves up, regardless of the wider issues of right and wrong.

The Australian PM claims the rules are incredibly clear, and applied equally to everyone. If that is the case, they'll have no problem proving that in court.

The legal branch of government has a role to prevent the arbitrary exercise of executive power.

So the system is working as it should.

I imagine there are some difficult conversations happening right now.

The wider issues are clear. He gives not a s"£t about anything or anybody but himself and increasing his huge (~ .25BN $) fortune). Forget about grannies and grandads - Serbia's stats are hardly stellar - he just wants to win another Grand Slam and f*** everybody else!

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW don't they all want to win the grand slam?

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Either that, or he legitimately believes he met the entry conditions and is entitled to play at the tournament.

9:55 AM

@ypercubeᵀᴹ And how many (just handed a +ve diagnosis) go out and sign autographs and don't try and socially distance?

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW I don't know about signing autographs but I can tell you about the greek idiot tennis player who publicly claims that he doesn't need and won't get vaccinated.

I would actually have had some respect if, on receiving the diagnosis, he'd said, I'm isolating for 10 days!.

Novac had not revealed his status in public

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Tsiparas or sthg like that?

Tsitsipas, yes

9:57 AM

Thanks

Verace what are the rules currently for travel to and from Ireland?

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Personally, I would prefer if we kept this nationality-free. There are (again, thankfully, vanishingly small numbers of) Irish people who would be anti-vaxxers!

can I travel to there if I am not vaccinated?

This is the most I've been interested in tennis since the days of Bjorn Borg and John McEnroe

Wooden racquets and all

because I travelled from UK to Greece and back for Christmas holidays. Vaccination was not a requirement.
It was either vaccination (2 doses) or negative tests (before and after arrival) or recent covid.

10:00 AM

@ypercubeᵀᴹ To Ireland? Not sure at the minute! I know that intra-EU, we cut some slack! I know that myself and financée had to go through the hoops when going to Catalonia last year (around Jul-Aug - Covid-19 seemed to going - vaccination was up, infections were down...).

I am only playing devil's advocate here.
So why would you ban Djok from every country in the world when UK and most EU still allow unvaccinated to travel freely (minus lockdown periods like in summer 2020 where air travel was mostly cancelled)?

Ireland entry requirements: citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/…

Recovery from C-19 within 180 days is deemed acceptable

So it seems if Novak is kicked out of Australia, he could go to Ireland

At the risk of encountering an angry Vérace of course

@ypercubeᵀᴹ TBH, I'm not sure about summer 2020 - in Ireland, we mostly battened down the hatches... there was a point (early in quarantine) it was 2.5k... bit of a joke really - my sister had a cert that allowed her to travel - food supply - she's works in an office - she's not on the abattoir floor butchering hogs! Then it was 5 k! We went to Austria in early March 2020 - various things were already being closed down. AFAIK, summer 2020 was fairly restricted.

Do not risk the wrath of Khan (or, rather, the new proxy for Evan). VERILY, I WILL SMITE YOU DOWN! :-)

2.5k, 5k, what are these measurements of?

Kilometres from your domicile - what else?

10:12 AM

allowed to travel 2.5km from home?

ah, ok

But, if no supermarket within that - nearest s-market!

I was allowed go to a general supplies store (hardware) - stopped at Garda (our police force) checkpoint - explained that I was going to get doodah 'X' - "On you go, thank you Sir...".

It's a shame in a way the court case was decided because of a failure to allow Novak to consult. The core issue - whether the government is able to cancel visas because recent COVID infection is not a valid reason for exemption - was not addressed.

Agreed - again quoting RTÉ, said it was a "technical victory".

He should have no victory!

Not that that will matter to most people who will only read the headlines

> Visa cancellation ruled unreaonable

Ah... the delightful great unwashed? Isn't it marvellous to be above all that?

I still hope he's gone!

10:19 AM

It might pay to avoid any form of "social media" for the next few days

Not isolating when you know you're infected! Cardinal sin!

The Heap is my social media - never liked anything on Facebook, never retweeted anything and never will!

Honorary Consul for Republic of Serbia just on radio (RTÉ) - Joki-ovic can do no wrong!

Can I ask you to refrain from the name-calling please? Technically it's a violation of the code of conduct.

No one's flagged it yet but I kinda have a responsibility here

Whom am a I "name-calling"?

You called him a scumbag just now

I'm sorry, but a tennis super-star is not a member of dba.se!

He's knowingly exposing people to a potentially fatal disease!

10:23 AM

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW I might be the next tennis super star ;)

I I drove my car on the public road after a bottle of vodka, I'd deserve to be called a "scumbag"!

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Even so, it's pretty well-established policy meta.stackexchange.com/questions/286082/…

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Yeah maybe but people could not do so here

All I'm asking is you tone it down a bit so I'm not forced into making a difficult decision on the issue

I don't propose to be unreasonable about it

But I can't allow it to become common practice either

Oh come on now you know that's not going to fly

Witness the lack of flight

OK then, how about tennis players in general who are in high-profile legal cases with an Antipodean government?

I have, many moons ago, worked as a bi-lingual legal secretary in Paris...

Can I call them "scumbags"?

No, name-calling is out

What about morons/cretins/half-wits?

10:35 AM

dba.stackexchange.com/conduct

> No name-calling or personal attacks.
Focus on the content, not the person. This includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to content (e.g. “lazy”).

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW All examples of name-calling I'm afraid. You'll have to find another way to make your points.

Or open a social media window I guess

My take is that the "respectful dialogue" and all of that is with respect to those who are your current interlocutors - not those who aren't on this forum or are never likely to be!

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Sadly that is not the way we see the rule.

Who is the "We"?

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW you can appeal the mod's decisions to the SE court. Let's see how well that pans out ;)

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW The company, its staff, and the moderators

10:40 AM

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Oh, Gawd, now I'm in the Joke-ovich position - just like the poor mal-treated Spartacus (his father compared his detention in Aus to that of being a gladiator!). Where is the higher authority?

It's pretty easy to stay within the rules.

just get vaccinated ;)

By not using the term "scumbags" when it's merited?

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Right

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW That would be a good first step, yes.

How about "feeble-minded" - is that enough milk in your tisane/infusion?

Or what about "Not having an educational background of sufficient quality to be able to appreciate to benefits of vaccination and how you won't go round killing the elderly and vulnerable of your country if you took a minute to read serious science"?

10:43 AM

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Are you struggling with the definition of "name-calling"? Rules-lawyering is not the way to go here. You can criticise many aspects of Novak's behaviour without resorting to base insults.

Try my last version!

This is starting to feel a lot like explaining the ins-and-outs of rep-trading to Evan.

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Seems reasonable to me

I don't want to be spending a lot of time on this.

My last offer was an opinion - people can judge!

One good thing to come out of all this is Novak has finally publicly admitted to being unvaccinated.

Previously I think he was ambiguous about it.

His choice of course. A strange one to me, but there you go.

Correct.

10:49 AM

Anyway, I'm either going to use that or similar ("certain celebrities who think their bank accounts match their IQ's and/or level of being able to understand science who...")...

Perhaps professional athletes have more to worry about w.r.t possible side-effects.

I think I read that quite a few EPL players remain unvaccinated.

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Whatever you think is best. I've done my best to offer advice.

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW I have a very nice book in Greece, next time I'm there I'll try to find an English version and send it to you.
I can't remember the exact title and I think the original is in French so not sure if I could locate it from here. I'm sure you'll enjoy it

Yeah, and where's my choice (not that I'd want it) to go into my local supermarket or bar with a cigarette in my mouth - I'd be immediately thrown out! Or what about my choice not to be obliged to expose my elderly mother to their filth and germs...?

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Well, a stab at the title would be good?

Yeah choices sometimes come with consequences.

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW move to Jakarta or Greece or some other no so strict on the smoke rules country ;)

10:52 AM

I read Durrell's books as a child about Corfu! Bucket-list - to go there!

some islands, Corfu, Rhodes are overrated as destinations.

My wife's family used to holiday on Kos (spelling?) when she was young

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW is that Durrell guy British?

@PaulWhite Kos, yeah. very nice. I haven't been there but to some nearby islands.

She has fond memories. Might be v different now

@ypercubeᵀᴹ As I said (non-smoker), I'm really, really happy with the no-smoking rules and proud that Ireland was one of the first countries to implement them (in EU anyway - Norway may have been No. 1 in Europe). I can leave a coat on a bench and it doesn't stink when I bring it home! Many more (cretins - am I allowed use that word?) tried all sorts of tricks to thwart the ban!

10:56 AM

Mind you, I don't claim that Corfu or Rhodes are bad. They are quite nice. Several monuments and other places to see. Nice seasides to go swimming.
Just a bit too humid for my taste.

Oh gosh yes heat and humidity is the worst combination

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Yes, Durrell was British - he was one of the first to make zoos into centres of conservation rather than just having the locals "poke the bears"...

Come to Ireland - you'll know all about humid!

Oh really? I thought it was just green and wet

Maybe at 30C, humid isn't nice?

It is green and wet - we can grass-feed cattle throughout the year - one of the few places in world where this can be done!

The inability to sweat to cool down is a big part of it, but high humidity in heat is just generally stiffing

10:59 AM

Totally - try Madrid in summer at 34C!

I did a speaking engagement in Lisbon once, that was enough

Sweat has nowhere to to! Checked out temp on Auckland at 10pm - 23 - sounds nice!

Lovely place though

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Auckland is too hot at times. Currently 19C here.

I don't recall the last time I had to be in AKL

Well, I'd take 23C over 19C! Worked in Paris - when the temp reached above 35, the boss just downed tools and we just sat there drinking water - Paris can be humid too!

23C at midnight is too hot for sleep

11:02 AM

That's why God invented AC!

That's just an expensive way of correcting an inhospitable climate

Not that I'm a fan - yeah, 15 - 20 is good for sleep. Anymore and you're (me anyway) sweating!

Agreed. About 20C is the limit even with windows open etc.

Ahh... just realised, "fan" - geddit!!! :-)

Ho ho

11:04 AM

Hate the noise of a fan at night!

They're always outside my window screaming and dancing for my release! :-)

Yeah on the rare occasion we use one, it runs facing out the sliding door at the far end of the house - to blow warm air outside

@Vérace-getVACCINATEDNOW Again with the ho ho ho

11:22 AM

changing the subject, there was a 5.4 earthquake just out of my hometown (northern Greece) last night

shallow enough to be damaging?

7km deep, 10km North of the town.

No casualties

pretty decent shake though

They moved quite a bit. Some stayed the night outside (in cars I presume)

that'd wake you up for sure

11:25 AM

the quake was a 23:45 local time

are earthquakes common in that region?

yeah. all of Greece has earthquakes.

Well I'm glad to hear no one was hurt

I don't mind an earthquake up to a certain size

Like storms I suppose

Kind of exciting up to a point

A quake big enough to make people stay outside for the night is probably over that boundary

11:50 AM

@PaulWhite yeah. and the weather in that are is cold at the moment.

and expecting some (snow)storm the next days. Not the best of times to stay outside!

(that are -> that area)

12:08 PM

Oh yes of course it is winter there

That certainly makes a difference

I always think of Greece as in summertime

12:59 PM

just below zero in the night. expected to hit -10 in the next few days

John K. N.

3:20 PM

@PaulWhite hahaha

@McNets this could possibly be reopened:

Bienvenido a la comunidad DBA.SE. Solo aceptamos preguntas en inglés. ¿Podrías traducir tu pregunta del español al inglés? Gracias. (Traductor de google) — John K. N. 9 hours ago

McNets

3:56 PM

@JohnK.N. done, thanks