English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Well, I think the comment is harmless and if I were a mod, I would not delete it. But if a mod deletes it and I wrote it, I am fine with that too. QED.

Cerberus

@Sim: That's three against one.

simchona

@Cerberus Fine, then put it back.

It can't be undeleted.

Yannis Rizos

@Robusto The guidelines for commenting are clearly documented here. Comments are only meant for requesting clarifications or providing constructive criticism, every other comment can be removed at any time.

user19161

12:09 AM

@Cerberus I think numbers don't really matter in any argument.

Robusto

This is the tiniest amount of power I have ever seen go to anybody's head.

4

Mitch

@Robusto are you saying Sleeping Beauty ... = ....

Jesus?

Cerberus

@simchona OK, thanks.

Robusto

@YannisRizos Well, you'd better get busy deleting all the humorous comments from SO then. I think you're over a million by now.

5

Cerberus

@Robusto Stop whining and celebrate your victory, put it back.

@YannisRizos Have you ever looked at our site?

user19161

12:10 AM

@YannisRizos Sure, but guidelines are just guidelines, and they are incomplete. I am not siding anyone here, just making a related statement.

Cerberus

The comments in particular?

We have traditions. We like it this way, as long as comments don't get in the way or disturb.

Mitch

@ΜετάEd I didn't see a story about splitting babies, or anything babies in the second ink (the one about Elisha and Aram and the axe and stuff.

Yannis Rizos

@Cerberus I can understand that, what I can't understand is the overreaction to removing a joke comment.

user19161

Hello @mana! So happy to see you. Whee!

KitFox

Am I needed here?

Did I miss a flag?

What are these blues doing here?

simchona

12:12 AM

@KitFox There's a synopsis in the Teachers' Lounge

Cerberus

@YannisRizos We don't want censorship, especially not by a newly elected moderator.

Hey Kit!

user19161

There is a little friction going on here, everyone calm down please.

simchona

@Cerberus It was a joke, not censorship

Cerberus

I don't mean to say that Sim isn't doing a good job, she's doing fine; I just don't want her to change the way this site has always been moderated all of a sudden.

Yannis Rizos

@Cerberus Censorship? Come on... ;)

Cerberus

12:14 AM

@YannisRizos Removing stuff that we like, then.

Wait, who has suspended Rob??

That is not fair!

Yannis Rizos

@Cerberus Hm... ELU and SE in general is not a place for stuff that you like, it's a community with a set of very well defined rules & guidelines. Comments are third class citizens, ephemeral by nature, and you'll have to get used to them disappearing when they don't add anything to the discussion.

Cerberus

Stop this madness!

@YannisRizos I repeat, have you ever looked at our comments?

It is a place for stuff that we like. Why do you think we are here?

user19161

@Cerberus If I were a mod, I would not suspend Rob, but if I said those things and I were suspended, I am fine too. QED.

Cerberus

@YannisRizos That comment was not bothering anyone.

simchona

@Cerberus It was an auto-suspension for the offensive comment. And no, I didn't do it.

Cerberus

12:16 AM

Offensive?

Did I miss that?

user19161

It probably collected enough flags or something.

user19161

I know that one is not enough.

Cerberus

Which comment was this?

user19161

"You are a shit moderator"?

Cerberus

Oh, come on, that was censored??

Jesus.

user19161

12:18 AM

I think everyone needs to calm down right now.

Cerberus

I'm just getting started.

Yannis Rizos

@Cerberus ;P

user19161

Also, try to look at everything in 9000 ways.

Cerberus

"ELU and SE in general is not a place for stuff that you like" — I can't believe Yannis said that.

user19161

@Cerberus Where?

Cerberus

12:25 AM

Look at the stars. That's what my starred line replied to.

user19161

Or maybe another mod suspended Rob, but never mind.

Cerberus

It probably wasn't Yannis that did that.

user19161

Anyway, let's move on.

Cerberus

The moderators are probably all discussing this.

I'm glad I was there.

user19161

Well, there isn't much to discuss really. Too localized!

Cerberus

12:29 AM

Okay, I'm always here...

I was glad, then.

user19161

This is just like a one-off incident.

Cerberus

Too localised indeed.

Let's hope so.

Let's hope this won't happen again.

user19161

I came at the exact moment too, hehe.

user19161

It might happen now and then, but it's fine.

user19161

It's not like something that ruins your life.

Cerberus

12:32 AM

What if this makes Rob leave the site?

And other people?

Yannis Rizos

@Cerberus What I meant to say with that is that popularity alone is not an argument. You liked the comment, and I'm not saying I disliked it, but from a mod's perspective it was pointless and the reaction to its deletion was completely over the top. If you wish, you could start a Meta discussion on comments in general, but throwing stuff like "censorship" around for a deleted comment is not constructive in any way.

Cerberus

@YannisRizos I revised my designation of the deletion at your request.

user19161

Oh dear, now this room will have 9000 mods...

Cerberus

@YannisRizos And popularity is an argument in the sense that what everybody does here is the norm, as long as it doesn't hinder the operation of the site. I can understand culling comments in a longer thread, and/or after some time has passed. But everybody here posts such comments and thinks they're OK, so I don't like it at all when someone tries to break our Ways.

Surely you will agree that that comment couldn't have bothered anyone?

Jin

hello everyone

Cerberus

12:36 AM

Hi!

The site is looking pretty as always.

Under the thunder clouds, that is.

Hehe.

Yannis Rizos

@Cerberus I don't know if that particular comment would have bothered anyone, what I can tell you is that on Programmers where I'm a moderator joke comments are routinely flagged as not constructive and some times even as rude / offensive. From my experience (in another community) light-hearted jokes are sometimes mistaken for sarcasm, and of course not everyone's sense of humour is the same.

Cerberus

@YannisRizos This is English.

user19161

OK, I will leave you kids to this discussion...

Cerberus

How does it help me to know that Programmers works in a way that nobody here wants?

Yannis Rizos

@Cerberus How do you know that nobody here wants that?

Cerberus

12:40 AM

Sorry if I sound confrontational, but I really don't like this authoritarian approach at all, of deleting comments that are normally OK.

@YannisRizos Because everybody does it, and people say they like it in chat, although not always in so many words.

People only complain about threads that are too long and pointless, or rude.

user19161

@mana is ignoring me. pouts

Mana

@WillHunting I'm not ignoring you, ah!!!!!!

Yannis Rizos

@Cerberus Perhaps, which is why I've already mentioned Meta. The network's approach to comments is that they should be deleted if they don't add to the discussion in a constructive manner, and that includes jokes. If the ELU community wants a different, perhaps more relaxed approach then Meta is the correct venue for the discussion.

Mana

@YannisRizos weirdly enough, I thought it was the opposite, given I've seen jokes on all the other networks on the site.

user19161

Jokes are all over SE if you have not realized.

Mana

12:43 AM

but yeah, come to think of it, that is one of the deletion reasons.

Yannis Rizos

@Mana Remember, we aren't a perfect model of our guidelines ;)

user19161

Jokes are different from non-constructive comments. The latter refers to non-jokes.

user19161

At least, this is my feel of the matter.

user19161

Also, in the same way they say discussion in X chat room should be limited to X.

user19161

But only a fraction of messages in chat are about X.

user19161

12:46 AM

As long as it does not hurt anyone, I think such things are good for building the community.

Cerberus

@YannisRizos That is already the status quo. Why else do you think we are so unhappy with this? We're just the people that happen to be in the room now.

user19161

I would not want to hang out on a dull boring site.

Cerberus

@Mana Exactly!

Mana

@Cerberus ahh, no, I didn't mean it like that. The site's community should decide on the rules of the site. If there's a disagreement between the community and the moderators, then that calls for a meta-topic discussing what the site policy is IMO.

simchona

I want to make an apology to @Robusto. I behaved like a spoiled child, and fought to defend my actions instead of listening. In the process, I offended you and didn't treat you with a modicum of respect. For this, I really am sorry. I should have been far more constructive in voicing my opinions about your comment, during which we could have come to a consensus rather than my incorrect and unilateral decision.

8

@Robusto If you would still like to post the comment, I will take no further actions on it. The community can handle itself from here.

user19161

12:48 AM

@simchona Well, in fairness, I don't think you went overboard. I can understand why you chose to delete it.

Yannis Rizos

@WillHunting Oh, come on, EL&U is amazing even without the jokes ;)

Cerberus

@Mana I do not believe there is much disagreement: my impression is that most people are happy with the status quo—until today.

simchona

And, to all: I'm sorry that this turned into a giant brouhaha.

user19161

@YannisRizos Of course, it is amazing because of my very presence! :-)

Yannis Rizos

@simchona No worries, we were just bored ;)

Cerberus

12:51 AM

@simchona Thanks.

simchona

@Cerberus , @Mana suggested putting up a post on Meta, if you'd like to get more community say on this.

tchrist

Jul 30 at 19:22, by RegDwight АΑA

So is @Rob still with us? Or have we flagged the shit out of him again?

user19161

@tchrist It's true that Rob probably got more suspensions than any regulars in this chat.

Cerberus

@simchona I'd personally rather wait until someone who has a problem with funny comments addresses this, or I think it just isn't an issue.

user19161

@tchrist I was suspended once too for saying "Dick is my neighbour and a pussy is a cat".

simchona

12:53 AM

@Cerberus Ok. I will say that my personal opinion of joke comments is low, but in the future I will bring them up in here before deleting.

Cerberus

@WillHunting I don't know, I have seen various other suspensions. None of myself, I think, though.

tchrist

@WillHunting And now you’ve said it again, alas. The walls will come crashing down.

Dead.

user19161

@tchrist Come on, a suspension once in a while is fun too.

Cerberus

@simchona If they are in a cluttered thread, and not brilliantly, extremely funny, I think most of us are fine with your deleting them.

tchrist

Starfisher.

simchona

12:54 AM

@Cerberus Noted.

Cerberus

I think each comment should just be judged individually.

And this one seemed perfectly harmless.

So were just trying to be consistent, which in itself is admirable...but I just don't think that is always necessary or the best approach.

user19161

@tchrist The worst flag I have ever seen is when Gigili said "I am awesome like that" in the Islam room. I don't know why that got flagged.

tchrist

@sim Do you, um, like Amy Winehouse, or did somebody else flag it to your notice?

simchona

@tchrist I was on the post, didn't think it added anything, and deleted it.

Mana

@WillHunting Gnomeslice saying "Shut up." to me jokingly, and having it get approved, was probably worse.

simchona

12:57 AM

@Mana Arqade always throws the most flags

user19161

@Mana Even if he meant it truly, that does not warrant a suspension either.

tchrist

@simchona It’s your Marshal nature.

user19161

And yes, gnome slice got flagged the most I observed.

tchrist

@WillHunting Are girls allowed there?

user19161

@tchrist Yes. But I think there are people on very different wavelengths there.

user19161

1:00 AM

In life, it is difficult to judge a person's intentions from his speech. In chat, it is even more difficult.

tchrist

@WillHunting We don't see many flags thrown here.

user19161

@tchrist Well, you have not been in this chat for that long!

tchrist

Be that as it may.

Meanwhile, our mean score has gone from 0 to 2 in as many days.

Perhaps that should be our unmean score.

Site                                 N    Sum Min  Max    Mean  Median  Stdev  Mode
=======================================================================================
English_Language_and_Usage          50      8  -5   14    0.16  -0.5    3.38    9 × -2
English_Language_and_Usage          50     20  -6   14    0.40   0.0    3.59    9 × 0
English_Language_and_Usage          50     44  -6   14    0.88   0.0    3.62   11 × 0
English_Language_and_Usage          50     49  -6   14    0.98   0.0    3.52   12 × 0

user19161

@tchrist Mean of what?

tchrist

@WillHunting The 50 newest questions’ scores.

user19161

1:04 AM

When the mean increases, the unmeanness increases. QED.

Cerberus

1:24 AM

Oh, dear, @WillHunting, you have a challenger!

Hello @Will

Does this ping WillHunting too?

Will

@Cerberus hi :)

Cerberus

Ah, so you were pinged correctly. Welcome.

Will

Thanks!

Mahnax

1:59 AM

@Cerberus I'm not sure—I don't use my iPod for e-mail, and I don't own an iPad.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Hmm yeah, turns out it was probably only in German, where some stupid Motorola patent (I think) blocked it for Apple.

Mahnax

@Cerberus OK.

Cerberus

Apple and Samsung and Google should form a pact to stop patent trolling, all of them!

They're all the losers in this game.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Google does not patent troll

anyway. @Cerb, do you speak German?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 True, except possibly through Motorola. But they do have all sorts of patents, so they could be an important player in this pact.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, though badly.

What do you need?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:04 AM

@Cerberus They've launched their first through-motorola lawsuit recently, and it's retaliatory in nature.

Cerberus

Yes, that's what I meant.

Mahnax

Tonight at work, my coworkers and I gained a small victory.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus "We have food allergies", "We are allergic to nuts, peanuts, and peas"

Cerberus

@Mahnax Oh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, it's not trollish in nature. They're suing Apple in order to try to get Apple to stop suing Android vendors.

Mahnax

2:05 AM

@Cerberus The shift manager commonly known as "princess" in certain circles got her ass verbally handed to her by the real manager.

'twas a sight to see.

Mitch

@Mahnax what for? abuse of authority?

Mahnax

@Mitch Pretty much.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I threw that at G. Translate, and the result looked good. I checked a few things:

> Wir haben Nahrungsmittelallergien. Wir sind allergisch gegen Nüsse, Erdnüsse, und Erbsen.

@Mahnax Haha, great!

Mahnax

@Cerberus I certainly think so.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, well, they do stoop to the same level as their enemy.

Mitch

2:08 AM

@Cerberus but is that how they are 'actually said?

Cerberus

@Mahnax She will be more reasonable from now on I hope?

Mitch

@Mahnax isn't there a movie out now about uncomfortable abuse of power at a food establishment?

Mahnax

@Cerberus I would think so.

@Mitch Um, I have no idea.

Cerberus

@Mitch It sounds good to me; but I'm not a perfect judge. I would mark it as correct if one of my pupils were to write it like that.

Mahnax

Although I am getting better with movies. I now have a favourite director, and I recognize more actors, too.

Cerberus

2:09 AM

The syntax would be the same in Dutch. I checked "allergisch gegen", which is correct.

All the rest looks correct to me too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Thanks

@Cerberus I don't think it's fair to say that they are "stooping to the same level as their enemy" here. If a gunman opens fire in a crowded room, the police are not "stooping" when they shoot him. Thus far it appears as if Google is merely trying to stop Apple's rampage.

Mahnax

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm not saying it is necessarily bad; I haven't made up my mind yet. But it is still a bit trollish in some way, don't you think? In that it wouldn't be completely unreasonable to say Google is not entirely uninvolved.

@Mahnax Haha wtf.

Mitch

@Mahnax Compliance

imdb.com/title/tt1971352

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, I'd say Google is involved, but I wouldn't call it trollish. They have waited a long time for this, yet have seen Android vendors lose to Apple too much. So they have to act or else risk getting locked out of the market.

Mahnax

2:16 AM

@Mitch Sounds like a silly movie.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am not under the impression that it helps much? But it may do so in the future.

The game has not been played out yet.

Mitch

I havent seen it or plan to. but it's a 'thought' movie. plays with your head. no car chase. naked ladies but tasteful.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, they only just filed their first lawsuit a few days ago

Mitch

but the keywords 'abuse of authority' and 'fast food' and 'very recent' picked it up.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But Motorola already has some stuff going on from before Google, haven't they?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:21 AM

@Cerberus I don't know. And even if they did, it wouldn't count as Google being trollish.

I think Motorola did have lawsuits going on in the past. However, most mobile companies lawsuits typically amounted to protracted patent royalty negotiations. Apple is changing the game by actually refusing to license patents and by demanding damages and injunctions.

Frankly, I don't see how they can win this game

Surely there are enough patents they don't own that the iphone/ipad infringe that they can't hope to defeat them all.

Cerberus

Yes.

I think Apple is going in full force now because it is losing market share.

Mahnax

Perhaps this is relevant:

Cerberus

It knows it can't win on the marketplace.

@Mahnax Haha, what?

Are those Linux birds?

Mitch

wow on the comment deletion spat. nobody was doing anything terrible (the joke was totally inoffensive, but very deletable, but why bother deleting, but then why bother complaining about the deletion, and an over the top (but sincere) apology).

Mahnax

@Cerberus They are seagulls.

Mitch

2:28 AM

@Cerberus 'Mine- uh' birds.

From 'Finding Nemo'

Mahnax

From Finding Nemo, I think.

Jinx.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Oh, I hate those, sorry.

Mitch

all they say is 'mine, mine, mine'

Mahnax

@Cerberus Me too.

Cerberus

So why do Apple's lawyers all caw caw?

Mahnax

2:28 AM

It's supposed to be a joke.

Cerberus

@Mitch Ohh...

Mitch

@Cerberus yeah...kinda gamey.

Cerberus

I actually saw that film.

But I don't remember.

Mitch

@Cerberus That's funny.

(there was a character, Dory, in the movie that had no long term memory.)

Cerberus

Oh shi...

I don't want to be Dory!

That's not a cool name.

Mahnax

2:30 AM

Too bad.

Mitch

we all will eventually.

Mahnax

Official statement: Cerberus == Dory.

4

@moderators Please pin this ^

Mitch

Dory was funny at least.

Cerberus

@Mitch I guess it was not a huge deal to begin with. It spiralled out of control a bit.

Mahnax

She was great.

Mitch

2:31 AM

best part of a great movie?

Cerberus

Hmm she looks familiar.

Mitch

maybe that's too far.

Cerberus

I was looking at pictures.

Mitch

@Cerberus it's what she says that's funny.

like...

Cerberus

@Mahnax Nooo...

Good thing I will have forgotten tomorrow.

Mahnax

2:32 AM

@Cerberus Oh, you remembered? That's impressive.

Mitch

(when stuck in a submarine when a shark is about to attack) oh look there's a hatch that's labeled (and she pronounces it ehs kuh pay). It's spelled just like 'Escape')

Cerberus

@Mahnax I know right!!

Mahnax

@Cerberus Irregardless.

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha that is actually funny.

I'm chuckling now.

Mitch

even when explained!

Cerberus

2:33 AM

@Mahnax Ahhhh!

@Mitch Yes, I was surprised myself.

Mahnax

@Cerberus You will never forget your hatred for irregardless. Irregardless, you are still Dory. QED.

Cerberus

@Mitch Star.

@Mahnax Oh, that is an instinct.

Mitch

then there's...well, I've..uh... forgotten.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The funny thing about Apple is that their products are supposed to be luxury products. They're supposed to be niche. If EVERYONE has one, it isn't cool. So with that approach how can they expect to control the market?

Cerberus

2:44 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's exactly what they are trying to do: pretending to make every buyer special.

There is a fundamental problem, of course.

But people are sheep, ish.

Look at Armani or something.

Or Louis Vuitton.

They overplayed their hands, in that they became too popular to be considered "exclusive" any more; and yet they are able to maintain their high prices.

They are just seen as vulgar now, as opposed to trendy/luxury a few decades ago.

So in the end that doesn't matter for profits.

At least sometimes it doesn't.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, Apple's biggest issue here is that they are heavily reliant on network effects. They need an ecosystem. Their devices have to be popular/profitable enough that developers want to target them. Yet they have to also maintain a strict enough control so that they lock in their users.

Cerberus

Paradoxical though it is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There are some similarities to fashion. But fashion has way less lock-in. There is no Louis Vuitton app store.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. It is a paradox, but they have pulled it off so far. Android's competition is not a problem for that approach.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So Apple needs to simultaneously be high-end AND popular.

Cerberus

2:48 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 True.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, high end in what sense? Price?

That is possible, apparently.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, once Android becomes popular enough, developers will shift their focus to Android first. And maybe never get around to iOS.

Cerberus

That is sort of true: we may be looking at a delay effect.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes, price, desirability, etc.

I mean, there are already lots of examples of developers that target Android first. Where I work we are developing on Android first.

Cerberus

Sure.

One thing to consider is that, because Apple stuff is twice expensive, users also spend more money on applications.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But there are still lots of iOS-only apps. That is changing. And once the pendulum has swung far enough, we're back to the situation where Apple was in the 80s and 90s.

@Cerberus Perhaps.

Cerberus

2:51 AM

So it is somewhat more profitable for developers, comparatively.

However, once Google enables paid applications in China...

I can't understand why they haven't done so yet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm not sure how far Google's official Android has penetrated China. China is full of unofficial android though.

Google had to withdraw quite a bit of its Chinese business.

Cerberus

All those—how many? 100 million?—Chinese Android users can't buy a single Android application.

Mahnax

Honestly, I want Apple to fall behind, way behind.

Cerberus

Why?

It is already falling behind btw.

In market share.

Mahnax

Maybe it'll motivate them to make something good again.

@Cerberus I know.

Cerberus

2:52 AM

OK.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Could be.

Mahnax

The last year has just been slightly modified versions of past things, sans the Retina MacBook.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Unless some day Apple decides to lower its prices.

You shouldn't forget how much some people see Apple as a brand like a fashion brand.

They just like the brand very much.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's not about lower prices though. It's about product innovation. Look at Android: so many vendors, so many different devices. It's a huge platform. They've achieved such huge penetration in such short time... it's unprecedented.

Cerberus

Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There are android TVs. Android media players. Android ebook readers. Android phones. Android cameras. Android tablets. Hell, NASA is using android devices in space for experiments.

Cerberus

2:55 AM

I just mean that Apple would be in a much better position to maintain market share if they lowered their prices drastically.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Android is a wildly successful platform. It represents the culmination of decades of ideas. But also, it thrives because different companies can use it for different things.

Nobody can make an iOS ebook reader or iOS stereo.

Except Apple.

Cerberus

No?

Oh, yes.

Mahnax

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But they won't.

Cerberus

That is true.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And despite all Apple's great ideas, their desire for control is what holds them back

Cerberus

2:56 AM

I am surprised they even got this far on their own, frankly.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Sheeple.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I'm not surprised.

The iPhone was, and is, a great product. It does have lots of innovation, if only in terms of product management, i.e. actually realizing the ideas in hardware form.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Well, their products aren't exactly bad, so I mean how were they able to make so many OK products all on their own?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean there were "smartphones" that could do almost all the iphone could do way before iphone. But iphone changed the game

I always thought that Sony should have made the iphone in 2004. They had all the pieces already.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Probably. The competition was Symbian and Windows Mobile, which I used until a month ago. That sucked.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:58 AM

They had phones. They had walkman/mp3s. They had video capabilities. They had PDAs (Clie, which ran PalmOS). They had portable gaming. They even had a music and movie library, which they could have licensed in an online store.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, not just symbian. PalmOS and Blackberry OS were big too.

Cerberus

Actually, there were all sorts of phones that were quite successful.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Microsoft had all the pieces too, really... or should have, but they lacked taste.

Cerberus

Yes, especially Blackberry was going very well.

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