The Nineteenth Byte

unless I otherwise specify, when I say a coding thing is "nice" here, I usually mean "it is golfy and also looks terrible and probably isn't efficient and doesn't work in half of the situations" :D

Adám

Fair.

OK, I'm off to bed… again. ○/

lyxal

Again?

Adám

in The APL Orchard, 2 hours ago, by Adám

Thanks for all the input. I'll sleep on it.

lyxal

@Adám well off you go then

Don't let us keep you up

Bubbler

12:29 AM

I've only got this

and this

ngn

12:50 AM

Johann Rahn

Johann Rahn (Latinised form Rhonius) (10 March 1622 – 25 May 1676) was a Swiss mathematician who is credited with the first use of the division sign, ÷ (a repurposed obelus variant) and the therefore sign, ∴. The symbols were used in Teutsche Algebra, published in 1659. John Pell collaborated with Rahn in this book, which contains an example of the Pell equation. It is uncertain whether Rahn or Pell was responsible for introducing the symbols. == Books == Teutsche Algebra - Johann H. Rahn === Literature === R. Acampora Johann Heinrich Rahn und seine Teutsche Algebra, in R. Gebhardt (Herausgeber)...

OldSandboxPosts

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Recursive Z-matrix [code-golf] [array-manipulation] [matrix]

caird coinheringaahing

1:10 AM

Nice, I have an OEIS account :D

user

@ngn This is the guy I have to blame for aking me accidentally add numbers instead of dividing them in elementary school?

ngn

@user wait, you use this symbol when writing on paper?

caird coinheringaahing

And because I'd need to upload a b-file to correct the sequence, I guess that's waiting until I'm in front of my computer :/

ngn

@user when dividing 1 by 2, would you write 1÷2 instead of 1 on top of 2 with a line in the middle?

Redwolf Programs

I mean in elementary school I wouldn't think they'd ask to divide 1 by 2

ngn

1:21 AM

ok, 6 by 3

i would normally use the vertical notation (i think ÷ represents that), but if i have to write them on one line, it would be 6:3 (or 6/3 which is like a tilted vertical fraction)

Redwolf Programs

I wasn't even taught the relationship between fractions and division until 6th grade math where I am lol

Not even sure how that's possible

caird coinheringaahing

It looks like Arm is the LOTM, but the OP has deleted their account. Anyone willing to create the thread?

user

@ngn In elementary school i did, but not anymore

@ngn i don’t remember. I think we started with the first, then started writing them as fractions

Redwolf Programs

Let's just compromise and write on the top and bottom of the division sign.

3
÷
6

Makes perfect sense! :p

ngn

÷D

user

1:33 AM

Let’s write subtraction this way toi!

3

-

6

Oh wait…

Redwolf Programs

Isn't that what we've always done? Or is that why I failed Algebra...

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms nah, let's just represent fractions as ⟨numerator|denominator⟩

and then if you need the decimal representation, you just append ɖ

way easier

user

For multiplication:

3

  +
     6

Redwolf Programs

+?

This is getting cursed

Oh, that makes it better

user

SE removed my spaces

caird coinheringaahing

1:36 AM

10 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing

It looks like Arm is the LOTM, but the OP has deleted their account. Anyone willing to create the thread?

Redwolf Programs

Do they have to be familiar with ARM?

caird coinheringaahing

No

user

I could make it tomorrow if needed

Redwolf Programs

I guess I could do it then. (That doesn't make me responsible for any bounties though, right?)

user

No

caird coinheringaahing

1:37 AM

I did the vim one, I just included the presented info in the nomination, then posted the answer

@RedwolfPrograms No, bounties are always an optional part

user

I can contribute two bounties

Redwolf Programs

I'll make the post if y'all want

Any other volunteers?

caird coinheringaahing

It just means you'll get edit notifications for the next month :P

lyxal

if I ain't responsible for bounties I'll do it

Redwolf Programs

I'm fine with those :p

lyxal

1:38 AM

I suppose it's the least I can do for 2x-1

Redwolf Programs

@lyxal If you want to I'll let you then

lyxal

I'll do it

caird coinheringaahing

Anyone who wants to is fine to do so. Just copy paste the format, add in some basic info (aka from the nomination), add the answer and flag for the question to be made CW

Redwolf Programs

I think I'll actually try out this LotM

Not sure if I can run it, but I'll definitely learn it

caird coinheringaahing

The bounties for LotM have mainly been a way for a specific user each month to reward participation, they are by no means a mandatory thing to have

hyper-neutrino

1:41 AM

oh no, the fireworks begin again. imagine celebrating canada day :/

Redwolf Programs

"canada day" sounds like such a boring name for a holiday lol

although I guess ours is just "the fourth of july" to most people lol

hyper-neutrino

what's it actually called, independence day?

Redwolf Programs

Yeah

New Posts

0

Q: Language of the Month for July 2021: ARM

In accordance with our meta agreement, since one candidate received more votes than the others, we have a new featured language! Throughout July 2021, our Language of the Month will be: ARM What's a Language of the Month? See the meta post for nominations. In short, during July, those who wish ...

Redwolf Programs

Should I pin that? (or, better, a nicely formatted link to it)?

Don't remember if we did that with past LotMs

hyper-neutrino

1:45 AM

it's pinned to the main site sidebar so IDK if that's necessary

New Posts

0

Q: Tips for Golfing in ARM

Because ARM is the July 2021 LoTM, I figured I'd create the tips thread. ARM is probably the most successful architecture for the digital world. From mobile phones to supercomputers, ARM is everywhere! Consequently, let's have a thread where we can help each other shorten our ARM code. One tip pe...

tips

hyper-neutrino

might not be a bad idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

lyxal

Has cgcc ever had events before LoTM?

user

@hyper-neutrino yeah real canadians celebrate canadia day

Redwolf Programs

I was wondering why NP made dupe posts then realized I'm fricking blind

user

1:49 AM

@lyxal i think there was the thing where they posted lots of questions

hyper-neutrino

@lyxal the Site self-evaluation event in 2013 (an old review queue that no longer is in use), and "take the SO developer survey" in 2016, as well as the three elections

(see this)

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino so does that mean I have the record for most posts turned into site events?

user

@RedwolfPrograms hi fricking blind, I’m dad

Redwolf Programs

Did you get the milk?

hyper-neutrino

@lyxal technically, yes - one is a review queue link, one is an MSO link, three are election page links, and you have two, and Wzl has 1

user

1:51 AM

Sorry son, i need to go back for some lactaid

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino heck yeah

@NewPosts just to be clear, no rep is coming form me this time

user

@RedwolfPrograms (was this a reference to the thing where a dad saus he’s going to the grocery store and never comes back?)

lyxal

@user yes

Redwolf Programs

Quite clearly :p

hyper-neutrino

how much rep is typically given out during an LOTM?

user

1:53 AM

50

hyper-neutrino

total, I mean

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino 250 was given out for first time answers in May

user

Depends on popularity

hyper-neutrino

wait, wasn't it 50 for first + 200 for 5

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino yes

I mean 250 total

hyper-neutrino

1:56 AM

ah

user

to refuce how much rep you guve you can do what wezl did (award on second ans)

lyxal

as in, that's how much I gave in that regard

hyper-neutrino

common practice is +50 to the first answer, right?

lyxal

yes

hyper-neutrino

alright

lyxal

1:56 AM

uncommon practice is to have a deadlineless bounty running at the same time ;p

that took the total amount i gave out to 1150

user

Generous of you

hyper-neutrino

okay, attached a note - I will supply bounties this month

Redwolf Programs

Weird idea: A system where rep in the system is mostly constant, and new users receive a +100 bonus on reaching +100 on any account, which is the only way rep is added to the total. Upvotes would take rep from a community pool, which would be paid by rep lost from downvotes and flags, and users would be "taxed" for the additional amount based on their reputation and activity level

user

Why is rep constant

Redwolf Programs

Because that's what makes it different from normal rep

The total in the system only changes when someone gets the +100 bonus

user

2:02 AM

That implies you somehow become less reputable by believing others are reputable

No one would up ote

Redwolf Programs

No, it wouldn't tax you

It'd tax everyone a tiny bit

hyper-neutrino

another idea: reputation must be mined like bitcoin

Redwolf Programs

lol

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms that sounds like communism with extra steps

hyper-neutrino

also here's another idea that's isomorphic to yours

Redwolf Programs

2:03 AM

@RedwolfPrograms So upvoting someone would increase the value of everyone else's rep, basically

hyper-neutrino

take everyone's rep and divide it by the total rep to normalize it

Why?

I like mine more :p

funny

better idea: rep only comes from chat stars

meaning that you only get rep if you're funny or a RO or a mod

Redwolf Programs

2:04 AM

I support this

I like to think I'm both :p

lyxal

Under my proposed system, I would very rarely get rep

att

both of all three possibilities?

Bubbler

Even better idea: there's no rep. Instead each user has an ELO rating based on the amount of upvotes and downvotes gained on each question.

user

@Bubbler I support this

Redwolf Programs

@att It was two but it got edited

Bubbler

2:05 AM

Jon Skeet would have very well over 4000 (or 5000?) ELO

user

Also, rep and usernames should be hidden by default to svpid biases while votibg

lyxal

Best and final idea: rep comes from your average byte count. If you post an answer below your average byte count, you get rep. If you post above, you lose rep

Redwolf Programs

Boo

hyper-neutrino

wait, do LotM bounties go to first-time answerers or any user's first answer in that language during that month?

user

Codde bowling go brrrr

Redwolf Programs

2:06 AM

@lyxal That encourages solving trivial problems

And makes using non-golfing languages objectively stupid

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino user's first answer

@hyper-neutrino otherwise you wouldn't have gotten the +50 during May

hyper-neutrino

ah okay

updated

user

@lyxal My first answer? Gee thanks!

hyper-neutrino

0/10 joke, time to 11 your username back to Original Original Original VI

Redwolf Programs

Imagine getting back from a few months away from SE and you've got like -1200 in taxes :p

user

2:10 AM

@hyper-neutrino fine with me

Tine for a more original name :p

Redwolf Programs

The way I'd make the taxes work is to take a percentage of the user's reputation, based on a number that decreases depending on how long they've been inactive. For example, a user that hasn't participated much over the last year might only lose 0.1%, while one that's been active a lot recently might lose 1%.

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal Only because there's been 3 LotM events :P

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing that's the whole joke ;p

caird coinheringaahing

I've posted 2 of the LotM threads, so we'd be tied if they'd been events from the start :P

@lyxal The rule is that you can only be a maximum of 2 :P

Once elected, you either stop being funny or give up your ROship (not that that matters but still) :P

hyper-neutrino

2:25 AM

well, I'm not funny, so time to add myself as an RO :P

Redwolf Programs

If a tax system was set up that took reputation ** 0.75 / 100 reputation from all users (ignoring the initial 1), a total of 24187.3785 would be taken if we were to be taxed right now using my system.

(It's not a big tax at all either, it's only 16.818 rep for a 20k user)

lyxal

2:51 AM

@JoKing I though the idea was that the featured tag wasn't edited into LoTM posts anymore because they are events

Jo King

oh really? oops

hyper-neutrino

Uh, yeah, I probably didn't communicate that clearly with you and WW, oops.

lyxal

TIL I can't unfeature my own posts

also, anyone got any ideas for a (number, number) dyad overload?

hyper-neutrino

do you have a copy-sign builtin

lyxal

Probably not

I'll do that then

hyper-neutrino

2:56 AM

idk if it's useful, just a random idea

lyxal

Seems more useful than [a + b, a - b]

Razetime

what about a thing that takes a b f g and leaves (f(a, b))(g(a,b)) on stack

lyxal

3:12 AM

Are those numbers razetime?

No they aren't

I asked for things with two numbers, not transformers

Razetime

ugh

hyper-neutrino

@lyxal well that's just add-subtract-parallelize right?

Razetime

3:30 AM

btw what's LoTM for this month

hyper-neutrino

ARM

Jo King

LEG

hyper-neutrino

it is in the upcoming events section in the sidebar near the top

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino yes

Razetime

this is gonna receive a lot of answers

hyper-neutrino

3:30 AM

@lyxal and how much would copy sign be without a built-in

sign multiply combine?

Razetime

wow you linked to arm.com

hyper-neutrino

wait that doesn't copy sign

it'd need to be sign swap abs multiply

(another reason I dislike stack langs for golf /hj)

Razetime

wat is hj

hyper-neutrino

half-joke

Razetime

i kind of dislike stack langs for golf but not enough to stop using them

they're just great for making write only scripts without needing much syntax knowledge

lyxal

3:35 AM

@hyper-neutrino wouldn't prefix be just as long?

That would make it non-tacit that you don't like for golf

Redwolf Programs

From what I've seen stack based and prefix are almost always the same length

PyGamer0

what about postfix vs prefix

Redwolf Programs

Not really a difference between those other than the order you write things

DLosc

Can I get some more eyes on this proposal? I'd like it to become the default (if people agree), but it needs a lot of votes to catch up to the current highest-voted answer.

lyxal

@DLosc now it needs less

The gap is only 11 now

Redwolf Programs

3:42 AM

Actually ignore me the general idea is pretty reasonable so the arbitrary-ness of the mapping doesn't matter at all

Jo King

i planned to make an online Piet interpreter at some point and the encoding probably would have been similar

@DLosc i would suggest also allowing newlines to represent linebreaks, just for ease of use

DLosc

@JoKing Good point, I did think of updating the translation program to support that. Will make a note of it.

Redwolf Programs

CMM: If someone were to make an OS capable of running a programming language's interpreter and storing files of fractional byte counts, would it be valid to score it with fractional byte counts?

Bubbler

Yes if such an OS is already out there when the answer is posted

PyGamer0

Final feedback?

Redwolf Programs

3:50 AM

@Bubbler Wait why? It's not like that for languages.

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms ...It's not? I thought the rule was the language has to have an implementation before you can answer in it. The implementation didn't have to exist when the question was posted, though.

Redwolf Programs

Oh yeah, misread that

Bubbler

@RedwolfPrograms An interpreter means something that can actually run your code. If your code is to be stored in fractional bytes (which requires OS support), then you need both the OS and the interpreter to run it

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, I read "question" not "answer" for some reason

hyper-neutrino

4:33 AM

@lyxal has the george ring banner always been solid white?

I remember it being less intrusive on lyxal.pythonanywhere.com...

lyxal

It's usually transparent

hyper-neutrino

ah

lyxal

I've asked if there's been any change

@hyper-neutrino the recent change has been confirmed

hyper-neutrino

rip

Redwolf Programs

HTTP allowing both site.com/xyz and site.com/xyz/ and allowing progams to differentiate between them is quite cursed

That has caused me great pain at least once

Jo King

4:49 AM

still waiting on a /// interpreter that makes use of that

Razetime

5:15 AM

is mayonnaise a programming language

@Bubbler A language-wise elo ranking would encourage people to post an answer in their language even if someone already did

that does sound like a cool idea

hyper-neutrino

5:43 AM

is it just me or is UTF-8 rather inefficient at packing characters?

Redwolf Programs

It's for a reason

hyper-neutrino

i feel like it'd be both more compact and simpler to just have 0xxxxxxx be one byte and 1xxxxxxx be start byte for continuation

Redwolf Programs

You'd usually only save a few bits with that if I understand what you're saying right

And that comes at the cost of easy handling

hyper-neutrino

probably. TBH i guess the problem is I just don't know what said easy handling is :P

oh i guess the number of 1s before the 0 indicates the number of bytes in this character

Redwolf Programs

If you mean the continuation bytes should just be xxxxxxxx, UTF-1 (I think) did that and it caused lots of weird issues with terminal escapes I think

hyper-neutrino

5:45 AM

but then why does each subsequent byte starts with 10? i feel like they could just not start with anything

@RedwolfPrograms oh, i see

Redwolf Programs

Wait, the subsequent ones start with 10?

ngn

@hyper-neutrino that makes utf8 "self-synchronizing", i.e. if you start reading from the middle of a multibyte sequence, you'd know where the next char begins

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms I thought it was 1

hyper-neutrino

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Encoding -

Redwolf Programs

Oh yeah, forgot the 10 was needed for the self-sync

hyper-neutrino

5:48 AM

@ngn isn't it possible for the subsequent bytes to have like 10101010 and then you can't tell where that is?

i'm sure you're correct - i'm just missing something

Redwolf Programs

10 is always a subsequent byte, right?

A start one would be either 0 or 11+0

hyper-neutrino

or do you mean

if you know where each byte starts

Redwolf Programs

You can't tell where in it you are I guess, but it's a broken char anyway

ngn

@hyper-neutrino a multibyte sequence is theoretically 6 bytes max iirc. in practice - 4 bytes max. so ultimately, you'll get to a byte that doesn't start with 10 or to the end of the stream

hyper-neutrino

ah. okay. so if you see a byte you know it's not a start byte if it begins 10

ngn

5:50 AM

yep, you just skip the bytes with leading 10s

hyper-neutrino

cool. thanks for explaining :D

Redwolf Programs

Currently debugging a rough interpreter for a neat language I came up with, stay tuned for more details :D

hyper-neutrino

will it be like risky or will we actually get to know something about it :p

Redwolf Programs

It'll be like risky :p

I'm doing that from now on, I like the suspense

Although this one's not quite as interesting, but still a bit neat

hyper-neutrino

imagine having interesting ideas at all

ngn

5:54 AM

@hyper-neutrino i forgot to mention - no byte in a multibyte sequence can start with 0 because one of the requirements for the encoding was to be ascii-compatible

hyper-neutrino

Ah. right, makes sense

A username

PyGamer0

CMC: Make a programming language. Memory: single registor, Commands: + Increment the registor, - Decrement the registor . Output the value as a ascii char * Multiply the registor by 2, ( start loop for registor times ) end loop

hyper-neutrino

*register

PyGamer0

whatever

example program: ++****.------------------(++.)

wasif

6:08 AM

hi everyone

PyGamer0

@wasif hi

wasif

21

Q: Write an interpreter generator

There are quite a few accumulator-based programming languages featured in challenges across the site, but it's a little tiring to have to write almost identical code for each one. So in this challenge you will write a program which can generate interpreters from an input. How does this work? Let ...

code-golf interpreter

just what you want

Redwolf Programs

Why does my code only work when there's logging in it

A username

@wasif Not quite

Redwolf Programs

Why the frick does my code only work when there's logging in it

wasif

6:09 AM

@Ausername oh sorry i forgot it needed loops

Redwolf Programs

Is this a bug in V8

A username

'the fricketing frick'?

wasif

@RedwolfPrograms which code

A username

@RedwolfPrograms Maybe the logging modifies something in place, or provides a delay.

ngn

schroedinger's code

Redwolf Programs

6:11 AM

Wait what...it was the code I was using to format the output, which was somehow modifying the output in place

hyper-neutrino

@PyGamer0 not very helpful without the intended output

Redwolf Programs

> .forEach(l => console.log(l.id + ": " + (+l.on)))

Anyone see anything there that could cause that sort of issue?

l.on would become false

hyper-neutrino

anyway, this works by copying the TIO brainfuck implementation

Redwolf Programs

Even when it was true

hyper-neutrino

so if you remove that line it no longer works?

this looks like it doesn't modify other than via output

Redwolf Programs

6:13 AM

hyper-neutrino

ooh circuits

Redwolf Programs

Wait I cropped out the previous state by accident

A username

Does forEach modify the original array?

hyper-neutrino

what if you replace +l.on with l.on ? 1 : 0

A username

Oh

Are you using any libraries?

Redwolf Programs

6:14 AM

wat

hyper-neutrino

~~this is what you get for using javascript~~

Redwolf Programs

Now it's not working in a different way

hyper-neutrino

.-.

Redwolf Programs

I think I either just found a bug in V8 or I did something so scarily awful I should be killed on the spot

A username

Silver code-golf!

Redwolf Programs

6:15 AM

Nice!!!

hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms do you have a minimal reproduction?

Redwolf Programs

No, I can't even get the full scale bug to work reliably

It fails in a different spot each time

hyper-neutrino

tf

prediction: something in the global scope overwrites your values

A username

@RedwolfPrograms Good job

Redwolf Programs

Nothing in global scope

Other than interpreter and circuit

And local has more precedence

hyper-neutrino

6:17 AM

any userscripts / site scripts, or are you on a blank page?

Redwolf Programs

Blank page

hyper-neutrino

what is the buggy behavior anyway

Redwolf Programs

Is...is code running out of order somewhere?

hyper-neutrino

when it does happen

Redwolf Programs

Basically one light should be on and one should be off

Both seem to be off sometimes

But sometimes it'll change, without me doing anything

hyper-neutrino

6:19 AM

well i suppose you aren't willing to send me your entire code to debug :p

Redwolf Programs

If this goes on much longer I will

Now that I added logging in one spot it works again

This is almost certainly an out-of-order execution bug in V8 I think

There's no other possiblity I can think of, other than ghosts :p

hyper-neutrino

lol

wasif

@Ausername congrats

you just need 14 more rep to cross me

Redwolf Programs

I guess I'll attempt an MCVN, but given how weird this bug's been having I'm not sure if it'll work

I think I'll just have to start golfing down my code to get an MCVN, instead of rewriting one from scratch

hyper-neutrino

lol. see, code golfing is a practical skill

when trying to make an MCVE for debugging or whatever, shorter = easier to read the whole thing and understand each component = better. ez

lyxal

6:29 AM

@Ausername only 1 smh

hyper-neutrino

ಠ_ಠ

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino you're just jealous you don't have 2 silver either

:p

hyper-neutrino

imagine not having gold, smh

A username

@wasif Srsly?

hyper-neutrino

:p

A username

6:31 AM

Bye, playing minecraft

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino I'm only 12 votes away y'know

hyper-neutrino

oh. nice

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms mcvn?

Redwolf Programs

I think I broke V8

I need to figure out how

lyxal

Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable Nexample?

hyper-neutrino

6:32 AM

(i actually do know cuz i was on your profile the other day, don't remember why, and noticed the progress)

Redwolf Programs

@lyxal oh lol

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino to view my weekly profile change obv /s

Redwolf Programs

I hate es so much I guess I've started auto-filtering them lol

lyxal

Nexample?

hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms you should try that weird remapping thing i suggested with my zero medical experience and knowledge

lyxal

6:35 AM

Medical experience? Why tf do you need medical experience for writing JS? Is it to be able to be your own doctor when the side effects of using JS become too unbearable? \s

Adám

> Rahn (…) introduced ÷ as a sign for division. (…) it did not enjoy popularity in Switzerland and the symbol ÷ for division was not adopted by his countrymen. In England, the course of events was different. The translation was met with a favorable reception; Rahn's ÷ and some other symbols were adopted by later English writers, (…) It became adopted regularly in Great Britain and the United States, but not on the European Continent. (Florian Cajori)

Redwolf Programs

Down to 126 lines of code now :p

I guess I need to start removing some actual logic now

hyper-neutrino

logic? aren't you coding in JS /s

3

lyxal

Man frick the ISO 80000-2 standard for mathematical notation

Imma use ÷ for division like a real gamer whether they like it or not

PyGamer0

ahh yes roblox

Redwolf Programs

6:42 AM

I want to just ask on SO already, but my code is a bit messy

lyxal

@PyGamer0 I see your roblox and raise you a steamed hams

ngn

@Adám and how does that make you feel? :)

Adám

@ngn Hungry.

Redwolf Programs

Oh no

I think I did a mega stupid

Okay I didn't

wasif

back again

@lyxal when is Vyxal e branch releqsing

(Plus then what character will be used to part iterable in n pieces if you use ÷ for division)

Redwolf Programs

6:55 AM

Wait, I think it was a mega stupid which I did

I need to do further investigation, but I think I got the indices and ids (which are usually the same as the indices) mixed up somewhere, and since I use a set at one point that could introduce nondeterministic behavior

Wait, the weird thing is that the set is cast back to an array way before the error's happening

Wait I'm not mega stupid

That didn't fix it

There seems to be a timing aspect to it, unless I got super unlucky over and over again

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