/dev/chat

11:13 AM

Sometimes I just want to answer questions with "No, that's impossible to do on Unix". Unfortunately, it's rarely impossible to do whatever they want to do.

Stephen Kitt

@Kusalananda right, perhaps “Don’t. Just... Don’t.” should be a valid close reason ;-).

terdon

12:17 PM

Why, hello Mr Foot, pleasure to meet you. My name is Mr Gun.

Isaac

3:11 PM

Somebody here said:

Apr 30 at 20:49, by Kusalananda

I believe in depth over width when it comes to knowledge. Someone with deep knowledge develops robust software. Someone with broad but shallow knowledge develops flimsy code that won't survive very long.

But I am two minds about that. Yes, I subscribe to the idea that it is better to get the "opinion" of an excellent expert (depth) on a subject that the "extended analysis" of a newbie (shallow),
But I am also equally aware that for example Isaac Newton worked in math (Calculus), optics (colors from prisms), astronomy (Law of Universal Gravitation), physics (Laws of motion), while also being a student of Biblical history and alchemy, while serving as president of the Royal Society of London and master of England’s Royal Mint (coins).

So, having a wide array of interests doesn't seem to be a problem, at least not for Sir Isaac Newton or Leonardo DaVinci (art, war, bridge building, etc.).

As I already said somewhere else: There are more colors than black and white.

Jeff Schaller

Perhaps we don't all have the abilities of Sir Isaac Newton, and could be more productive in a certain field by studying that field more deeply? Knowing a substantial amount of physics probably doesn't hurt a programmer, but also probably doesn't create noticeably better code.

Kusalananda

@Isaac Of course, but you can't seriously compare the geniuses of the 1400 and 1600 centuries to the average software developer of today?

Jeff Schaller

Not to pick on this person in particular, but judging the average programmer via Stack Overflow makes for a pretty low bar

0

Q: Computer networks

The data received along with error correcting code is 1100 1001 0100. Using Hamming Error Correcting Code, show whether the received data has any error. If any error what is the error bit and show the actual data received.

Kusalananda

There are certainly geniuses alive today too that are able to master a wide array of disciplines, but everyone alive is not a genius.

Isaac

3:27 PM

As Sir Isaac Newton said himself: If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.

I do not think that we need any comparison, nor that we are giants ourselves, but we still can stand on the shoulders of giants.

I am just giving a couple of data points that makes the issue more than either depth or wide. More colors than black and white @Kusalananda

Jeff Schaller

certainly, be interested & be curious, but, -- not speaking for Kusalananda -- be good at your job by being very knowledgeable about it

Isaac

Sure @JeffSchaller But I like to say it in another way: Work on what you are really interested in and enjoy getting better everyday.

Kusalananda

@Isaac Also, if you look back on the original discussion, I proposed that to be able to do things (work with, etc.) that you enjoy doing, you have to sometimes take in knowledge that you have no interest in, to support your knowledge of the thing that you're dealing with. That, I believe, was how that discussion started.

I believe the example was having to take classes in programming.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I like it!

Isaac

The quote of what you said has nothing to do with that other exchange between you and me. @Kusalananda (Please follow the link given by the date to see that that quote comes from an exchange you had with Tim, not me).

I also believe that the discussion about taking the good and the bad together had ended. I think that is like friendship, there are always aspects of a friend which you would like to change but you have to accept, as those come with the whole of "your friend".

Just that that quote was marked as favorite (on the right side of the chat page) and I wanted to add some additional data points.

Kusalananda

3:46 PM

@Isaac Depth of knowledge does not mean knowledge about one singular thing. It means knowing about the thing in its context.

Isaac

@Kusalananda It is you who is confronting depth with width as two opposing concepts, not me.

There are gray (not white nor black) areas where both could mix.

And a good mixture is the recipe for a good meal.

Kusalananda

I'm sorry, what's the thing that you're talking about here?

Jeff Schaller

maybe the gray hairs that drop onto the white letters atop the black keys on your keyboard?

Isaac

What is it that you don't understand?

Kusalananda

@Isaac What I don't understand is what it is you're reading into that quote from me.

Isaac

3:50 PM

@JeffSchaller I do have gray hair (some at least) and yes my keyboard is black: How did you know? :-)

Kusalananda

@Isaac I think he's referring to me there.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac lucky guess; I think that's three of us that fit that bill :)

Isaac

@Kusalananda I read "depth is contrary to width", I don't fully agree to that black and white view.

Kusalananda

@Isaac Ah, and you ignored my explanation about context just now then?

Isaac

Are you in a mood to confront today? I am not.

Kusalananda

3:54 PM

Well, you're in a public forum on the internet, writing stuff...

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac you’re the one who brought this whole thing up!

Isaac

@StephenKitt And where did I went wrong and ruffled some feathers?

Stephen Kitt

14 mins ago, by Isaac

Just that that quote was marked as favorite (on the right side of the chat page) and I wanted to add some additional data points.

that’s just not how the starred stuff works

it’s rarely useful to re-start a chat conversation IME

it often ends up coming across in a manner reminiscent of another starred comment,

Mar 18 at 19:45, by Andras Deak

@Isaac I'm rarely here but I remember you from getting into a pointless argument the other day...so I think I should tell you that the way you're asking these questions comes across as weird. It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm only telling you this so that we can figure out what you really mean in case this is the wrong impression you're giving off.

Isaac

@StephenKitt I fail to understand you. Is there a rule to not comment on others comments?

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac see, there you go again; I didn’t say there’s a rule not to, I said IME it’s rarely useful

Isaac

4:01 PM

@StephenKitt Do you want to go into that subject? Very very very fine with me .....

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac no, I’m not trying to get into an argument

Isaac

@StephenKitt Are you trying to be vindicative of something you don't like?

Kusalananda

@Isaac Please.

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac stop putting words into my mouth. I only said I rarely find it useful, end of story.

Isaac

@StephenKitt Thanks, for your confrontational ideas, bye.

@Kusalananda Please? What is it that you are asking of me?

Jeff Schaller

4:05 PM

@Isaac he's trying to help you understand the confusion around your comments. It's starting to sound like you want an argument when you say "Are you trying to be vindicative" in response to "I'm not trying to get into an argument". If you're here to share ideas, then simply bring them up and listen. Perhaps we misunderstood the reason you were saying all these things?

Isaac

Fine @JeffSchaller This exchange got derailed somewhere above (not by me, I believe). Let's just drop it. Fine with you?

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I'm just concerned about keeping it civil here. I don't mind a debate of ideas, but we just need to keep it civil. I believe that you & Kusalananda had different things in mind and were talking past each other a bit. If both of you are interested in pursuing it, please pursue it politely and with open minds. If you're not both interested, then it seems smart to drop it.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller I am civil, where were I not?

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac (1) when you claimed Stephen was being vindictive with their opinions, (2) when you wanted to end the conversation with a claim of "confrontational ideas", and (3) (in my opinion) the wording of "Very very very fine with me ....."

Isaac

@JeffSchaller And how do we get to the point where he is entitled and got the right to post a comment which is clearly insulting to me? Should I not tell him to stop doing that?.

@JeffSchaller I answered what I still believe is the correct answer to an confrontational post.

@JeffSchaller I still believe that I am not being un-civil (as you asked) but I also believe that the discussion got derailed from a nice exchange up there somewhere, and someone wanted to flame it.

Jeff Schaller

4:19 PM

@Isaac the only point we're at is a group of people in a chat room saying things. The starred post also says "I'm only telling you this so that we can figure out what you really mean in case this is the wrong impression you're giving off." which is what I was suggesting above when I saw you & Kusalananda going back & forth. It's a "pointless argument" if the people involved aren't talking about the same thing.

You might start with the assumption that everyone here wants things to be better, not worse. If you see an insult, say so, but saying "are you being vindictive?" immediately raises the temperature, not lowers. I do agree that the conversation has been sufficiently derailed, and leave it up to the two of you to continue, or not.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller I agree that Kusalananda and me were not exactly on the same page. I tried to explain what the issue was. He didn't like it and said: Ah, and you ignored my explanation about context just now then?

I don't believe I ignored anything he said today, I have to admit now (thinking about it) that he might be thinking of something else which I am failing to get, But there are many way to say so, being civil.

Isaac

4:41 PM

@JeffSchaller It is a very hard and steep road upwards when there is a bad pre-judgement, I have not been the one being confrontational here. There is a point where @StephenKitt derailed the discussion, seemingly to flame it. Talk to him. Correct the pre-judgements and perhaps you should give me the benefit of the doubt.

I surely doubt that the initial discussion will continue. That much was accomplished.

@JeffSchaller I strongly fail to understand why I can not comment on other users Ideas. Is there some "etiquette guide" that I have failed to read before or is it that some (not you here) are being just too harsh ?

@JeffSchaller I have nothing else to add. Bye for today (most probably).

ilkkachu

To me, it looks like this was the point where it derailed (Stephen just mentioned the fact out loud):
Kusalananda: @Isaac Ah, and you ignored my explanation about context just now then? Isaac: Are you in a mood to confront today? I am not.

Actually I did wonder about that "depth over breadth" comment, in the context it was given. The way I figure it, knowing about different technologies and tools (be it SQL vs non-SQL databases, different programming languages, clouds vs non-cloud) and knowing when to use what is useful breadth of knowledge. Having too sharp and deep a focus on one thing, one specific toolkit, one specific area of science just brings the word Fachidiot to mind.

Isaac

@ilkkachu sigh : What I said meant: you are being somewhat confrontational, could you please fold back....
What @StephenKitt immediately did was add more flames to it. To which I **asked** do you want to discuss that issue? It is fine with me.
He just went out, but leaving the insulting comment there. And coming to think about it: Why don't you erase it?

@ilkkachu The second part of your comment is nice, civil and on topic, I like it. Any one could disagree with me, no problem, in a civil way, please!

ilkkachu

@Isaac me? erase what? I can't erase your, Stephen's, or anyone else's comments. (I'm also not very interested in doing that, either.)

Isaac

4:56 PM

@ilkkachu You as in the third person of "you", all "you people" that could have done that.
You are not interested, fine, you are entitled to your personal opinion, no problem.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac It is, indeed, hard to have good conversation, particularly over text. If you're free to comment, so is Stephen. He remembered a conversation in this same room where you and I had a very confusing time about identity and caring about opinions and then said "it doesn't seem useful to start a conversation the way you did". (cont'd)

You could ignore that, and continue your conversation, since you seemed interested in Kusalananda's opinions. Or you could see insult and accuse him of bad intentions. Or you could explain why you're restarting the conversation in some different context.

I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to forget history (to "correct the pre-judgements") but I agree that we should all be given the benefit of the doubt, until that doubt is cleared up.

@Isaac why do you continue to ignore this part of Andreas' comment: " I'm only telling you this so that we can figure out what you really mean in case this is the wrong impression you're giving off."? If you're being misunderstood, I think the best thing to do -- like I think you were doing -- is to stop and find out why there's a disagreement.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller Do you want to discuss those two issues?

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I'm interested in helping you to have fruitful discussions here in /dev/chat; I'm not sure what you see as the issues. If you think the conversation would be useful to everyone else, we can continue here; otherwise, a separate room might make sense.

Isaac

As you wish or like better, I have no problem either way .... @JeffSchaller

Jeff Schaller

well, let's try to get started on the right foot. What are we discussing, exactly?

Isaac

5:12 PM

@JeffSchaller The two issues that I see on your last post (lets clear those first, later we can add more if desired, or not) are: (1) The right of @StephenKitt to comment (2) The part that I am ignoring from Andrea's comment.
Do you agree?, do you want to add/remove/edit anything?

Jeff Schaller

I think (1) makes more sense to discuss here, since I see you or Stephen or anyone else "in" the room as having "rights to comment". I wonder if (2) would be more appropriate to discuss separately, since it seems (to me) to be specific to you. If you'd rather talk it out here, I think that's OK, too.

Isaac

5:29 PM

As I said, either way is fine with me. I believe that I have come to terms with that Andrea's comment. If you want private, open a chat, invite me, no problem either. @JeffSchaller

As for (1), yes, StephenKitt has every right to comment anything with anyone at anytime within some limits. His comment was (mainly) : it’s rarely useful to re-start a chat conversation IME and his next action is to re-post a chat conversation. His actions doesn't fit his words. Or else he doesn't want to comment in a civil way, he wants to confront others: I asked: Do you want a discussion about that ? He refused to keep talking. @JeffSchaller

Is that a fair description of the sequence? @JeffSchaller

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I'm not sure if I'd say it's a fair description -- I mean, we can all see the chat transcript history. I think what you're saying is that it's hypocritical to say (1) "I don't think it's useful to restart a chat conversation" and then (2) (here's an old chat conversation).

is that fair to say of your position?

Isaac

@JeffSchaller I am saying: words don't match actions. The hypocritical adjective is something you added. Having words that doesn't match actions, makes one wonder: What is it that is wanted? One possible conclusion is that all that was wanted was to post a previous comment because he wanted to discuss that comment, but then he refuse to discuss it, raising even more misunderstandings.

Am I making myself clear ?

Jeff Schaller

5:48 PM

@Isaac sorry for adding a word that I thought fit the circumstances. I understand you a bit better, now. I would say that if you are truly interested in their motives, you'd ask it in a different way than "Are you trying to be vindicative of something you don't like?". Perhaps take him at face value when he says (paraphrasing) "starred comments aren't meant as conversational starting points" -- as part of the confusion in the existing conversation.

Faheem Mitha

Hmm. Some talking here. I wonder how long it will last.

Hello, everyone.

Jeff Schaller

@FaheemMitha Hi Faheem! Yes, conversation in this room tends to come & go.

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller Yes, I've noticed.

I hope everyone is doing ok.

Isaac

If tey are "starting points", why refuse to continue a conversation: *no, I’m not trying to get into an argument*

So, having exhausted all reasonable "good" intentions at that point, I am forced to ask: "do you have a bad intention?". Point at which he could have calm things down by just saying: No, I don't, what I meant was ......., or, better: sorry: I didn't mean to disturb you, or even: No, pal I don't. He didn't either.

Jeff Schaller

I keep thinking back to duhaime's (starred) comment " I think I'm just going to take up farming and leave all this behind " :)

Faheem Mitha

5:55 PM

Actually, the breath vs depth issue is an interesting topic.

And potentially quite a deep one.

Isaac

Hi @FaheemMitha I guess that it will last till it ends, just my fair guess ..... :-)

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac What will?

Both breadth and depth has pros and cons. But of course it's context dependent too.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha Didn't you ask: I wonder how long it will last. ..... ?

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac Oh, the talking. Yes.

Things do usually last till they end. That's true.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I'm not going to speak for Stephen; of course he's free to comment in here or not. I think that your conversation with Stephen went downhill quickly and I was happy to see that it ended quickly. It's OK to walk away from a misunderstanding, too (either person).

@Isaac I'm not convinced that you exhausted "all reasonable good intentions at that point", though, by your 3rd comment "are you being vindictive?"

Isaac

5:58 PM

Finally, I figured it out:

6 mins ago, by Faheem Mitha

Hmm. Some talking here. I wonder how long it will last.

Jeff Schaller

(FYI - I will be a little more delayed in responding for a few minutes; have some other things to attend to)

Faheem Mitha

In the modern world, but depth and breath is required in different situations.

Increasingly so. Which means it takes longer and longer for people to get to the point where they can do useful things, at least in technical fields.

And the world is becoming an increasingly technical one.

I myself seem to spend more and more time researching things, and reading stuff. And am constantly reminded how little I know.

On a variety of topics. Recently I've been reading about insurance.

Because I was trying to buy health insurance. Which in India is anything but a simple matter. I wish I was living in a country with a universal health care system.

Now, it would be nice to be an expert on insurance at this juncture.

But I'm just trying to understand what I'm reading, right now.

terdon

@JeffSchaller And in the room, the geeks do come and go, talking of make, and AND, and Go.

Faheem Mitha

@terdon if you just came up with that yourself, it's quite good.

Though I've never liked the word geeks.

I like the way Eliot's poetry sounds, but it's never made much sense to me.

I think maybe he just made up some nice-sounding words, and joined them together.

And then left it to the critics to assign meaning to the result.

terdon

@FaheemMitha I did, yes. I love that particular poem, although I'm no great reader of poetry.

Faheem Mitha

6:11 PM

Though I would left out "do".

Jeff Schaller

I have emerged from my distraction.

terdon

@FaheemMitha You need it for the rhythm since women has two syllables while geeks has one.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller Excellent, So, you are back!!!
In any case, by anyone opinion, I could not have exhausted all possible "good" intentions, yes, I could kind of agree (but at some point it has to reach some end, it can not continue for ever, and others would insert themselves into the conversation making it even more difficult to get the idea across. But being called **pointless** and **weird** and **you have a chip on your shoulder** and finally: **the wrong impression** is not a nice and civil description by any measure (and that's not counting that Andrea didn't know what was being discussed…

Faheem Mitha

I was just idly musing about how value and price seem to disconnected in the modern world. This was partly prompted by time spent looking at stock prices. Not a practice I would recommend, unless you have a good reason for doing so.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller And, don't worry, the underlying issue will stay here for quite some time, so: Don't be in a rush. We can drop out of it and get it back at any time, it wont go away :-)

Faheem Mitha

6:15 PM

For, here is Coca-Cola's market capitalisation - 196.49 billion.
.

Let's compare it to the market value of the Debian project - $0.

It's also 0 in any other currency.

Coca-cola is (correct me if I'm wrong), sugared carbonated colored water.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha And which of both is a fair market valuation? Both?

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac It's the current market value, that's my point.

So the question is, what's more important to society, free software or sugared carbonated colored water? The market's answer is clear.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha I asked fair market valuation, not current (maybe unfair) market value.

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac I don't know fair market valuation would be. That's not clearly defined, anyway.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac since we agree that you gave up on good intentions, it's best that the conversation ended quickly. I would caution you to read the quote a little bit more carefully.

Faheem Mitha

6:18 PM

And it wasn't really relevant to my point.

Jeff Schaller

You are not being called pointless and weird. One of your conversations was called pointless, and "the way you're asking ... comes across as weird", and "It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder", followed immediately by "so that we can figure out what you really mean in case this is the wrong impression you're giving off"

Isaac

@FaheemMitha Fair as in reasonable, correct, usable, expected to sustain the test of time.

Jeff Schaller

In that previous conversation, you seemed to ignore that comment -- or missed it -- but regardless, persisted in asking me why I cared about your opinion when -- at that point -- you appeared as a new/separate user to me.

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac Again, no idea. And again, it's not relevant to what I was trying to say.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha How much would you invest on a project that would give you 0 U$ back?
Debian has (sadly) 0 income.

Jeff Schaller

6:21 PM

it appears I was mistyping Andras' name all this time! Woops :(

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac Wow. You're really missing the point. Which I thought was clear.

Granted, it's not much of a point. But reading a lot of stock prices does bring it home to one in a rather concrete way.

And also reading people like Warren Buffet also has that effect.

He really is a cheerleader for American capitalism. Nauseating.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller You are going into two **other** issues: (3) What do I think of the Andrea's comment and (4) That you feel I ignored you in some other unconnected discussion.
Do you want to add those issues as well to the discussion?
Fine,
But first: Have I made myself clear about (1) ? Do you want to talk about (2)?

@FaheemMitha And, then. what was your point? Sorry if I missed it.

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac No need to apologise. My point is so obvious that's it's hardly worth mentioning. But in any case, the crux is this sentence, I suppose.

9 mins ago, by Faheem Mitha

So the question is, what's more important to society, free software or sugared carbonated colored water? The market's answer is clear.

The point is that modern capitalist societies, how do we measure what we value? Money.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I wasn't clear, sorry. I'm trying to tell you that I think that you misunderstood Andras' comment altogether, which set that conversation downhill. I mention it because Stephen reposted it, which seemed to precipitate your response. I want you to see that (I think) both of those people meant it helpfully and not hurtfully. You see it differently, and I wanted to point out the other interpretations.

Faheem Mitha

How is this working out for us?

Isaac

6:29 PM

@FaheemMitha What is important to the market is (usually) not equal to what should be important to the society. That is a fact, not an opinion. Well, yes, In My Opinion.

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac What's important to society isn't a clearly defined thing.

But one way to measure it is how much society is willing to pay for it.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller I understand you intent but that that post included insulting words is undeniable.

Faheem Mitha

And these aren't theoretical or idle issues. These are very real ones.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller And, bringing it in in a already derailing discussion is reckless at the best, something else at the worst.

Faheem Mitha

I'm not particularly trying to pick on Coca-Cola, but I must admit, that since I was a child, I've found the existence of these "beverages" particularly puzzling.

Isaac

6:32 PM

I have to go out for about 30 minutes, I'll come back .....

Faheem Mitha

I remember wondering about it as a child.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac we're still not on the same page. You see that post as being a direct comment on your person, while I see it as someone trying to give you feedback on the impression you're giving. I can see the progression -- if you find it insulting that it brings up "derailing" and "worse" -- but that's why I felt like it would be helpful to you to clear it up. Of course, I'm not Andras, so this is just my interpretation, too.

Faheem Mitha

The sale of sugared carbonated water is particularly strange in a country where free potable water is not generally available.

Jeff Schaller

I'll close out my thoughts on (1) by saying that three different people have tried to say that your chat conversations have come across badly. Perhaps take a moment to re-read the whole conversations and see how people are reacting to them. If you're confused by any of my reactions, please let me know. I would say the same of anyone else, but for a productive conversation, please frame it as "I'm trying to do better, and would really like to understand why you said (X)"

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller You're putting a lot of effort into this.

Remember, you don't get paid for this.

Jeff Schaller

6:37 PM

@FaheemMitha that phrasing reminds me of ... beer or tea; some sort of non-water beverage that became popular when a water-borne illness was rampant.

Faheem Mitha

Which isn't to say that your contributions aren't valuable, of course. See my solilioquy above.

Jeff Schaller

@FaheemMitha I'm not getting paid?!? Can I collect unemployment for being a moderator? :) I do really want the U&L community to be able to participate -- mainly on the Q&A page, but also here.

we just can't talk about editors :)

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller Yes, in India people actually used to ask for Coke instead of water, because they thought it would be less likely to poison them.

I think I've done that myself. I don't know if that if that happens, though.

@JeffSchaller Editors?

Jeff Schaller

@FaheemMitha a reference to the "classic" vi vs emacs "discussions"

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller Sounds like a reasonable campfire discussion.

Jeff Schaller

6:40 PM

well how about that. I search history.SE for supporting evidence and I find:

29

Q: Why don't people without access to clean water drink beer anymore?

In the medieval ages, peasants used to drink beer instead of water because the plain water wasn't safe to drink. Why do people in countries where the water sources are polluted not do this today? Why did this practice emerge in some countries but not others?

middle-ages social-history

Faheem Mitha

I wonder if the added alcohol is at all effective in killing germs.

@JeffSchaller The U&L community (what there is of it), doesn't seem to be a chatty bunch.

Jeff Schaller

@FaheemMitha well, /dev/chat is the "third place", and tends to open up different kinds of misunderstandings, so I wouldn't honestly miss it if it disappeared. But since it's here, I'd like to to be useful and friendly.

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller You wouldn't miss it if it disappeared? That's harsh.

Jeff Schaller

@FaheemMitha maybe I'm being too quick or harsh. Change my mind :)

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller Well, you're here. And more than most.

Even though you don't talk a lot.

Jeff Schaller

6:53 PM

@FaheemMitha if chat didn't exist, I wouldn't be here. case closed :)

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller Well, you could choose not to be here. Lots of people do.

Jeff Schaller

I don't say much because my oddball interests only overlap a bit with people's interests here. ed and chainsaws covers most of it :)

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller One can talk about all sorts of things.

Jeff Schaller

@FaheemMitha we can, and we do :)

Faheem Mitha

Though people seem to find my topics of conversations alarmingly varied. I used to frequently get bemused comments about it.

Jeff Schaller

7:05 PM

@FaheemMitha but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?!?

Isaac

@JeffSchaller I have learnt a long time ago that ends doesn't justify means, never, that is the core of the issue at this community. Shielding behind the "good intent" idea, some disgraceful words are used, and some go as far as defending them because they were emitted "with good intention".

@JeffSchaller Yes, that is a good recommendation, it is softer: "I'm trying to do better, and would really like to understand why you said (X)" . What should I say if the answer is also negative?

Sorry @JeffSchaller you are deeply wrong on believing that words like pointless and weird and you have a chip on your shoulder and finally: the wrong impression would finally lead to good results, they wont, they didn't and they could not possible will.

@JeffSchaller That covers (1) and probably (3) Do you want to go to (4)?

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac You're also expending a lot of energy and time on this.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha Is that something I should not do?

@FaheemMitha From a previous discussion:
We vote with our wallets !!
That Coca-Cola has such valuation is a result of two things, and two things only: The income that the sale of each bottle (well, bottles, cans, etc) generates and the earnings that such income will generate when used to produce the product being sold.

Faheem Mitha

7:22 PM

@Isaac Probably. It doesn't seem like a good use of your time. You only have so much time on this planet.

@Isaac Yes, I'm aware of how capitalism works.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha (Sadly) Debian has 0 income, the market values it at 0.
If we find a way to make Debian earn income, then it may have some other valuation.

Faheem Mitha

Personally, I have never purchased these products, and never will.

Well, except under very special circumstances.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha We fight the battles that need fighting!!

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac Yes, I know. My point is that this pricing system is pretty screwy.

@Isaac Which battle was that? And are you sure it is worth fighting (whatever that is)?

Isaac

@FaheemMitha I believe that there is something that needs changing here.
And I not talking about the market on this comment.

Faheem Mitha

7:26 PM

@Isaac Needs changing where? Linking to comments is helpful for context.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha And I will devote as much time as I like to the thing that interest me, thanks for your point of view anyway.

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac Again, not sure what you are referring to.

And of course, what you choose to do with your time is your business.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha I'll fight the fights that need fighting.

Jeff Schaller

7:38 PM

@Isaac I'm just trying to keep the door open as long as possible for constructive feedback. If the other person is not interested in helping you, there's not much you can do. If it's gone further into abusive ("not nice") behavior, of course flag the comment(s). I would only add that I think Andras phrased it very well; it could have been much blunter & less nice.

Andras said how they perceived your behavior and (IMHO) kept the door open "so that we can figure out what you really mean".

I've honestly lost track of the numbering, and we seemed to have skipped (2)? (scrolling back to see)

Isaac

@JeffSchaller Are you saying that: He had the right to be harsh, much worse, and he should be praised for being less so? Are you sure that that is "good" and civil behavior ? Hmmm, I would repeat: I kind of think that you are deeply wrong here.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I would claim that if it was said differently. You & I disagree on the facts here.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller Yes, it seems to me that you don't want to discuss (2) here. And (4) is still open.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac well, I just found (2) -- The part that I am ignoring from Andrea's comment. , which is "I'm only telling you this so that we can figure out what you really mean in case this is the wrong impression you're giving off."

Isaac

@JeffSchaller The facts are that insulting words are not a good path to a correct resolution of anything. Good intent or not. That should end (3).

@JeffSchaller Perfect, what is it that you want to discuss of (2)?

Jeff Schaller

7:47 PM

@Isaac Well, it's closely related, right? It's all part of the same comment from them, and it tells me that they're trying to help you by correcting the impression that you're giving off.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller You are reading that intent, but intent is a very slippery road.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I don't know if this would be helpful, but consider a less-useful reply from someone that went like "You're being an idiot. You should stop talking because no one likes you". That's someone that's giving feedback who's not expressing an interest in helping you; they're not giving any constructive feedback.

A reply like that should be flagged as unkind. But does it help distinguish the degrees I'm trying to get across to you?

Isaac

@JeffSchaller And how am I scoring on that aspect today? Any better? It strucks me as odd that you fail to acknowledge anything on that front today. And only bring back what you want me to accept. Forced to accept ....

@JeffSchaller The Andras comment contains hateful words, there is nothing you can do about that. Was his intent to help, maybe, He is not here to ask him. I am aware that several people here up voted it. but still that doesn't change the fact that some other words could have been more productive instead of insulting me.

@JeffSchaller If, and only if i put aside those words, I could see some good intent. The question then is should I ignore words that qualify me as "idiot" (your words now). Do you want a direct answer to that comment ? Are we going to get into that path ?

@JeffSchaller No, Jeff, the evaluation of that comment by this community is incorrect. If the intent is to help, then help, not insult, or insult (what you just did) to make your point stronger. Please stop the insults right here.

Jeff Schaller

8:04 PM

@Isaac, please understand that my example above was just an example and not directed at you at all. They're completely different words that I made up to show you a range of possible reactions in chat messages.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller So, I didn't ignore anything of the Andras comment. I just choose to not answer at that time, too many problems at once. Now, I have come to terms with it and found it failing in several ways, But I could understand how some others (incorrectly) might cheer and applaud. Human nature in its raw form, nothing less, nothing more.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I do think that I have a better understanding of your reaction to that comment, when quoted by Stephen. I don't have to agree with it, and I'm hoping to help you see why. You're also not obligated to engage with it. I'm happy to hear you say that if you put those words aside, you see some good intent. If you take that good intent and ask for clarification, they might engage with you.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller You are talking about me, don't squirrel away.

@JeffSchaller I am not an "idiot" by any reasonable understanding of that word.

@JeffSchaller What are you asking of me? To call @StephenKitt and ask that he discuss what he did? Or That I ask Andras to clarify his insults?

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac wait, what? What am I "squirreling away from"? Your reply to the message above doesn't make sense. I'll say again that I do not consider you an idiot. That phrasing was to contrast possible reactions in chat -- not an actual one.

@Isaac see, you're off on the wrong foot again. Step 1: put aside words that you think are insults. Step 2: See that the person wants to help. Step 3: reach out to that person to see why they said those words.

Isaac

20 mins ago, by Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I don't know if this would be helpful, but consider a less-useful reply from someone that went like "You're being an idiot. You should stop talking because no one likes you". That's someone that's giving feedback who's not expressing an interest in helping you; they're not giving any constructive feedback.

Jeff Schaller

8:12 PM

8 mins ago, by Jeff Schaller

@Isaac, please understand that my example above was just an example and not directed at you at all. They're completely different words that I made up to show you a range of possible reactions in chat messages.

Isaac

You said: anyone acting like you could be called an "idiot" didn't you?

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I did not.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller Ok, lets leave that at that,.... Moving on.

@JeffSchaller But the fact remains that bad words generate bad reactions, don't they?

@JeffSchaller And that ends doesn't justify means.

@JeffSchaller Agree?

@JeffSchaller And I didn't ignore anything on the Andras comment.

@JeffSchaller Enough for (2) ?

Jeff Schaller

I'm not up for a philosophical discussion of ends & means right now, but if you see something that's against the Code of Conduct, say something and/or flag it.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller I did.

Jeff Schaller

8:20 PM

Certainly every action has a reaction, so it's more useful to consider the context of those actions & reactions. If someone is reacting to you, and you want to have a productive conversation, it helps if you can see the positive parts. If you can't continue to participate, there's no obligation for you to.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller But I am talking to you (not the code of conduct) and we should reach an agreement or this discussion was pointless. Do we agree on anything?

@JeffSchaller Again, have we finished (2)? Or not? What do we agree on (1) and (3) ?

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I think we had a good bit of conversation around this, sure! (1) was about people making comments in here, and replying to those comments constructively. (2) we made good progress on, I think. (3) I can't remember what 3 was! :)

ah, your reaction to Andras' comment, that you found their words insulting. I think there's no way for us to come to an agreement there, since I can't change what you think is insulting. So I think we differ there.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller Yes, the discussion has been long, (3) was about (3) What do I think of the Andrea's comment

@JeffSchaller Do you claim that starting with "pointless argument" is a good start? Do you find that being called "weird" is a nice thing to say?

Faheem Mitha

Oh dear, I see this is still going.

I think someone should be charging for therapy sessions.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha I never would charge @JeffSchaller, that is not a good idea.

Jeff Schaller

8:29 PM

@Isaac No, I don't think it's a good start. It's history that I think they mention to explain why they're now making a comment -- that they see it as a trend of behavior. And, while "weird" might not be positive, it's certainly not very negative and I've been called weird and call myself weird, for some of my interests in various contexts.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller So we "kind of agree" then, half of that and half of the other .... Well, that looks to me as progress ....

Jeff Schaller

Excellent! Thank you, @Isaac, for sticking around and trying to gain some understanding/agreement. That's all I was really hoping for, from my perspective.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller Do you want to start with (4) ? Or should we call the day?

Jeff Schaller

we're into bonus territory, as far as I remember! I thought we had two points to tackle :) let me look back to what (4) was

was it "That you feel I ignored you in some other unconnected discussion." ?

Isaac

Yes, that was it.

Jeff Schaller

8:35 PM

I have a very hazy memory of that other discussion, so it might be tiring to bring it all back up. I don't have any particular need to go through it, so if you don't, I'm OK with calling that "done"

Isaac

@JeffSchaller That is easy to clear: Yes, I ignored your repeated calls to identify myself while using a different Account than the one you blocked. The reasons should be obvious, aren't they?

@JeffSchaller Maybe that comment should be erased. I am not sure.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac well, apart from evading a suspension by using a second account (!!), can you see that attempting to remain anonymous while also expecting a personal touch is disingenious and doesn't move the conversation forward?

Isaac

Yes, I can see that, can you see that I was risking a more rigorous block? @JeffSchaller

But I didn't expect nor asked for a "personal touch" @JeffSchaller

I expected to be treated fairly as any other user would. And you keep (as now) to see it in terms of "who I think this individual is" instead of "what is this user saying"?

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac Listen; those are the rules of the site. I'm a moderator of the site. What do you want me to say to that? Serve the suspension then come back and have a discussion. Working around the rules of the site leads to further punishment, yes.

@Isaac I can't connect your "didn't ask for a personal touch" with your repeated queries of "do you care what I think?" and "you need history to care about someone opinions"

Isaac

It is valid to have several accounts, and yes, I probably was borderline when used my other account.

Jeff Schaller

8:48 PM

@Isaac s/borderline/over the line/

Isaac

@JeffSchaller What do you want to clarify?

@JeffSchaller That I was "over the line", is that what you need me to say?

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I don't need anything from that conversation at this point:

13 mins ago, by Jeff Schaller

I have a very hazy memory of that other discussion, so it might be tiring to bring it all back up. I don't have any particular need to go through it, so if you don't, I'm OK with calling that "done"

Isaac

@JeffSchaller But you are leaving other interesting issues out !!

@JeffSchaller But I could as well see what the future brings in and leave that as it was.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I want you to see meta.stackexchange.com/questions/125268/… (Meta.SE FAQ page on suspensions) where it says "If the account holder creates a new account to bypass the suspension, that account will also be automatically suspended for the same reason until the end time of the original suspension, even if the old account was deleted."

Isaac

So, you are going to suspend me Again, nice!

But I did not create a new account, that account had several years of use.

@JeffSchaller Are you going to repeat the "as you wish"?

Jeff Schaller

8:53 PM

@Isaac please do not split hairs on the letter of the law there. I have not decided to suspend you again. I'm saying that you did the wrong thing there.

The point of this (4) conversation was where you ignored my requests to identify yourself, and what that meant for the conversation.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller And I am aware that I did, and shouldn't have. But you did push the issue quite deep.

@JeffSchaller And history repeats ....

Jeff Schaller

Oh? Do you have another account that we need to go looking for?

Isaac

@JeffSchaller (1) Is there a requirement that I am not aware of to reveal all my accounts?
(2) That is not what I meant. (3) History repeats in that you are hinting (the softer word I could find) me with suspension, Again.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I wasn't sure what the "repeats" referred to. Just follow the site's rules and you'll be all set! :)

Have we covered (4), then? I've said why I thought it was confusing to expect personal opinions from someone that I didn't know

Isaac

@JeffSchaller the only requirement is that I should not use accounts to vote for other of my accounts and that I should not use one account to bypass other site rules.

@JeffSchaller I did not ask for "personal" opinions, you did fall into "personal" opinions quite quickly !

Jeff Schaller

9:07 PM

@Isaac we've misunderstood each other. I didn't mean "personal" like "private" but asking whether I care about your opinions is a "personal" question. It's not a factual question like "what is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?" but one that requires some knowledge of the person.

When you know that you're evading identification, and I suspect that you're evading identification, it goes nowhere fast.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller It seems that I have to seek the real exchange, I was working from memory alone and there are issues that are not that clear in my memory now. I'll have to find it first. Time out, perhaps we could get back to it later?

Jeff Schaller

That's why I felt like you ignored me -- because you ignored my repeated requests to clarify your situation.

I'm all set with the situation, but if you want to bring it back up later, maybe we can do so in a separate room. I'm not sure it's useful to the /dev/chat audience. But again, I'm all set with it.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller But at the time I could not do that. Is that clear already, I have said three times (I think).

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac right, the (4) point here was to understand why I felt like you ignored me. Do we understand each other on that point now?

Isaac

@JeffSchaller I believe that I have never misunderstood you. You lack some key information at the time and tried to act on it anyway. I didn't provide that information for obvious reasons (as I said from the start). Now, do that improve things?

Jeff Schaller

9:14 PM

@Isaac it doesn't change history, no. But I appreciate that you came clean about the situation.

Isaac

@JeffSchaller No, history never change, but our perception of it sure does change with time, no way to avoid that fact. So, our opinions improve or deteriorate with time. Again anything got better?

Michael Homer

For anyone who's not aware of this fantastic feature in the chat system, it makes some rooms so much nicer to use

Isaac

@MichaelHomer That sure isn't helpful.

Jeff Schaller

It seems we've exhausted Michael's patience, @Isaac. Let's leave history where it is and call it a day.

Today's chat log must look really strange if you only see half of it!

Isaac

Sure, I was ready probably 10 posts above. thanks for your time.

Michael Homer

9:20 PM

It was a long time before I found out about it, and it really helps in some of the more active rooms where some parts just aren't interesting to you. I wish it were available everywhere

Jeff Schaller

Does it filter the transcript, too?

Michael Homer

@JeffSchaller It does not

The "load older messages" scrollback, yes, the click-a-link transcript no

Jeff Schaller

understood; thanks! I haven't used all the features here, myself. Glad you found it useful!

I was bemused that you pulled up my account as the example to block -- does it even work with moderators?

Michael Homer

@JeffSchaller I haven't tried, but I don't see why not

Jeff Schaller

well, I'll send one more message, just in case you're testing it, but I'm going to head offline for a bit. Have a good one!

ilkkachu

9:29 PM

Oh yeah, it works for moderators. (Now, how do I turn it off?)

Michael Homer

@ilkkachu If you go to chat.stackexchange.com/users/155906 there's a button

ilkkachu

@MichaelHomer that's exactly where I went, though it took a while to see it.

I wrote that question in jest at first, but, well...

Michael Homer

Chat UI is not great at all, but the functionality is much better than the sites

ilkkachu

well, in some parts perhaps. It's surprisingly good for a web-based chat, though!

Michael Homer

I would really like to have the "ignore this user" feature on the main sites

ilkkachu

9:36 PM

ah well, I suppose I can understand that. But then, it might get a bit weird, if their answers were totally hidden, you might end up posting an essentially identical one just because you didn't see there already was one, etc.

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