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12:01 AM
That's fun: yesterday (by UTC), a bronze badge was the only type of badge I didn't get :P
Nested lists are so annoying to work with in statically typed languages :|
@cairdcoinheringaahing Can we take the list as a string?
@user Like what?
@cairdcoinheringaahing Like the example you gave, but all enclosed in a string so you can just use regex
So '[1, "&", [[2, "|", 3], "&", 4]]'? Go ahead
@cairdcoinheringaahing I was kinda joking, but okay
12:13 AM
Write up a Jelly solution. It's 21 bytes. Not bad, difficult challenge. Check out the existing answers. What do I see? "MATL, 8 bytes. Jelly, 9 bytes"
That came out longer than I expected. APL, 29 bytes: '\[' '[", ]' '\]'⎕R'(' '' ')'
Without cheating - APL, 22 bytes: {1>|≡⍵:⍵⋄∊'('(∇¨⍵)')'}
@user I love it when not cheating is shorter :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing Unfortunately, cheating often yields better results than being honest (which is great for cheaters like me, of course :P)
12:35 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing 5 Moderation, 3 of which are gold. Guess my site goals are now: Raise 420 more flags, then win a mod election. Then, review 606 more First Posts, edit 40 more tag wikis and create a tag used by 50 different challenges
Looks like I'll have my hands full :P
> Raise 420 more flags
Correction, 419, as I just had a flag marked helpful :P
Just make a (that second o is cyrillic), and hope most people don't notice
@cairdcoinheringaahing smh
Not my fault, blame the mods for being good at their job :P
12:38 AM
@mods ffs
@user I made an edit to my square roots challenge, can you undo that downvote :p
@RedwolfPrograms how 'bout you have another downvote
because its funny
Make a constant for 69 in ash and I'll make it an upvote
@Lyxal Please don't tell me Πis XOR in Vyxal
12:43 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing no it isn't
did you even read the explanation?
What is it then?
@Lyxal Blackmail! Bribery!
@Lyxal Yeah, it wasn't very clear: "the bitwised list"
@cairdcoinheringaahing ‸ # Take bitwise XOR of the two input lists
There is a constant for 69 though, it's just two bytes
12:44 AM
@RedwolfPrograms one byte constant or no upvote
@Lyxal Oh right, I didn't even see the
Damn invisible characters
Fine, I guess I don't need a one byte constant for the square root of two
Kinda thought it was a smudge, ngl
is now 69
I'll take my +2 rep back now, thank you
12:46 AM
@RedwolfPrograms If you make 69 a one byte constant I'll downvote voting now
@RedwolfPrograms I'm checking the code page sheet to see you're not lying
+12 lol
@RedwolfPrograms +12 rep for you
Make that +10
@RedwolfPrograms I made good on my promise because you obeyed
12:47 AM
CMQ: What do your country's electrical outlets look like?
see how easy it is when people listen?
@cairdcoinheringaahing I'd make a comment about voting fraud but I've done it myself, so eh
@RedwolfPrograms like an electrical outlet
@Lyxal Hell, I bribed Redwolf into giving me an upvote so I'd get +200 in a day :P
No comment
@cairdcoinheringaahing Bah, you think that's good.
I made it so that Whispers was lotm over factor
1 min ago, by Lyxal
see how easy it is when people listen?
@Lyxal Damn, you were the reason I had to do stuff before 8am on Feb 1st?
12:49 AM
Did someone else seriously just go downvote that :/
I'm trying to get my rep to a multiple of ten
3 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing
@RedwolfPrograms If you make 69 a one byte constant I'll downvote voting now
Can you downvote three of my other posts then?
I do not like the funny numbers
sam i am
i do not like green 69 and ham
sorry just had to
@RedwolfPrograms No can do, I only have 2 votes left today
@RedwolfPrograms Can you VTD yet?
12:52 AM
Damn, I would've swapped a VTD for an undownvote :/
10k+ users: can we get some VTDs over here?
@RedwolfPrograms Yup, upvoted it again. Sorry for the downvote
No problem, my fault for thinking downvotes were -1 :p
Back to a multiple of ten!
@RedwolfPrograms Well, you could give away most of your rep through bounties and ask people to downvote you until you lose the edit privilege, then you could edit one of my answers and I would accept it, thus giving you +1 :P
1:14 AM
@JoKing (or any other mods) Could you grant chat access here to this user?
Thoughts on challenges involving generating 3d objects? There are a variety of languages and frameworks that can be used to output a 3d object, including, but not limited to, codecad. However, many 3d frameworks or game engines could also be used this way. I think there are a range of interesting challenges that could be created here, but I'm not sure whether this is allowed. Is it/Should it be? And would the standard rules work well for this?
I posted on meta and was directed here.
For reference to ^, see New Meta Posts or the linked post :)
@importhuh I'd recommend deleting your post on Meta
@importhuh I think this is a good idea. We already have text-output and graphical-output tags. I think 3d-output would be a reasonable addition
presumably 3d-output could be a .stl file or equivalent
or some rendering to any acceptable image format?
1:30 AM
Q: Generate a 3d Object?

import huhThere are a variety of languages and frameworks that can be used to output a 3d object, including, but not limited to, codecad. However, many 3d frameworks or game engines could also be used this way. I think there are a range of interesting challenges that could be created here, but I'm not sure...

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why is this question not acceptable on meta?
@DigitalTrauma IMV it's not clear enough as it is to be open on meta, and it seems like a "can I do X?" question to me, which I believe are better to be asked in chat first, then on meta if no answer is provided
If people disagree, that's fine, but I'm going to leave my VTC there
2:00 AM
anyone know J well enough to rescue conor? youtube.com/watch?v=TXBW2wp1sDw
@cairdcoinheringaahing I like that
Good query
2:35 AM
@DigitalTrauma STL for sure, maybe OBJ too?
2:47 AM
I was just reading through the old factorial challenge, and more specifically the Golfscript answer. It’s truly fascinating how people in 2011 thought that 12 bytes (10 to remove naming the function) was good for non-builtin factorial
golfscript is one of those things that just never ceases to be baffling looking back at it
The fact that Golfscript was almost entirely non-alphanumeric in commands, that it has variables and that constructs such as while used to be 5 characters long still shocks me
hindsight is 2020
@rak1507 don't mention that year
Don't jinx 2021
I'd rather see an interesting golf script answer than 47 builtins mashed together
2:49 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing non built-in should be 2 bytes max
i love seeing threads where people were talking about how they'd consider using base if it wasn't the four byte word base
I suppose people gradually stopped caring about fairness and just wanted short no matter what
which makes it a lot less interesting
@rak1507 I maintain that any Golfscript answer you see is less interesting than the Jelly, Husk or 05AB1E answer to the same question
Even CJam answers are better than Golfscript, and my God is CJam outdated
anything golfscript does cjam does marginally better
2:53 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing maybe, but all of those answers will be less interesting than the python, js, haskell, etc ones
@rak1507 Strongly disagree. I’ve never seen a Python answer that has impressively utilised Python, but I’ve seen many answers that only work/are that short due to the fact that they are in Husk, 05AB1E or Jelly
@cairdcoinheringaahing all husk 05ab1e and jelly answers are short because of being in those languages, other answers are short because of finding smart solutions
99.9% of all “impressive” Python answers on the site are only impressive because they were the first to use the algorithm. If they were in Rust, JS or Scala, they’d be just the same
sure, but I think the impressive bit of code golf is the algorithm, not mashing together 5 builtins that your favourite golfing language has
@rak1507 I argue that anyone who claims golfing languages are only “smart” because they’re naturally short has never properly golfed using a golfing language
2:57 AM
the act of golfing in a practical language can involve more insight in some ways but golflangs just have more tools to work with = more viable ways to approach a problem
And very often, more possible approaches = a cleverer approach being found
and the more viable ways there are to approach a problem, the more it takes to figure out which one is the best, and the higher the chance that it's something insane
@cairdcoinheringaahing my most upvoted answer is the one I'm least pleased with but it got upvotes because 'omg short code'
it's not a good solution, it just happens to be short because jelly has builtins for stuff
@rak1507 Upvotes =/= quality
sure you can do good golf in a golflang, but they are just inherently less impressive
2:59 AM
@rak1507 mine is because haha shakespeare
My most upvoted answer is because I wrote a program to calculate triangular numbers in Triangularity. People like dumb shit, not clever shit
lol fair enough
@rak1507 same, tho for me it was in APL
other people agree with me that golf langs have made the site worse as a whole
3:00 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing I can easily testify to that
@rak1507 Again, I believe anyone who makes this argument has never tried to get rid of that one byte you know you can get rid of, but nothing quite works out
@cairdcoinheringaahing ^
@rak1507 This argument is so close to being accurate that is pisses me off. Golfing languages aren’t the problem, FGITW is
@cairdcoinheringaahing getting rid of one byte in a golf lang is less impressive than finding a clever mathematical formula to do something in python
@rak1507 but also the actual game of esolang creation is addictive too though
Once you make one, you start to accept all golf langs
3:01 AM
for example, it really feels like this answer you just posted should be possible in 8 bytes but I cannot figure out how
People see “short code” and immediately upvote it to the top, leading to more upvotes, while clever code gets buried
@cairdcoinheringaahing ok, well that's not what I've seen someone say
@cairdcoinheringaahing short code frequently in golf langs
@cairdcoinheringaahing not necessarily
This is the highest voted post on the site
That post is, objectively speaking, bad
it's fun
3:04 AM
It doesn’t make an effort to golf its solution
and it's from 2014 so not relevant
what's the most upvoted answer from 2020?
it flies in the face of every community standard
@rak1507 So? Surely golfier posts are better on a site deidcated to code golf?
and it doesn't even try to golf within the constraints of the fun
@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm not going to argue about the culture on ppcg in 2014
I don't think anyone would say that was a great answer now
3:06 AM
My point is, that it is an awful post by our rules. But it’s fun and people like it, so it stays. That’s true for a lot of challenges. Posts that are nowhere near as good as other posts on the thread are “enjoyed” by other users, they upvote them, and now people point to a boring builtin answer, or a low-effort, high-fun Python answer as “a good answer”
Just because it gets upvotes doesn’t mean shit, to put it bluntly
if there's a culture of upvoting crap golf lang answers, it'll put people off actually making an effort
A good answer is one that shows incredible insight into how the language works, in order to save a couple of bytes. That’s language agnostic, and we can all appreciate such answers
fgitw applies because people can spend 2 minutes ctrl f-ing a golf lang source page to 'win' the challenge
@rak1507 this is just a general internet thing
Culture? That's rather "people upvote whatever answer they sounds fun".
3:08 AM
not easy to prevent at all
@cairdcoinheringaahing I think I might make a tag proposal for 3d object. Would it be better to edit my existing meta question, or ask a new one?
Most people can create an account with >10 rep and the site allows them to vote.
@importhuh Making a new meta post would be the better option
Also ^^
@cairdcoinheringaahing incredible insight isn't using ctrl f on a documentation page
@rak1507 anything that's a trivial composition of golflang builtins is a similarly trivial composition of pre-golfed practical snippets
3:09 AM
@UnrelatedString not necessarily
Also what?
@rak1507 Reputation is "how popular your answers are". Even on Stack Overflow.
it can often be golfed from there
but golflangs are not the root of fgitw
Otherwise how else are you going to reward answers? Having language experts to rate answers is completely unpractical.
@rak1507 If my keyboard could type the Jelly characters, I’d never copy-paste from the docs page
3:10 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing (you still don't install a jelly keyboard after all those years?)
@importhuh That was part of the other conversation we’re having, don’t worry about it
jelly keyboard doesn't have everything on it
@user202729 I really should, but no :P
@importhuh Isn't there already a [3d] tag?
it does have shortcuts for some stuff you can't click actually
like and C'
but there's also one character that's bugged
comes out as § whether you click it or use the combo
3:12 AM
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Jelly. The builtins are extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical golfing most of the nuance will go over a typical cgccer's head.
@rak1507 In short (pardon the pun), impressive golfing is language agnostic. Someone realising how to remove 1 byte may be more impressive in a Vyxal answer than 5 bytes in a Golfscript answer or 20 in a Python answer. However, just as often, the opposite may apply. There’s really no way of knowing until someone comes along with an answer that makes you go “Damn, that’s clever”
@rak1507 He turned himself into a golfing language, funniest shit I ever saw
everything is prone to having clever answers and having dull answers
That’s what I said, just golfed :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing the jelly bookmarklet is pretty painless to get going with considering it's a bookmarklet
Now, it’s 3:14am here, so I really should sleep :P
3:15 AM
pi o clock
@UnrelatedString I’ve gotten so used to ctrl-v, ctrl-p I’m not sure I could change at this point
Anyway, \o Gute Nacht!
goodnight interesting discussion
@user202729 I have no idea how I missed that!
א גוטע נאכט I really need to sleep ヾ( ̄0 ̄ )ノ
3:30 AM
Dang, I missed a conversation on golfing langs :/
Plumber is a golfing lang
@rak1507 Alhough if you haven't used one it may seem like using a golfing language is just ctrl+fing for a built-in that does exactly what you need, it almost never works out that way. At least to me, what makes golfing interesting is the sheer number of possible ways to approach a problem, and the skill it takes to find the right one. A golfing language gives you way more possible approaches because there are way more commands. Sure, there are a good number of challenges that (cont.)
(cont.) are trivial in a golfing language, but chances are they're trivial in any practical language. A complicated (i.e. 5+ bytes) solution in a golfing language will probably require much more skill and work than a complicated (i.e. 50+ bytes) answer in a typical practical lang
TL;DR, golfing languages let you get rid of the fluff, and focus on the parts of golfing that are fun and interesting. It's like criticizing a handyman for having a lot of tools; sure a guy with a hand saw puts in more work to cut a plank, but that doesn't mean the carpenter with a table saw has less skill.
I suppose the fundamental disagreement is on what is the interesting bit
3:49 AM
What would you consider it to be?
In my opinion whaf's interesting about golfing is finding new and interesting approaches to a problem.
and dissecting the broad ways of doing something to find weird little shortcuts through them
4:03 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing i've given them write access to the chatroom (though I always thought that anyone could access this room, since it's public?)
is there a rep requirement for chat?
At least 20.
ah. Well, looks like they have 21 now, so it should be alright anyway
This is my fourth time having 8400 rep.
Just started another bounty for an interesting language.
4:30 AM
@RedwolfPrograms what do you consider interesting?
And what do you consider new?
I'd count pretty much any language that was developed some time in the last few weeks/months (or maybe even a year), that hasn't become popular already, and isn't just a trivial BF derivative. My main goal isn't really to reward or promote certain languages, just to encourage language development and encourage the usage of newer or community developed langs.
One of the more interesting languages I've seen recently is convey. Though, I'm a sucker for 2D languages
Also, the online interpreter is pretty slick
4:50 AM
cpnvey definitely seems cool
I think that was one of the languages I gave a bounty to
Glad to see people are using it, it looked cool
I've just been busy choking on internal design decisions for my own lang
took me like a week to realize I needed an intermediate ad-hoc recursive data type
convey has a gif maker, which instantly makes it epic
5:07 AM
exponents of prime factorization are non-decreasing; prime or power of a prime; prime or power of any integer; prime or highly composite
and all of those could be made more inconvenient if instead of directly testing the value given they count the number of positive integers less than or equal to it which test true--and it could also have exceptional behavior for 0, 1, or even 2
Hatred needs to use lots of lookalike characters; not like cyrillic letters (those are boring), things like roman numeral , math , and the normal |
They all look different, but very subtly
Wait how isn't there a convey Hello World?
because boring
5:32 AM
There are some 3d languages too iirc but...
@Razetime It's rather because nobody posted it.
2 hours later…
7:23 AM
Q: Print a 10 by 10 grid of asterisks

Leaky NunBackground This is a standard textbook example to demonstrate for loops. This is one of the first programs I learned when I started learning programming ~10 years ago. Task You are to print this exact text: ********** ********** ********** ********** ********** ********** ********** ********...

^ This challenge has exactly 100 upvotes, 10 bookmarks, and 10 comments!
We need to delete some bad / duplicate answers to get the answer count to exactly 300 answers. :P
Or post 86 answers to make it 400 answers.
(It's a pity this isn't posted at 10/10 2010...)
Ok. Who upvoted this from 99 to 100? — Calvin's Hobbies Sep 30 '20 at 23:26
@2x-1 No need, post one more answer, then notice the digit sum!
@2x-1 Is 3+2+5 not 10?
7:41 AM
@Adám Gosh, I though 3 + 1 + 4 was 9. But it's turns out to be 10.
Oh, you're talking about base 9.
Ah, it may be that the answer count includes deleted answers, which I can see (due to my higher rep), but you can't.
2 hours later…
10:00 AM
@2x-1 Hehe I did
C is a golflang confirmed??
shortest code to segfault at runtime?
@JohnDvorak all I can say is I got that in two bytes of Jelly
ooh, nice
the recursion quick does
10:18 AM
python question: I have a dict called letter_map which maps letters to numbers. If I have a list of lists of letters, how can I map each one to a number using letter_map?
Is this doable using map and/or lambda functions?
Heh, if it was APL: letter_map⍎¨list
@Adám :)
"I wouldn't start from there"
Right, I'd keep a simple list of numbers and a single list of letters and then I'd do numbers[letters⍳list]
is "index of"
I feel there should be a version of APL using only Tamil letters :)
@Anush [[*map(letter_map.__getitem__,r)]for r in l]?
if we're going for actual golfiness that is
definitely not it
10:26 AM
@UnrelatedString oooh!
definitely not it?
I really like it.. what's wrong with it even for non-golfing except for the variable names?
@Anush You mean for the built-ins?
mapping __getitem__ is ...probably? a lot longer than just using bracket access in a list comprehension
but it feels so good
oh what would be more golfed?
it does feel good :)
@Adám yes
Tamil looks beautiful and it would be unusable if you can't display unicode properly
love looking up dvsm on wikipedia and getting dog vomit slime mold
@Anush Well, it only uses a handful of Greek letters (⍺∊⍷⍳⍸⍴⍵). Tamil letters are not very meaningful on their own, are they?
10:33 AM
okay yeah it doesn't support tamil
@UnrelatedString It?
the font
Oh, I've never seen that abbreviation before. DejaVu Sans Mono?
pdflatex also doesn't support Tamil
these font restrictions must be quite annoying for a lot of the world
10:52 AM
@Anush let's add the support then
been trying to make this group-by program work
not sure what's wrong
@Razetime I think you would need to do the equivalent of T2A from \usepackage[T2A]{fontenc} but for Tamil
there is xelatex which does support unicode
so everyone who wants to use unicode is supposed to use that version of latex. There is also lualatex which similarly supports unicode
@Razetime inputting as a list of characters doesn't help it either
In fact it makes it worse
what hasn't been done is adding unicode builtins to popular programming languages.
maybe we could make a challenge from this?
10:58 AM
@Lyxal so I should take a stirng?
I'll try that
@Anush Raku
raku has quite a few
but how much Tamil? :)
How can anyone resist this for "year" ? ௵
never checked lol
@Razetime no
It gives the same result
thats lu I think
11:00 AM
been a while since I wrote in Tamil
I meant like [H, e, l, l, l, l, l, l, o]
I am going to start writing ௸ for "as above"
@Lyxal oh lmao
charcoal deverbosifier is just.. great
11:02 AM
@Razetime wdym?
It's amazing!
yeah exactly
hmm.. can you work out how to write tamil in a bigger font?
I say that unironically too
௸ for example
but in BIG
@Anush you just need a vector font
11:02 AM
but do we have one?
and then scale it
yeah very likely
there's an indian type foundry
who made a bunch of high quality fonts for common scripts
@Anush so you mean make the practical languages golfing languages?
@Lyxal I didn't quite understand. Can you expand that thought?
Well if you're gonna add a single character for getting the year, someone's gonna make a sbcs version of the language
So that those one character things become a byte
11:06 AM
Those fancy things golfing languages use to make char count = byte count
Single byte coding scheme iirc
doesn't that restrict you to 256 different symbols?
but yes, why not :)
if you can work out the 256 most common Tamil words
I don't have anything against that
It'd be kinda cool
I agree!
11:07 AM
Python being able to actually complete with 05ab1e
but how would you choose the words to encode?
@Anush same way you'd chose the built-ins for a golf lang
doesn't pyth already exist
just give it an sbcs
No we mean making full python sbcs and using unicode built-ins
Unadulterated python
11:08 AM
Mixed with Unicode
To win code golf challenges
Having said that, it's unlike that the people who make python would actually do it though
What, with all their "style guides", "readability" and "pythonicness", they'd have a heart attack if one byte stuff was added
@Anush you choose the most useful and actually helpful things to do (you probably would want to make a Tamil word do something like get the permutations of a list rather than play Never Gonna Give You Up by Rick Astley)
And then, once you have a suitable list of however many commands you allocate space on your codepage for, you assign Tamil words
@Lyxal what?
that makes no sense
hmm.. so how can we pose a challenge where the answers will have as much tamil in them as possible?
Not really related to anything, but I wrote the proof of the NP-completeness of the min cost matrix permutation problem in the sandbox. Anyone to want take a look (and tell me if the proof makes sense?)
11:19 AM
the math people here aren't online yet
@Razetime see the original message I replied to
you must have rick astley in your golflang
no ifs no buts
I'll make it a two byte op
ør: Rickroll the user
I'll implement it tomorrow
nah make it a command outside the codepage so you can have a different thing reserved for the two byte op
Then people have to use utf8 for scoring
11:40 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing one more upvote will make it good, or at least leet, though
@Razetime what's it supposed to do?
@Neil I'm not razetime but it's supposed to turn something like [1,2, 2,2,2,2,2,3] into [1, [2,2, 2,2,2,2],3]
oh, I was wondering what the a was doing there, is it supposed to be q? (Even with that, you still need code for the case where the last character is the same as the first.)
(Or indeed if all the characters are the same.)
12:01 PM
@Neil ah lol
works as expected after that change
@Neil adding a space works
there should be a less dirty way to do this smh
Try it online! got it working
12:26 PM
@Anush mathematica and haskell as well
12:38 PM
you could add the space in the AtIndex call

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