The Nineteenth Byte

Redwolf Programs

6:00 AM

Anyway, it's kinda late here so p/

emanresu A

e/

lyxal

e/

(haha that spells pee that's so funny amiright?)

Redwolf Programs

Not as bad as it could've been I guess

hyper-neutrino

i think there was this one AOC that I solved by writing a custom python class, using a regex to replace the input a bit, and then eval the whole thing

the one about messing with op precedence? idr

Unrelated String

i think i remember that

yeah

you definitely mentioned doing that on that one

emanresu A

6:03 AM

Well, a lot of pain later, (((b(a(((b((a|b)(bb|ab))|a((ab)b|(aa|(a|b)b)a))a|((a(b(a|b)|ab)|b(aa|bb))b|((aa|bb)a|(ab|aa)b)a)b)b|(b(b(a(ab|ba))|a(a(ab|aa)|b(ab|ba)))|a(a((bb)a)|b(a(aa|(a|b)b)|b((a|b)a|ab))))a)|b(a((b(((a|b)a|ab)b|(aa|bb)a)|a(a(ab)|b(aa|ba)))a|((b(b(a|b)|ab)|a(aa|ba))b|(a(bb|ab)|b(aa|(a|b)b))a)b)|b(b(b((ab|aa)a|((a|b)a|bb)b)|a((bb|ab)b|(bb)a))|a(((ab|aa)a)a|(a(ab|aa)|b(bb|ab))b))))|a(a(a((((aa|bb)(a|b))b|(b(ab|aa)|a(aa|ba))a)b|(a((ab|ba)a|((a|b)a|bb)b)|b(b(bb)|a(aa|bb)))a)|b(((a(bb|ab)|b(b(a|b)|ab))b|(((a|b)a|bb)b|(bb)a)a)b|(a((bb|ab)a|(b(a|b)|ab)b)|b(b(b(a|b)|ab)|a(ab|aa)))a)…

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino day 18

emanresu A

CMC: Golf ^^

hyper-neutrino

Stop it. Get some help.

►

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino what a nerd. I just parsed it like an esolang and eval'd it

hyper-neutrino

well i think i did that for part 1

and then for part 2 realized i could do a little trolling

and then realized I could've saved a lot of time on part 1 doing that

emanresu A

6:05 AM

Is the answer to adventofcode.com/2020/day/19 404?

caird coinheringaahing

No, unfortunately the answer wasn't found

hyper-neutrino

everyone's input is different

lyxal

part 1 is easy if you use APL - just s/*/× reverse tokens and eval

Bubbler

IIRC that giant regex thingy can be spoiler

lyxal

@emanresuA my part 1 was 250

emanresu A

6:06 AM

Hm. My regex bad then

Oh wait I forgot to anchor it

I got 205 after anchoring

lyxal

@emanresuA be happy you never had to implement intcode

esolangs.org/wiki/Intcode

hyper-neutrino

oh god

i hated that so much

lyxal

> Intcode is an esoteric programming language created purely to annoy programmers competing in the Advent of Code 2019

some of my best writing right there

Bubbler

Intcode has so mixed reactions, really

Disclaimer: I haven't done 2019 at all

hyper-neutrino

i didn't save my intcode computer from day 2

so i had to rewrite it on day 5

lyxal

6:19 AM

CMQ: What's the python set operator ^ called?

e.g. {1, 2, 3, 4} ^ {2, 4}

hyper-neutrino

symmetric difference

outersection

Jun 11 at 20:33, 1 hour 23 minutes total – 39 messages, 5 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 5 secs ago by hyper-neutrino

caird coinheringaahing

"Elements in a or b but not in a and b"

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah but I can't use that as a python function name now can I?

Bubbler

elements_in_a_or_b_but_not_in_a_and_b

lyxal

huh, turns out it does fit inside 80 chars

even when it's indented it still fits

Bubbler

6:30 AM

Who keeps 80-char line width anyway :P

lyxal

Vyxal does

from the style guide

Bubbler

Oh wow, it has a style guide

lyxal

yep

github.com/Vyxal/Vyxal/blob/fresh-beginnings/documents/…

and it's had 20 revisions too

emanresu A

@lyxal set xor

Bubbler

6:47 AM

more precisely set.__xor__

Sandbox Posts

7:13 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Climbing up slippery stairs code-golf math combinatorics Challenge You're standing in front of a stairway with \$n\$ stairs in total. (If you label each staircase \$1,\cdots,n\$, the starting point counts as the 0th staircase.) You can climb up \$1,2,\cdots,k\$ stairs at a time. But some stairs a...

Sandbox Posts

8:11 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Verb arities in J trains code-golf Background J has trains similar to APL's. Given a sequence of verbs (functions), three rightmost verbs are grouped to form a derived verb (a fork) recursively, until one or two verbs remain. If the sequence has odd length, the entire train is a chain of forks. O...

Bubbler

Whenever I say something about the lack of challenge ideas, I magically get some

Anush

8:24 AM

@Bubbler I have an infinite number :) The problem is pacing myself

and also working out which tag would be happy for it

and then waiting for days while no one comments on the sandbox version :(

emanresu A

Holy guacamole, Firefox somehow survived a gigabyte-long string.

Bubbler

We're well aware that sandbox feedback doesn't come often, so we recommend to leave there for at least one week and ask in chat multiple times

emanresu A

9:00 AM

CMC: Write a competitive submission to a KoTH... In Brainfuck.

Competitive as in top 50%

Bubbler

That's surely a CMegaC, unless Wheat Wizard's one (RPS with 3 bits) goes live

emanresu A

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Depends on the KoTH

@Bubbler How many abandoned sandbox proposals do you have?

Bubbler

@emanresuA 8, as in "not touched for at least a month". Most of them are pretty complex or niche

If it gives 9, I just deleted a generic theorem proving one (which is meaningless now)

Anush

10:11 AM

this challenge is being posed at 00:00:00 tomorrow UTC codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/24013/98590

please comment!

(or as soon as possible after I wake up :) )

Anush

11:16 AM

@alephalpha Hi!

@alephalpha how closely related do you think it is ?

lyxal

occasionally I'll find a site that has code golf challenges that isn't here/codidact (think code.golf style of site) and I get reminded how lucky I am that this site allows SBCSs

e.g. I find this challenge, and I see that there is already a vyxal answer there and that it's 17 bytes. I say to myself "ha I'mma game on some nerds and win", create a 12 byte solution, go to submit it only to see that it's counting it as like 20 something bytes and realise that it scores everything in UTF-8

for reference the 17 byte answer is actually 11 bytes under SBCS meaning I was the nerd that got gamed on

Manny Queen

11:37 AM

> noob at vyxal definitely the worst solution

alephalpha

@Anush I think it is really closely related. Just let a=l, b=m+1, and take the s'th item in the output of that question.

Manny Queen

@lyxal there's also a 10 byte SBCS solution in the explanation

Anush

@alephalpha intriguing... let me see if I can get one of my example answers from it

lyxal

> I was the nerd that got gamed on

pxeger

Anyone know if/how I can limit a search to only posts by users other than me?

lyxal

11:39 AM

@MannyQueen although by the looks of things, it should actually be 11

actually no it should be 12

alephalpha

@Anush I modified the top Octave answer from that question: Try it online!

lyxal

@lyxal because I can only assume they tested it on the online interpreter which interprets something like 10,110 as [10, 110] instead of "10,110", hence the lack of splitting on commas and casting to int

so I'm not the nerd that got gamed on after all

Manny Queen

given that it passed the automatic testing, i assume that's how their offline interpreter is set up too

Anush

@alephalpha wow. Could you kindly modify tio.run/##K6gsycjPM/qfZhvzPycxNyklUSFRJ8mqKDWlNDlVI680t6BSLzk/… please. I find that easier to read

lyxal

@MannyQueen lol it is

⌐⌊∑:bṅ‛is$WṄ fails even though it works when explicitly given a string

I can only imagine that'd screw up some submissions lol

alephalpha

11:53 AM

@Anush Try it online!

Anush

:59561780 wow again. Thanks so much even though you killed my question. I never would have guessed they were solving the same problem

lyxal

ah yes thank you sympy for being too precise

sympy.Rational(-72.81818181818181)

one would think it'd return -801/11

but instead it returns -1281031001961565/17592186044416

(alternatively, 7281818181818181/100000000000000)

Anush

@alephalpha can you explain why they are the same problem?

@lyxal sympy needs thousands of hours of work to make it any good

lyxal

@Anush or I could just use sympy.nsimplify

Anush

@lyxal yes but it should really try to be helpful

alephalpha

12:29 PM

@Anush A b-sided die takes value in the range 1,2,...,b. That question says rolling it a times and summing the results. It asks for a frequency distribution, but that is basically asking how many ways we can get a sum.

Neil

12:40 PM

@Bubbler you are due for execution some time this week. you will not be warned on which day the execution will happen; it will come as a complete surprise.

lyxal

@Neil hey I remember watching a video on that once

the idea is that no matter how much you try to think logically, it'll still come as a surprise

Anush

@alephalpha I love how many votes and answers it got

@alephalpha I have an alternative question in mind to start iterating from the X'th step

Neil

@lyxal right, the point is that you shouldn't assume the correctness of the examiner

certainly whenever I solve puzzles I never assume anything about the actual number of solutions, even though it nearly always turns out to be 1 in the end

pxeger

1:15 PM

Who decided that cos(3.14 degrees) ≈ -cos(3.14 radians)

2

this has been confusing me for at least 2 minutes

Adám

@pxeger Try 3.1974 instead of 3.14

pxeger

@Adám the joy...

Redwolf Programs

2:26 PM

Morning!

What do y'all think about going ahead and doing the array merge thing? It's been a few days, and there isn't a single vote supporting not doing it

Aaroneous Miller

I don't see any reason not to, personally

Redwolf Programs

@mods can we haz 11

Fmbalbuena

3:10 PM

14

Q: Write a Whitespace Interpreter

Challenge: Your challenge is to write an interpreter for Whitespace. Given a string consisting of spaces, tabs, newlines, and potential other characters, as well as possible inputs for the Whitespace program itself, output the result of the given Whitespace program. Here an overview of the Whites...

Try this, None of new answers are written.

to get 50 rep

hi @AaroneousMiller

yo @Anush

how things?

pretty good, how bout you?

Anush

3:26 PM

sad.. my sandbox question which I thought was great turns out to have been answered by a question that looks completely different

Aaroneous Miller

oof

Anush

I have a new version in mind.. the problem is fitting it into one of our tags

Aaroneous Miller

3:59 PM

That moment when a problem was probably caused by x or y but couldn't possibly have been caused by z so you debug it and find that the problem was caused by z.

4

*surprised pikachu*

DLosc

@lyxal Yes (but it's not super capable yet)

Redwolf Programs

4:20 PM

I finished SMB3!

Ooh HBL looks cool

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms Thanks! I've had the core idea of a half-byte Lisp for a while, but playing with Risky gave me some specific inspiration to implement it.

hyper-neutrino

4:45 PM

@RedwolfPrograms just ping me lol

so just to confirm, we are synonymizing array-manipulation → array and merging?

also there's literally a button to reverse the direction of a synonym lol

Redwolf Programs

@hyper-neutrino Yep

Yay, it looks like it worked

hyper-neutrino

done; it'll take a bit for everything to finish updating but all questions are retagged

Luis Mendo

We are featured in this video

6

hyper-neutrino

is stringifying the function considered an improper quine (specifically, this JS answer)

pxeger

5:00 PM

I think it obviously is, but the precedent seems to be no (because "quines only prohibit reading the source file" - whatever that logic is???)

In case you can't tell, this pisses me off (because I use a language where you can't stringify a function)

hyper-neutrino

well, I don't make the rules ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ in case I've never mentioned it before handling "invalid answer" flags is my second least favorite thing as a mod, only overtaken by handling "non-competitive answer" flags

pxeger

I'm gonna make a meta post

oh, actually:

15

Q: Is a quine that reads a function's source a cheating quine?

So, in the last couple months, I have seen several (especially JavaScript) quines told that they are cheating because they stringify a function. Accordingly, I thought that was the standard - it's reading its source, of course it's cheating. Wikipedia's section on cheating quines includes the fo...

discussion answers quine

Mayube

@LuisMendo there's even somebody in the comments confused about Jelly's custom code page, in true CGCC fashion

pxeger

@pxeger conveniently contradictory votes on the answers: Yes @ +23/-5; Yes @ +23/-10; No @ +28/-15

thejonymyster

5:27 PM

i like this comment:
> IMHO we should allow or disallow evaluating a function/string/etc. as code, rather than simply disallowing reading a function's source.

are there any cases where "evaluating a string as code" is ambiguous?

Aaroneous Miller

@thejonymyster Fungoid quines, where the trick is often to make a string of all of the code, then execute that same code to print everything. It could be argued both ways with regards whether or not that is evaluating a string as code.

thejonymyster

how do you make a string of your code?

oh, wait i see

Aaroneous Miller

example

thejonymyster

well i cant read that but i imagine the logic is "start quote, go through section A, end quote, go through section A"

Aaroneous Miller

pretty much

thejonymyster

5:34 PM

i gtg and i know you said it could be argued both ways but id reason that its not cheating since fungoid languages are about how the code overlaps so like... if you were to rewrite the code as 1d, itd never try to refer to the code in an illegal way

like this is the same block of code acting as both a string and a function, not having it be a string and then executing it as a function

wait now i disagree with myself since you could say any strings count as stringifying code, i see

ok byee

Aaroneous Miller

o/

Luis Mendo

@Mayube Haha, yes, I saw

Redwolf Programs

6:24 PM

@hyper-neutrino Rules are that it is an improper quine here

15

Q: Is a quine that reads a function's source a cheating quine?

So, in the last couple months, I have seen several (especially JavaScript) quines told that they are cheating because they stringify a function. Accordingly, I thought that was the standard - it's reading its source, of course it's cheating. Wikipedia's section on cheating quines includes the fo...

discussion answers quine

Oh I see I've been ninja'd lol

hyper-neutrino

aight, thanks

Redwolf Programs

6:36 PM

I love how caird's autocorrect (presumably) turned "advent calendar" into "advantage calendar" lol

@Bubbler Ideally, I would like it to be a daily event, similar to advantage calendars. That said, this is much more of a "should we have a a Christmas event?" post, so any suggestion is ok — caird coinheringaahing 11 hours ago

Fmbalbuena

7:05 PM

@lyxal Hey, Is your name inspired by Vyxal?

Redwolf Programs

lol

Mayube

should.... should I tell him?

Unrelated String

no

Redwolf Programs

Lyxal made Vyxal, it's named after him :p

Fmbalbuena

Oh

hyper-neutrino

7:07 PM

lol

Fmbalbuena

lyxal but the first char is encoded by ROT-10

Neil

7:47 PM

how about a new definition? A quine can't use the same byte as both code and data

this would conveniently also rule out all of those pesky eval-based quines too

Redwolf Programs

Seems kind of unobservable though

emanresu A

Yeah, and what's the difference between evaluation and manual running?

s=code, eval(s) vs s=code, code

Mayube

also what about languages that don't distinguish between code and data?

How do you make that distinction in a brainfuck quine, for example?

emanresu A

^

o/

Aaroneous Miller

8:13 PM

@Mayube That also rules out the Fungoid quines I was mentioning earlier.

Redwolf Programs

If I'm using {* ... *} for block comments, should I use {** ... **} for non-parsing block comments, or something else?

(non-parsing block comments will be ones that ignore string literals, single line comments, nested block comments, etc., while normal block comments will parse those for nesting purposes)

Or should I reverse it and make the parsing/nesting block comments use the ** notation

Or maybe pick a better single character instead of a double *

I wish {- wasn't ambiguous

Redwolf Programs

8:34 PM

CMQ: Opinions on ++ and --? Are they worth keeping in a higher level practical language?

Same with bitwise operators. I'm planning on just having them as importable functions.

pxeger

@RedwolfPrograms only as statements

@RedwolfPrograms binary bitwise operators, yes. Invert, nope

Redwolf Programs

@pxeger Idk, that takes half the point away from them

pxeger

or, at least, keep only the postfix ones then?

Redwolf Programs

That might be a good idea

pxeger

I've changed my mind

delete them entirely

Redwolf Programs

8:39 PM

I guess there'll always be the option of array[i += 1], which is about as good

Or, in my language, array[i+: 1]

pxeger

really? : for assignment?

I understand it's unmathematical because of reassignment, but it's just too wrong for existing programmers

Redwolf Programs

It's mostly going to be a language for personal use, and I'm a fan of :

= is too yellow

pxeger

you're too yellow

Redwolf

Redwolf Programs

The fact that "red" is yellow is quite annoying, yeah

I've just written what might be the least cursed parser (or at least, part of a parser) I've ever written

I still need to do the actual parsing part, but so far everything is clean, organized, and extensible, which is shocking given that I'm the one who made it

Ash's parser was so hard to debug and add features to that it was a big part of why I stopped development on it lol

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms The month leading up to Christmas is all about getting the upper hand

Redwolf Programs

8:49 PM

:p

Mayube

@RedwolfPrograms Python does fine without them

Redwolf Programs

yeah, but it's fun to abuse ++ and -- in really weird ways

There're a lot fewer of those without pointer manipulation though I guess

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms Both of them are useless. Negating twice does nothing ;-)

pxeger

lol

Redwolf Programs

9:31 PM

Hmm, currently ( ... ) and { ... } are identical in my language

Since blocks evaluate to the result of their last statement

Should I give one of those two a distinct meaning?

Anush

Is s is a list, what is {}.fromkeys(s) ?

Redwolf Programs

Oh, I've just realized { ... } will be ambiguous since objects/dictionaries would use the same syntax

Anush

I am trying to understand sorted({}.fromkeys(s),key=s.count,reverse=1)

Mayube

@Anush fromkeys(s) creates a dictionary with a key for each item in s

it's a static class member of dict, but in python you can call static members from an instance, and {} is an empty dict and shorter than dict

So for example {}.fromkeys(['a', 'b', 'c']) will produce {'a': None, 'b': None, 'c': None}

Anush

Ok. Then when you sort a dict you only get the keys it seems

That’s not very obvious to me

Redwolf Programs

9:46 PM

Okay, I'm trying to figure out how to reduce the ambiguity between code blocks and dictionary literals in my language

They both use { ... } at the moment

I guess I could just have a small number of places where it's assumed to be a code block, like most languages do, but that creates annoying issues like the x => ({y: x}) in JS if you're mapping to an object

I suppose I'm just going to have get rid of one of those two purposes for it entirely :/

Not sure if I'd rather keep code blocks or object literals

Anush

@alephalpha hi.

Aaroneous Miller

I've started working on my Whitespace interpreter in Vim. So far I have a few of the simpler commands implemented, though there's no parsing yet. Hopefully I can finish before the bounty is done. I think it's fun having a time limit like that to work on it. :)

lyxal

10:19 PM

@Fmbalbuena redwolf is right. I was that uncreative that I just named the esolang a tiny bit differently to my own username which I got from keyboard mashing.

DLosc

10:38 PM

@RedwolfPrograms Yes. It's a minor thing, but it always bothers me to have to write x += 1 in Python.

@RedwolfPrograms Yesss ^_^ Now tell me you're also using = for equality checking instead of ==

lyxal

10:52 PM

@RedwolfPrograms imagine using ascii for variable assignment

funnyNumber ← 69 would be cooler

Wezl programs redwolf

@RedwolfPrograms if code blocks already work as expressions, you could support (stmt; stmt; stmt;) instead of {stmt; stmt; stmt;}

also yes that looks weird

New Posts

0

Q: How would I ignore an input not in my list?

Have this program that allows the user to remove and add classes into a courselist until there are only 5 classes, but I'm having problems with a specific situation. I want to make it so that when the courselist has the classes "English", "Math", and "Science", if I type "englis", "Math", and "Sc...

python

Wezl programs redwolf

even better, just don't support expression nesting, and make (key: value, key1: value1) the object/dict syntax

DLosc

11:11 PM

@lyxal I do prefer ← in theory, but for a practical language IMO it's always best to stick to printable ASCII + newlines. Sometimes you need to write code in Notepad using a standard English keyboard layout.

Wezl programs redwolf

I like : a lot

Redwolf Programs

11:34 PM

@DLosc Pip is a major inspiration for the language's assignment operator variants, like ::

I won't be using = for equality, mostly because == is very clearly equality, whereas = could be confusing for people used to using it for assignment (aka me :p)

Bubbler

Laughs in J

dyadic = is equality, =. and =: are local and global assignments

and monadic = has some other different meaning that is deprecated in latest version

DLosc

11:53 PM

In QBasic, = is assignment if it's in a statement by itself like x = 5, and it's comparison if it's in an expression like WHILE x = 5. This system is almost perfect IMO, but the one drawback is that you can't do multiple assignments like x = y = 5 (instead of y <- 5, x <- 5 it's interpreted as x <- (y == 5)).

Oh hey, LYAL is an hour earlier this week. (Spot the US resident.)

Are we doing /// this time?

outersection

Transcript for