The Nineteenth Byte

hyper-neutrino

00:01

@Adám oh, that seems cool. (i'm not gonna pretend i really understand that grammar, cuz i don't think any languages i know use it, but it's interesting)

Adám

Russian is maybe the most famous example because Russians tend to drop the copula in English: Mother Russia big beautiful country.

hyper-neutrino

oh wait i should in theory know what copular verbs are lol

DLosc

@Adám Not useful, but still fun. ^_^ Most of the world's writing systems got their start by shoehorning a sound system into a set of symbols that wasn't designed for it. It's interesting to play around with.

Adám

@hyper-neutrino are lol

hyper-neutrino

right. it just never occurred to me that there were copular verbs and like "normal" (?) verbs until i started learning japanese

Adám

00:06

@DLosc Well, my day-to-day language is a good example; German written with Aramaic letters.

DLosc

That's true! I didn't think about Yiddish.

hyper-neutrino

there are honestly a lot of things i didn't realize about both english and chinese grammar until i started learning french and japanese (respectively) just cuz i'd gotten used to them as a native speaker without really understanding it

Adám

Sometimes I feel kind of odd in now being truly fluent in any language. (Except APL.)

hyper-neutrino

sort of like how my friend didn't know the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs (even though he'd be able to identify if they were used improperly, of course) until i explained it to him when he started learning japanese, since it's something i think i learned from an english language textbook (since my parents got me those since their english isn't great) and wasn't actually taught in either english or french education at school

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino I thought I remembered that Mandarin could leave the copula out, but I was misremembering based on its use of stative verbs for things that require a copula in English. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copula_(linguistics)#Chinese

hyper-neutrino

00:09

@DLosc huh, TIL the term "stative verb". that's interesting though!

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Yep, that's a very common experience. I still have a textbook called "English Grammar for Students of Latin."

Adám

The whole grammar subject is crazy skewed in favour of Latin. All those terms and categories are great for describing Latin, but for most other languages, they fail more or less badly.

DLosc

Agreed.

hyper-neutrino

true

i think the question of whether mandarin is only SVO or if it can be SOV is still dependent on who you ask lol. could be misremembering that though

Adám

To a certain degree, IPA has a similar fault, being good at describing certain languages, but worse for others, and outright horrible for some (e.g. Danish).

Leaky Nun

00:13

@hyper-neutrino and the prefix part is that you add V to the beginning of a word to mean "and XXX"; e.g. MBVRK means "blessed", and VMBVRK means "and blessed"

@hyper-neutrino i would say it's (mainly) SVO to me

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino I used to live with an older lady who grew up in Germany. She could tell when something I said in German was wrong, but she couldn't explain why. When I tried using grammatical terms, even German grammatical terms, it didn't help at all. I assume she learned some of those terms in school, but it had been too long ago, and maybe some of the terms are different nowadays.

Adám

@LeakyNun It isn't that simple, but in this case, that's right.

Leaky Nun

no SOV construction comes to mind at the moment

Adám

(Also, darn, it is hard to read transliterated Hebrew!)

hyper-neutrino

the only thing close to SOV i can think of is <subj>把<obj><verb> but that's... not really the same thing

Leaky Nun

00:17

interesting

hyper-neutrino

@DLosc ah that's interesting. yeah, my friend can tell if things are wrong intuitively but can't really explain it - i can usually explain the grammar behind things or why it's wrong more easily, having learned it more so through textbooks and from the technical side since my parents pretty much only speak mandarin to me even now

user

@Adám Obviously, the only solution is for everyone to use Latin for everything

hyper-neutrino

there's also <obj>被<subj><verb> so honestly idk if it's even productive to describe that as "SOV" / "SVO" / "OSV". i'd consider mandarin SVO and it just has some other specific constructions

user

Does Mandarin give you freedom over where to place objects, subjects, and verbs?

hyper-neutrino

not really

Adám

00:20

@user I once started learning Latin using a book that attempted to treat Latin as any other living language rather than a boring dead one… Most existing Latin texts are rather technical.

@hyper-neutrino So Latin is clearly superior.

hyper-neutrino

i can't think of any way to put the verb before either the object or the subject

(except imperatives, i guess, but i don't count that)

Adám

Hebrew can accept lots of word orders. Especially if you use the subject marker.

DLosc

Then there's German, where you start with SOV, pull the verb to the front (but just the main part of it if it's a separable verb), and then pull one other phrase of your choice to the front before the verb. :P

user

@Adám Was it helpful?

Adám

I think so.

user

00:24

@Adám Maybe for poetry, but I don't see how this would help in other ways

Adám

@DLosc Eugh. At least Yiddish uses a more natural word order.

user

@DLosc Wait, I thought German put the verb at the very end

DLosc

@Adám I have a theory that some people learn languages better by an immersion-style approach, and others (like me) learn better by studying grammar.

user

That sounds like SVO/OVS with extra steps

DLosc

@user In subordinate clauses, they don't use the rearrangement steps, so yes.

user

00:26

Ah

Leaky Nun

@Adám LLPSI (Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata)?

DLosc

@user It's called V2

user

Interesting

Adám

@LeakyNun Yes, I think so!

Leaky Nun

why did you learn Latin?

Adám

00:31

Just general interest. I was studying with my father. He had regretted to skip the optional Latin course in school.

Leaky Nun

did you learn Greek as well?

Adám

No, that was also optional in my father's school, but we never got to that. I can read Greek fairly well, but I don't understand much (i.e. I know the alphabet and various Greek stems that are used in Greek loanwords).

It was a different time when he was educated. They had Danish, Hebrew, Swedish, Norwegian, English, German, and French, plus optionally Latin and Greek.

Leaky Nun

I thought it would be useful to learn Greek because it was a large part of Jewish culture (the LXX etc)

Adám

@LeakyNun There are quite a few Greek loanwords in Jewish Aramaic, but why would the LXX be relevant?

(E.g. one of the four recognised genders is androginus and the high court is called the sanhedrin.)

Leaky Nun

@Adám well I thought it would show that there were a lot of Jews who spoke Greek to the point that a Greek translation would be necessary

Hellenistic Judaism

Hellenistic Judaism was a form of Judaism in classical antiquity that combined Jewish religious tradition with elements of Greek culture. Until the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the early Muslim conquests of the eastern Mediterranean, the main centers of Hellenistic Judaism were Alexandria in Egypt and Antioch in Syria (now in southern Turkey), the two main Greek urban settlements of the Middle East and North Africa region, both founded at the end of the fourth century BCE in the wake of the conquests of Alexander the Great. Hellenistic Judaism also existed in Jerusalem during the Second...

Adám

00:43

@LeakyNun No no, that's a misunderstanding. The Jews always study the original language texts. We teach the children to read Hebrew before we teach them to read their daily spoken language. Ptolemy commanded the Jewish elders to translate the Torah to Greek for the Library of Alexandria.

Leaky Nun

I see

Adám

@LeakyNun This was strongly opposed at the time and ever since. We keep celebrating our cultural victory against Hellenisation to this very day.

Leaky Nun

oh

I wasn't aware

Adám

@LeakyNun During the holiday of Chanukkah, we add a section to our thrice daily prayer that includes:

> In the days of Mattisyahu son of Yochanan the High Priest the Chasmonean, and his sons, when the wicked Greek Kingdom rose up against Your nation Israel to make them forget Your Torah and to remove them from the laws of your will, …

Leaky Nun

interesting

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Draw me a circle

Huỳnh Trần Khanh

Hey The Nineteenth Byte. What do you think about this?

in The Lean-to, 8 hours ago, by Huỳnh Trần Khanh

Could Lean be used in proof-golf challenges? Or would that be problematic?

After a short discussion, I think this would be better.

in The Lean-to, 8 mins ago, by Huỳnh Trần Khanh

@user We should whitelist theorem proving languages that are known to be sound and widely used. If the community objects to this approach, maybe we should create a tag for Lean challenges specifically perhaps? On second thought, maybe a tag for Lean challenges would be better. Because the statement has to be formalized, or specified in the ITP language too.

New Posts

01:54

0

Q: Golf Challenge: Create a Formatted Multiplication Table

Your task is to create a good multiplication table for others to use. Given an integer \$n\$, generate a multiplication table that displays products up to \$n×n\$. You should start with \$2×2\$ as 1 times any number is itself and that is reflected in the row/column indices. Scientific notation an...

code-golf

New Posts

03:41

0

Q: Golfing Challenges for Interactive Theorem Provers

Lean is now the Language of the Month. Yay! But... Lean is a theorem proving language. It is also a general purpose, Turing complete1 programming language too but I mean... Lean isn't exactly better than other languages on that front wrt code golf. On the Lean Zulip chat, sometimes users compete ...

discussion

nrgmsbki4spot1

08:11

Is it really a good idea that I post cops&robbers posts in a language that nobody cares, like CLC-INTERCAL? Won't I ruin the games?

pxeger

08:26

@nrgmsbki4spot1 I'm assuming by "post" you mean answer. I don't think it would ruin the game - worst case scenario, everyone just ignores your post

pVC aecidiospore adduced

How do I change the fonts on the browser in android

chrome

Bubbler

08:42

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced google "android chrome change font"

Seriously, why don't y'all google or duckduckgo or whatever before asking in chat

pxeger

10:27

how to choose a project name: git init $(tr -dc a-z < /dev/urandom | head -c4)

lyxal

12:01

Thank you state for imposing daylight saving on us

very cool /s

Adám

@lyxal Wait, now?

lyxal

@Adám earlier this morning

I just forgot to make a sarcastic comment on having to put our clocks forward earlier today

for context, it's the second month of spring in the southern hemisphere

and it doesn't end until April next year

Adám

I didn't even realise any southern states has DST. I made a false statement in my latest webinar then.

IMHO, everyone should just switch to UTC and deal with venues having odd-looking hours of operation.

lyxal

@Adám 3 states/territories here don't (Western Australia, Northern Territory and Queensland), all the others (New South Wales [yay /s], Tasmania, Victoria, Southern Australia and the ACT [duh]) do

@lyxal I say duh on the ACT because the ACT is pretty much contained within New South Wales

it's weird because for the last few weeks, the available hours of sunlight have been exactly the same as they were today (as in, you'd have sunlight during the same hours today as you would yesterday if there wasn't DST today). Yet, you see multitudes of people out at 6pm today, and barely anyone at 5pm yesterday afternoon despite the fact that the sun levels were the same

Adám

12:17

@lyxal How ironic

lyxal

@Adám that's an old map

Western Australia got rid of DST a few years ago or so

okay nvm I thought it was highlighting places with DST

Adám

@lyxal That is not a map of DST, that is a map of where DST has potential to cause INCREASED energy usage.

lyxal

Well because of DST making everything an hour later, it's time for me to leave for sleep

Because I want to get used to the DST sleep grind while there's still little consequence (haha online uni goes brrr)

/o/

(I stole two of the same arm type tonight if you're wondering ;p)

Adám

CMP: How is this for a challenge? Given a filename on a a case-preserving OS and filesystem, return the proper filename. (Obviously, your code has to run on Windows and/or MacOS.)

pxeger

"case-preserving", meaning "case-insensitive but case-preserving"?

Adám

12:30

Yes.

Hm, actually, this could work for fully case-sensitive systems too, but would probably be harder to implement.

Neil

@Adám Batch, 9 bytes: @dir/b %1

Adám

@Neil Wasn't a CMC, but yeah, I didn't even realise that'd work, which means that shelling out will probably be shortest in many languages.

@Neil Could you do that for a list of filenames?

pxeger

@Adám just with a loop?

Adám

Sure, but that'd be verbose in batch, so it enable more interesting solutions in other languages.

pxeger

@Adám (aside: I just spent the last 15 minutes trying to set up a virtual NTFS loop device (I'm on Linux), which was an adventure...)

Adám

12:46

CMP: Which one is more balanced?

pxeger

intuitively, the one on the left

but I couldn't tell you why

Adám

I was thinking it is because the large bare area above A balances with the bare area in L.

pxeger

yeah, probably

pVC aecidiospore adduced

13:19

@Adám right

@lyxal why do people do DST

makes no sense

user

@NewPosts Now I want to make a challenge to prove something in Scala :p

pxeger

@Adám (by the way, I can't be the only one who sees youtu.be/euiSHuaw6Q4?t=20)

user

Proving commutativity of addition on naturals should be doable, actually

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced Historical reasons 🤷‍♂️

Adám

@pxeger You mean that this could get in trouble with Apple?

user

I don’t see how

pxeger

13:22

@Adám no, just the big apple on the dark background with the lines reminded me of that scene lol

Adám

Oh.

pxeger

(and anyway, APL came before Apple)

user

Time for Dyalog to sue Apple :p

Adám

IBM used apples for APL before Apple existed. I'd love to see Apple sue IBM for this.

user

They might even lose

Adám

13:27

Exactly.

Neil

@Adám sure, just use %* instead

pxeger

13:52

0

A: Guess my password (cops' thread)

Python, 54 bytes lambda x,y:x.isidentifier()and exec(f"{x}(1),1/0;{y}") Attempt This Online! Works in CPython 3.9.7. Accepts two strings as passwords. The flag is None, which should be returned from the function.

Bubbler

@user There's one such challenge for Haskell on Codewars, which is at master level. The same challenge in Lean and Coq is at beginner level lol

user

Oh wow

I'd expect it to be intermediate at the most in a non-theorem proving language

pxeger

@user well, I'd have absolutely no idea where to start

CMC: why would I use the following construct in Python: (lambda a: lambda b: c(b, a))(d)

@lyxal no, the 30kth starred message is "CMA: One of its legs is both the same!", not "among us"!

user

14:18

@pxeger Because you're a frickin' masochist who made an extension of CPython called Whython

bmj.com/content/bmj/363/bmj.k5094.full.pdf turns out parachutes aren't useful after all :P

> Parachute use compared with a backpack control
did not reduce death or major traumatic injury when
used by participants jumping from aircraft in this first
randomized evaluation of the intervention. This largely
resulted from our ability to only recruit participants
jumping from stationary aircraft on the ground.

2

pxeger

nope, I have used it in totally normal python code

user

What were the real names? Surely you didn't use a, b, c, and d?

pxeger

no, that's just a template

user

Without the (d), it'd make sense if you wanted to curry something

pxeger

If I tell you some of the names it'll explain it too easily

Hint #1: d is actually i

b is self and c is compare

user

14:21

I wonder why not (lambda b: c(b, d)) directly. Perhaps you want d to be evaluated immediately instead of some mutable variable being captured?

pxeger

I can't tell you a

@user bingo

user

Ah, if it's in a loop, you don't want the next value of i to be kept

Ran into this problem with JS :(

pxeger

yep

a was actually hack_because_closures

user

lol

pxeger

there needs to be a way to declare a variable as copied rather than a cell variable

rust can probably do that, smug little language

rak1507

15:01

@pxeger you can do lambda b,d=d:c(b,d) instead I think

pxeger

15:17

@rak1507 no, because the generated function can't just have a default argument like that

user

[d:=i] and (lambda b: c(b, d)?

pxeger

> PArticipation in RAndomized trials Compromised by widely Held beliefs aboUt lack of Treatment Equipoise (PARACHUTE) trial

user

That entire paper is glorious :P

Did you see the picture of the person jumping out the airplane without a parachute at the end?

@user Or eval("lambda b: c(b, " + repr(d) + ")") >;P

> Strengths and weaknesses of this study
A key strength of the PARACHUTE trial was that it was designed and initially powered to detect differences in the combination of death and major traumatic injury. Although the use of softer endpoints, such as levels of fear before and after jumping, or its surrogates, such as loss of urinary continence, could have yielded more power to detect an effect of parachutes, we believe that that our selection of bias-resistant endpoints that are meaningful to all patients increases the clinical relevance of the trial.

pxeger

15:33

@user won't work, because d will just be closed over instead

you need a completely new scope

user

That's fine, though, isn't it? d never changes, only i

pxeger

it changes every loop, if you do for i in x: [d:=i] and lambda b: c(b, d)

interestingly, it would work with a list comprehension, because the body of a comprehension is executed in a separate scope

(lambda b: c(b, d) for d in [i])

user

Oh

rak1507

@pxeger really?

pxeger

for my requirements, it can't

(and this is a practical program, not golfed lol)

pVC aecidiospore adduced

16:29

@user bruh mods how i unflag

pxeger

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced ~~keep flagging things incorrectly, and then the system will decide your flags are ignorable, so you won't need to worry about unflagging~~

3

pVC aecidiospore adduced

oh

lol

pxeger

(don't do that)

user

16:57

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced Get the mods to de;lete the message, and there will no longer be a flag

hyper-neutrino

does having too many invalid chat flags actually do anything (automatically)?

pVC aecidiospore adduced

desmos.com/calculator/swulwjx69j

^ people make real cool things in desmos

also its 10:30 pm here and i am supposed ro sleep

so yHa i gota fo

bey

user

17:25

Oh wow, that's really nice

Neil

18:02

at last, I've caught up with all of the questions

user

@Bubbler Tried doing it in Scala, and it's not that horrible (Scastie). It did take me a couple of hours to write :P, but that was mostly because I'm not good at this sort of thing and didn't know how to set the "axioms" up

I'd love to make a challenge about proving stuff in practical languages, but I guess it'd be inappropriate even as a popcon :(

DLosc

20:38

My thoughts about the flag debate, which morphed into an argument that golflang design is a game in its own right and needs its own rules

5

Let me know what you think of my analysis and whether I should post (some version of) it on Meta.

Wheat Witch

@DLosc You should post this on the blog I think. It's very interesting.

Unrelated String

^

caird coinheringaahing

@DLosc Definitely would be an excellent blog post

Also, Programmer A and Programmer B sound familiar.... :P

DLosc

20:54

@WheatWitch Hm, okay. What's the procedure & timing for that, since Redwolf's KotH post was pretty recent?

AviFS

There was another blog post? We should have a better way to announce it!

Wasn't there a pinned announcement here the last two times we had a blog post?

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing I decided it would be best to keep things as generic as possible. ...But, yes. ;P

caird coinheringaahing

It's featured on main btw, but yeah, a pin in here would be appropriate (I'm on mobile, any RO/mod is welcome to do that)

AviFS

Do you mean featured on meta?

caird coinheringaahing

@DLosc I think allowing a minimum of 2 weeks between posts is a good idea. Depending on how urgently you'd like it to go up, anywhere from 2 weeks to a month (when the featured tag expires) would be appropriate IMO

@AviFS I guess, it shows a link to the post on the sidebar of both main and meta

CGCC Blog #3: King of the Hill!

7

AviFS

20:58

Oh, I see! I didn't know main meant non-meta!

Thanks caird!

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS I mainly use "main" to distinguish from the CGCC meta site, just to be clearer

AviFS

Yeah, now I get it; thanks!

DLosc

21:18

@user I wrote a limerick about Pyth back in the day. The last line didn't age very well... :P ...but I'm still pretty pleased with it.

caird coinheringaahing

23:11

CMM: Should this deleted answer be undeleted (pastebin of post + comments for <10k+ users)? It was deleted by Mego, after being flagged as invalid, as a number of users believed it to be a non-serious contender. However, our definition of "serious contender" explicitly allows "optional restrictions/bonuses taken"

caird coinheringaahing

23:23

@DLosc Regarding note 2: codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/162093

user

@DLosc :P I like mboomb's too

Also, how did you even find that message after so long?

@cairdcoinheringaahing What restriction is answer using?

caird coinheringaahing

@user It's restricting itself to be a List of Noah

user

Ah

caird coinheringaahing

> Just for fun, a solution that is itself a "List of Noah".

user

I think it should be undeleted

It initially looked just plain weird because the tabs looked like multiple spaces, but that makes sense

caird coinheringaahing

23:36

So do I, but I'm holding off casting a VTuD (and I ask others do the same) until a decision is come to

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Perhaps Programmer R and Programmer L would be better? (R and L stand for Right and Left, of course, any relation to TNB regulars is a complete coincidence :P)

caird coinheringaahing

Perfect, then we could describe people who support flags as "left wing" (as they're on the left), and those against as "right wing" (etc.) :P

I see nothing that could make this system bad :P

user

Makes sense, Redwolf's from Texas /s

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'd say it wouldn't hurt to undelete it

Adalynn

23:51

Pf

lyxal

@Adalynn yes

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