/dev/chat

12:02 PM

@StephenKitt Ah, it is, perfect, January 2021, yes, thats about time. If it doesn't get delayed, as it has in the past (several times). But that is perfectly fine with me. Release when it is ready, not because of some set date.

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac packages don’t flow into stable when the release happens: testing becomes stable (a symlink is changed on the main repository server).

Isaac

@StephenKitt Yes, I know about the symlink. What I have been saying is that at that exact point in time when the symlink is changed, both stable and testing are exactly equal.

Faheem Mitha

@StephenKitt To repeat my earlier question, do you think there is any point suggesting some explanatory or qualifying text on that web page?

I don't really care, but I do think the usage of "release" is that context can be confusing.

Isaac

@StephenKitt At that point in time users (and the apt application) find out about the new set of packages and have to download all of them at once.

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac you’ve been saying that “stable must get exactly equal to testing”, and “all the packages ... flow into stable at once”, which are incorrect

Isaac

12:06 PM

@StephenKitt Fine, how do you want me say it?

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac that testing becomes stable

Isaac

@StephenKitt The symlink points to the same set of packages at one point in time?

@StephenKitt The users need to download the new set of packages ?

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac that’s an implementation detail; the important thing is that testing, once it’s deemed RC-bug-free enough, and once the installer is ready, suddenly becomes stable.

There’s a separate process for packages to “flow into” stable. Mentioning that for the release process only causes confusion (which can be seen in quite a few Qs on the main site).

Isaac

@StephenKitt Now we are talking, yes, that's correct, you are correct. But some implementation details may be interesting to know as well.

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac oh of course, but you don’t start with that ;-).

Isaac

12:11 PM

@StephenKitt Yes, packages enter sid, after (usually a week) the "flow into" testing, after they have been tested for a while (and have zero release bugs) are ready for stable, correct?

That is the view of the developers.

@StephenKitt From wat they move and use.

Stephen Kitt

No, that’s not the view of the developers. Packages flow from unstable into testing; but individual packages don’t become ready for stable. The entire testing distribution becomes ready to be renamed stable.

We develop a distribution, not (only) separate packages.

(In between releases, individual packages can become “ready for stable”, and that’s the start of the stable update process; but that’s something different from the overall stable release process.)

Isaac

@StephenKitt For the point of view of the user of a Debian installation, stable gets downloaded once the release is done (the symlink got changed).

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac again, you’re changing tack.

Faheem Mitha

@StephenKitt Are you talking about point releases?

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha yes.

Isaac

12:15 PM

@StephenKitt Sorry, what is it that botters you?

Faheem Mitha

@StephenKitt Ok.

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac you brought up the developers’ perspective, and suddenly you drop that and start talking about the users’ perspective

Isaac

@StephenKitt I am sure there are (a huge lot) of details I am not aware of , and that make the whole process very much more complex that my layman words make it. But I am summarizing (a loooot) the concept. Well, well, trying to .... at least :-)

@StephenKitt How would you describe it, If possible, in one (or a few) sentences?

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac from what perspective?

Isaac

@StephenKitt What I was trying to make a difference of is the Debian repository process to the users experience. The Debian repository gets updated everyday. At one point in time a symlink gets changed, At that point in time, everyone that downloads from the repository gets to know what needs to be changed. And they download.

@StephenKitt Which sentence is incorrect?

@StephenKitt Just trying to agree.

Stephen Kitt

12:26 PM

@Isaac none ;-).

Isaac

@StephenKitt So, we (kind of) agree?

Stephen Kitt

I tend to think of the repos more as a set of pipelines. Packages are uploaded, and made available in various repositories, depending on the nature of the upload. Users see package updates on whatever pipelines they consume.

@Isaac it looks like it.

Isaac

@StephenKitt Yep, that is good way to put it, I agree.

@StephenKitt :-)

Isaac

12:46 PM

@StephenKitt I had the impression that you worked at RH, don't you?

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac I do!

Isaac

@StephenKitt And yet, you work with Debian as well, do you?

@StephenKitt Are you a Debian developer?

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac I do indeed. There are a dozen or so Debian developers working at Red Hat (not paid to work on Debian, obviously).

@Isaac yup, since 2013 IIRC. I’m also a Fedora packager.

Isaac

@StephenKitt Ah, ok, But do you develop for Fedora as well?

Jeff Schaller

He's also an international man of mystery.

Stephen Kitt

12:50 PM

@Isaac yes, but also not as part of my paid work.

Isaac

@StephenKitt Ah, already answered. thanks.

Stephen Kitt

@JeffSchaller shhh!

Isaac

Is it mistery or misery ? :-P (j/k)

Jeff Schaller

Sorry, typo. I meant: Stephen Kitt is internationally known as a fan of MST3K.

Stephen Kitt

@JeffSchaller amazingly I’ve only ever seen one episode of MST3K. It isn’t really a thing outside the US, unfortunately

Jeff Schaller

12:53 PM

Stephen Kitt is a perfectly ordinary human. The most interesting thing about him is his keyboard full of fancy quotes.

Isaac

I never heard of that before, Is it any good (MST3K. I mean).

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac I saw it many years ago and found it funny. Mystery Science Theater 3000

Stephen Kitt

Isaac

If his keyboard full of fancy quotes he has no space for anything else: Someone once said: It is dificult to fill a cup already full, or words to that effect. :-)

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac it’s a TV show where you see a few people (as shadows) watching a film and making funny comments about it

Jeff Schaller

12:55 PM

it appears you can watch some on Youtube now

well thank goodness you have four ways to input F12!

Isaac

I have seen some of those along the years, yes, Reasonably good as I recall.

The shadows, I mean.

Stephen Kitt

@JeffSchaller I suspect that part is wrong ;-)

Jeff Schaller

@StephenKitt then I'm very misled by the infographic!

Stephen Kitt

ah actually not, the state changes but the keysym is always F12

Isaac

@StephenKitt Having to type Alt-gr-shift-6 to get a | doesn't seem easy :-).

Stephen Kitt

12:58 PM

@Isaac it’s just AltGr-6 ;-)

on French keyboards the numbers are all shifted

the basic symbol on the 6 key is the hyphen

Jeff Schaller

it seems to me that the keymap map needs a legend for which keys shift up-left, up-right, left, or right

Isaac

@StephenKitt Where is the ^ ??? Can't find it.

Stephen Kitt

@JeffSchaller the feature I’d like is for the keysyms to be highlighted when you press the corresponding modifier

@Isaac the non-dead caret is AltGr-9, the dead caret has its own key next to P

Jeff Schaller

I'm really impressed

Isaac

@StephenKitt Ah, got it. But you rarely use the ç that is for Portuguese.

Stephen Kitt

1:03 PM

@Isaac ç is quite frequent in French

Isaac

@StephenKitt Is there any keyboard that has tiny screens on each key and change when pressing any modifier key? I have never seen one of those.

Stephen Kitt

@Isaac yes, IIRC DasKeyboard has an OLED screen on each key

Isaac

@StephenKitt Ok, didn't know.

Jeff Schaller

Sally sells ç-shells by the ç-shore; it's Nice (©)

Isaac

Th euse of ç I mean.

Hmm Daskeyboard, searching right now.

Faheem Mitha

1:06 PM

@StephenKitt Never did get a comment from you about that Debian web page.

Jeff Schaller

@Isaac daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate

Isaac

@StephenKitt A bit pricey it seems: tomsguide.com/us/…

@JeffSchaller Thanks, going there

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha sorry, I thought I’d answered; there’s an ongoing terminology discussion in the project

Jeff Schaller

Nov 5 '19 at 16:16, by Jeff Schaller

The other-other thing I don't like about the DASKeyboard is convincing my wife that I should spend $170 on a keyboard

@Isaac $1000 seems cheap versus having to remember the locations of 5,000 symbols

jesse_b

You all should see what bloomberg charges for keyboards

Stephen Kitt

1:10 PM

sorry, it’s the Optimus keyboard

Optimus Maximus keyboard

The Optimus Maximus keyboard, previously just "Optimus keyboard", is a keyboard developed by the Art. Lebedev Studio, a Russian design studio headed by Artemy Lebedev. Each of its keys is a display which can dynamically change to adapt to the keyboard layout in use or to show the function of the key. It was launched initially in 2008 and is no longer available to new orders. == Overview == The design featured on the studio's website received attention on the web when it was featured on Slashdot on July 14, 2005, and afterwards for a few weeks on other technology websites. The original release...

Jeff Schaller

Does Gartner have a magic quadrant for keyboards?

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha but yes, it’s always worth mentioning that you find the terminology unclear

deostroll

1:55 PM

can we source a script that accepts arguments via getopts and export variables inside it...so that they get added globally onto the shell's (i.e tty) environment?

For e.g. source mongo/set_env -h 192.133.0.3 -p 27017 -d mydb

Stephen Kitt

@deostroll set -h 192.133.0.3 -p 27017 -d mydb; source mongo/set_env

ilkkachu

2:17 PM

Bash, zsh and ksh pass arguments given in ., too.

Faheem Mitha

2:53 PM

@StephenKitt What sort of terminology?

Isaac

3:10 PM

@FaheemMitha I believe he meant "the use of the word release".

Faheem Mitha

@Isaac He didn't specify what terminology was being discussed.

Isaac

@FaheemMitha Well, wait till he comes back.

Tim

3:53 PM

💔

😢

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha membership nomenclature mostly, following debian.org/vote/2020/platforms/jcc, but I’ve seen discussion of the whole suite/release/distribution stuff (I can’t remember where)

Faheem Mitha

@StephenKitt Ok. So should I write a bug report against some pseudo-package, or just email debian-www@lists.debian.org?

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha follow the instructions at the bottom of the page

Faheem Mitha

4:09 PM

@StephenKitt I'm not sure what instructions you mean.

> To report a problem with the web site, please e-mail our publicly archived mailing list debian-www@lists.debian.org in English.

But this probably isn't a problem with the web site.

Jeff Schaller

perhaps debian.org/contact and "Questions regarding the Debian Project in general can be sent to the debian-project mailing list, at debian-project@lists.debian.org." ?

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha that’s what I was referring to; IMO that’s the most appropriate venue to get the ball rolling

Faheem Mitha

Per debian.org/Bugs/pseudo-packages, perhaps a bug report against the www.debian.org pseudo-package, though again, that says: "Problems with the WWW site".

@StephenKitt So not a bug report using reportbug, against the pseudo-package www.debian.org?

Hmm, I could go for some Swiss chocolate right now. Too bad I'm not in Switzerland.

@JeffSchaller It's not really a question about the project.

Stephen Kitt

@FaheemMitha bug reports against www.debian.org go to debian-www@lists.debian.org

so it’s pretty similar

but looking at the debian-www archives shows quite a lot of direct email requests, as instructed at the bottom of each page

Faheem Mitha

@StephenKitt Oh. Right.

Faheem Mitha

4:45 PM

@StephenKitt But they also get tracked in bugs.debian.org, right?

Michael Homer

9:00 PM

jfc

Jeff Schaller

10:56 PM

@MichaelHomer are you ok?

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