TeX, LaTeX and Friends

barbara beeton

12:00 AM

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz -- Interesting! Thanks.

David Carlisle

8:10 AM

@barbarabeeton have you tried the mobile site? scroll to the bottom and click mobile...

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer First step of color mixing is done: I'll try to cover the case where colorspace errors next. (First, just give a controlled error, then once DeviceN is available, use that.)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I just had to do a reset --hard ;-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Ah, yes, that would be true

David Carlisle

8:41 AM

@UlrikeFischer ! LaTeX Error: File `ARTICLE.cls' not found.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle !!

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle curious. I was quite sure that Karl had implemented case insensitive search.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I think that is only in the paths not guarded by !! and looked up in ls-R (but I forget the details)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle ah, that's possible.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes if I put article.cls in the current directory then it is found (as ARTICLE.cls)

@UlrikeFischer I guess that's what @JosephWright's extensive explanation above was saying

Ulrike Fischer

8:47 AM

@DavidCarlisle ;-). But this means that \includegraphics{example-image-A} still fails?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer ! LaTeX Error: File `example-image-A' not found.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle pity, I congratulated Karl for no reason then: tug.org/pipermail/tex-live/2018-April/041381.html ;-(

@DavidCarlisle what happens if you use in the babel options the wrong casing, e.g. \usepackage[uSEnglish]{babel}?

Paulo Cereda

quack

@UlrikeFischer yet another successfull delivery :)

Ulrike Fischer

@PauloCereda ? which one?

David Carlisle

! Package babel Error: Unknown option `uSEnglish'. Either you misspelled it
(babel)                or the language definition file uSEnglish.ldf was not fo
und.

@UlrikeFischer ^^

Paulo Cereda

8:58 AM

@UlrikeFischer a duck in Italy :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda feed the hungry

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle as espected. Well I guess babel will either have to rename its file or use some lowercase command somewhere.

AlexG

Running latex on this still fails:

\documentclass[dvisvgm]{article}

\begin{document}
test
\end{document}

! LaTeX3 Error: Control sequence \__draw_backend_color_rgb_cmyk:n already
(LaTeX3)        defined.

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

I don't think I'm happy with input becoming case insensitive :(

4

Paulo Cereda

9:06 AM

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz oh

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz /duck hug

I miss mr. rabbit! <3

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@PauloCereda You don't have to, I'm still here, just don't have as much free time as I had as a student :)

Which is also the reason why there still is not a single commit in expkv-opt, normally I would've released it by now.

Ulrike Fischer

@AlexG hm. Yes the command is there twice. We need more dvisvgm testfiles <-- @JosephWright

Paulo Cereda

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz ooh mr. rabbit is here <3

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@UlrikeFischer just use the one provided by @AlexG directly :)

AlexG

@UlrikeFischer Btw, it would be nice to have some kind of a hybrid driver for dvisvgm which uses PostScript for drawing and colour as dvisvgm parses PostScript with the help of libgs.

Joseph Wright

9:15 AM

@UlrikeFischer Yes, I'd been thinking that

@AlexG I'll sort it

@UlrikeFischer Probably move the driver tests to a specific config then add dvisvgm as an option

@UlrikeFischer Seen the edit to tex.stackexchange.com/questions/124291/…?

Ulrike Fischer

@AlexG I have up-to-no idea about what dvisvgm actually needs. But if you make a suggestion which parts of the dvips driver can/should be used, I don't think it would be a problem to generate a "dvisvgm-ps" backend.

Joseph Wright

@AlexG As @UlrikeFischer says, it's mainly a question of having a spec: I don't know what works in dvisvgm (cf. dvipdfmx, which explicitly lists which PS operations are supported)

David Carlisle

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz neither was Karl but after 3 decades of complains from windows and mac users he finally cracked and implemented it.

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright no, but he pinged me in another question (where I had written, that the package doesn't work). But basically it is not something that can be fixed easily. We need the shipout hooks in latex-dev and a way to load and activate at least optionally the pdf stuff before the documentclass. Then I could release a new tagpdf version and he could play around with it as base and patch document commands.

AlexG

9:31 AM

@UlrikeFischer , @Joseph Thanks for proposing this. I'll think about it, but maybe M. Gieseking knows better. By now, DVI with complex PSTricks (and TikZ with PS driver) content convert smoothly to SVG, Only Ghostscript's own (and still changing) transparency-related PS operators aren't supported yet.

Joseph Wright

@AlexG The TikZ driver uses a mix of PostScript and SVG: I've been modelling after that for color and drawing

@AlexG For example, should stroke/nonstroke color in drawings be done using PS or SVG ... the latter is a sense either as it is 'interesting' in dvips/PS

cis

10:02 AM

I have a problem:

What could I do here?

Joseph Wright

10:46 AM

@UlrikeFischer Having fun with dvipdfmx?

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@DavidCarlisle So let's summarize: Windows and Mac do something wrong, so we make LaTeX do it wrong as well. That's not a sane solution, that only adds to the problem.

6

(I understand Karl, though)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright ;-). I'm spending quite some time with backends I don't use ;-). But on the plus side: I discovered because of this, that we were just breaking the shading in pgf.

David Carlisle

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz that was more or less Karl's description of the change on the texlive list, yes:-)

@cis does fontforge have an option to remove overlaps automatically? an outline font (assuming you are not just using an svg emoji font) needs non-overlapping outline.

Paulo Cereda

Meanwhile, we Linux people don't have any problems? :)

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda You've got a Mac too ...

Paulo Cereda

10:55 AM

@JosephWright oh no

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Just looking here at dvisvgm: we do have some tests, so I wonder why the issues got missed

@PauloCereda Looked at Big Sur?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright was going to mention that. :) Pretty cool, as well as the big leap (again) with ARM. Not sure about the future, so let's see. I am still stuck with High Sierra, since my hardware is not supported...

Ulrike Fischer

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz well as you can see by the various \MakeUpperCase, \MakeTitleCase, \MakeSentenceCase commands and layout requirements "put this in Versalien" many people don't view a and A as different chars, but as the same char with a different look. And the OS interface here to "normal" users, and not to programmers.

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright I already know I can have a complete Fedora install in that machine, so when everything stops working, I will have a nice Linux box with an overpriced hardware, yay. :)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer It's a font change only ;)

Ulrike Fischer

10:59 AM

@JosephWright I think I already mentioned it: I sometimes miss a test failure when it is too dramatic: then nothing gets created but there is no report at the end.

Paulo Cereda

Names for people who read a lot:

6. Bookworm (English)
5. Book flea (Indonesian)
4. Library mouse (Romanian)
3. Read-rat (German)
2. Ink drinker (French)
1. Reading horse (Danish)

In Portuguese, we have the same as in Romanian, #4. :)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright but in this case I think it simply passed over the error. I mean if I add \error in the preamble before the \START all tests pass nevertheless. I'm not quite sure how to get around this.

@PauloCereda we have have Bücherwurm (bookworm) too.

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer ooh

Is there a Büchente?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Trying something now

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright ooh is it a new ice cream flavour?

@UlrikeFischer ^^

Ulrike Fischer

11:08 AM

@JosephWright we could perhaps mark some tests as "have to return without error".

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer That's possible, but here I have a simple plan: I'm going to adjust a bit to check loading of the backend

@UlrikeFischer Probably we do need more test files for l3draw

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I think it would be useful. Sometimes you really want to know if the code compiles without error and not only if the result is okay because TeX recovered.

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@PauloCereda orangeandgreen.at/quietschente-buecherente

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz oh my, I almost got it! <3

German is starting to make a lot of sense

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@PauloCereda :)

Paulo Cereda

11:16 AM

@DavidCarlisle ^^

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz so I think Bücherer is book reader?

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@JosephWright a test duck: github.com/samcarter/tikzducks/blob/master/duckpond/lt3duck.tex

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright and while it will be good it dvipdfmx improves the color support, I wonder how pgf should then adapt its backend. How should pgf detect which dvipdfmx version is used and so know which backend code is needed? Probably the user will have to provide the info?

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@PauloCereda unfortunately no so easy :)

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz oh no

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Has to come from the user: unlike dvips, we can't rely on PostScript to help out

Ulrike Fischer

11:29 AM

@JosephWright the attachfile package draws the icon for the appearance dictionary with low-level pdfliterals. Some week ago I tried to replicate this with l3draw backend commands. It more or less worked, only for two operators I couldn't identify the corresponding commands and had to use literals (and I will have to adapt the color part now). The result is here around line 550 github.com/latex3/pdfresources/blob/test-new-hooks/newpackages/…

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer I'll take a look :)

@HenriMenke Could you check that the Git version of l3backend sorts the issue? If so, I'll update CTAN (I've also extended testing a little to help)

@UlrikeFischer I see you are doing everything at the backend ... hmm

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright well as I wrote: the original code was very low-level code, basically (in attachfile2) \atfi@GSAVE 0.75 \atfi@SETGRAYSTROKE 0 \atfi@SETFLAT and I only translated "verbatim". I only wanted to see if I can identify everything and get a bit used to the backend commands (and also not spent much time trying to figure out how it translates in normal draw commands). It can be used in test files, but it is not really meant as serious code.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Cool: I'm working on it :)

Ulrike Fischer

11:44 AM

@JosephWright I should look if the new color export code makes this part easier.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Not merged to master yet ;)

@UlrikeFischer OK, I see for the Bézier curves that attachefile uses v/y operations, whereas l3draw (and pgf) always uses c with three points. At the 'user' end, it's all done using arcs/circles anyway

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright yes, I was quite sure that one can translate this into c, but didn't want to do the math ;-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer It's just a question of duplicating coordinates: no maths involved!

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

12:07 PM

@UlrikeFischer but, programmers are normal users... :)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I have v and y operators with four coordinates each. How does this translate to \__draw_backend_curveto:nnnnnn which takes six coordinates? Which coordinates are duplicated?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer I'll check in a second: I was looking up i, which apparently is 'flatness'

@UlrikeFischer X Y m A B C D v -> X Y m X Y A B C D c; A B C D y -> A B C D C D c

@UlrikeFischer ^^^ with X, Y, A, B, C, D as coords, m, v, y, c as PDF operations

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I will try, but I need to adjust some code first - someone removed \color_parse:nN.

Joseph Wright

12:22 PM

@UlrikeFischer I've tested the y change, just about to do the v one, using the original from attachfile

@UlrikeFischer All works at the level of hacking the PDF literal directly (I've fully tested now)

@UlrikeFischer Perhaps we need a draw interface for i: it's not one that pgf seems to cover

@UlrikeFischer Were those the only operations?

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright you mean the pdf operations? i,v, and y were the only in this example that didn't translate directly.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Cool

@UlrikeFischer So the only one with no interface is i, as v and y can be covered by c (though I wonder if I should try to 'compress' c where possible

cis

12:50 PM

"does fontforge have an option to remove overlaps automatically?"

yes, got it under
element -> overlap -> removal
found.
However, it doesn't seem to be easy to get rid of.

By the way:

Does anyone know the preview key at Fontforge?

I'm looking like a stupid and find nothing. For everyone, including the manual, this seems like a matter of course. :(

Ulrike Fischer

1:15 PM

@JosephWright the new color code is cool. All this complicated code shrinked to a two liner:

   \exp_args:No\color_export:nnN {\l__atfi_annot_color_tl}{space-sep-rgb}\l_tmpa_tl
    \exp_args:No \__draw_backend_color_fill_rgb:n {\l_tmpa_tl}

Joseph Wright

1:58 PM

@UlrikeFischer WE aim to please

@UlrikeFischer Looking forward to your formal review ;)

Paulo Cereda

2:10 PM

@JosephWright you are mean?

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Nah

@PauloCereda looking forward to TUG2020?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright I haven't started to prepare my two talks. :) You?

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda I'm thinking about mine when I go cycling ...

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright ooh l3cycling

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda :)

Paulo Cereda

2:14 PM

@JosephWright I don't get it. We need to record stuff or present live?

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda I think the preference is for pre-recording

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Oh.

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda I'm looking at is as a dry-run for my day job: we'll be looking at something similar next academic year

Paulo Cereda

Then why the Zoom thingy? :)

@JosephWright Welcome! In today's episode of 'Blowing up things with Joseph', we will mix these two highly unstable liquids from your typical chemistry table...

5

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda For the discussion, questions, etc., I guess: it's all a new thing

Paulo Cereda

2:17 PM

@JosephWright we could set up a IRC room and pretend it's the 70s. :)

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda that is hard as all the normal round @ get replaced by _

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@PauloCereda wait, IRC isn't used anymore?

Paulo Cereda

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz oopsie

@DavidCarlisle ooh let's \makeatletter it.

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I found a typo in one of the command names. Does that count?

Joseph Wright

2:19 PM

@UlrikeFischer :)

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@PauloCereda I'm sure I was in an IRC a year ago and discussed about the development of one of my favourite FF add-ons.

Paulo Cereda

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz ooh

barbara beeton

3:32 PM

@DavidCarlisle -- Nice suggestion, and appreciated, but it suffers from the same restrictions re voting, adding comments or answers, and is rather harder to read, at least on laptop. (I don't have access to an otherwise suitable mobile device unless I steal Gordon's phone.)

Ulrike Fischer

5:27 PM

@PauloCereda ^^^^ living in our bathroom

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer ooh

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

5:48 PM

@UlrikeFischer what a strange place to read a book

Ulrike Fischer

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Bücherenten read everywhere.

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

6:04 PM

First simplekv gets faster than me, then I take a look at the sources and see that it stole my space stripping macro (which I stole from expl3) without giving any attribution whatsoever :(

Werner

6:15 PM

So.... I haven't been around for a while, but notice that Schrodinger's Cat is MIA. What happened.

Paulo Cereda

@Werner Miami International Airport? Oh wait

/ducks

Werner

@PauloCereda :D

data.stackexchange.com/tex/query/1255714

Shows a "Last Access" date of June 21, 2020.

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

6:37 PM

@Werner someone opened that box?

@JosephWright wow, I never would have thought that writing a package like pgfopts is so boring that I actually just don't want to spend any time to work on it (while expkv was fun to write, expkv-opt really isn't).

Werner

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Ha ha ha ha!

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@Werner it also shows an interesting "About me" section which might hint at what could've happened.

Werner

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Yeah.

Paulo Cereda

7:13 PM

@JosephWright could you pin the announcement for us, please? :) tex.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/8599/…

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz LOL

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

7:31 PM

@PauloCereda thanks for mentioning it here, haven't seen it yet :)

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

8:33 PM

@UlrikeFischer tex.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/8600/… thanks for being a contra-argument for me :(

Rmano

@PauloCereda auch. I will be out (trekking in Asturias) just the days of the TUG (and following week) . Do you think it would be OK to register nonetheless? Maybe to have access when I'll be back?

yo'

9:00 PM

@PauloCereda We have a book moth

Ulrike Fischer

9:10 PM

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz i added a comment.

barbara beeton

@Just_A_Man -- I've read your question on the meta thread, but am unable to comment or answer there. I'm disappointed that you find TUG too large and impersonal. It's really smaller than you might guess: not quite 1100 members at last count. But I understand your preference to recognize a helper directly, while remaining anonymous. Take a look at the TUGboat issues posted online; all but the most recent issue are open to all. How about an anonymous letter to the editor asking for suggestions?

2

Ulrike Fischer

9:25 PM

@JosephWright this here is not quite doing what I expect. Should it already work?

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{l3color}

\begin{document}
\ExplSyntaxOn
\color_set:nnn {myA}{rgb/cmyk}{0.3,0.3,0.3/0.3,0.3,0.3,0.3}
\color_set:nnn {myB}{cmyk/rgb}{0.3,0.3,0.3,0.3/0.3,0.3,0.3}
\color_set:nn  {myC}{myA!30}
\color_show:n {myC}
\color_set:nn  {myD}{myB!30}
\color_show:n {myD}
\ExplSyntaxOff
\end{document}

barbara beeton

9:42 PM

@yo' -- "Book moth" -- does that read or eat books?

yo'

@barbarabeeton that's a good question, but the word is used to describe an avid reader :)

barbara beeton

@yo' -- Figures. Well, "devour" could also be used in both senses in the context.

yo'

@barbarabeeton well, bookworm is really similar way of thinking to our knihomol

anyway, it's organ-playing time, then I need to prepare stuff for the weekend and then I'm off to bed, so see you another time!

barbara beeton

@yo' -- There are actual bookworms, that leave little holes through the pages of old books; they look very like the holes made by shipworms in the timbers of old wooden ships. (The latter require salt water, and can be exterminated by sailing said ships into fresh water, which is why Baltimore became a valuable port -- it's beyond the reach of the salt concentration required by the little borers. More than you wanted to know.)

Henri Menke

10:13 PM

@JosephWright No errors on the latest master. Thanks for fixing.

Ulrike Fischer

@barbarabeeton Having been present at quite a few DANTE meetings and at the TUG Conference 2018 in Rio Bär had been planning to go to Rochester this summer. Now he is very disappointed but accepts the inevitable. All the same he would very much like to be officially given observer status at the online conference. He already has a t-shirt and is prepared to include it in his BEARWEAR fashion line.

Does anyone have friends in high places who might help him?

4

Just_A_Man

10:25 PM

@barbarabeeton Barbara, you also belong to the folks who helped me out. Is there a particular TUG issue I should pay attention to? Moreover, since you asked for a letter to the editor, I will prepare one, but, perhaps, after collecting enough thoughts here at meta.tex.se.

barbara beeton

@UlrikeFischer -- Let me see if I can put in a few words. (I believe that Bär is in a photograph from a meeting, sitting on your shoulder.)

Ulrike Fischer

@barbarabeeton He was sitting on the top of the chair next to me -- much safer ;-)

barbara beeton

@UlrikeFischer -- Yes, but I'm thinking of a group photo taken outside; no chairs. Let me think some more ...

Ulrike Fischer

@barbarabeeton ah yes, there was a photo too.

barbara beeton

@Just_A_Man -- The proceedings issue from the 2019 Palo Alto meeting (tug.org/TUGboat/Contents/contents40-2.html) has some interesting items from TeX old-timers. The issue before that (tug.org/TUGboat/Contents/contents40-1.html) is pretty typical of a "regular" issue.

2

@UlrikeFischer -- Try this: tug.org/TUGboat/tb36-2/tb113photos.pdf on the last page is a picture with you i the front row, and I think you're holding Bär in your hands.

3

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

10:44 PM

yo'

11:11 PM

@barbarabeeton wow! That's a good find!

barbara beeton

@yo' -- Though it's not the one I was looking for. (Aren't you supposed to be exercising your fingers?)

yo'

@barbarabeeton I was. Now I'm supposed to get my stuff ready for tomorrow afternoon.

barbara beeton

@yo' -- Okay. And after that, sleep well.

yo'

However, I found a nice song about a very said story of a very bold woman being judically murdered by the communist shits 70 years ago. It caught me unprepared, so I'm sitting here, listening to the song again and again and crying like a little boy.

Milada Horáková

Milada Horáková (née Králová, 25 December 1901 – 27 June 1950) was a Czech politician. She was a victim of judicial murder committed by the communist party on fabricated charges of conspiracy and treason. The verdict of her trial was annulled in 1968, and she was fully rehabilitated in the 1990s and posthumously received the Order of Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk (1st Class) and Order of the White Double Cross (1st Class). == Early life == Dr Horáková was born Milada Králová in Prague. At the age of 17, in the last year of the First World War, she was expelled from school for participating in an anti...

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