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5:00 PM
@ChartZBelatedly I have a metagolf which is a Jelly program that generates a Sage program that generates a Jelly program, the escaping is kind-of crazy
because the Jelly quotes can't be escaped by any reasonable means, so I have to use an unreasonable means
 
@ais523 Is that the hash script that basically breaks all "map these strings to these numbers" challenges?
 
@ChartZBelatedly yep
it's still not quite a full break because the boilerplate may be outgolfable
I used to hate the Mathematica builtin-only solutions, because they didn't show much off of the power of the language, just the size of the library which could be written in anything
but nowadays I see them as a challenge: see if you can write a program that's shorter than the name of the builtin
 
According to the outstanding bounties here, Razetime is "owed" 7000 rep from Adam O.o
 
e.g. this answer solves an edit distance problem, which most answers solve with builtins, in fewer characters than the word “Levenshtein” has
 
Golfing languages can often do that, especially when the builtin's name is long enough.
 
5:07 PM
@ChartZBelatedly I've said a while ago that if any Stack Exchange feature is actually useful/beneficial, it's only because it's being used in a way other than the intended one; at this point I think Adám's use of the site is a very long way away from what the Stack Exchange developers expected, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI in that particular answer, it took a while to find the right golfing language to use
 
@ais523 It's basically advertising, don't see anything wrong with that
 
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI A lot of the longer builtins in Mathematica do stuff that most languages can't reasonably do (e.g. advanced graph theory)
 
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI indeed, and this is Adám's actual job, advertising
 
@ChartZBelatedly Fair point
 
but it's being done in a way that's respectful of / beneficial to the community
 
5:09 PM
I love the arrangement for making people learn APL
 
it's genius
when I warned you not to accept his offer of learning APL because you'd become addicted, I was deadly serious
2
 
The APL Orchard's nice too, although there's a bit of weird drama there sometimes.
 
You guys are paying his salary
 
I will never be able to sacrifice my reputation like that
 
@ChartZBelatedly Razetime has also earned over 1/4 of his total rep from those bounties :P
 
5:10 PM
@Wasif It's just fake internet points
 
LOL
 
After a while, you stop caring
@ChartZBelatedly And will earn more
 
@Wasif Once you get beyond a certain amount (and that amount's different for everyone), you no longer care
 
@ChartZBelatedly I think to get that feeling, i have to cross long rivers
 
EVO
Umm...can someone ping me (i just want to test a chrome extension i downloaded)
 
5:11 PM
I like getting upvotes (it shows that people appreciate my work, or think it's good), but at this point, if there was no rep attached to them, I wouldn't really care
 
@EVO Hi
 
@ChartZBelatedly well, we have a user who earned at least 104 silver badges from one question
 
The only thing I still "care" about rep at this point, is getting the Epic and Legendary badges :P
 
EVO
@Wasif thx but didnt work
 
@ais523 Who, and which question?
 
5:12 PM
@ais523 whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
 
I'm not going to lie, seeing that green notification in the top right corner makes me very happy
2
 
@ChartZBelatedly stasoid, and codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/102370
 
@ais523 Ah, of course
I was thinking that someone wrote a question and somehow got 104 silver badges from ti :P
 
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI ah.... a divine feeling
 
getting upvoted feels nice but not really for the rep anymore, it's more of just people saw my answer and approved of it. even after i stopped caring about the internet points i still seek external validation upvotes are still cool
 
5:13 PM
looks like 104 exactly
 
@ais523 They have 1/3 of my rep, but almost double the silver badges :P
 
stasoid may have the highest silver badge to bronze badge ratio of anyone on Stack Exchange?
 
Quite possibly
And potentially the highest number of silver badges without a gold badge
 
@HyperNeutrino Having people appreciate you is always nice :)
 
I'm still happy to have written that question, I consider it one of my best accomplishments on the site
 
5:15 PM
Giving rep to others and hopefully making them happy also makes you happy
 
I have only gave +100 bounty in answer
 
@ais523 It is one of the more impressive questions on the site (in terms of what it started/helped create)
 
@ChartZBelatedly well, it did exactly what I was hoping for, although it went further than I think maybe anyone expected
 
@Wasif I wrote two longer python ones that were a bit crap, but this one is my longest in spirit codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/212223/95516
 
really, just reaching 50 was a great accomplishment, but then it started getting weird
 
5:18 PM
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI The worst thing about repcapping: you don't see that little green + for the rest of the day :(
@ais523 Those are the best challenges, when the answers start getting weird :P
 
@ChartZBelatedly APL can do graph theory
 
I hate how inactive CGCC is during the weekends
 
It's the weekend
How is it inactive?
Or are you talking about questions?
 
it is a bit less active especially in chat
 
I had always meant to write a big website about the polyglot, with a syntax highlighter that let you follow any individual language and see how it parsed, but now it's reached the point where that's probably too big a task for one person and maybe fore the entire community
 
5:20 PM
Mainly the main site, tho chat is typically less active on Sat/Sunday
 
am I running it wrong or does the current polyglot chain not work for V (supposed to print 2)
 
@Jonah The explanation's good enough :)
@HyperNeutrino Uh oh
 
@HyperNeutrino V is a little problematic because the interpreter is slow, and tends to time out given how large the polyglot has gotten
 
Looks like the verifier shows it passing
 
there's apparently a delay in it of 1 second per byte or per two bytes, something like that
so, if you're trying to run the interpreter at the current size, it takes ages
 
5:21 PM
yPLdSD4@ZbnRyQLvA2AQBVQhQfxINDNZpP3Ure72SLZt68EotEFoABUE6hCVwEk0Gx2SJpdrT2zno0skOWPb6SZjwrrydivBM7a3nHnom???
 
the verifier just runs the last line, which is meant to undo all the previous commands and just insert a 2
 
CMQ: How much bounty have you earned from deadlineless bounty and language of the month campaigns (and will earn)?
 
@pxeger t68EotEFoABUE6hCVwEk0Gx2SJpdrT2zno0skOWPb6SZjw6hCVwEk0Gx2SJpdrT2
 
@Wasif lots
 
@pxeger I only copy-pasted part of the URL
 
5:22 PM
yes lol
 
although not much from lotm, can't find many interesting questions and I don't like doing trivial answers
 
@Wasif since my account deletion, 1000 and am still owed 100; I forget how much I earned from deadline-less bounties before then but it may not have been anything
 
on TIO it outputs random stuff, is that just cuz TIO can't delete output content via like backspace or whatever
 
@Wasif Earned: 2200
 
oh, I think I won a +500 Best of PPCG once
but that isn't technically a bounty with no deadline
 
5:23 PM
@ais523 you always seem to answer in community wiki, do bounties work on that
 
i should offer more bounties
 
I have a bounty net score of -75 :P
 
@ChartZBelatedly I am going to earn nearly half of you
 
@HyperNeutrino that's because TIO is timing out, and the V program works by basically echoing almost everything literally and then deleting it at the end
 
since i mostly just wanted the rep for privileges and i have more than enough now it doesn't really matter
@ais523 ah, okay. i see, thanks
 
5:23 PM
@Wasif I think so, but I don't want rep, so when I post bountybait I do it on a temporary account
 
2350 earned ATM
 
CMQ: What's your "bounty net score" (earned minus offered)?
 
see above
 
earned from bounties only, right, not in total?
 
@ChartZBelatedly does it count "will be earning" reputation?
 
5:24 PM
@ChartZBelatedly -2050
 
@Wasif Nope, current numbers
 
@ChartZBelatedly Currently -100, in a week this number should rise up to +1000
 
this only includes stuff after my account got deleted and merged
 
> Bounties are not affected by community wiki mode. When you award a bounty to an answer marked community wiki, the reputation bonus will be awarded to the user who posted the original revision of the answer.
 
cuz i don't think that carried bounties over
 
5:25 PM
From here, so yeah, you'd get the rep
 
I can only remember setting two bounties on my old account, but there were probably more that I don't remember
 
mine is net and gross 0 lol
 
@ChartZBelatedly yep, it's a pity; it means that CWing all my answers isn't quite safe when trying to stay at 11 rep, I'd also need to temporarily delete all my answers to a question if it got bountied
 
1500 of the 2900 reputation i've offered were on behalf of adam for some APL-related bounty IIRC
 
@ais523 You could always do a "give back" system, where you just set the bounty amount you received to reward answers you like/find impressive
 
5:26 PM
and I don't think you can delete an answer that's gotten upvoted too much?
 
@pxeger well you are the only zsh answerer in the site, none answers in zsh, so you don't have to spend the -50 bounties :P
 
i thought that was for questions? maybe it's for answers too
 
@ChartZBelatedly yes, although not quite; if I receive a bounty for 25 or 50 exactly, I won't have the rep to give bounties and thus would have to delete the account
 
if someone tests it i'd like to know
 
Questions can't be deleted if they have 1 or more positively scored answer
 
5:27 PM
I am not sure if I will get the Factor related bounties
@ChartZBelatedly this rules irritates me a lot
 
@Wasif there's 1 or 2 people answering often or mainly in zsh but they aren't regulars
 
and if I receive a bounty for 75, 125, 175, or 225, I have no way to give a bounty of the exact correct size to get my rep back down to 111
 
> You can't delete your own answer if it has been accepted.
@ais523 The only way you can get those is if they're auto-awarded though
 
Is there any minimum reputation requirement for talking in chat?
 
20
 
5:28 PM
20 rep
 
@ChartZBelatedly indeed, so avoiding that just means being vigilant in not answering questions while they have an active bounty, but that could happen due to race conditions
 
@Wasif why wouldn't you
 
@ais523 can I give you a bounty of that amount just to annoy you? :p
 
And most people don't just arbitrarily set bounties without informing the answerer, so if someone wants to offer you a bounty of 50 rep, you could politely decline it
 
@Wasif yes, and it's really annoying; when I come here to chat I need to log in with my account from Puzzling, rather than Code Golf, to have sufficient rep
 
5:29 PM
0
Q: Calculate the probability of getting to the target (exactly)

AnushConsider the following probability puzzle. We start with a string of bits all set to 0. At each step we choose a bit uniformly and independently at random and flip. The value your code has to compute is the probability of getting to the all 1s bit string before you get back to the all 0s bit stri...

 
@pxeger please don't
you will be annoying the rest of CGCC too, because it's them who persuaded me to have a (semi-)persistent account rather than using a new one every time
 
How did this user earn the Talkative badge having 1 rep
 
@ChartZBelatedly Correction: "You can't delete your own question if it has an answer with upvotes (even if that answer has a net zero or negative score)" or "has multiple answers (even if there are no upvotes)"
 
@rak1507 I am learning zsh
 
@Wasif That user has 1 rep because they're suspended
 
5:30 PM
codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/222514/95516 these challenges are not very interesting, as soon as someone figures out the formula, everyone else will copy it
@ChartZBelatedly oh lol, he got suspended, do you know why?
 
@ChartZBelatedly Then how did this another user, he seriously has 1 rep
 
@rak1507 No, and if I did, I wouldn't say
 
I think you're not supposed to talk about suspensions publicly
 
fair enough
 
5:31 PM
@Wasif not sure but mods can grant access manually
 
20 rep network wide
 
you all are too fast in typing
 
Unless a mod decides to grant you chat access, which is what Adam often asks for in the Orchard
 
I really wish Python had a way to define multiline functions inline like JS
 
I don't type I just stream my consciousness directly into this chat
2
 
5:32 PM
@pxeger Just use ; :P
Mar 22 at 22:24, by ChartZ Belatedly
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Personally, my brain can send and receive packets, so I don't even need a computer :P
 
@ChartZBelatedly what to do for lambda? ; don't work there
 
I don't type :P
2
 
@pxeger foo = lambda x: eval('foo\nbar')
 
@pxeger IIRC Python is TC without newline and without cheating with eval/exec, simply via defining sufficiently many nested lambdas
 
@Wasif lambda x:x+1;lambda y:y-1 ez :P
 
5:33 PM
@ChartZBelatedly nice code trolling
 
although, when I was learning Python using an IRC bot, my programs were all one-liners which exec'd a string literal, using \n to replace newlines and 1-space indentation (because as it was a one-liner the code didn't line up anyway)
 
you can use logical and/or or put two expressions in a list
 
@ais523 oh christ I was joking but you actually did that
 
to do assignment, just nest another lambda
 
@ais523 absolutely. it's just not very fun
 
5:33 PM
Or use := (Python 3.8)
 
@HyperNeutrino thanks
 
or use locals().__setitem__
 
@rak1507 I hate Python's whitespace-sensitivity so much, it just doesn't handle unusual environments at all well
 
@ais523 i believe the Turing completeness of lambda calculus is sufficient to prove this
 
@ais523 fair enough
 
5:34 PM
some of my earliest Python programs got mangled because the whitespace somehow got lost when transferring them between computers
 
> Note: if you're a moderator, none of the above apply; you can delete your own post even if it wouldn't ordinarily be allowed.
Doesn't matter for you :P
 
hence why i didn't go test it myself :P
 
CMQ: what is the most hilarious rule in Stack exchange?
 
There's no point testing most stuff on SE, just Ctrl-F in the FAQ :P
 
@pxeger that works too though if i'm going to be onelining using lambdas it's easier to just think of it functionally with minimal mutation
 
5:36 PM
@HyperNeutrino I tell you what's sufficient to prove this: you can replace every statement in Python with an expression in some form, with the exceptions of try-except, which makes it obviously turing complete
 
I find Python's statement/expression distinction annoying because it makes Pyth programs error out way more often than you'd expect from a golfing language, making it somewhat harder to work Pyth into polyglots than I'd like
 
(because random strings of characters, interpreted as Pyth, often try to put a statement inside an expression which doesn't work)
 
@pxeger actually it's probably possible to replace try-except using context managers or something from the standard library
 
recursion is also pretty easy to get around, though i don't actually know if it can be removed entirely
 
5:39 PM
is there a way to create an infinite loop in a Python oneliner (without exec) that doesn't overflow the stack? maybe some sort of list comprehension?
 
does pyth not just make it all functions with its own builtins or are you talking about $ delimited python insert stuff
@ais523 iter
 
@UnrelatedString some Pyth builtins expand into Python statements like while loops
 
directly? rip
 
yep
 
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Thanks :)
 
5:41 PM
So is Pyth part-transpiled and part-interpreted?
That seems really odd for a golfing lang
 
things were wild in the age of golfscript
 
actually which is the language with most builtins?
 
I thought it was entirely transpiled, although maybe it calls functions that are defined by the interpreter
@Wasif almost certainly Mathematica
there was that famous incident with the goat…
 
@ais523 there is a rumour that it has buliltin for goats, is it true?
 
@Wasif yes, it does indeed have a builtin to determine whether an image contains a goat or not (it's a whole suite of bulitins containing recognisers for all sorts of things, and a "caprine animal" is one of the options)
 
5:43 PM
how can i use iter to create an infinite loop
i'm not too familiar with it
 
iter(lambda: 'foo', 'bar')
 
so technically it also recognises sheep and antelopes, but it's close enough to a goat recognition builtin
 
oh lol
 
two arg iter takes a callable and a sentinel value and calls the callable until it's equal to the sentinel
 
@ais523 [*iter(dir,0)] is the shortest I can think of
 
5:45 PM
@ais523 LOL and which has the least builtins (As a production language)
 
i thought iter needed to take an object defining __iter__
 
so you can do something like iter(lambda: random.randint(1, 6), 1) to simulate rolling a dice until you get a 1
@HyperNeutrino that's 1 arg iter
 
Not joke programming languages
 
@Wasif this is awkward to define because most builtin-light practical/exoteric languages will accumulate a library over time, even if they didn't start with one
 
@Wasif maybe forth or something like that
 
5:45 PM
and it'll become a de-facto set of builtins
 
oh the tutorial i saw said both took iterable objects
lol
 
two arg iter is a callable and a sentinel
 
@rak1507 is forth a production language?
 
Forth can run off very few builtins, but production Forths will usually have an extensive number of builtins defined
 
5:46 PM
@ais523 yeah that's why I wasn't sure
 
likewise for Tcl, say
 
@Wasif yes
 
Introduction to code golf, using C#
 
maybe C preprocessor? that has very few builtins, and is arguably a production language (but it isn't Turing-complete)
@ChartZBelatedly probably best to start in a verbose language so that the golfing opportunities are easier to spot
 
maybe C even
 
5:47 PM
@ChartZBelatedly .NET has severe lack of builtins, I feel that when answering in Powershell, it dosen't even have a string reverse method
 
That website is basically a "Let's go through CGCC's easiest challenges, in C#"
 
Java doesn't seem to have a string reverse either, despite having a very large number of builtins overall
 
Although it calls us PPCG :(
 
it is from 2017
 
5:48 PM
Actually using LINQ is very costly for a code golfing answer
If we use that we get a lot of useful functions
 
@rak1507 And still references Golfscript as an example "compact" language ಠ_ಠ
 
lol
 
> esoteric languages (esolangs), designed to be extremely compact (GolfScript), to experiment with weird ideas (INTERCAL) or as a joke (LOLCODE, ArnoldC).
 
actually I'm not even sure what the most idiomatic way to reverse a string in Java is, I can't find any reversing-relating builtins in the string or array or stream classes
 
golfscript is the shortest and intercal is the least joking, obviously
 
5:50 PM
@ChartZBelatedly Is golfscript banned now? (For what reason it is not used)
 
@ChartZBelatedly GolfScript is still way shorter than things like Perl and Ruby, which are much shorter than typical practical languages
 
@Wasif it's just really bad
 
@Wasif No, but there's just so many "better" languages
 
@UnrelatedString why? don't know about it much
 
@Wasif people don't use it because if they're using golfing languages, they'd prefer to use a terser one
 
5:50 PM
i feel like maybe cjam is kinda used occasionally still
 
@UnrelatedString CJam was very used in Dennis answers
 
CJam is the "better looking cousin" of Golfscript, so anyone who would use Golfscript uses CJam instead :P
 
the main use I see of GolfScript is in GolfScript/CJam near-polyglots, for questions where being able to easily create a near-polyglot is helpful
otherwise, either you'd just use CJam instead, or else you'd use some golfing language with a better paradigm and set of builtins
 
@Wasif if you need a taste of it, the base conversion builtin is base
 
It's in the awkward space between not being well-known enough outside of golfing circles to be widely used, but also being nowhere near short enough for "hardcore" golfers to use it (as in, those going for the absolute smallest code)
 
5:54 PM
OK, apparently StringBuilder has an option to reverse a string, that's a bizarre place to put it because StringBuilder is optimized for append operations and reversing a string is about as far from an append operation as you can get
 
CMC: LTR infix 4-button (so +-×÷) calculator. ÷ can be integer or floating point division, your choice. Symbols will be those 4 exactly. You can assume the input will be well formed, and that only non-negative integers will be in the expression (though the result may be negative). 5+6×3-1÷2 should output 16
 
@ChartZBelatedly aww, that's one character off being a Jelly builtin (- rather than _)
 
@ais523 When 1 character makes your answer go from 1 byte to 5 :P
 
@ChartZBelatedly was that byte count a guess, or did you work it out in your head? :-P Jelly, 5 bytes ⁾-_yV Try it online!
 
@ais523 I came up with that exact solution :P
 
6:09 PM
I'm not sure whether doing it without eval would be more or less interesting
actually it would be horrifying because V is also Jelly's string-to-number conversion function, so you'd have to do base conversion on the codepoints of the characters in order to avoid it…
 
Sounds truly awful :P
 
a golfing war blew up on Reddit at one point so I posted a very short Jelly solution
but had to add a warning not to use it in production because it used V for a string-to-int cast
so maybe Jelly would benefit, for production use, from having a separate command for that
2
 
God, I forgot how old M is compared to Jelly :P
@ais523 TBH I'm not sure Jelly has much production use :P
 
@ChartZBelatedly why not? golfing is about learning how to communicate efficiently, and the FGITWiest golfing languages are very good at solving problems given only a specification
so I often use Jelly or Brachylog when writing small programs with easily expressed specifications
 
6:18 PM
@ais523 I agree with all of that, but perhaps one of the biggest complaints about golfing languages is that they're write-only
I don't think any software company would deploy Jelly programs in a production environment
 
@ChartZBelatedly they don't have to be, e.g. I'm sure Adám would claim that APL isn't write-only, and Jelly isn't all that far from APL; also, I've read other people's Jelly code before now
 
I suppose Jelly could reach the same (or similar) levels of usage as something like APL or J, despite claims it's write-only. I just think it's highly unlikely
 
bear in mind production APL looks more like java than golf APL
 
you can also look at languages like Charcoal which have a compressed form and a readable/writable form, with easy ways to round-trip between them
 
6:30 PM
even more interesting, J on -5 seems to output -5 in M (it outputs 1 in Jelly)
it crosses my mind that R is only useful when autovectorized because normally you can use J instead
 
@ais523 J doesn't exist in M, so it breaks the chain parsing, leading to it executing an empty chain
 
oh, I see
 
M has a lot fewer builtins :P
 
@ChartZBelatedly -1350
 
considering bringing M up-to-date with Jelly
is it worth the time investment
 
6:38 PM
It might be better to just implement symbolic math into Jelly instead
 
wait yeah that's just what M is right, so it shouldn't take much time if we just import sympy and rewrite the literal handling for jelly or smth like that
i think that should work??
 
I think so
 
yes, probably better to modify Jelly than to modify M
 
Looks like I missed a lot during lunch :\
 
I think the only real change is in parse_literal
 
6:41 PM
some of the other things might break though
not sure though
 
There's a few symbolic casts throughout the rest, but that's where most of the numbers are actually cast
 
best option: diff the current version of M against the version of Jelly that existed at the time, to try to work out what sort of changes are needed
then reimplement them against the current version of Jelly
 
The big difference actually is that M uses from sympy import *, whereas Jelly uses sympy = lazy_import('sympy'), so you'd need to find all of the sympy bits in M
 
@Wasif Possibly lisp
 
anyone else read sympy as simp-ey?
 
6:46 PM
I read it as simp-pie or sim-pie
 
i used to read numpy that way until i saw sympy and realized the py probably meant python
so i read numpy, sympy, and scipy as "num-pie", "sim-pie", "sigh-pie"
 
6:59 PM
I read them that way too
 

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