TRPG General Chat

12:27 AM

If they go Land they're best thought of (I think) as a full caster with the additional ability to change into a nice, little utility animal occasionally. I'd handle the casting the same way I do with any other new player, and give them a simple statblock that represents "small animal" in case stats mattered.
(5hp, +3 to hit and a couple of damage, then maybe a situational trait like *keen senses* or *masks of the wild* or *pwetty widdle kitty* (auto-crit CHA checks to rub up against someone's leg.)

Oh, nvm. I just read on and saw it's starting at L6. That ^^ may not be terribly useful.

V2Blast

@Tiggerous In particular, the "difficulty" mostly comes from paralysis of choice, especially for Moon Druids (who have even more Wild Shape options since the CR limit is higher, so it's used for combat and not just scouting). They prepare spells which means they can change up every spell on a long rest, but usually you stick to a set that works and change out one or two as needed.

MikeQ

Oh I wasn't even considering the question of optimal play, I was thinking more about managing all those animal stat blocks and remembering which druid spells do what

BESW

12:45 AM

I thought 4e's solution was pretty elegant; you get daily powers to turn into different form that fill different roles, like one daily to become a defender, one daily to become a striker, etc. The precise aesthetic of the form is up to you when you use it, being a bear or a stegosaurus doesn't change your defender-form stats.

MikeQ

Did it handle summoning and polymorphing similarly? (AFAIK those use individual stat blocks for each type of creature)

BESW

Yeah, pretty much.

Mechanics and aesthetics are kept at arm's length from each other in 4e, and player characters never got to flip through a list of NPC/monster options and say "I want that."

Keeping PC and NPC mechanics separate allowed them to balance NPCs and monsters without also having to consider what happens when those mechanics fall into PC hands, which was a major struggle of 3.x.

(I made a 3.5 character whose transformation abilities let them treat the spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities of creatures in the monster manuals as their own unlimited spontaneous casting spell list.)

MikeQ

1:08 AM

Heh. I've played and seen similar characters in PF 1e. The problem wasn't fixed. It's a logistical nightmare for everyone involved.

Either the player has to become like a mini-GM, learning a whole new ruleset for the various monsters and monster templates. Otherwise, if they don't immediately gain all that extra system mastery, they get confused by the new stat blocks, and the game slows down.

BESW

Heh. PF didn't change anything fundamental about the d20 System and 3.x, it just replaced a few widgets and turned a couple dials a click or two.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, PF didn't really fix 3.5 at all IMO

BESW

And that was absolutely a feature, not a bug. Paizo came into their own as the continuation of 3.5, not its replacement.

Shalvenay

@BESW exactly

MikeQ

My complaints about PF aside, this still happens in 5e with summoning and morphing builds. "I turn into a ___ and attack. What do I roll?" or "I summon a ___. What can it do?"

The naive response to that is, well, require players to know how their character works in advance. But that encompasses a lot outside of their character sheet. Which then raises the question of how much system mastery you expect from your players, and whether that's fair to them.

BESW

1:17 AM

Yup.

MikeQ

That was a mistake I made back when I started DMing. The mindset of "If I need to learn the system before session 1, then so do my players." Nope. Doesn't work that way.

BESW

My group tried to share the burden, but eventually we moved to systems with less burden to share.

user15026

1:53 AM

I always feel bad when I have to be like oh no I can't hold the bits, and with D&D and the like there are so many bits.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ the answer is "you roll a d20" Attacks roll a d20 ;)

@MikeQ By session 3, if the character has not invested effort into getting to know their character, I can't do it for them. (I'll coach now and again to keep play moving) The old "you get out of it what you put into it" applies to a lot of life. D&D included.

2

with digital comms, it is easy to text or email with questions/points of discussion. I encourage it.

Black Spike

@KorvinStarmast You'd think so, wouldn't you? We have a Forum for our wider-group's games, but it is living up to it's name of "The Mute Point". WE are the only game that uses it, and by "we", I mean "i post every now and then, and get ignored"

V2Blast

@Ash a lot of bits indeed

KorvinStarmast

@BlackSpike heh, I see similar results on our r20 forum for one of our games.

Black Spike

@KorvinStarmast We can't even get one of our players to read the forum! Several years of trying, and he still has excuses ("forgot my log-in" (that is not needed), "no time", "what's the URL again?" ...)

MikeQ

2:07 AM

I dunno. People have lives outside of TTRPGs. Assuming players know the system as well as the DM tends to produce in-game disagreements and frustrations. And besides, there's a limit to how much homework is required for a hobby before it starts to alienate people.

trogdor

Yeah

Black Spike

@MikeQ All true. There are very different 'etiquette's for pick-up games, and regular games.

trogdor

You can't expect everyone to read a book in order to play a game

Even people who like reading might not want to do that

Black Spike

I'm lucky to live in an area with lots of clubs, and "private" groups, there is lots of scope for people to gravitate towards the style of game they like. Casual, heavy-RP, almost-pure-combat, Rules-heavy, rules-light, you name it, there's probably a Table you can join somewhere ...

Hot RPG Questions

6

Q: Can the Fortress spell be dispelled?

Does Dispel Magic work against the Mighty Fortress spell? My GM and I couldn't decide what to do.

jgn

5:41 AM

@trogdor You can so long as you are clear about your expectations upfront!

trogdor

5:54 AM

@jgn I mean, yes the same is true for the fact that some people will read a book to play a game, but my statement still stands that not everyone can be expected to

It depends on the individual person, on the book and the game, on the group they are with, how they feel, how many spoons they have, any number of factors that change from person to person, group to group, or even the same person/people at separate times

user15026

6:10 AM

If people expect that of me...theyre generally gonna be super sorry when I invariably can't. :/

trogdor

6:27 AM

Yeah

That's all I'm saying

Literally, not everyone is gonna be ready for that use of time, or that level of commitment, or simply that level of expectancy

Or whatever other things or reasons I can't think of, don't want to spend all that time mentioning, or haven't even thought of

When I say not everyone, I don't mean everyone won't

I mean not quite everyone will

For whatever reason

And that should honestly be respected just as much as the people who will

and I don't say it to disparage the people who will read a book to play a game

I happen to be a person who both will and will not read a book to play a game

what that means is that sometimes I will and sometimes I won't

if I really like the game and feel up to it (simplification here) I'll read it

if not, I won't

jgn

6:53 AM

Sure, but it's about mutual respect. I think most people are happy to accommodate others to a limit. If a player consistently doesn't do their homework then they are relying on the goodwill of others for the basics of gameplay. If a player doesn't upload their end of the social contract then others are justified in kicking them out.

trogdor

7:14 AM

@jgn it kinda disturbs me that you have to word it that way

like if someone doesn't want to read the book they should be kicked out of the game?

I hope that's not what you mean

BESW

Yeah, that's... not what's being talked about here at all, you're taking it to a weird place.

trogdor

I mean, I won't say every group is fit for every person, but I will say, if your basis for kicking someone out of your game/whole-group-altogether is "well they didn't read the book",..... that doesn't seem very cool

or very respectful

BESW

When I've got a friend who can't read the system material, I change the system, not the friend.

Sometimes that just means finding ways for them to play without reading the material; Troggy helped me do that with at least one friend in our 4e campaign.

Sometimes it means changing the way we use the system at the table, like finding better tracking interfaces. And sometimes it just means finding a different game to play entirely.

I learned long ago, and still learn over and over, that the friends I'm playing with are more important than the game we're playing.

trogdor

7:30 AM

@BESW yeah true

he didn't want to read all those rules, he just wanted to know what his character was capable of

I loved diving into the system so I helped him, and we both got something out of it

I loved keeping track of two characters at once (at least) mine and his

BESW

Yeah, I was usually GMing that group but Troggy was our System Master.

trogdor

he loved being able to tell me "I want to be able to do this stuff" and just being able to do it

he played a push fighter, which,... technically wasn't origionally what he was asking for

but then he realized how cool it was that he could throw people across the room and he loved it XD

BESW

And somebody else would take whiteboard duties for tracking conditions and things, and someone else would track all the initiatives. It was a group effort.

trogdor

yeah

the burden definitely should be shared

I'm not saying "oh just make the DM read the book and have them do all the work"

that's toxic behavior in itself

BESW

And having Trogdor help coordinate everybody's builds and mechanics meant the whole party gel better because he could make sure character synergized, which helped the story because the team's cohesion manifested mechanically in every battle.

trogdor

7:34 AM

even if it isn't necessarily intentional

but like, for some people they have a limit to what they can do

what they maybe can contribute

sometimes the system is too complex

BESW

Yeah, I started that campaign trying to be the system master and track everything and... it wasn't working for me long-term.

trogdor

sometimes they don't have the free time to both play a game for hours and read a whole D&D size rulebook (or multiple! for chris sake!)

BESW

But sharing the load across the group actually led to other players feeling empowered to also become GMs, because they got a better sense of what it entailed and they knew we'd all support them the way they were all supporting me.

trogdor

whatever the reason anyway

people should definitely contribute what they can to the group

BESW

But what people can contribute... differs depending on the person. And the system. And some systems ask more than some people are in a position to give.

trogdor

7:36 AM

but sometimes you might think someone is just being lazy when in reality, they like their freinds and want to play something but they don't have the something you have that lets you contribute

the free time, the head for the numbers, the enthusiasm, the headspace, the infinity other things it could be

BESW

And I'd rather change what is being asked of my friends.

jgn

@trogdor If the group's expectations are to know the rules, then of course there is leeway but you can't keep using the same excuse for years. At some point it should be accepted that there is incompatibility.

trogdor

and yeah, 4e asked a lot

it happened to ask a lot in a way that I could give but not everyone in the group could

BESW

I've learned so much by looking for innovative ways to work with what I and my friends can realistically bring to the table.

"Excuse"? It feels like you're having a completely different conversation here.

Not a line of conversation I'm interested in moving onto, either. I'mo go plan dinner. Thanks for reminiscing with me, Troggy!

trogdor

@BESW yep

@jgn I think we are talking past each other, I don't know if I can possibly make you understand what I am saying, I think I get your point but you seem to see it in a completely different light than what I am talking about

sorry

jgn

7:45 AM

@trogdor No, I understand what you are saying, but there is a whole group of people to consider here. Managing expectations can be tricky if you have to constantly make exceptions. It really limits the kind of games you can run if you can never have any expectations, right?

Changing the system could solve your problem, but only so long as the rest of the group is ok with it.

trogdor

@jgn yeah but what I mean is, you can't throw the baby out with the bath water

jgn

Sure, but you don't need all the babies to be in the same bath

trogdor

mk well

jgn

Some babies can go in one bath, some babies you can see on the weekend for drinks, etc

trogdor

we disagree on that

sorry

jgn

7:48 AM

Ok :3

@trogdor You don't have to be sorry for disagreeing mate, no worries

trogdor

fair enough

I just didn't want it to sound like I was mad about it

jgn

No no, not at all. You did not come across as mad or anything. Thanks for the consideration.

trogdor

no problem

V2Blast

8:16 AM

I was going to ask here about whether a homebrew magic item my DM gave me is as OP as it seems, then I wondered if it would be more appropriate for mainsite... but it feels like it'd be opinion-based to ask if a thing is "OP" when I don't know what to compare it against

My DM gave my level 4 black dragonborn vengeance paladin in a Princes of the Apocalypse D&D 5e campaign a shield that does this (req. attunement):

MikeQ

@trogdor It's a harsher way than I'd normally put it, but it's true to some extent. The social contract is important. And removing a player from a group doesn't need to be unfriendly - there are ways to have a civil chat with a player and realize that they're simply not a good fit for the group.

V2Blast

> Platinum Tower Shield
(requires attunement)
- Your Constitution score increases by 2, to a maximum of 20.
- You gain a +2 bonus to AC against ranged attacks while you wield this shield. This bonus is in addition to the shield's normal bonus to AC.
- In addition, whenever an attacker makes a ranged attack against a target within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to become the target of the attack instead.
- You can spend an amount of movement equal to half your speed to have half cover until the start of your next turn. If you do this, then you are an obstacle to a target and you gr…

trogdor

@MikeQ this is also true

V2Blast

It feels like too many things, and too many good things with little cost

trogdor

sometimes it doesn't work out

V2Blast

8:19 AM

It's the first magic item this character has really gotten for himself... He's currently wearing chain mail.
Other party members (hobgoblin wizard, half-elf draconic bloodline sorcerer) have, like, a +1 weapon or two (one of whom was an Arcane Trickster rogue but her character died last session).
There was a Wand of Magic Missiles that the wizard used all the charges of, and rolled a nat. 1 so it broke (per the rules).
We also found a Driftglobe that I technically have but am unsure how to make effective use of. And we collectively have a Bag of Holding.

MikeQ

@V2Blast Yes, that's significantly more powerful than what your allies currently have and what a 4th level character typically gets. But maybe it's necessary for a higher-difficulty campaign. Maybe the others will get better items soon.

@trogdor I've definitely been in groups where some players never paid attention, or hardly showed up, yet the difficulty was balanced for a full party. So things became tougher on the players who were actually trying to play. Eventually the group fell apart due to unfun.

trogdor

and I won't say that is an invalid perspective either

MikeQ

I don't think forcefully booting players for lack of system mastery would've been a fair solution, however we would've benefited from an out-of-game Talk about player priorities.

trogdor

yes

that I think is a fair way to put it

I do think it's harsh to forcefully boot someone without at the very least having a group talk about it or something

maybe even multiple times

also, some of our groups have just switched to like, board games when we didn't have a full enough group for something

MikeQ

Feb 16 '17 at 3:54, by Mike Q

I don't mean to imply that they are "bad" players. Usually, their goofiness provides a much appreciated humor. The problem is when the experienced players intervene and make decisions for them. That's unfair to the new players. But the alternative is unfair to the in-game party.

trogdor

8:28 AM

not saying that's like, a universal solution

but I just mean, looking for some other way to resolve it, talking it out, and other attempts at figuring out the problem are my preferred resolutions before kicking someone out of a group gets involved

also it helps that a lot of our games are on online voice chat now (IE Discord basically)

sometime people still can't make it

but sometimes they otherwise wouldn't have been able to but because of the medium we are using (see above, online in a voice chat) they can

and sometimes, say example a la last week, we are able to put together a game with people not regularly in the group, as it were

IE a more or less pickup game

even though about half of us couldn't make it that time we still ended up with the same number of players because we filled in with a couple other people

Miniman

@V2Blast That's the problem with evaluating balance on all magic items, they're intrinsically OP because they're a power boost that doesn't use up a character resource.

V2Blast

@Miniman Pretty much :P

Miniman

But yeah, that's a really powerful magic item.

kviiri

@MikeQ I've seen this too, but I prefer to approach these as problems with the games (or systems) rather than with people, mainly because I've had a few really obvious cases.

Eg. in DL:RL, one guy who hadn't exactly planned their character well had a lousy Spirit score and was constantly stunlocked in some combats. I can hardly blame him for playing Hearthstone at the same time.

That game had seriously grating design to me, but at least by what I've heard Savage Worlds has dropped some of the worst mechanics in errata and newer editions. I still cringe a bit when people offer it as a truly generic system, though.

trogdor

8:48 AM

Yeah I mean, basically, my point on this is that sometimes the problem isn't specifically the person or people involved being incompatible with or as a group

Sometimes the problem is a schedule issue

Sometimes the system doesn't work for everyone

Sometimes someone was just late or busy that day

It doesn't mean keep everyone in your group together at all cost but just seek other options before an expulsion from the group happens

I prefer to see that as the nuclear option

Anyway, even outside that context, as a sort of side tangent, I recommend trying different systems even when you're whole group is meshing together really well XD

I remember when the only TTRPG I played was D&D

I had fun, don't get me wrong, but I would never go back to only playing that

Even if it were my favorite edition, 4e

Pierre Cathé

Good morning !

kviiri

Hi Pierre!

@trogdor I could still see myself running DnD, but after the trudge that CoS was and an uninspiring return to homebrew campaigns I think I'm better off sticking to games that have better assurances for payload per minute :)

My last, to date, DnD campaign as a player began with a cool setpiece combat encounter in a collapsing tavern built on a pier, but after that it went into boring "open doors, find a few gold, rinse and repeat" mansion exploration routine that bored me senseless

trogdor

9:06 AM

yeah

sad to say my second to last D&D game I ran myself, and I mostly just did combat encounters repeatedly

I had intended to do better than that but I had stretched myself a little thin

and it sorta just fell apart eventually

kviiri

The second session was an implausibly-prolonged combat that I'm not sure if the GM had planned to be super deadly but we barely survived it after managing to jam a door in order to have a short rest on the other side. The third session, the GM basically hand-held us to a smuggler ship where we got our butts whooped by the crew. I'm not sure if the GM even intended it to be a balanced encounter or if he wanted to setup some sort of three-session prologue to a campaign where we escape from slavers

We were really thin on our resources before defeating even half of the crew, they had a wizard under the deck, and our only advantage was stealth which the GM decided was off at the first failed stealth check

trogdor

X(

kviiri

Once we were down to two characters, I decided we should escape, knowing our GM is a bit of a fan of "do what your character would do" mentality. The other stayed. The session ended there, the GM told us we were captured and let me know I could either stick near the ship to try bust them out or create a new character who'd be a slave in the same galley. This was a natural point to stop, for me

V2Blast

ah

kviiri

I'm a bit bummed though

This is the first major game in the roughly same circle of friends I'm not a part of

And also the first time they have no scheduling difficulties whatsoever

During the CoS campaign I was constantly pulling my hair out over unanswered doodles and other communication attempts because no one else would schedule it

vicky_molokh

9:23 AM

Regarding the whole Expectations, System Mastery, Social Contracts and Booting Players thing, I think there's some sort of disconnect because different participants in the discussion have different ways of choosing players for the group. There's 'pick up games' and there is 'fixed circle of friends choosing a game', but there are also things like 'X is a popular GM and needs to pick 6 players out of 25-50 candidates when a campaign starts, and maintain campaign quality'.

And the needs, and explicit expectations, and implicit expectations, and approaches, and what is fair to whom, vary between those. And between campaigns.

kviiri

^ That's certainly true

There's different kinds of "markets" for different kinds of people

I think most of my friends'll just play whatever and I'm the outlier for being quick to prioritize other hobbies in front of RPGs if I don't like them

vicky_molokh

There's indeed also the question of prioritisation, yes. Some people are no longer in their youth and don't switch priorities as quickly as easily as the stereotypical university student.

kviiri

I am the university student of the group :D (well, most of us have been, some have dropped out already)

Turns out full working week + research project + relationship + hobbies are a hard thing to stabilize.

Oh yeah and one actually graduated

rare

vicky_molokh

I remember my student years of RPGing. Campaigns were 'cheap' in the sense that everyone started them at the drop of a hat, people easily switches timetables with no prior warning, joined campaigns easily, and if the enemy mage turned your vampire into a chair, you just immediately made a werewolf abomination to avenge it.

Things are not like that nowadays. Fitting a campaign into a timetable got harder.

Stability became a concern.

Characters are getting more investment because campaigns and the quality of play experience became something cherished.

kviiri

Some people in my circles are even having kids.

I've been advocating the reverse, that we should be doing more one-shots because everyone knows by experience that those years-long mega-campaigns will be slain by campaign fatigue.

But well. I guess I should be running those myself to get any support for my idea.

I think our group had, back in the days we started, a variety of influences into what TTRPGs are like. Some had friends who had played for long (since their early teens, back when megacampaigns were easier to arrange). Some had seen stories on the internet about a variety of "long cons" pulled by players or GMs. And of course the very rulebook says levels go to 30, and many of us wanted to see our characters go there.

I guess we haven't had similar "hey, this is cool too" moments for one-shots, except myself who's been playing more of them and speaking to people who do them more often eg. here.

Pierre Cathé

10:05 AM

@vicky_molokh I've been experiencing something similar, where we used to do a kind of monster-of-the-week play where each week we'd just play with whoever showed up to beat this week's evil wizard/dragon/corrupt politician, but now we're playing with a more constrained group and canceling if someone can't make it, because we're all pretty invested in the whole intrigue

Also just so y'all know, I asked my girlfriend to marry me yesterday and she said yes !

vicky_molokh

@kviiri I know many people have fun with one-shots, but to me they just don't provide the things that I find cool in RPGs. By the time I get a feel for the PC, for the plot etc., it's over.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh I kinda feel the same way about these would-be megacampaigns we've been having

There's usually a lot of tiring setup that kills the campaign by the time we would've gotten to whatever good stuff the GM had set up for us

vicky_molokh

@kviiri Ah, that. One thing I learned: the thing needed to make a campaign into a megacampaign, is that the campaign should be built to survive its first hundred sessions. And to survive the first hundred sessions, it must have fun stuff happening right away. Because if you need to wait the first quarter-hundred sessions to get to the fun stuff, chances are high that it'll fall apart before reaching that milestone.

Hot RPG Questions

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Q: How do unusually long jumps work?

I am slightly confused about how far a PC can jump in combat. On page 182, the PHB defines the mechanics of the long jump: When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing...

dnd-5e skills movement battle-map

kviiri

@vicky_molokh yep

vicky_molokh

10:21 AM

Like in strategy games, you need to factor in both short- and long-term concerns. You must be good enough to ward off a rush (or there will be no future even in the mid-term), but you must also be good enough to maintain growth (or you will soon lose the future past the mid-term).

kviiri

I personally have a difficulty conceptualizing any campaign which I'd like to last for more than a few dozen sessions though

Even if it was good, I mean, I like variety so it would have to be very good to be better than the alternative of having a handful of shorter campaigns.

Miniman

@vicky_molokh I would divide all those numbers by a hundred.

kviiri

10:38 AM

Does "first" count as a number?

Hot RPG Questions

11:20 AM

1

Q: Dual wielding 2, +1 Longswords, do they stack? Or is it useless?

In my campaign my character has the opportunity to dual wield two +1 longswords. I'm just wondering if it's effective to do so or just a flex for my character.

dnd-5e magic-items weapons stacking

vicky_molokh

12:54 PM

@Miniman "0.01 things I learned . . ."

doppelgreener

Incidentally there was a D&D 4e campaign I had going on when my group switched over to Fate instead. The 4e campaign had a lot of fun stuff available, but also a lot of filler was needed to level up the characters to reach the fun stuff. One thing @BESW and I realised when we were examining it at one point was Fate not having levels means there was no longer any need for filler.

We could just jump into whatever part of the story was most exciting to start at.

vicky_molokh

Well, some variants of it have Stunt Trees, and I felt that some of those have early levels that I would rather not buy at all.

But generally this returns to the similar design principle: when designing long prerequisite trees, lower-level prerequisites should be cool too!

doppelgreener

1:10 PM

I agree

D&D 4e in particular did an awesome job of that

Miniman

@vicky_molokh Heh, nice.

doppelgreener

Every class starts off with their most awesome features right from the start, and things just build on those and let you use them in new fun ways

Compare Pathfinder and 3.x which only give you awesome features so late they won't be very awesome at that point, and which usually give you initial prerequisites that are bad because the payoff is great

goodguy5

@doppelgreener Pathfinder is "worse" about that because it was "fixing" multiclass dipping from 3.5

doppelgreener

Oh dear. That makes sense out of that.

goodguy5

I can't find the guide quickly, but a commonly regarded "Mandatory" rogue build was something like.
1 rogue
2-4 Swashbuckler
5-8 Rogue

Then you took shadowdancer for a few levels at some point.

I'll actually agree with Pathfinder in that 3.5 had vast seas of nothing in the middle of classes. You'd get some good stuff in the first 4 levels, then some good stuff in the last three levels.

The other 13 levels were usually just feat buffers or mild increases to your existing abilities.

KorvinStarmast

1:29 PM

@BlackSpike yeah, I know the feeling.

@MikeQ This is true. about time, but all you have to know is your character, as the player. This isn't about know the game as well as the DM.

goodguy5

I was talking to a friend of mine Thursday who's starting playing a game. She's so clocked out with the rules and nuance (which would drive me insane as a DM).

She said "Our DM said that Sarah used the wrong rules to make her character. I'm just going to send her what I have and tell her to figure it out, I don't care about all those numbers"

I wanted to cringe so hard.

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast bloated, maybe legendary due to all those features. A bit much for level 4 unless all encounters are deadly

@V2Blast drift globe is handy if the DM enforces darkness rules.

Someone_Evil

@V2Blast That reads like an artefact to me, in terms of power level

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh bravo, well said, and there is that bit about matching expectations to "who shows up"

Someone_Evil

@V2Blast We have a lot of questions which are "What is rarity of this homebrew magic item" Rarity is largely a measure of magic item power level in 5e

Carcer

2:01 PM

@Someone_Evil Rarity is largely an arbitrary measure of nothing

goodguy5

2:11 PM

I wish they'd used a different word.

Like, If there's a Wizard thousands of years ago who made exactly 10 swords that deal 2d6 necrotic damage to angels, and 1d4 damage to anything else.

Those 10 items would be "very rare", in terms of words.

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 I think they wanted it to be more like their card game. :p The idea behind it isn't a bad one "around this level you'd see this kind of power boost"

Someone_Evil

@KorvinStarmast The idea of rarity=power level is quite widespread in games. It's not just WotC

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil Indeed, and I play a bit of Hearthstone. They do the same thing.

I have a piece of notebook paper on where I sketched out the Rod of Seven Parts. the idea is that based on how you put it together, it's power level slowly rises until it hits artifact.

This for fifth edition. But honestly, for my campaign, it will be the Rod of Five parts. Five people seems to be about the sweet spot for party size.

@Carcer It's not arbitaray - it's imprecise and overlaps a bit.

Carcer

@KorvinStarmast we have questions on site which pretty confidently establish it is so imprecise as to be almost useless. Rarity is a very very bad measure of an item's power/utility.

KorvinStarmast

2:31 PM

@Carcer No, not almost useless. It is broadly useful as a rough gage of where they fit into a campaign, but (for sure) certain discrete items do not fit that broad approach. Certain spells don't fit the general model either.

Broom of flying comes to mind as one that pushes hard against the edges

It does not need six digits of precision to be useful.

NautArch

howdy howdy

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer beyond that, my champion has a cursed +1 sword (level 14) that has been useful since level 4 when he found it/attuned to it. (The rest of the party still does not seem to know that it is cursed; even though the few times I have used my longbow I end up missing).

@NautArch o/

@Carcer It being useful (and not needing to be upgraded as I go up in level) fits nicely into the bounded accuracy idea in this edition.

NautArch

Is that question on jumping (which I still think is too broad) really a duplicate of this question and is just another way of asking it?

KorvinStarmast

2:49 PM

@NautArch my two cents is "related but not a dupe" ...

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, I"m not sure. Definitely related, but the new question is basically asking the old one. Can you jump beyond your movement and if so, what happens?

i'm not seeing a functional difference between the two. Just two different ways of asking the same thing.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch The functional difference strikes me as to why John's answer covered part of the question and then linked to "the rest is answered here"

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast that part is included in the linked one, too. It's part of "what happens".

Or it could just be pared down to "is this possible" and then cite the related link in comments. But I'm not usre about just linking to another answer as an answer.

@V2Blast Updated my answer on Wayfinder's. Doesn't seem like my original answer changed much.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I am hoping Mars will edit it for clarification. If you want to dupe hammer it, I'll not be bothered.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Yup! That is different.

I don't think it's a dupe, but highly related. I still think Mars should start with a single question of can you do it.

And then a followup of what things people have used to handle it when it's come up if they've allowed it.

KorvinStarmast

3:04 PM

@NautArch Yeah, that might make it clearer for all.

NautArch

too late for me to edit out possible dupe

but that's okay

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch hooray for engaging with asker and getting question improvement.

NautArch

And hooray for asker being receptive! Team win!

@KorvinStarmast talking to Mars about question edits.

Ugh, can't decide who to give my bounty to on the lore bard cutting words question. Was all-in on Rykara, but then Ryan Thompson put up a really good one. I think it's Ryan it goes to.

Carcer

3:34 PM

36

A: Is item rarity really tied to how powerful it is?

Rarity and usefulness/power are very weakly correlated, in my experience. This has been discussed elsewhere (reddit, GitP, ENWorld), primarily when 5e was first released. I'll point you to my favorite resource, the Sane Magical Prices Index by GitP user Saidoro: I've used it for years in order t...

but you've commented on that, so I'm not exactly providing anything new

NautArch

@Carcer THe whole rarity thing seems weird to me, too. Power is very campaign-specific, especially with 5e being written to play just fine without any.

nitsua60

Just remember: if you want to give multiple bounties on a question they have to be in increasing value-increments.

@NautArch Need something edited?

NautArch

@nitsua60 yeah, i don't think i want to provide a 2nd, it's just a harder choice than i thought it was going to be :)

nitsua60

That's a good problem to have =)

NautArch

@nitsua60 The parenthetical bit on this comment

nitsua60

3:47 PM

done

NautArch

@nitsua60 grazie!

nitsua60

Prego.

Yuuki

@nitsua60 am i gregnant?

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer weakly correlated does not equal useless. That's all I'm getting at.

kviiri

Well, it kinda depends on whether it's tolerably close all the time or perfectly accurate 90% of the time and totally bonkers the rest of the time.

NautArch

4:05 PM

and that's hard to tell at times.

Yuuki

@kviiri 60% of the time, it's accurate 100% of the time.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri spells are not equally balanced, in their effects; should I thus toss refer to spell casting as useless? No. Of course not.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast That is a false comparison.

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast You mean spell levels?

kviiri

I mean, you're comparing a metric to a mechanic.

KorvinStarmast

4:08 PM

@kviiri Not really, I mean within a level, there are variations of usefulness/power.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I get what you're saying here, but spells are also always-on and available (unless a DM removes, but then that's a bit out of standard.) But magic items are purely up to the DM as to what's allowed and which.

Unless we're talking AL. THen I don't understand. Because AL at this point just seems weird to me.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast You're comparing a metric to a mechanic. If there are significant power differences within spell levels, that's a balance issue for sure, but a power metric has literally no other purpose than to provide accessible insights about an item.

NautArch

<abrupt subject change> I started reading the Rick and Morty book.

For folks who like R&M, it's really funny. The breakdown of the core rules with R&M commentary is really good and amusing.

Started looking at the actual adventure, and seems like it'd be a hoot.

Yuuki

@NautArch While we're on the topic of abrupt subject changes, I got a sword over the weekend.

NautArch

@Yuuki Mall ninja?

:D

kviiri

4:13 PM

One of my friends is also getting one. PhD.

NautArch

Or are you a fencer?

Yuuki

@NautArch Actually, got it at the Renaissance festival.

But yeah, pretty much.

NautArch

@Yuuki hahaha, but very cool, still! Pic?

Yuuki

@NautArch But now I'm interested.

That's a queen-size mattress for scale, if that's helpful.

NautArch

that's purty!

I fenced for a number of years. My dad fenced epee in college, so he got me into it. Did mostly foil and some sabre.

but haven't done it since high school.

@Yuuki Do you watch Forged By Fire?

@nitsua60 Very interested to see which answer you think deserves a bounty on that jump question.

Pierre Cathé

4:31 PM

@Yuuki Following the abrupt subject change trend, my girlfriend and I got engaged yesterday

12

@Yuuki Nice !

NautArch

@PierreCathé Mazel Tov!!!

goodguy5

@PierreCathé yay!!!

NautArch

@PierreCathé Now you can continue the time-honored tradition of calling her your ex-girlfriend.

goodguy5

How long together? And how long are you planning to be engaged?

Pierre Cathé

@NautArch Haha I'm going to enjoy that !

KorvinStarmast

4:33 PM

@kviiri Not really. Referring to in game function. Spells levels 0-5, rarity levels 1-6 from common, uncommon, rare, very rare, legendary, artifact. The overlap is in situational utility. In some cases, 2d level hold person is more effective than fireball or fly (3d level). Likewise, in some cases an uncommon item more useful than a rare item. There is overlap. Moving up in rarity is not a step function.

Pierre Cathé

@goodguy5 Nearly 6 years together (with one year living together), and the wedding should be around April-May

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast I am not getting your point. Are you talking about spells, or spell levels?

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri Both.

goodguy5

@PierreCathé oh that's so exciting. Enjoy it.

Pierre Cathé

@goodguy5 Yeah it is, and I definitely will !

NautArch

4:35 PM

@PierreCathé I highly recommend, if you can do it, to not have a big wedding. Yes, it can be a truly amazing day, but spending the money that is normally spent on weddings is bonkers for that one day. I've had two, and really tried to not have the 2nd because of prior knowledge. But it was her first, so yeah.

Yuuki

@NautArch Nope.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Also, I think overlap doesn't begin to cover the issues there are with the rarity system.

NautArch

@Yuuki It's pretty cool. I'm not into 'reality' contests shows too much, but that one is neat.

It's pretty legit (it seems) and you learn a lot about how weapons are made.

Pierre Cathé

@NautArch Oh yeah we're planning to just host it at my parents' and my family has offered to help cooking

and <50 guests

NautArch

@PierreCathé boom! Well done :)

kviiri

4:36 PM

But still, you're comparing a mechanic to a metric. A mechanic might be poorly balanced in some edge cases but still be generally worthwhile. A metric is only valuable if it's reliable.

Pierre Cathé

So no caterer, no flower shop, no renting a place

kviiri

Just the fact that there are some tiers in both doesn't make them equal.

nitsua60

4:58 PM

@NautArch Well, more than one. And I have a long-standing (and -running, and possibly -jumping) disagreement with @Miniman on that particular question, IIRC =)

Hot RPG Questions

5:14 PM

3

Q: Gloom Stalker attacking when in darkness with ranged, Advantage on each attack?

I am trying a Gloom Stalker for the first time. Umbral Sight states "...While in darkness, you are invisible to any creature that relies on darkvision to see you in that darkness." I want to clarify this statement "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If...

dnd-5e class-feature ranger ranged-attack advantage-and-disadvantage

NautArch

@nitsua60 ah. I think I just upvoted miniman's answer :P

I'm just not sure I can get on board with extending a jump over several turns.

Carcer

5:32 PM

@PierreCathé my wedding had exactly 11 attendees, including me and my partner and the two officiants from the council

the reception was a little busier but not much. (Marriage on a student budget and crippling social anxiety are a great combination.)

congration regardless

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