@PhelypeOleinik I took a lot of care when writing each paragraph and drawing each figure. :) Some of them were printed and manually measured with a ruler.

@PhelypeOleinik also, I had the pleasure of using one of the best fonts available to TeX up to date. :) The result on paper was simply gorgeous.

@PauloCereda Luuucida as Little Richard (should have) sung.

@mickep ooh :)

@JosephWright impressions from doceng: twitter.com/acmdoceng

@UlrikeFischer I've 're-tweeted' the photos :)

Looks like the @texfaq Twitter idea has legs

@UlrikeFischer Anyone notable there? Adobe for example?

@JosephWright left from me, (get the whole foto from the collection)

@UlrikeFischer ooh

@UlrikeFischer ooh the companion bloke

@JosephWright Teh LaThreeX bloke.

@PauloCereda Oh, wow, that's more attention to detail than I expected. But indeed, your thesis document which doesn't exist looks beautiful!

@UlrikeFischer somewhere around there I see twitter.com/ansgarscherp/status/1176472356430188544 :-)

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I saw his talk - one of the many about "how to extract with a computer information from a document" ;-)

@PauloCereda: you would perhaps be interested in the music talk: Augmenting Music Sheets with Harmonic Fingerprints. I didn't understand everything because of my missing music skill, but it sounded quite sensible. They add some color code to music themes:

twitter.com/mathematicsprof/status/1177622825424826370?s=09

@CarLaTeX "... probably knows ..." hehe

@UlrikeFischer very nice!

@PauloCereda if you are interested I can sent you the pdf of the paper.

@UlrikeFischer I'd love to!

@PauloCereda mail sent. On other news Gert saved another duck from slavery in a hotel bathroom:

@UlrikeFischer ooh

@UlrikeFischer dinner for the bear I assume

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@PauloCereda do you want the bear to starve?

@Skillmon oh no

@Skillmon they all eat chocolate

@PauloCereda chocolate isn't healthy for carnivores, do you want the bear to get sick?

@Skillmon oh no

@Skillmon there might be ostriches around

@Skillmon rubber ducks aren't healthy either.

@UlrikeFischer my whole life is a lie! Mum why did you lie to me?

@UlrikeFischer oh no

@Skillmon oh no

@Skillmon That's what parents do.

hyperref just moved

@DavidCarlisle yes saw it. Just checking if I committed everything yesterday ;-)

@UlrikeFischer I still have to look at xr-hyper and I may have another attempt to get l3build ctan working

@JosephWright IT'S A WITCH

Oh I haven't noticed the S, sorry. :)

@DavidCarlisle any comment about github.com/latex3/hyperref/issues/103#issuecomment-536025218?

@UlrikeFischer no I didn't have much time last week, I did look but I failed to understand the original issue, I think. (the one that caused the original change)

@DavidCarlisle the original change was to get a warning about a non-working \hypersetup{pdftitle=xxxx} on page two. Without the change the command does nothing but silently. Imho that is less problematic than an error ...

@UlrikeFischer well the way you describe it sounds like the change was wrong:-)

@DavidCarlisle yes looks so ;-(. With all this unordered hook and at begin whatever code it is to dangerous.

@UlrikeFischer can you do the revert (since you clearly understand this better than me:-)

@DavidCarlisle yes.

thanks

@mickep :):):)

@DavidCarlisle I get an error when trying to run l3build install in hyperref. Should I blame you or @JosephWright?

C:\texlive\2019\bin\win32\runscript.tlu:927: build.lua:16: '}' expected (to close '{' at line 14) near 'flatten'

@DavidCarlisle you forgot a closing brace ;-)

@UlrikeFischer Huh?

@JosephWright it was a typo in the build lua, a } was missing.

@JosephWright hyperref should be uploaded - there is some code missing in nameref. But imho it is relevant only if someone uses rollback code.

@UlrikeFischer oops, I had some other local changes which i backed out before commit but ...

@JosephWright it's a witch. :)

@Skillmon ducksay uses commands which will be deprecated in 2020:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[enable-debug]{expl3}
\ExplSyntaxOn
\debug_on:n{deprecation}
\ExplSyntaxOff
\usepackage{ducksay}

\begin{document}
\ducksay{Correct me!}
\end{document}

@Skillmon and duckuments too ...

@UlrikeFischer No Repo for a PR or two?

@UlrikeFischer Requests in for media9, cellprops, ...

@JosephWright i thought we try the easy way first ... ;-) Such a nice duck ;-)

@UlrikeFischer Ah yes, just /quack

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer Perhaps we should have a list to check the status of the packages (no action taken, PR sent, and updated, or something like that)...

@JosephWright imho the largest and most difficult bunch is acro etc. There PR should probably be done. But quite a lot of the other should work with a mail/ticket, e.g. luatexja, luatexko.

@PhelypeOleinik ooh a naughty list

@JosephWright ooh quack indeed

@PhelypeOleinik I'm just trying to get an overview by author.

@PauloCereda Yes!

@PauloCereda git commit -m 'Accept this PR or Krampus will come for you'

@UlrikeFischer Hm... That's a better idea :-)

@UlrikeFischer Good plan

@JosephWright notes2bib ...

@UlrikeFischer Done

@UlrikeFischer Literally just to sent to CTAN

@UlrikeFischer ctan.org/incoming

@JosephWright see sometimes a short message works ;-)

@UlrikeFischer I'd not got a local checkout: it's more-or-less 'clean' expl3 code, uses no recent functions, so it's not been updated for about 3 years!

@DavidPurton pdfoverlay contains commands which will be deprecated in 2020:

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer I already mailed the author of witharrows. It's his only package in our naughty list.

And selnolig is a false positive. The code which used a \xetex_...:D function is no longer used (and in the documentation).

@PhelypeOleinik, @UlrikeFischer Like I said on the list, I think a week or two and we can sweep all of these up

LaTeX2020 branch now fixed, I think :)

Time for a CTAN update ...

@JosephWright I sent you a mail with the list.

@UlrikeFischer thanks for pointing out, will look into it!

@UlrikeFischer is there a list available with commands that will be deprecated?

@Skillmon All of \pdftex_...:D, \xetex_...:D, etc. (except for \tex_...:D). Integer constants \c_zero, \c_one..., \c_ten_thousand, \lua_(now|escape|shipout)_x:n, \msg_log:n, \msg_term:n, \msg_interrupt:nn, \str_case_x:nn(TF), \str_if_eq_x(_p):nn(TF), and \tl_show_analysis:(n|N).

@PhelypeOleinik thx, culprit is \c_zero, will \c_zero_int stay?

@PhelypeOleinik and why will \tl_show_analysis:(n|N) be deprecated? I found it really useful for debugging.

@Skillmon Yes, \c_zero_int stays. But all integer constans (which do not end with _int) will be deprecated: zero|one|two|three|four|five|six|seven|eight|nine|ten|eleven|twelve|thirteen|fourteen|fifteen|sixteen|thirty_two|one_hundred|two_hundred_fifty_five|two_hundred_fifty_six|one_thousand|ten_thousand

@Skillmon \tl_anslysis_show:n stays, \tl_show_anslysis:n leaves :-)

@Skillmon duckuments and ducksay only have the integer constants. The rest is fine

@PhelypeOleinik ok, just naming convention things here :)

@PhelypeOleinik yeah, I know, already checked, but thanks :)

@PhelypeOleinik can we deprecate any command with duck in its name?

@DavidCarlisle no, how else should you produce a duckumentation for any package?

@DavidCarlisle You would need to deprecate dinner as well...

@PhelypeOleinik s/deprec/e/

Is there some easy way to convert a text file to a PDF file on the command line using TeX, without wrapping it in TeX code first?

It appears pandoc uses TeX behind the scenes to do this, but it isn't exactly a TeX thing.

And oddly, it's creating it as a letter sized PDF.

@Skillmon github.com/latex3/latex3/blob/master/l3kernel/l3obsolete.txt

@Skillmon Name change as we needed other \tl_analysis_... things

@JosephWright where did the L3 colour support moved to? (there used to be stuff like \driver_color_gray:n, are those in l3draw now?

@Skillmon We moved all of the driver stuff to an 'internal-only' set up in l3backend, so for example that's now \__color_backend_gray:n, as it's an internal part of \color_...

@JosephWright and in which package are those \color_... macros now? They are not part of expl3 are they? If so their documentation is missing in interface3.

@Skillmon They are used by the experimental package l3color. The backend code is used across l3kernel/l3experimental, hence the rearrangement

@Skillmon Probably the colour code is more-or-less ready to move to expl3, but there are a few other things to sort out first (@DavidCarlisle: thoughts?)

@JosephWright just found l3color in the texmf. Unfortunately texdoc l3color opens up interface3, though l3color has its own documentation. Sometimes texdoc is strange.

@Skillmon That's Not My Fault

@JosephWright I know. I should get more used to using texdoc -l

@Skillmon Once we do integrate l3color, of course, it will be right

@JosephWright sure. Funny thing is, that I used \driver_color_.... in the documentation of duckuments, just for the sake of it. Now I'm loading l3color (why again don't I just use xcolor?).

@Skillmon Yeah, that was something a bit dodgy, or at least problematic: the driver/backend code was only ever meant to support the 'next level up'

@JosephWright hmmm

@Skillmon There are lot bits to get right, it takes time for us to line up everything: we are working on it!

twitter.com/ansgarscherp/status/1176472356430188544

@JosephWright you guys are awesome, thank you for all the work you're doing!

@JosephWright I think we could use a certain fund. :)

New versions of ducksay and duckuments uploaded to CTAN, should be fine now.

@Skillmon Great: thanks

@JosephWright if I had the slightest idea of the colour system I'd gladly help.

@Skillmon Oh, it's not colour that's the hold up: it's more I have to push lots of people to get stuff finished

@Skillmon Once the dust settles on current plans, I'll perhaps push for this (@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer, @egreg Thoughts on l3color-to-stable?)

@JosephWright tell me their addresses and I'll spend them a visit, so you don't have to push anymore :)

@JosephWright not looked recently but it was looking quite robust last time I did try it

@DavidCarlisle I'll probably raise on the team list once a few other tasks are done: after the 2019-10-01 release I suspect

@JosephWright could you please ping me once it is moved?

@Skillmon Sure: I take it this is important for you? That being the case, I can use this as a real use case

@JosephWright not really, just want to make sure that the documentation of duckuments builds without issues. I use one \color_select:nn { gray } { 0.5 } in the documentation.

@Skillmon OK, that is in the direction of wanting l3color in the kernel: there are reasons ('LaTeX2020') to support this

@JosephWright all the bigger projects of mine use xcolor if they need colour support.

@Skillmon Which parts of xcolor do you use: just the mixing syntax or more of the complex stuff?

@JosephWright LaTeX2020? :)

@mickep The Secret Plan ...

@JosephWright in the worst cases the table support (stupid requests of my university)

@mickep Kernel updates for next year

@Skillmon Ah, that's more tricky

@JosephWright Sounds good!

@mickep I'd vote for it, a few bad boxes, but overall solid result!

@JosephWright As far as I know there is no real table support in L3 yet, so I'm stuck with L2 tables anyway :)

@Skillmon Yes: there are plans, but I'd rather Bruno took this ..

@JosephWright will they be similar to L2 tables (assuming there are drafts already)?

@Skillmon Clearly we need some ideas from cellprops, but also probably to avoid using \halign at all, and do everything 'by hand', hence 'it's a Bruno job'

@Skillmon no real drafts, we'll need something like 2e tabular (if only for compatibility) but it might be good to have something as well that isn't so tied to \halign primitive "features" to avoid usual issues with things needing to be at start of a cell, or coloured backgrounds that don't eat rules, etc

@JosephWright but that would turn catcode changes into something hard to get.

@Skillmon anyone who changes catcodes should be banned from using l3:-)

@DavidCarlisle never having issues with coloured backgrounds eating (horizontal) rules. And no one in their right minds uses vertical rules (except the stupid university forces them)

@DavidCarlisle but what's with my verbatim columns?

@Skillmon No, not really: it's an environment not a macro, so would have \table_begin:/\table_end: pair and thus allow catcode changes

@Skillmon I'd like to be able to bake-in things like spreadtab, cellprops, ...

@Skillmon If we read the entire table, I can do the S column without needing table-format

@JosephWright if you want to stack everything up by hand without using the \.align primitives you'd need to process the widths yourself, clearly possible to do, but well... and I don't think you can get spreadtab like possibilities without eating as arguments.

@Skillmon You met Bruno? ;)

@Skillmon you can't use \cline and \hhline is ... somewhat strange, and even \hline is somewhat at the mercy of your pdf renderer due to the way colortbl adds the coloured panels.

@JosephWright not in person, but I tried to read some of his code.

@Skillmon Bruno has/had a plan for expandable random number generation and has written a regex engine in TeX: really, don't rule anything out

@DavidCarlisle have my own \cline like macro that supports this.

@Skillmon Which one?

@Skillmon what do you do to avoid the over-printing? (but the fact that you need to do anything is a sign the base code isn't as helpful as it could be)

@JosephWright in general some of his answers here, read some of the token manipulation things he did. Didn't start to read l3regex nor l3fp, but they are on my list. Especially the latter one should be really interesting, though most likely I'll have a hard time with it.

@Skillmon Now, you see, I've read all of expl3 ...

@JosephWright and, did you understand all of his <s>magic</s> code?

@Skillmon Yes, sometimes with a few reads, but I have had to check various bits of magic

@Skillmon What would be good would be to get him a room with Morten (@DavidCarlisle)

@DavidCarlisle the overall definition is just 247 lines of code...

@DavidCarlisle but much of that is argument parsing, output is just 32 lines.

@Skillmon not really asking about the implementation so much as timing, how do you put the line over the colour on the following row (delay it until after that row, or put them in at the end of the table?

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{l3color}
\expandafter\let\csname ver@color.sty\expandafter\endcsname
  \csname ver@l3color.sty\endcsname
\usepackage{xcolor}
\begin{document}
\textcolor{red}{OMG!}
\end{document}

@DavidCarlisle ^^^

@DavidCarlisle well, overprinting by stupid PDF readers isn't solved at all, my cline implementation just gets the definition of the entire row and handles it and doesn't issue a \vskip-\arrayrulewidth. In that regard it's similar to hhline. And it doesn't solve doubled rules, only single ones, but those with sufficient flexibility.

@Skillmon ah OK (so the final result will be more or less like \hhline then, OK, thanks) what I'd like to be able to do is have enough global control of the table that all the coloured backgrounds can be set first then the cell contents for the whole table, then the rules over the top (you can do that now with things like tikz, but having it more tabular like would be good)

@DavidCarlisle sounds good, but will that be possible without grabbing the table contents as arguments? I have no idea how that would've been done, but well, I couldn't have implemented longtable...

@Skillmon yes you can set things in boxes which don't freeze catcodes

@DavidCarlisle I could change it to apply the rule after the next line was set, but then I'd need to hook into tabular and I'm afraid I'd break things in conjunction with other packages, so I won't do that. And I'm satisfied with the results as they are.

@Skillmon well yes that's why colortbl is as it is, it's easy to see why it does things wrong, but hard to change that while sitting on the 2e tabular code.

Hi everybody. Please can you have a suggestion for a tool convert LaTeX->Unicode?

@Sebastiano Hu?

Hiii :-) Joseph. Can you see these link, please?

medium.com/@tylerneylon/…

golopot.github.io/tex-to-unicode

Google Chrome has an extension called TeX to Unicode

It is seem good, but it not works with the fractions $\frac{b}{c}$

@Sebastiano Unicode can only express a very limited range of maths concepts in linear form

@JosephWright There is a reason because I'm searching a tool to convert to LaTeX to Unicode.

@Sebastiano You simply can't express some concepts in Unicode, sorry

What would \frac{b}{c} be in unicode? I don't think it exists.

@mickep @JosephWright Hi also to you. Can you see this link? At the top there is also the flag of the United Kingdom for to use the English language.

siverapp.com/Account/Login?ReturnUrl=%2f

@JosephWright In my school, unfortunately, to create the tests, for economic reasons and for reasons of interest, they want students to use the mobile phone with an App that does not even have an editor to write equations or complex formulas.

Sorry for my absence, but I'm going to the bathroom.

@mickep UTN28 would have you write b/c (@Sebastiano)

@DavidCarlisle Even with the b over the c?

@mickep yes but UTN28 is pretty much "MSWord linear format" let me dig out a link section 2.1 of unicode.org/notes/tn28/UTN28-PlainTextMath-v3.1.pdf

@DavidCarlisle I found one, thank you. Indeed that one. Well, one learns something new every day...

@DavidCarlisle Hi David. I was in the bathroom.

@Sebastiano we didn't need to know that (and you told us twice:-)

@DavidCarlisle I'm sorry, I thought that you didn't read it. Didn't I understand the message of b over the c of @mickep?

@DavidCarlisle For your opinion Chrome extension that I have finded here golopot.github.io/tex-to-unicode TeX to Unicode is useful or exist another better than to it?

@Sebastiano read the document at the link above, but really it is no different to latex, it is a plain tex encoding of mathematics that is possibly only implemented by Word. converting latex to unicode is not a well defined problem as latex is unicode.

@DavidCarlisle I was reading :-)

@Sebastiano the chrome extension looks to be doing simple text replacement of \alpha to α you could do that in any text editor, emacs has a mode that does that by default or you could use perl or python or sed or anything that can do string replacements.

@DavidCarlisle I would like to find an optimal solution, among the time available, a better rendering of the formulas, but if it does not exist I will continue to write my test in LaTeX since 2002, when I have knew this wonderful language.

There are many Italian sites that create virtual classes with apps that use MathJaX that perform the same function as this modest App and I should waste time with the management of my school. I personally will continue my work with dignity and I am not interested in any kind of agreement between my manager and this company.

@Sebastiano you need to say what the problem is before you can ask for a solution. latex is already plain Unicode text so there is no encoding needed, you can use either α or \alpha to get an alpha in latex so even if you make that translation the resulting file is still latex, if you have a system of aligned equations, then you will always need some sort of markup, whether that is latex or UTN28 "plain text mathematics" (which as I say is basically microsoft word linear format)

@Sebastiano I do not understand that comment at all, which company?

@DavidCarlisle I'll forward you my warmest regards and hope to sleep tonight. Here it is not normal in Sicily that at this time we are about 25 degrees. At 19 local time we were about 30 degrees. Tomorrow I go to sea with the fish.

@DavidCarlisle siverapp.com/register/index

Siverapp is the app reserved for teachers and their students. Siverapp is a fast, simple and intuitive learning assessment system.

@Sebastiano and it uses mathjax?

@DavidCarlisle No :-( my "expert" colleagues insert images with medcapture, a program that is within the system, of formulas created with equation editors and images of very low quality

@DavidCarlisle The company is: medilink.it/?Language=EN and siverapp.com/Account/Login?ReturnUrl=%2f

@DavidCarlisle Look here app-iebook.scuola.zanichelli.it

Or in this link archivioscienze.scuola.zanichelli.it/esperto-matematica/2013/06/…

Zanichelli company use MathJax: archivioscienze.scuola.zanichelli.it/esperto-matematica/2010/11/…

Good night David and thank you very much always.

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright I get a failure in the hyperref tests that I don't understand. The build/test folder contains a picture.png, but the test includes a picture from the original testfiles folder: ho-tex-hyperref/test/picture.pdf Why does it find it??

@UlrikeFischer Which test?

@UlrikeFischer Pleased to see PDF-based testing is useful

@JosephWright test1 with pdftex and luatex (there are more, but understanding the one would probably solve the others too)

@UlrikeFischer Right, looking now

@JosephWright actually I'm dump. test is not the test folder, that's testfiles, but where is test from ?

@JosephWright I deleted this extra test folder and it works again. But why did l3build use the ho-tex-hyperref/test folder?

@UlrikeFischer I'm just wondering the same

@JosephWright I recreated the folder and added only picture.pdf and it is again in the search path.

@UlrikeFischer is that new (you could try backing out the changes i made to build.lua to start getting l3build ctan working.)

@DavidCarlisle I think we can blame @JosephWright. it is the new texmfdir setting: if the folder doesn't contain a folder texmf, texinputs ends with /otherGit/ho-tex-hyperref// and so everything is in the search path.

@DavidCarlisle ;-).

@JosephWright I see my documentation of the move missed the important point:-)

@DavidCarlisle I'm not sure where this "test" folder is from. Do you think one could delete it?

@DavidCarlisle ?

Oh I just saw the commit ;-)

@UlrikeFischer I was going to ask you, they are Heiko's original tests I think, I was going to stop them from going to ctan at least, I suppose any useful tests should be converted to l3build (but perhaps you did that already)

@UlrikeFischer actually they are older than that I just looked at test/test1.tex and recognise Sebastian's style

@DavidCarlisle imho I converted everyone that made sense. E.g. test1 has a companion in testfiles. For now added an empty texmf-folder and now the test pass. (But probably it needs a content for git??)

@UlrikeFischer I don't think they are tests in the sense of l3build with testable results, more just example documents used right at the beginning just as a sanity check that linking was happening.

@DavidCarlisle there are certainly better tests. But at least one sees if something drastic changes (like wrong graphic found ;-)).

@UlrikeFischer so make them all into l3build pdf tests? (and then delete the makefile etc)?

@DavidCarlisle ? I made them all in l3build tests long ago. Look in the testfiles folder.

@UlrikeFischer oh sorry I thought the ones in test were remaining ones that had not been converted I see not the case:-). Any converted ones can go, I agree.

@DavidCarlisle I'm leaving them for now - it is a bit late. I added a texmf folder to get the tests pass.

@UlrikeFischer thanks, I'll look again tomorrow.

@DavidCarlisle perhaps I have some time tomorrow to look at #102, but beside this it can imho be sent to ctan unless you have something.