English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Mitch Article 15 is prohibition of discrimination. I'm not sure what you mean by Article 15 laws.

@MattE.Эллен I don't think I've seen that film.

Personally I'm not a big fan of affirmative action and other similar kinds of positive discrimination, but that's just my opinion. I'm not even sure how these are applied in practice. In India they actually have reserved seats for the so-called Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes. That's just jargon for the people at the bottom of India's caste system. Sometimes called Dalits.

I think having reserved spaces is taking it too far.

As I recall, there were problems finding qualified people to fill those spaces.

I'm not sure if these policies are still around. India is quite good at forgetting about things.

Matt E. Эллен

@FaheemMitha those cowards in hollywood won't make it. they don't see the genius in my vision.

@MattE.Эллен Do you have a screenplay all ready?

@FaheemMitha No faces, but bodies yes.

@M.A.R. Hmm, still pretty bad.

5:21 PM

@FaheemMitha Very few supposed bike lanes in Tabriz that immediately turned into free parking lots

Indian women tend to cover up too. Except the really rich and liberated ones.

But I don't think anyone actually forces them to do so. It's a cultural thing.

@FaheemMitha Yes, that was a poor choice of words

@M.A.R. That's sad. People use bikes here, but mostly poor people. And I think it's probably fairly dangerous, but I've not tried it myself. Nor do I have plans to do so. And of course, there are no bike lanes in Bombay.

@Færd I'm describing what I have seen already happening in western societies. I'm not assigning any motives, but paraphrasing the exact things certain people in certain such groups start saying

I don't know about the rest of India. Outside the cities, using a bike is probably not a problem, because there isn't so much vehicular traffic. But Indians in general are really terrible at following traffic laws (or any laws), so it's probably not really safe anywhere.

In retrospect, I regret not using a bike in Cambridge. I could have. I didn't.

5:26 PM

@FaheemMitha I would expect there to be a few bike lanes in newer or richer parts of Tehran and probably a few sporadic events in the big cities. And my point was cycling remains so foreign to Iranians that it's not useful to aim for representation in cyclists.

Chapel Hill has quite a lot of bike usage too. Not as much as Cambridge, though. I think they had bike paths to some extent, but can't remember.

@M.A.R. Presumably they use them outside the cities. Like India, a lot of people must live outside the cities.

@FaheemMitha I'm not aware of the inhabitants of a weird secluded village being entirely different in some aspects but the general trend is even fewer people cycle in villages I think

@M.A.R. weird secluded village? What's that?

@M.A.R. If people don't use bikes in Iranian villages, that's surprising. Unless it's too hilly to make it practical.

What people love here are those freaking scooters, aka motor-bikes. They're a menace.

You have certain villages in this province that have remained so secluded from the rest of the world and the urbanization trend that follows that they speak the Turkish spoken a hundred years ago in Tabriz

@M.A.R. Oh.

5:31 PM

So I'm saying it might be such people exist but it certainly is not the norm.

@M.A.R. Ok. I see.

I dunno if the aversion is because a misconception that bikes are for kids

Or maybe it's because the roads are already dangerous for drivers and passengers.

@M.A.R. Again, either you're looking at fringe cases or you're misinterpreting them. I'm not altogether unfamiliar with"Western societies". Gimme a representative example.

We drive very unsafely for some reason compared to the rest of the world.

@M.A.R. You should visit India. Indian traffic is "interesting".

@Færd Gay Pride parade?

5:34 PM

@Færd What sort of representative example would suffice? If I find a Reddit post and link to it, that could easily prone to cherry picking and would be at best an anecdote, no? I think it's best we let this rest at this point.

@FaheemMitha No, I'm saying that people that gather around in feedback loops and 'celebrate what they are' have the tendency to move to some form of intolerance of others, whether this is a minority being oppressed or not. That's what Fard disputes; that to fight oppression, it is a necessity for a gay person to wear something that would visibly mark their sexuality from afar.

@M.A.R. I think it's unlikely anyone would want to wear something that would "visibly mark their sexuality from afar". Other than the obvious examples, of a woman dressing up, to look like, you know, a woman. And similarly for men.

It's not necessary for every individual to do that. My point is more general.

To me, a group of "pure, patriotic Americans" gathering around to celebrate their Americanness, which leads to emphasize how different non-Americans are to them, is bound to stir up some intolerance (regardless of how it's being celebrated; I know American patriotism today is marked by gun worship and so is more vitriolic than normal)

@M.A.R. There have been some recent examples of harassment via social media, which have had a sort of witch-hunty vibe. Are you familiar with the case of Richard Stallman?

@M.A.R. You're even misrepresenting my points. Why should I bother with your bad-faith takes of other people's actions. Laters.

5:40 PM

Replace Americans with females, homosexuals, heterosexuals, and any single group not in the indisputed majority

Some of it is had been connected with the #metoo movement.

And now I'm accused of bad faith. Fine, I initially accused Fard of misrepresenting Iran, so this discussion achieved nothing but MORE vitriol.

@M.A.R. Wouldn't you say it is the escalation that's the problem, rather than the initial gathering? As long as people refrain from negative behaviour towards others, I don't really see a problem in their clinging together for whatever reason.

DemonCode

u guys doing some english politics stuffs up in here?

It's different when other people are present: then glorifying the own group can be construed as negative beviour towards others.

5:44 PM

@M.A.R. that wasn't fair either, as I pointed out. I was talking about the government.

@Cerberus I'm saying that the way they choose to fight makes this difference. Whenever oppressed groups focus on the rules that oppress them, they can get results. Whenever they gather around all like "Oh yeah, I'm African-American, that's awesome, like that's really awesome", it's ripe ground for escalations like that.

@M.A.R. Maybe. But, if it doesn't escalate, do you still think it's bad?

Fard chose slavery and the abolitionist movement; that's I guess the prime example of what I'm talking about.

@M.A.R. I think a specific example of what you have in mind would help.

I do agree that focusing on fighting injustice is far more important.

5:45 PM

It was clear why things were wrong, once they were explained to people why they're wrong.

@M.A.R. The abolitionist movement? You mean, like Tom Brown? The attack on Harpers Ferry?

@Cerberus Guess not. By my own logic, the man who would walk up to a gay person 'designating' their sexuality is not the good guy either.

@FaheemMitha Wait, did I use that term wrong.

Googles

@M.A.R. That was the movement to end slavery.

@M.A.R. I do think there is a difference between labelling oneself as being part of a group and being labelled by someone else. But I do agree that self-labelling can be obnoxious; I would say it all depends on context. This includes: who is present? How small is the group? What kind of group is it? Etc.

Huh, anyway I was more specifically referring to the American efforts at abolishing slavery and the civil war.

5:47 PM

Specifically, in North America.

@Cerberus This whole thing started because of this:

6 hours ago, by M.A.R.

@Færd Well, perhaps I did not express myself clearly. IMHO any designation of sexuality is indecent, be it hetero- or homo-. We don't need people to show off their genitals, we simply shouldn't care. That's IMHO the inclusive utopia to aim for. So if homosexuals 'blend' in by not wearing outlandish clothes, that's pretty good in my opinion. (Of course, the more drastic forms of 'blending in', like marriages they're not at all interested in, are oppressive)

Somewhat associated with the name of Tom Brown. Probably the signel most high profile event to occur associated with that movement.

@M.A.R. Yes, that.

@M.A.R. It depends on how you would define "designation of sexuality"?

I'm not a huge fan of people walking around semi-naked; on the other hand, they don't do any harm, so why should I care.

A single rainbow T-shirt is non-invasive, sure.

I do think it is important that people should be free do do stuff I don't like but which doesn't harm me nor others.

5:51 PM

@Cerberus I think that's a good summary.

It's fun going to a lesbian bar and being the only man, talking to lesbian stuff; but not if they are hostile or want me gone.

> If freedom means anything, it's the right to tell people things they don't want to hear.

So Fard argues individuals should have the right to express more invasive methods to make everyone super aware of the discrimination. The right they probably should, I'm not well-versed in comparing what rights and freedoms people should be granted, but I'm saying a constant reminder of someone's sexuality is not decent.

@FaheemMitha True, though of course within reason.

@M.A.R. What did you have in mind?

Well, I got that one wrong.

> If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people things they do not want to hear.

Anyone want to guess who wrote that, without doing a search?

5:53 PM

I sounds familiar, but it could be anyone.

@Cerberus Definitely not "anyone". :-)

@Cerberus Nothing much, now that I think about it. It's not that my thoughts would affect anything, but if I were to sum up what all the fuss was about for the past few hours, Fard was arguing invasive forms or protesting oppression are noble while I argued they're not and might even hurt the cause.

So no wonder we didn't get results when it was all subjective.

Amartya Sen on India

I think the most important thing about social groups is this: people should not be treated worse just for being in a group; and people in a group should not propagate their group in negative ways.

Then I think I shifted the conversation to the same "positive discrimination" conversation that pops up here from time to time, my personal stance is clearer on that.

5:56 PM

In case anyone doesn't know, Sen is India's Economics Nobel Laureate. Also once Master of Trinity, though not while I was there.

@M.A.R. I would say it depends haha.

@FaheemMitha Ah, I did not know him.

@M.A.R. A conversation like this is pointless without actual examples.

@Cerberus Yeah, it wasn't even just about this. It was that I argued in a utopia, individuals wouldn't care about the different aspects of one another's identity, rather than shoving it in each other's faces.

And I see a paucity of examples here.

@FaheemMitha I guess.

5:57 PM

@M.A.R. I partly agree; on the other hand, it's really fun to celebrate e.g. Chanoeka.

@FaheemMitha I was going for Beecher Stowe or Lincoln or something.

Or Tom Hanks

@M.A.R. Wrong century.

No wait it was Daniel Day Lewis

@M.A.R. LOL

Just as I think it can be fun to e.g. have a gathering of black people talking about common interests.

5:59 PM

We're seeing more people standing up and saying their piece about India. Whether it will have any effect is debatable.

Sen tends to speak his mind. It helps that he's so famous he has nothing to fear from the govt. Plus, he probably doesn't live in India. I don't know.

I guess I perfectly agree with what you're saying; they're essentially an articulation of my stance on it. I'm saying where conflicts arise with regards to people's identities, people should be on the defensive, not offensive, about things they care about.

You need to spark interest in individuals that are moral but indifferent to your stance.

There was a fun interview with him some time ago, where he said that the 2016 demonetization was insane. Or words to that effect.

@FaheemMitha There's always that one person. Our media projects Khomeini as just that.

@M.A.R. Actually, I think you've linked to the wrong comment. You're talking about my quote?

He was vocal, for sure, but the revolution is probably singly attributed to his efforts. Shrug not gonna dig graves here

6:02 PM

@M.A.R. Huh? You mean your dictator? I'm confused.

Oh, you mean during the Shah's time.

@FaheemMitha The past dictator, before the revolution

In hindsight, it's obvious why people would confuse Khamenei and Khomeini. I did as a kid.

@M.A.R. Before the revolution? I'm even more confused. You do mean the Ayatollah, right?

On what happened right after the revolution, I need an unbiased source to explain me stuff, I'm really uneducated except for what I was fed as a kid

As I recall, he opposed the Shah, but had to leave Iran.

Yes

6:04 PM

So how was he a dictator?

Well, after

@M.A.R. Right, ok.

It's said his speeches readied the populace for the revolution

BTW, does anyone know why the Guardian sometimes allows comments, and sometimes not? It's a mystery.

@M.A.R. Perhaps they did.

@FaheemMitha I stopped trying to make sense of news sites a long while ago, but didn't the speaker 'close' the comment section or something? Sometimes they do that

6:06 PM

@M.A.R. No, often the comment section just does not seem to exist.

At the end of most Guardian articles. But sometimes it does.

I've never seen any indication of why.

On Youtube, for example, it sometimes says "comments switched off". Otherwise there is a comment section.

Perhaps the categorization?

@M.A.R. Just wanted to drop this and get to the rest of my nightly exercise: to me, this is not vitriol; to me, we were still in the bounds of a friendly, albeit heated-up, discussion. So no hard feelings.

@Færd OK that's great! It's hard to tell on the internet (and even IRL when I had the same sort of heated discussion with my friend)

I personally don't have the attention span to linger on a discussion long enough to hate it or a participant in it. At most a few hours of bad mood and then I just move on.

It's great when discussions on these sensitive topics happen civilly and in a controled manner.

I should get back to studying. BBL

@M.A.R. If you mean that comments are allowed, or not, depending on some category, then perhaps. But I don't know what those categories are, in that case.

So Texas is breaking voting records. It's been an interesting year. And not over yet.

@Knight "I'm curious, have you stopped kicking puppies?"

"Just being devil's advocate here, wouldn't a rational argument take into account the opportunity costs of self-employment instead of slavery, assuming they're well taken care of"

"Say what you will about Hitler, but he was a vegetarian and non-smoker."

CowperKettle

6:21 PM

Interesting. Iran has a nice cooler weather compared with neigboring regions

Probably because of higher elevation.

@Færd Yeah. Compared to other countries in the region, Iran is much more ethnically diverse and also without violent confrontation.

But I wonder if the diversity trickles up to government. Like I wouldn't expect any (former) Afghans to be involved, but maybe some Kurds or Arabs (from the southwest), and definitely I'd expect some Azeris.

@FaheemMitha Doesn't Article 15 encourage setting of quotas? (which is what I think @Cerberus would end up labelling 'positive discrimination)

@Mitch I don't know. You mean the Article 15 in the constitution? Perhaps.

indiankanoon.org/doc/609295

@FaheemMitha I don't know. All I hear with respect to 'Article 15' and 'India' is quotas for different castes.

> (4) Nothing in this article or in clause ( 2 ) of Article 29 shall prevent the State from making any special provision for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes

If one wants to construe that as encouragement.

@Mitch It's not in the Constitution itself. The quotas, I mean.

I don't know anything. I'm just relating associations I hear.

6:32 PM

@Mitch Ok. I think these are just laws that different govts have passed. Mostly to get votes, I think.

eg 'Article 15 says something about trying to stop the caste system', 'something something quotas for dalits something something'

Indian politicians are mostly gangsters, and don't tend to do things because it's the right thing to do, or because it will help people.

@Mitch That link above has the entire text, I think. It's not very long.

thanks

anyway, the existence of Article 15 could be taken (and I think is and has been taken) as encouragement of quotas In India.

@Mitch I wouldn't call it encouragement, personally.

But the Indian govt has wide latitude to do what it likes in practice.

And it mostly doesn't have an involved citizenry, like in some places.

just as a check about reality, there are caste quotas in India, right?

6:40 PM

@Mitch Yes, like I said, for scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.

Oh, you mean currently? I don't know. There certainly used to be.

And they were quite problematic.

Is that the nomenclature: dalits = scheduled castes -and- scheduled tribes?

and where do muslims fit into that system?

Apparently, yes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India

@Mitch Something like that. I don't know exactly. And those are all Hindus by definition.

@Mitch As far as I know, they don't. But it's a good question.

@Mitch I put two maps below the comment you're replying to there, to try to answer that question :)

I mean, I don't think there are any reservations for Muslims, except in specifically Muslim instututions. I don't think the govt has reservations for Muslims.

Actually, the people who work for me are Dalits. But they converted to Buddhism to get out of the caste system. At least, that's what my mother said.

I've never checked on that.

@FaheemMitha there's a small problem in the US in a lot of places where Indians are common (like in engineering) that some caste divisions in India are being reproduced in the workplace in the US, and that lots of (former?) dalits are being discriminated against by non-dalit managers.

@Færd The first map was -very- hard to read. I couldn't tell which big cities were in which administrative areas and if the darkness of color was about # -per population-. If the big dark area in the middle included Qom, that would make sense to me.

6:53 PM

@Mitch I read an article about that recently, yes.

So then the question would be whether minorities have proportional representation as mullahs (or religious people in Qom, which is what I naively think is the source of the higher officials in Iran)

@FaheemMitha Most Indians (lower castes) are more than happy to lose their caste identity in the US and so it's dispiriting for them to see it again. Another problem is that US people , though maybe aware of the caste system, just have no idea how it touches specific people.

@Mitch Do you have personal experience of this?

No.

@Mitch Some Azeris yes, but I'm not sure about Kurds and Arabs. Probably not.

@Mitch Ok. The way you described it, I thought maybe there were some people you knew.

The Indian caste system is a very old and very horrific thing. And mostly alive and well in India.

7:04 PM

@Mitch You could argue mullahs are a different system altogether. Very powerful, and they hold some key positions too (ones that don't seem like they would need expertise). Government officials are a different bunch.

@FaheemMitha I've known many, but not in enough concentration. but then also, it never occurred to me that it would affect individuals here in the US.

I have no idea about the diversity in powerful mullahs, but people from every city can become a mullah.

@Mitch You've known many what?

CowperKettle

7:34 PM

Bigfoot is often mistaken for Sasquatch, and Yeti never complains!

SmokeDetector

7:58 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword in link text in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (168): Education List or Educations List? by Ellis Leigh on english.SE

8:42 PM

@FaheemMitha Many Indians. The context of what we were speaking.

@M.A.R. Oh

@Mitch Hm.

have you been to India?

8:58 PM

@skillpatrol I've watched some Bollywood movies, and hence I consider myself an expert on Indian culture.

2

close enough

9:11 PM

@Robusto yeah that is delightfully puzzling. Not only did it not need to be cut off at all, but on top of that, if you're gonna cut it off, why cut it off there of all places.

It's not the end of a thought, it's not the end of a sentence, it's not the end of a word, it's not even a round number of seconds or anything. It is completely inexplicable.

in This Is Fine, 2 hours ago, by Yuuki

Texas is leading the US in voter turnout right now?

I understand people getting bored with watching a video, and I understand people getting bored with making a video, but this person had to do neither. They only had to upload the full video that they already had.

Frankly, I would put this in some kind of museum. It is somehow very exemplary of the times we live in.

times are a changin'

@Knight I'm curious, how could you believe something that stupid?

And yes, I wanted to go with something like "how long is your penis" or "what's your mom's bra size" first, but resisted.

a curious mind?

9:17 PM

No, just a very polite one!

better than the opposite

There are no tricks to being polite. The only way to be actually polite is to be actually polite.

Or, as nohat put it once, "sugarcoating an offensive idea does not make it any less offensive".

it can be faked

NOU

people put lipstick on pigs all the time

9:20 PM

Well yes. But no amount of lipstick will turn "what's your skin color" or "are you a Jew" into an appropriate question.

Go prefix that with "I'm curious".

And, like, being a Jew isn't even an offensive idea at all. Many people are Jews.

I'm curious, well yes.

I'm pretty sure Knight was being a bit facetious

Yes I was wondering about that, what with the smiley.

But I checked the context and found not enough.

I am just curious, don't get offended, are you Jewish

Were you curious or polite?

At any rate, I am not typing this for any one person.

I am speaking truth for the benefit of the humanity at large.

@M.A.R. I am curious, how's that any of your business?

9:23 PM

Thank you. The world is a better place now.

@RegDwigнt I'm curious, being polite is curious but curious isn't polite

Now I want some apple jews.

I'm not curious at all about your apples.

Yesterday I was curious about "apple of the eyes". Who came up with that analogy.

Curiosity has its own reasons for existing

@skillpatrol the interesting thing is, why I'm using that question as an example, is because it's a very common question on Xbox Live. And with no prefixes whatsoever.

Like how do pupils look like apples at all.

9:26 PM

You log into a multiplayer game with voice chat, you ask what the plot of the game is, someone will invariably reply with "are you a Jew".

So it seems perfectly societally acceptable with no qualifiers.

Microsoft are making a ton of dosh with it.

"are you girl"

"a/s/l"

2

No, that's a stupid question. I did say Xbox Live. No guhrls there.

@M.A.R. you misspelled "a/o/b".

I dunno no art of butt but Persians add a "bede" (meaning 'give' but more demanding) to make it sound more friendly.

How that works is beyond my comprehension

@M.A.R. in German that's literally what the part of the body is called. Eye apple. First mention in print in the 12th century.

Augapfel

Noun: Augapfel m (genitive Augapfels, plural Augäpfel)

eyeball
apple of somebody's eye

> From Middle High German ougapfel, from Old High German ougapful, augaphul, from Proto-West Germanic *augapl, equivalent to Auge (“eye”) +‎ Apfel (“apple”). Cognate with Old English ēagæppel (“apple of the eye; pupil”).

Like, how is apple worse than ball.

That's like calling your arms armsticks for no reason.

@RegDwigнt Well, one of my experiences I associate with apples is taking a delicious bite with a . . . crunch (?) sound.

9:32 PM

Well, one of my experiences I associate with balls is punching them with a crunchy sound.

It's hard to imagine to do that with eyes or balls

@RegDwigнt Um, not gonna judge that, probably an owl thing

We should start calling fingers fingersticks. Then fish fingers would be fish finger sticks. Bringing it a step closer back to German, where they are just fish sticks.

Then we can just drop the fish, like we did from the recipe, and eat sticks.

Well, NGL, my first impression of German is it makes more sense

Well, German is just English with proper English words and proper English grammar.

Robusto

@M.A.R. Unfortunately, that's all it makes. And who wants to make sense all the time? Certainly not me.

@RegDwigнt A puzzlement, to be sure.

Viola Smith Has Passed Away

9:39 PM

Germans opened a branch in England, then England opened a branch in the US and Australia. Franchises just never work.

You want something done right, you do it yourself.

@Robusto I've tried to search for the whole thing, but I don't even know the reporter's name and Gould gave like a million interviews, and then I remembered that I'm lazy.

►

tchrist

10:30 PM

@RegDwigнt Why don't Frenchies ever work?

Kansas counties with mask mandates had half the rate of new infections.

10:55 PM

@tchrist because Corona. They are literally not allowed to leave their homes anymore. For the second time this year. Written permit for every time you want to bring out the bins. Let alone for going on an adventure heading for some shiny office building to do la-dee-dah.

@M.A.R. see, that's exactly why you might be a good mod now, and would probably have been a horrible mod back then.

Never give power to the very people who seek it.

The Ancient Greeks had it all figured out. You don't want to go into politics because you're a blacksmith or a housewife? Well, that's exactly why you belong in politics.

You want to run for president? That's the dead giveaway right there that anyone would make a better president than you.

Imagine the world being run not by politicians but by, like, nurses and cashiers and binmen and musicians.

A rule of the people. We should make a word for it.

Possibly something with Greek.

@tchrist such a pity it had to be Kansas. Nobody has ever given two shits about it, and for most people this is not the time to start.

KannE

11:17 PM

Is the nominalized adjective "the sick-poor" or "the sick poor" common in Europe? Or just among Catholics? Or more like good works jargon? I was watching a video, and the American put a pause in it (said "the sick, poor, and insane" vs. "the sick-poor and insane"), so he wasn't that familiar with it either, and he's supposed to be a healthcare expert.