The Nineteenth Byte - 2021-08-22 (page 1 of 4)

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12:02 AM

CMC: Write a Scala parser

12:13 AM

@user Scala, zero bytes: ``

parses and executes code

I'm afraid that's not valid. You're not including the scala command there, and it shouldn't execute the code, just build an AST from it :P

Downvoted.

Dude coinheringaahing

@user Jelly, 10 years in the future: ŒS

12:30 AM

Vyxal, 10 years in the future: ඞS

CMQ: How long do you think Jelly will last as a popular code golfing language?

another couple of years probably

Hmm, which language do you think will replace it?

basically as long as code golf lasts, jelly is sufficiently golfy that even new developments probably won't make it 'obsolete' like golfscript

@user no idea

Wait, so you think code golf itself will only last a couple of years?

no

I think I put it badly, I think jelly will always be a bit used, more than something like golfscript, but something will inevitably outgolf it

and that will be what's mainly used

12:38 AM

Ah

Dude coinheringaahing

12:57 AM

You say that, but Jelly is probably one of the longest running "champions" of code golf

yeah which is why I think it'll still be used basically as long as code golf is, but might only be 'dominant' for another few

Dude coinheringaahing

For simplicities sake, let's say the the creation of Golfscript was the start of golfing languages. There has (to my knowledge) never been a single undisputed champion of code golf since then. Golfscript fought J and APL, CJam and Pyth contended, Jelly still loses to 05AB1E and Husk

However, the last era - Jelly and 05AB1E - has been the longest by far. Pyth was created 5 years after Golfscript and immediately started winning. Jelly was created 6 years ago, and still ranks top of the ELO ratings

I suspect that golfing languages are asymptotically reaching a "fixed point", where new golfing languages are just rip offs of older winners with a more optimised builtin set, and that "new" ideas for languages are unlikely to arise

ya

1:23 AM

@Dudecoinheringaahing ELO rankings don't take into account newer languages/answers from this year

Because SEDE reasons

I'm still waiting for Redwolf's language rating scheme

Unless of course there's a way to restrict SEDE data to a single year

Dude coinheringaahing

@exedraj There is, kind of

Are you only looking at the Posts table?

I think so

One moment while I actually find the query

@Dudecoinheringaahing yes, it looks that way

Dude coinheringaahing

If so, replace from Posts with from (select * from Posts where Year(CreationDate) = 2021) as Posts. I think that should work

Another SEDE question: how do I add custom parameters?

As in, how can I specify the year from user input?

Dude coinheringaahing

##Year:int?2021## instead of 2021

Obviously you've got a type indicator after the :. The thing before the : is the input "prompt" shown, and the value after the ? is the default value

I think you can reuse it later with something like select * from Posts where Id = ##Value## and Score = ##Value##, but I haven't tested that

1:55 AM

Like this?

2:19 AM

I back

He protecc

he attac

But most importantly, he bac

What's the letter after j?

?

that's not a letter

neither are you

2:34 AM

OMG GOTTEM

Unrelated String

succ 'j'

@exedraj Hyper actually is a letter

@emanresuA yesn't

'ha' is a letter in the Japanese hiragana alphabet.

? is a letter in the lyxal alphabet then

2:46 AM

@UnrelatedString 107.toChar

Also, what’s the letter after d?

@exedraj the vyxal codepage clearly shows k after j :p

modifies vyxal codrpage to have ? After j instead

no it's actually z that's after j

@user but in the original message, ? comes after the j

Vertically? @hyper-neutrino

yes

Well this is vyxal not japanese so we go ltr :p

2:51 AM

wait, would the australian-ness cause it to be RTL?

or is it a vertical flip and not a rotation

user image

See

It's ? or e depending on what you call a letter

@hyper-neutrino No the version we see has been conveniently translated for us by lyxal

^

the priginal is flipped vertically and would be rtl for us

Wait no

It’d still be ltr

I stoopid

ʎǝbɥ' ᴉʇ,s sʇᴉll lʇɹ

qǝɔɐnsǝ oulʎ ʇɥǝ lǝʇʇǝɹs ɐɹǝ ɟlᴉddǝǝ

uoʇ ʇɥǝ sǝuʇǝuɔǝ oɹpǝɹ

2:56 AM

@Langjammers, I have only a couple hours more I can work before its over in ~12 hours

Anything for me to parse?

I'm free to write the parser for the next bit, if you guys have something!

Comments that mutate themselves

Not really any syntax to parse yet, though

Because x men first class

@AviFS If you could write a tokeniser for all the different types of comment in the comments.txt file, that'd be nice

It'd be even nicer if you could have it read the comments.txt file so it's dynamic

Lark, the library I'm using, is written in a BNF-like grammar

So there isn't anything to do yet. Just an alternated list of COMMENTS = a|b|c|d...

3:02 AM

Ok

I have no idea what we're doing.

Mmm, I do love myself a good bread-first search.

@emanresuA That’s what my brain surgeon said the other day!

Yeah, I don't understand what we're doing well enough either to start on writing the grammar

Parsing the comments is not a big piece of it

Like, the comments are going to be part of the structure

not just comments

3:29 AM

Right, but... what structure?

3:46 AM

Not sure at all

Browncat Programs

3:59 AM

This is sort of hard to say, but I feel like I'm halfway losing interest in code golf

and I don't want to

It feels sort of unfulfilling since I'm too busy to FGITW, and answering old questions is unrewarding

And I honestly feel like the site's running out of original ideas for challenges, or at least just me. I feel like my biggest contribution to the site was my second post ever and it's mostly been downhill in quality since then.

Well, not quality, but perceived quality

Anyone else ever feel like that? I'm really hoping I'm just busy/tired right now and this'll go away.

4:13 AM

I've had that many times throughout my time here (even multiple times while being a mod - in fact I am currently going through that too), and as for whether it'll go away for you I can't be sure, but I'd recommend (and this might be obvious, or not) not pushing yourself to participate more than you find enjoyable. Even as a mod, there's no requirement for me to be constantly active and participating, and taking a break definitely helps.

Like, if you observe my activity graph (or rather, rep graph, which pretty much correlates to my activity) you'll notice I went mostly inactive for a pretty long time not too long after becoming a mod (only really participating via clearing mod flags and not in chat, on the main site, or on meta), but became rather active in March/April again and was able to not only participate but help organize a bunch of things, and I'm feeling rather worn out now which I'm sure for myself will go away if I don't push myself.

Browncat Programs

That's reassuring to hear. It's probably just the whole back to school thing tiring me out right now, idk

That combined with feeling guilty for not getting work done on RTO/guild of reviewers/hunter-gatherer, which I know I shouldn't do but still do anyway :p

4:35 AM

I can a million percent attest to the same thing as well, for what it's worth. I struggle with ups and downs a lot re: my interests and invested time. I'll go through phases of really being into something, and then will stop cold out of nowhere and have no desire to go back. Sometimes I'll just be down for a while, and sometimes I'll have moved right on to the next thing already.

A problem for personally, is that sometimes they're things I should be doing, or feel I should be doing. And then the guilt compounds, like you're saying, and I become less and less able to do it. It turns into a downward spiral and the negative emotions associated become overwhelming.

Browncat Programs

Yeah :/

I could go on forever with more details; it's something I've thought about a lot. But the point is that you're not alone, and that I can sum it up into a few points of advice!

1. Don't feel badly. It doesn't help and it'll make you less likely to want to later on. On top of that, there's obviously no reason for you to feel badly. But even if there were!

2. Things are more fun when you want to do them! And things aren't fun when you don't want to do them! And you do things better when they're fun! So take a break, do whatever you want or have to for now, and come back when it sounds nice. There's no doubt it'll happen eventually and you'll be reinvigorated

3. Don't make it harder for yourself to come back in the future! Visit and say hi every now and then, assuming CGCC still feels like home. It can very easily become overwhelming to come back after one has 'disappeared.'

(I'm really afraid this happened to Dennis and it's happened to me in pretty destructive ways. Aka, I've missed a lecture or two and then not been able to get myself back to class for the rest of the semester, when I've been in a bad place.)

Anyway, that's way too much. And sorry for the soapbox thing. It hit close to home. But you def don't need life therapy for getting a bit burn out, lmao. It happens to everyone. Just don't totally leave us, pleassseeee!

@BrowncatPrograms I've lost interested in answering questions several times myself

I still really want to work on RTO and I've also been feeling super guilty about that!

4:46 AM

HOi

heck, I even completely forgot about code golf for a whole half-year before I got back into it

Browncat Programs

Thanks so much, y'all are really great :D

5

@exedraj and i dont have brains to answer most of them

that's why you stop playing the game of answering, and you start playing the meta-game of language creation

@BrowncatPrograms Me too, actually...

4:47 AM

@BrowncatPrograms don't be scared to take a break from actively contributing

feel free to turn it down a little

The last easily answerable question was a while ago

And I agree that answering old questions is mostly unrewarding

Occasionally you come up with something like this, but the rest of the time...

Browncat Programs

That is a really cool answer :p

Thanks

I was messing around, then I realised Dear Boss, was a valid sorting program

Also Lyxal got to make a Joe joke, so all good.

@BrowncatPrograms I suggest exploring other branches/topics related to code golf while you eventually regain interest. There's a whole world of esolang related groups out there that you probably haven't seen yet.

for example, the esolang discord server, the other esolang discord server and Truttle's discord server (a youtuber who does esolang videos and other interesting stuff)

@BrowncatPrograms I reccomend going to the LYAL nominations post and having a look at the language which interests you most.

Browncat Programs

4:56 AM

I have been meaning to try learning Jelly for the fourth time :p

@BrowncatPrograms By the way, I messaged you on Discord!

@BrowncatPrograms then you're one try away from actually getting it

IIRC it took me 5 attempts over 2 years to actually understand it

I've tried several times..

I also reccomend going to scooter.surge.sh/scooter

It's not a rickroll

I think we've given up on Langjam :p

Yeaj :P

We really need to play the organ better next time

5:13 AM

yeah I think it's important not to feel guilty about not participating, which is certainly easier said than done, but idk if it would help to like set concrete and achieveable "goals" to trick your mind into thinking you've done your "required share" of contribution (even though there absolutely is not one) to avoid that

granted, that's easier for me, cuz i can just say "oh the flag queue is empty = i have 'done my job'" (not really, but it helps alleviate that)

@AviFS nexttime i might participate solo or a team of 3/2

5:44 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Make me a shape kolmogorov-complexity random code-golf The game shapez.io has a huge variety of shapes you can produce, such as: Each shape has a unique short code, for example the above is CrWbScRu. This means, going clockwise from top right, red circle (Cr), blue wedge (Wb), cyan star (Sc), un...

^ My first good challenge idea in over a week :p

Guys I registered avifs.xyz!!

Browncat Programs

Nice!

It's just .99 cents for a year on github

It just redirects to apl-themes for now, but: avifs.xyz

on github? wdym?

5:48 AM

Yeah, avifs.github.io/apl-themes

Browncat Programs

:o I just found a 1 in 100k rarity item in a game I'm working on

Nice!!

It's such a sexy domain, though

@BrowncatPrograms Check your randomiser

Up until now, I had avifsternlieb.com

I made it for my web dev class, but it's such a clunky name

avifsternlieb.com → avifs.xyz

Apl comments are ⍝ sus

5:50 AM

avifs.io also available but wayyyy expensive

@emanresuA lmao, i never noticed

same with avifs.sh being super expensive

but a 2 char domain extension just feels sooooo nice

I'll prob splurge if/when I have the moneys

@hyper-neutrino True, although I think most of being a part of the community is just... being a part of the community

Browncat Programs

Oh it's one in the morning already lol

You could get a obscure one like .tk or .gd

Browncat Programs

I'll see y'all tomorrow! o/

@emanresuA I wonder if there's a .fs :p

So I think simply dropping by TNB every now is prob enough to not feel bad

Or at least it is for me; I have even opened the main page in ages

@emanresuA I super thought about it. I'll prob get one of those also, but once I start deciding which I'll never finish

So I'm putting off deciding for later

Wait, is xy a thing?

or maybe yz?

Browncat Programs

You can buy avi.fans for an AviFS fan club :p

5:55 AM

doubt it

two-letter ones are reserved only for countries

and there are no xy or yz countries

.io is not a country, that I'm aware of

Browncat Programs

Outer indonesian islands I think

British Indian Ocean Territory

NOOOOOOOOO

.xy and .yz don't exist

Someone needs to do that. They're super sexy

@pxeger oh...

Perhaps I can establish a country?

What are the requirements?

it's worse for me - I can't get pxeg.er even though .er exists, because you can only get .com.er

5:57 AM

Oh no!!! That'd be the bestest ever

That's soo lame

@AviFS albrecht-durer and kazimir-malevich don't look right.

I know. There's bugs for both on the Github

There was some weird glitch in transpiling to css

I haven't worked on it since, though I plan to

I'm planning on having a little interface that'll make it easier to make your own themes right there

And then would make it really easy to let you add it to the previewable themes

url.owl.com.cool.com

I don't know about Windows, but making themes in RIDE is a total pain; it's not fun at all

And there are a lot of options, of which <10 are actually used in the default preview

And 99% of the time, you only see like 6 of the things you configure

So it'd be more pleasant to configure those things, and I'd leave the nitty gritty to RIDE, if people want to fiddle around more with the little pieces

@AviFS Maybe something could be done to improve RIDE's UI. It is all HTML/CSS/JavaScript too, y'know.

6:04 AM

@Adám based on electron?

@Adám Hmmm, true

@PyGamer0 Yes.

But it has a very old-timey look

What I'm envisioning would be nontrivial to fit within the RIDE-look

I'm sure we could make it work, and RIDE should be rehauled anyway, but that's a much bigger project

@AviFS Ironic, given that we even had a professional outside designer come in to make RIDE look "modern".

It'll be a proof of concept, and if you guys like it, I'll be more than happy to work on reproducing something similar within RIDE

After we have a Github discussion, of course, haha

I've learned!

@Adám Eek. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so

I guess it could be worse. It sort of has a material design, flat-ui look

But it doesn't remotely modern to me

Of course, there's also the pastel purple

But it's not very convincing

6:09 AM

@AviFS Our CEO's favourite colour…

Like... at all

@Adám Haha, that's really funny!

Working on RIDE's UI overall is something I'd be very interested in doing sometime, though

If there are any opportunities or need there, please let me know!

RIDE is definitely missing devs, so maybe you have an in.

Throughout all of my APL experience, RIDE has been my number one stumbling block

It's been the main thing that's gotten in the way time and time again

@ngn where did your apl plugin for vim go?

page not found

@AviFS At HQ, carpets and "cubicle" walls are purple. Our forums are all purple. The "banners" at the bottom of dyalog.com. Our blog icon, TryAPL…

6:12 AM

And it's been the main, and only, thing, which consistently detracts from the APL experience, tbh

Is this Moore"s law graph accurate? mobile.twitter.com/futurejurvetson/status/…

@AviFS Did you log an issue every time it bothered you?

I think it could be so much more fun, approachable, and easy to learn with a better UI

Doubly exponential seems surprising!

@Adám This is all new to me. No, I wasn't even involved in the chatroom for the first year when I did most of my APLing

I didn't have 20 rep yet, and I think I was shy or something, if you can believe, haha

I remember emailing you though, but I still never wanted to come in for some reason

@PyGamer0 90% of APL misery is RIDE. The other 10% is trying to find & set up alternatives for RIDE, none of which ever work.

6:16 AM

@AviFS Well, do log issues, but remember that RIDE is supposed to be a development environment, not a tutorial interface.

Of course, I just mean learning to find your way around RIDE should be easier

(Of course, there's always the lingering issue that RIDE is actually no more than an HTML renderer.)

@AviFS Find your way around? Huh, where can you even go in RIDE?

What about working on improving the APL experience in VScode?

I wonder how that'd work as a different (modern) avenue entirely

For instance, they now have way improved support for Jupyter Notebooks

Which you guys put a lot of work into developing for APL

@AviFS It is very hard, because (Dyalog) APL has so tight integration between language and interface.

But which haven't really gone much of anywhere, so far as I know

In terms of user adoption, I mean

So even just making it easy to set up APL Jupyter notebooks and work with them in VScode would be a huge step forward for cross-platform scripting

6:19 AM

@AviFS Erm, no, not really. It was basically written by a 3rd party.

Especially of the sort aimed for people new to APL

@AviFS It'll probably be easier to script APL when we add support for that ;-)

(Who would be using Jupyter notebooks a lot more than people doing 'real' things)

@Adám I just meant for little APL scripts (small, simple pieces of code). What do you mean?

@AviFS We're adding proper #! script support, and making .apl files executable on Windows.

@Adám Oh, but still. That's just sitting almost untouched, waiting to be milked

@Adám Ooooh, nice!

I can't believe you still don't have that yet though, haha

6:22 AM

Anyone have a view about jupyter notebook vs lab vs vscode for python coding?

@AviFS 1. We need manpower. 2. How is it "waiting to be milked"?

@Anush depends

@AviFS Lack of customer demand.

@Anush Depends what sort of thing. I think you need organization to use notebooks effectively. I used to try and use them and I'd have an unusable mess

With git + regular files, I find it much easier to 'organize' unorganized stuff than my notebooks ever were

But try them out and see how they work for you!

unix source?

6:25 AM

@Adám Not sure what expression to use, but I mean that it's unused potential waiting to be used

The notebooks, I mean

@Adám That's for 2.

i got RIDE

And for 1: I might be able to help out

Speaking of, still haven't heard back re: #pub

@AviFS I understood the expression. I'm asking what that potential is.

Oh, I don't know, just to be more usable and used. My sense is that people aren't using them

@AviFS Wait, what‽ Did you not get my email 9 days ago, titled "Dyalog Internship: Cataloguing materials"?

6:29 AM

But if they become the cross platform 'repl' then I think they'd really get their bang for buck

Right now, setting it up is a pain, and notebooks isn't meant for APL

@AviFS I don't see how they can get anything close to the utility of the traditional session?

But if it worked out of the box by installing an extension or two in vscode, and then another extension took care of the backticks and other things we might want

Then I think people would mess around with APL a lot more

@AviFS Ah, so it is the integration of VSCode and Jupyter you want.

Aka, the friction to adopt is pretty high right now, imo

@Adám Well it occurred to me that a native-feeling vscode might be a good idea

Since lots of people have/use it and it's cross-platform

The disconnect between reality and Dyalog's perception is concerning.

6:32 AM

Jupyter notebooks is just one idea to simulte the repl feeling of ride

But I wouldn't want that to be the only APL thing vscode could do

I don't think anyone at Dyalog was aware that VSC was an interface for Jupyter Notebook.

I'll be happy to write some VSC extensions if I can figure it out!!

@Adám Glad to be the messenger

@Adám How so?

@AviFS ^^^^

Ah, re: VSC-Jupyter?

Yes. (But really applies to other things too, like #! scripting, and keyboarding…)

6:34 AM

Not to worry, it's a pretty newishhh feature!

@Adám Yeah, I thought you were talking about their perception of how easy it is to get started with Dyalog

Especially since your interest is in helping to ease the friction, eg APLorchard/seeds & APLcart

But even then, an effective APLer leverages APL's interactive development mode. I really don't see how that can be integrated into other interfaces like Jupyter, VSC (and other editors), cmdline scripting, etc. Heck, even RIDE.

@Adám YOU SEEEEEE

I didn't even know there was such a thing!

@AviFS What, interactive development?

Most programmers are on unix so far as I know. So all the more reason non-windows stuff has to work on its game

@Adám Yup. I just know the repl and the sidebar editor

@AviFS We do realise that there are hindrances (thought it might not be so clear what they are), but we are trying to do something about them, e.g. by adding a Getting Started menu item in (R)IDE.

6:37 AM

@AviFS thanks. What about vscode ?

@Anush I highly recommend vscode as your editor

@AviFS Maybe we need more "over-the-shoulder" videos of APLers developing?

@AviFS or nvim with a proper config ;)

@AviFS cool. Even for python?

@Anush most of the languages language

6:38 AM

I'm new to it, but it's recently become the sensible choice unless you want to pay, in which case some people still stick to sublime

That's a good endorsement!

@PyGamer0 Except APL :-(

I use Vim mode in VScode when I want friendly, and I use Vim in... the shell... when I want speed

Though I've been trying to find a good barebones GUI neovim thing for when I need fast

@AviFS GUI for neovim?

fancy one

@PyGamer0 Just for fast. I recommend VSC for every language that you don't know in and out already

@Adám Much needed. That'd be really great

6:40 AM

We should all be coding in Julia though :)

I spent loads of time searching for videos at the beginning

@AviFS I did a couple of Twitch sessions, but I'll try to do more then.

I seem to remember RikedyP's being the only ones I could find. The ones where he was doing some code challenge series in Rakue and APL

That is, aside from the couple classic demos of Life/Queens/Sudoku which I must've watched 20 times

But doing a code challenge (RGS does them too) is very different from actual dev work.

@Anush i tried learning julia (too hard for me)

6:42 AM

@Adám Right, but I still learned loads about how to maneuver through the editor

And what it looked like when someone who knew how to use RIDE, used RIDE

It's truly the least intuitive interface I've ever had to use

It may be different for folks on Linux maybe? But coming from a MacOS environment, it's really a mess

@AviFS Some details on that would be helpful. E.g. one thing I have been toying with/suggesting is menu items to create a new/edit an existing function/namespace/etc.

@Adám Right, but that's in the last month or two. I'm talking about 2 years ago; there may be other stuff too since then

Sorry, ⎕DL gives a domain error on negative numbers.

@Adám And I've always thought we need more "Functional Pearls" for APL

Functional Pearls have been lifechanging for me in Haskell

Because they also get open you up to the idiomatic ways to solve and approach problems in that paradigm

I still basically don't know how to think in an array-based way all that well

It's good enough the Phase 1 challenges and all, or almost all, of Phase 2

But it's like playing with an esolang

I have trouble approaching and organizing larger things within the paradigm

@AviFS Right, it is kind of hard to explain. Seems that some people just "get it" :-(

6:48 AM

And one doesn't know how they're structured

And again, severe manpower limitations.

@Adám But I'm saying I do get it, I think...

I mean I can do Phase 1 and Phase 2 pretty easily

But one thing is to do well-defined & self-contained problems

Right, big messy problems are, well, big and messy.

And another is to think within that world from the beginning. Approach a problem from within the world. Organize and structure the code idiomatically. And then be able to add/remove/refactor in idiomatic ways.

@Adám I don't feel like that's what I'm saying, though

We all have an idea of how to at least approach big/messy in Python

@AviFS No, sorry, your message after mine explains well.

6:52 AM

@Adám Oh awesome, I'm glad!

Anyway, all of that is agreeing with you

Not anything you necessarily have the manpower for, but easily solved with:

Pearls, articles, blogposts, over-the-shoulder, tutorials

And all the other ways that one immerses oneself in a different world

Maybe over-the-shoulder is actually easiest, since we need to work any way.

You know, like Spanish classes vs going to Spain

True.

You immerse yourself in the culture and idiomatic ways of speaking

Rather than basically translating from English to Spanish in your head

Which is what it looks like when eg an imperative programmer first tries Haskell

@PyGamer0 oh! Isn't it like python?

6:55 AM

You have to think natively within the paradigm, rather than just subconsciously transliterating ideas from a different one in your head

@AviFS Thanks for the feedback.

@Anush yes but i did want to learn another lang like python

Sure. Sorry it's so ranty

@Adám I've been thinking about you guys sponsoring a competition for APL "Functional Pearls"

Maybe diverting some of the cash prize from the summer one

@AviFS Well, actually, maybe if you could write it all up as a single coherent letter to our management, it might have more of an impact. I could help with editing

Lots of conferences do that, so the guidelines are pretty well defined

@Adám Sure, which part?

6:57 AM

@AviFS No, the whole thing. Tell us what we're missing/doing wrong and what we should do/focus on.

(Might take a while for us to react, though, as currently, "the building is on fire".)

> "Just as natural pearls grow from grains of sand that have irritated oysters, these programming pearls have grown from real problems that have irritated programmers. The programs are fun, and they teach important programming techniques and fundamental design principles." Those guidelines apply too to functional pearls.

Typical functional pearls consist of:

an instructive example of program calculation or proof, or
a nifty presentation of an old or new data structure, or
an interesting application or programming technique.

...

@PyGamer0 I am attracted by the speed. Python is dog slow

> I will continue to give Bird's advice to reviewers, instructing them to stop reading when:

they get bored, or
the material gets too complicated, or
too much specialist knowledge is needed, or
the writing is bad.

(You might want to avoid flooding TNB.)

Page on functional pearls

@Adám Yeah... I should

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