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1:17 AM
pings @nitsua60
oddly, minotaurs seem to be one of the few official races in D&D 5e that don't have an Age section under their traits
both the book and the D&D Beyond version are missing it
1:35 AM
hello @user522257 welcome to the rpg lair!
@V2Blast Interesting because it is in the UA - Waterborne Adventures. - "Age. Minotaurs enter adulthood at around the age of 17 and can live up to 150 years."
hey there @user522257, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)
@linksassin good find. though oddly not in the Centaurs and Minotaurs UA: media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA-Centaur.pdf
@V2Blast Presumably that was the version that got taken forward to print and that's how it got left out.
Weird though because Centaur's have an age traits in the same UA.
2:05 AM
yeah, probably just an oversight
2:19 AM
@BESW I want "My Steel Neko" to be real so I can watch it.
2:38 AM
@Ash it's definitely got potential as a name
2:53 AM
@Ash Good news, for certain values of good! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Purpose_Cultural_Cat_Girl_Nuku_Nuku
Lol I figured something like that existed, but it doesn't have the title
A shame really XD though that title is also great
3:33 AM
@Glazius hahaha of course this exists
There was no way this wasn't somehow a thing
3:58 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, pattern-matching email in answer (434): How are resources recovered during a long rest that was interrupted? by Ruth balle on rpg.SE
@V2Blast I do see how that question was not a dupe sadly moments after I closed it. Misread the letters.
@Rubiksmoose Haha, no worries. Took me a few reads to understand it myself :P
Good call on the reopen. :)
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, pattern-matching email in answer, +1 more (504): My players are using Create Memories to rob everyone blind by Ruth balle on rpg.SE
2 hours later…
6:01 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected (160): Tentacles to arms? by roblox prisonlife on rpg.SE
6:26 AM
Q: If an enemy monster charms one PC and tells them to attack a second PC, and then the second PC charms the monster, what happens?

Carl BozemanConsider the following example: Character A, Character B, and Character C are in one room. Character A is an eladrin (MToF p. 62) of 3rd level or higher. C is a succubus. Characters A and B are allied. C is a foe. First, C charms B (using the succubus' Charm action), and tells B to attack A. Th...

6:59 AM
I know that DFA's Mantles are HOT in the #Fate RPG world but have you seen Roles in Shadows of the Century? Just as flavorful without all the fuss of writing/balancing conditions. Stunt lists FTW.
Today's fun fact: armour for whales weighs TWICE as much as armour for humans!
@Miniman I also enjoy that the barding rules don't account for size of creature
@Someone_Evil I'm looking forward to seeing the answers to this one. Should be good.
Somehow that armour of mammoth and a mastif have the same cost and weight. Which is dumb.
oh for a second I was like "nuh uh" but then I realized this is some game rule stuff
7:13 AM
Honestly the whole "animal companion, mount, barding" part of 5e feels like an afterthought.
None of the rules work that well or make much sense
@linksassin Especially the animal companion, mount, and barding rules? :P
But yeah. Same as underwater - there's a lot of stuff that feels like someone threw it in without spending any real time on it.
@Miniman In the current context, just those rules. Though there are certainly other that fall into that category
It looks like somebody just hastily and ruthlessly cut the chaff out of the 3.5 barding rules, but maybe cut a bit too much.
7:23 AM
Oh, wow. So they literally took the entry in the table for Large nonhumanoid and called it a day. That's a really cool find.
@BESW ouch, jeez
I hope that isn't what they did XD
Also, I think you just wrote a pretty solid answer, if you wanted the points.
I haven't studied 5e much, but almost every time in chat somebody goes "Gosh, these rules are weirdly deficient," I can find a ridiculously overdeveloped 3.5 subsystem which 5e has sawed out part of but hasn't filed off the edges and fitted it neatly into the new edition.
@BESW Yup. That's 5e in a nutshell. Fix the stuff you use all the time, steal and bandaid the rest and hope no one would notice.
@BESW having only looked at a little of it unfortunately that is often what it feels like
7:30 AM
@Miniman Who, me? "It's 3.5 but worse" isn't an answer to "what is the most effective way to accomplish it?"
and also the mutilated ghost of 4e sometimes
yeah, 4e seems like it's more haunting some of the design principles.
Which is interesting; the text of 5e is a deliberate throwback to pre-4e.
4e text has a quality distinct from other editions and they don't copy-paste that into 5e.
no they don't
but as I have mentioned before, they have taken at least a couple mechanics from 4e that just don't fit into 5e the same way
I mean don't get me wrong, I do actually like HD healing in 5e better than 3.5's natural healing
but,... because I played 4e I can see how much more it could have actually been,... tied into other mechanics instead of just being a thing that's nicer than a thing 3.5 had
@BESW Well, no. "Here's where 5e got those numbers if you want some more numbers" is one, though.
@trogdor It certainly does feel like a mechanic missing a system. But slightly less so that 3.5 or PF. My DM and I have toyed with homebrew uses for them a few times but never come up with anything we liked.
7:34 AM
well, making a consistent ruleset wasn't a design goal for 5e.
@Carcer Well, it was.
@linksassin yeah I don't know if you played 4e, but I have mentioned here before how the HD healing type thing was actually touching several mechanics
@trogdor I haven't played it. I know it was used for more things but don't know anyone with the rules to look it up for what it was used for.
ah ok
so it was replenished by daily rests, 5e has that
but that's where it ends
there were also powers that used them, and ones that didn't, that also came back either from daily rests (or short rests)
oh also you could spend them during short rests which 5e also has I forgot that part
but you could spend those powers that used them during those too
and you got racial bonuses depending on race that interacted with how much they healed, or possibly how many you had
and defender classes I believe generally had more
and there were feats (which 5e seems to disincentivise as a mechanic which also irks me honestly) that could give you more of them or make them heal for more or even let you use yours for other people's healing
@trogdor Verily. Defender gameplay had actually neat mechanics in 4e. in 5e, it's supposed to just emerge, but it doesn't really pan out as well.
7:45 AM
@Miniman I'll just leave this here.
@kviiri yeah in 5e as a paladin I basically just get close to enemies and threaten them with OA's
or block them from moving past me if I can
> A set of rules that unites all the previous editions, and the players of those editions. [...] A system that allows players to use much of their existing content, regardless of the edition. [...] Imagine that the game offered you modular, optional add-ons that allow you to create the character you want to play while letting the Dungeon Master create the game he or she wants to run.
sounds a bit Peter Monteneux to me
I suspect that stuff like barding being sloppily copied from 3.5 is an artifact of those original design goals, and the stuff they didn't care about didn't get tightened up later when they realized they'd overreached.
oh, most of those comments are from Mearls
7:53 AM
The official WotC statement was "a universal rules system that takes from the best of every edition," so I don't think we can attribute it to one guy running off at the mouth independently.
I didn't meant to imply that
but I was trying to pun on monte cook/molyneux
it works
[shrug] I'm sure somebody here gets the reference.
I get the Molyneux part
Peter Molyneux is infamous for making grand claims about the features of games he is developing which then fail to materialise
the features, not the games. The games exist.
he's made a lot of grand promises for games that didn't turn out the way he promised
7:58 AM
sounds like my RPG campaigns
I'm impressed that 5e managed to out-do 4e in terms of grandiose opening goals.
4e was supposed to get a dedicated online service that was basically Roll20 but with 3D dungeons for online FP/OTS perspective play.
Oh yeah
had they heard of Neverwinter Nights
They wanted.... that, but with GM control.
Then 5e came along like "unite the factions! The new edition will be a universal connector for all previous editions! Pathfinder apostates will return to the fold! players and GMs can all individually choose which variants to use! ALL WILL LOVE D&D NEXT AND DESPAIR."
ah the dark times whispered of in the prophesy, those times are now
sorry I couldn't help myself on that one
8:09 AM
user image
that is perfect
dang. I have been restrained by my cat
That's a buff cat
And what we got was... a janky "it's not broke if we tell the GM to fix it" edition that sheepishly cribs from 4e for the best bits, and blatantly pads itself out with copy-paste from other editions.
I don't want to sound mean but that isn't too far from what it looks like to me
8:13 AM
Though I'm still convinced I'd probably like it better than 3.5.
I think you would
But that's not much of an endorsement
No, that's a bar an arthritic dachshund could hurdle.
is the bar below ground level?
No: I would rather play D&D 3.5 with certain people than not play with those people at all.
I still am enjoying 5e
But I don't really want to play it past the campaign we have going atm
8:21 AM
@Carcer Given the choice, I wouldn't play any edition of D&D ever again. But there are games I wouldn't play under any circumstances, while I have yet to run into an edition of D&D I can say that about.
To be clear: I don't regret or begrudge my time spent playing D&D with my friends. We had fun and that doesn't get retroactively changed when my opinion about the franchise changes. And I absolutely believe that many people today derive joy from D&D and I'm glad it gives them joy.
For myself I've found ways for RPGs to give me more joy, more easily, with fewer undesired side effects and more desired side effects, without D&D--regardless of edition or playstyle.
and I don't want anyone who enjoys 5e more than I do (which isn't as much as I enjoy many other systems but is some amount) to think I think they shouldn't be allowed or expected to like it
I just don't derive the enjoyment of it so much that I want to prolong it past the campaign of it I am currently in
8:38 AM
I stand by my opinions of 5e as a haphazard unhappy compromise on overweening ambitions until I'm convinced otherwise, but a thing being flawed does not, itself, make it bad to find joy in the thing. Otherwise we'd all be completely miserable.
Yeah fair
1 hour later…
10:05 AM
Oh, also: I suspect Wizards had to pitch amazingly overambitious concepts to Hasbro in order to compete for funding for new editions alongside Hasbro's other, less niche properties.
So I'm not giving the devs guff for not fulfilling their pitches on either 4e or 5e.
And I should include my usual observation that if you want a d20-leaning mashup of 3.5 and 4e, 13th Age is probably a better choice than 5e.
I will also continue my policy of endorsing 13th Age XD
you should try it if you have a group ready to try relatively new things
I should try it
it's pretty cool
If I ever must play again in a D&D-like setting with D&D-like mechanics, 13th Age will be my first choice.
I would prefer 4e personally but 13th Age is an extremely close second
and honestly 13th Age seems like it would be easier to manage
10:29 AM
If the old 4e resources were still available I'd be a bit more inclined to consider it an option.
Any idea what means HR in the context of an RPG? "Looking at Wish, it looks like I'm going to need to HR that spell as well."
@EnderLook Humanoid Resources?
joke aside, what is your actual context?
"I'd set the casting time at least to 1 minute, if not 10. I'd also require this to be cast in a place that has been sanctified to the PCs god. I'd also add the penalty of reducing your Con to 5 until a long rest.

Looking at Wish, it looks like I'm going to need to HR that spell as well."

It's a commment made to a wish-like spell I published in reddit as a cleric's wish variant: miracle.

@EnderLook with that context it almost certainly means "houserule"
@Carcer ahh, that can be possible. Thanks
10:40 AM
That's what I'd guess.
Hit Rice
(no, seriously probably house rules)
Heatedly Revile.
Half-arsedly Review
Tangentially related to TTRPGs, I spent some hours last weekend playing the videogame classic: Angband
aka the game I occasionally mock with comments like
Jan 10 at 18:04, by kviiri
I think Angband is terrible, in its own, adorable way. I love to hate it, but I also love it quite a bit.
Quite peculiarly it's taken steps in its later developments that are clearly influenced by actual design sense --- it still retains its grind-heavy gameplay but it's considerably more focused on the more fun parts of that grind
They've dropped the stat of Charisma, which was all but useless anyway. Under the default settings, shops no longer buy items, reducing the tedium of dungeon sweeps (you get bigger money drops instead)
11:00 AM
@BESW yeah that is a big blow to the game
11:52 AM
@kviiri ye oldie Ultima Online times, when you would go as far as selling killed npc brigands shoes to get some more coins...
@Derpy Angband at least has a really limited inventory size, so you're essentially forced to only bring only good stuff to sell. Not non-magical junk
Shops not buying items was earlier familiar to me from Crawl, where I found it initially off-putting but later came to appreciate
@kviiri to be fair, Ultima was pretty open in regards to what you could do... so it isn't like you HAD to get the shoes, it was just "want to buy house (with house == CASTLE most of the times)" syndrome
@Derpy I can't say I know Ultima because I don't, but my SO has the thing where she just can't bring herself to use fast travel in games where it costs any money (eg. Elder Scrolls: Morrowind)
Despite the fact that fast travel is so cheap, you make the money back easily in the time saved
I don't think Morrowind is even a game where you really need the money for anything
@kviiri the original Ultima Online - the one you would play on the official servers had a no-class system.
You just had skills - and a skill cap
since every skill could go up to 100 (technically, 120, but that is another story) you was just limited by the fact you could just have 700 allocated points in total.
So, even if some activities were far more profitable then others, the gameplay wasn't broken because technically you had access to every potential build
That.... was usually the first game balance the unofficial servers utterly broke by attempting to force the players in a more traditional class-based gameplay.
12:16 PM
Q: Long rests can be interrupted for up to 1 hour without having to restart the rest; is this limit per-rest or per-interruption?

ZomaI just read this question about long rests being regularly interrupted and this one about how resources are recovered at the end of an interrupted long rest, and another question came to me. Is the 1-hour limit for an interruption for a long rest the total limit of all interruptions, or is it th...

Apparently there's a Pedagogy of the Oppressed as well as a Theatre!
12:44 PM
@kviiri Spellmaking and enchanting.
@Miniman Well ok, that's true
Although in different orders of magnitude than you "lose" to fast travel
It's been ages since I last played Morrowind; the awful level-up system killed the joy of the game for me
I do have some fond memories of the game though... including this one time when I was trying to explain my little brother why, when the weird bug where the city of Vivec would disappear happened, you could still enter the inside parts of the city through doors and explore it as if nothing was wrong
Well good Monday to you all!
Great monday to me. Getting badges on closed questions with a single upvote.
1:00 PM
@GcL just a special Monday morning gift from RPG.se to you :)
oh hey I remember that question.
how dare someone view it and not vote on my excellent answer! /s
How's everyone else doing?
well enough
@Rubiksmoose Coffee just kicked in, brain finally working.
@Rubiksmoose To be fair, by the time they get to the end of that answer they have read almost a short novel (assuming they read both answers)
@Someone_Evil That's the style some people like to produce and others like to read.
1:07 PM
@Someone_Evil it's possible that it just successfully put the person to sleep!
@KorvinStarmast huzzah for caffeine!
@goodguy5 well it is Monday, so the bar isn't that high is it?
@GcL (I still think that question could have been salvaged, maybe in a new question, but that is neither here nor there)
aunt-tier supervisor seems miffed about me only working on two of the three tickets she assigned to me.

We went to a wedding on Saturday that started at 6:30, for some ungodly reason. The bride actually initially said "no children". So I was like "Well, I'll stay home with the baby, if you want." But then she said, "well, okay. your baby can come for the ceremony and cocktail hour." Which means we both had to go, but that we couldn't stay for dinner, because baby.

And just a generally frustrating night last night and this morning.
@Rubiksmoose I think it's a fine question. I got a satisfactory answer, and apparently people get directed to it or search for it a lot.
@goodguy5 Wow, usually if you muster up the courage to ban babies from your wedding, you stick to your guns.
@GcL I think it is a good question for sure!
1:14 PM
It's entertaining to me that it's closed.
I can't remember, but IIRC there was a lot of confusion about what was being asked and major edits to the question?
which question?
The only wedding I went to with a "no babies" policy was of one of a Laestadian congregation --- they typically have large families so it was a practical necessity.
Q: Can Sneak Attack deal magical damage?

GcLPremise Sneak Attack, like Divine Smite, is not weapon damage according to the ruling for the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style. Consider a weapon such as the Sun Blade that is finesse and can be used two-handed. The Sneak Attack damage is not applicable for the GWF re-rolls, because the dam...

1:17 PM
Laestadian weddings don't have dancing, alcohol, or toasting (even with non-alcoholic drinks) either. It was quite fun regardless (or because?) of these restrictions.
the toasting restriction is weird to me, actually.
@GcL well I don't see anything about it that is problematic now at the very least so I'm throwing a reopen vote on it.
@Rubiksmoose I don't recall. I've wondered about the consistency between the internal models of the users that most vote to close questions and what the determining parameters actually are.... but I'm not really going to write any code to take any serious nlp analysis on it.... so I just wonder and am happy with that.
@Someone_Evil Glad that you caught my boo boo there, thanks! :) Also, loved the whale barding answer, hope you don't mind the typo edits.
@GcL that would be an interesting and incredibly complex problem to work out I think. We humans are lots of things, but consistent and logical is not always among them.
1:27 PM
@KorvinStarmast No problem. Just glad to see them fixed and to see that V2 isn't doing all of the heavy lifting
@goodguy5 I asked the groom about it while washing up --- he's quite new to the scene but apparently it's both that it's seen as an undue symbol of praise for someone who's not God and also lip service to drinking culture they don't approve
@Rubiksmoose Consistency and logic are not requirements for ... well just about anything we do. When they are, they're low on the priority list.
I assumed as much for the "undue" symbol of praise. But it seems like.... the act of being there is celebrating and praising the two. A toast and speech doesn't seem ... whatever. not my chair.
@goodguy5 Speeches are fine
But no raising of glasses (which I take is integral for toasting)
then how do you call attention to the speech? lol
1:30 PM
@goodguy5 Airhorn?
note to self: bring airhorn to the next wedding I go to for people I want to not like me anymore.
@kviiri My nieces have taken to cheersing and toasting with whatever is at hand... forks... spoons... leg of chicken. Turns out drinking vessels are not a hard requirement.
@goodguy5 bonus bring airhorn and give to your baby!
@Rubiksmoose nonononono. I'm trying to punish them, not myself.
1:33 PM
@goodguy5 No children is a totally reasonable request. Staying home with the baby is basically your job now... same with going home because your toddler is having a bad day and spreading audible misery.
On the upside... baby won't judge your work/art/opinions for at least a half dozen years.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
... well... at least two
@GcL We used to raise a glass and toast with cups of coffee on one of the ships I was on in the Navy. (American Navy is a dry Navy ... may Josephus Daniels rot in the deepest of Hells while Demagorgon smacks him about with tentacles ... )
@KorvinStarmast Sure... dry until they get on land. I've got navy friends and family. I would not use dry to describe them most of the time.
1:35 PM
@KorvinStarmast There's a certain irony to the term "dry navy" that I find very humorous.
"No children" is certainly a reasonable request. That's fine. Kind of a weird flex since the groom has a 12-year old, but w/e.
I would have been happy to stay home with the baby.
It was just weird to be like "no kids.... well, I guess you can bring your baby, specifically, for the first 90 minutes. but that means no dinner for you, suckah"
oh! I changed my baby in the wild for the first time yesterday, that was neat.
@GcL Dry as compared to our British, Danish, Dutch, German, etc navies who have spirits on board ship. All navies "get wet" once ashore. A Royal Navy officer once closed out our golf match with "and now, we get wet ..." as an invitation for a drink afterwards.
@goodguy5 Yeah... I'd just leave it at no children under ... <arbitrary age at which you convince yourself they can be quiet> ... maybe 20
@KorvinStarmast Yeah, they've got their own vernacular for that sort of stuff. All of my professions have been rather mundane about that and just "go get drinks/drunk"
@GcL The flower girl (3 years?) and her (<1year) sister were also there. Like I said. Just weird.
@goodguy5 imagines you changing the baby in a forest.
1:38 PM
(In Daniels' defense, he was the first SecNav to let women into the Navy ... so he's got that goig for him)
@goodguy5 There's a tricky wicket. Many times the flower girls and ring bearer are exempt on account of the value they add to the wedding photos and the collective "aww"
@Rubiksmoose Nah, my wife's aunt's house. Super chill environment.
@Rubiksmoose I imagined this too :p
@Rubiksmoose I genuinely thought that was what he meant...
> "haphazard unhappy compromise on overweening ambitions..."
1:40 PM
@Someone_Evil New vote. Lets vote that he actually changed the baby in a forest. All in favor?
New site motto? [nervous grin?]
Again, I'm not trying to argue with her "no kids" policy. It was just a bit of a bother. Get everyone all dressed up and drive out to a wedding where we can't eat at.

And we felt like we we were supposed to bring the baby and both of us because "She'd made an exception for us".

Which, arguably, we should have ignored.
but it was nice to see the family.
@nitsua60 hah!
(To be fair, "haphazard unhappy compromise on overweening ambitions" does a decent job of encapsulating many of my life choices so far. But it's lead to general happiness, so I'm not likely to change my approach too soon.)
@goodguy5 Definitely ignore. I feel like an exception made is a trap. Like when a cat rolls over to show you it's belly and winks, "sure I won't maul you... you're special."
1:42 PM
@nitsua60 Gratuitous and stubborn D&D hating seems to be against our Be Nice theme ...
But, both of my cats like belly scritches
@KorvinStarmast Nobody can hate on a thing like the people that love it.
@KorvinStarmast eh..... seems on brand
@GcL I guess that familiarity breeds contempt.
@goodguy5 Sure... so do mine. But many like them as an opportunity to rend flesh. So you know... watch out for that.
1:43 PM
I was just thinking about the recent meta on the dice question being open or closed. It's clearly not a big deal and so I hope nobody's nose is out of joint on it, but "haphazard compromises on overweening ambitions" seems to capture the spirit.
But maybe that's just my Monday morning talking?
@KorvinStarmast I think doing that is illegal in at least 43 states under incest laws.
@GcL Which opens the question on why the other 7 states have not caught up yet, I suppose.
@nitsua60 I'm still having a hard time parsing that. Very dense.
@GcL I tend to be pretty dense on Monday mornings =)
@KorvinStarmast Rule 34? They like pi equal to 3? Stable genetic pools just aren't as important as "dat ass?"
@nitsua60 So you're like a rich cake?!
1:45 PM
@nitsua60 Had we begun on time Saturday, I think we'd have finished ... gaah, I hate RL getting in the way of a good game.
@KorvinStarmast Yeah, sorry. I crashed hard the last 20 minutes or so, then looked at the clock and realized why. (cc: @V2Blast @Shalvenay)
@GcL Perhaps a desire not to build more prisons. If one keeps making new laws, one increases the number of criminals.
@GcL I immediately thought of the dense but delicious applesauce walnut cake I currently have on my counter this morning! So density isn't always bad!
@nitsua60 Uh, we are used to your pumpkin time being about midnight your time, so that was about on time / expectation for me. I had spent all day in the front and back yard doing yard work ... which makes me appreciate my son's previous five years of labor a bit more. :)
@Ash Yeah. I'm going with @nitsua60 is a rich cake.
1:47 PM
@nitsua60 I find my ambitions to be mostly "get more sleep" on Monday mornings lol
@GcL At least he's not a big dram doughnut with creme (Monty Python Reference ...)
@GcL I think this is the correct sentiment, as well.
@KorvinStarmast Sure. If you made incest illegal in those 7 states, who would be left to run them? /S
@Rubiksmoose My ambition is to play more Hearthstone before I have to leave for work. I can't stop waking up at 5:00 due to the long years of being on the early shift, so now I make a virture of necessity.
@Rubiksmoose You could use the "life hack" of getting more sleep on Sunday night! /S
1:50 PM
@GcL looks like it's reopened now ...
@GcL [mind blown]
@GcL What, and miss Game of Thrones? Pshaw!
@KorvinStarmast actually that was the exact reason for lack of sleep last night lol
@Rubiksmoose Episode 3 disappointed me, in terms of "coulda be epic" but was instead "disjointed" though it did in some ways capture the chaos of battle. Ep 4 got the plot moving, but the beginning was IMO too slow. Was glad to see that some more characters were allowed to die. (Gotta stay consistent ...)
@KorvinStarmast I'd agree on both points.
1:53 PM
@Rubiksmoose Edit I felt bad for Brienne, though, in that scene near the end.
agreed. I'm not sure if we should dig in too specifically though in case there are those who are spoiler-wary here.
But yeah I definitely have Thoughts about some of that stuff lol
@Rubiksmoose It's the same spoiler for every episode, book, and chapter: "Some character you were led to care about dies." The last book is a detailed description of an empty continent because RR Martin killed every character.
@GcL That saves him from writing an 8th book after the 6th and 7th (not yet finished) are completed some time in the 2030's ... :p
2:45 PM
Little discussion prompt: my group has, oftentimes, expressed the desire to play an "Evil campaign" in DnD or similar system --- one where the PCs are villains or henchmen of such. However, these suggestions have usually been followed with the pessimistic observations that it might encourage lolrandom violence or inter-party backstabbings for the evulzz. Has anyone run an Evil campaign and how did it turn out?
(Note: per the choice of system and conspicuous capitalization of Evil, I mean specifically villainous PCs through the usual DnD lens --- blatant disregard for the laws of war against goblins doesn't count)
@kviiri Do they count as evil if all the PCs refuse to use the fantasy Oxford comma?
Another common concern is it'd be "just good guys in reverse" without any really distinguishing feel
@Rubiksmoose I must confess my knowledge on that is fairly limited --- ESL perks include that improper comma use is seldom the main point of contention in my writing.
@kviiri When you say "good guys in reverse" do you mean something like Anti-Hero?
@kviiri I ran one kind of adjacent to this. It wasn't an Evil Campaign in that everyone was forced to be evil. But I gave players the option and even encouraged them to try it out since they were part of a corrupt organization and I could easily justify their presence in the story. However, it turned out that despite several of the players choosing at the beginning to be evil, they actually found themselves falling back on acting good /neutral despite themselves.
It might have been some unintentional pressure from the story, or habit, or just reading the table, but nobody ended up being more than slightly evil in the end.
I did also put them in a world where evil still had consequences (occasionally stiff ones) so maybe there was too much risk involved for the Players' taste. Though it was a very short adventure (and advertised as such).
@Someone_Evil I mean like, instead of being a hero who kills Evil monsters to please a Good questmadter, you play a hero who kills Good monsters to please an Evil questmaster
2:55 PM
I think broadly Evil in this context is gonna mean "Motivated and willing to do anything(/much) towards that end". This is going to be hard for a lot of players because it will put a lot more burden of driving the plot on them (my players certainly have a problem with this), and they need to have their characters do thing they aren't comfortable with.
@kviiri You could argue that acting out a quest given is a wholly neutral act. Choosing to not do that quest because someone would be hurt would be what makes you Good.
@Someone_Evil Evil has a more specific meaning than that in the DnD sense
I guess that's a part of the issue; our perspective of what's evil includes the whole "easy way to victory" aspect that DnD Evil only pays lip service to.
So in order to work well, the evil campaign'd have to reconcile and include both senses of evil, while still feeling like DnD.
I played 1 (one) evil d20 Modern game when I was 15 or something. We had one session of being unreasonably violent to everything and got bored
this looks like an alignment argument!
[gets out his notes]
3:15 PM
@KorvinStarmast He's not going to finish it anyway. My bet is he dies and Brandon Sanderson finishes the series.
@Someone_Evil I find crafting stories that illustrated how alignment is dependent entirely on perspective. The act that was perceived as evil can be discovered to be good and visa versa. I think those are more interesting to be a part of and make for way more interesting decisions later on.
E.g. two opposing very powerful paladins of conquest that are both lawful good and diametrically opposed.
Put a low level party on that border where they get to see the plight of the populations on both sides and not directly involved in the conflict... and they eventually get powerful enough to intervene directly, but the choices are informed not by some absolute good/evil spectrum, but by what is good or evil for the characters and situations involved.
I was more trying to get at what it would mean to play an 'Evil Campaign' than what Evil can mean, both in D&D and in broader morality. Personally I think alignment is insufficiently nuanced to be useful and don't really like it.
@Someone_Evil Most of my players agree that they end up playing an "evil campaign" even though they've accomplished the ultimate good objective for each campaign so far.
E.g. saving the city. saving the world. preventing one of the demon lords from waking up and ruining coffee for everyone for all time.
And what elements are making it 'evil' to them?
3:30 PM
@Someone_Evil That was what I found interesting to me as well. Why did their perspective on what they did and the choices made lead them to determine they were playing an evil party upon reflection?
Advancing their own agendas and seeing the ripple effects of the costs to others and NPCs was a reoccurring theme.
In my experience my players are very strict about acting in the interest of their own group, with a slight bias towards doing nice things. This would put them between LN and LG, but they all insist to put NG, CG, or CN on their sheets.
@Someone_Evil Sure sure... but they find out the acts they initially viewed as good had repercussions they played out while they were away in dungeon. They might eventually get to questioning if they were good or not.
Whether the morality of an act should be judged on its intent or its consequences is a question I don't feel qualified to give an answer to.
E.g. killing an evil lord who was deeply invested in maintaining a stable economic situation for the city he lived in. Sure he uses necromancy and is really unpleasant to interlopers... but killing him basically sunk the town because there wasn't a better way of handling interlopers. They came in stripped the place of natural resources and drove inflation way up.
@Someone_Evil I don't either, but I do find it interesting and entertaining to help make stories where the players end up dealing with that question.
3:47 PM
@GcL It certainly can be. I don't think it is what players (think they) are looking for when they want to play an 'Evil Campaign'.
@Someone_Evil Sure, but you can flip that around as well. If they're going out of their way to be murder hobos and generally a-holes to everyone they can, that could be a rallying cry and common enemy for groups that would otherwise be at each other throats. Hey, given how hard players are to defeat, it could necessitate a deep and lasting collaboration and sharing of resources.
Alternatively, if they're just playing a do what we want party, then that can play out for good and bad regardless of the initial rationale. Especially if the players find reasons to re-visit the same locations and see the NPCs over time.
May I ask a game recommendation question?
@A.B. Sure. You're best bet is to summon BESW. He's either played or heard of all of the games.
@GcL I feel like you are finding the starting point/background for the next campaign once you realize Evil wasn't that fun/lasting (or after you TPK of course)
@Someone_Evil I keep their characters around. They become NPCs or BBEGs in the subsequent ones.
I usually don't run stories beyond L14.
3:56 PM
@A.B. sure you can!
and we'll do our best to answer :)
@Rubiksmoose Who is "we" ?
@A.B. sure, here in chat.
Well, long shot, but I'm looking for a fairly quick to pick up game I could try with my parents.
@GcL the royal we of course. The good citizens of chat.
From what I've seen there is rarely any such thing as a simple RPG, but... :-D
4:00 PM
@A.B. what kind of game are you looking for besides easy to learn? Genre? Level of drama/comedy? What do you think will interest your parents the most?
(Typing slowly) Other points: Preferably one that doesn't (or doesn't need to) revolve around killing things.
Do they have any previous RPG history?
In fact, funny thing, but neither have I.
Well that is very good to know!
I have FAILED to play RPGs over the Internet several times,
and learnt a lot about the rules of D&D and others in the process, (I like reading that kind of stuff anyway), but they always fell through at the last minute.
4:02 PM
I'm just gonna sound the @BESW bugle, so at least he can find it later
Thanks, I forgot.
Is there any way I can stop that "New feed items" thing popping up, it's really distracting?
@A.B. hmm so what kind of story do you think you want to tell here? Something dramatic, something funny? Something character-based?
Something really light and party game-y?
Well, that's the next thing I was going to say. I would very much like one that's actually a game. Where there are actually rules, I mean, rather than being totally free-form and all about what you
can make sound good. "Games" that rely entirely on Rule of Cool are very hard work for me. I'd like something you can actually... play?
Makes sense!
Excuse me, heart cry of someone who has been trying to play forum RPGs.
4:11 PM
You may want to look at FATE, though I'm not sure where it lands for you in terms being 'played'
I would like to get a sense of what kind of story you want though. Do you and your parents like superheros? Sci-fi? Fantasy? Romance?
From things said when I've been grumbling about said forum RPGs, I think my parents would feel the same to some extent. (If not, they can damn well GM it themselves X-D )
@Someone_Evil Fate sounds (to me) a bit heavier than maybe I would recommend here.
Though I could be reading it wrong
Well, let's see
@A.B. there's also this guy: prokopetz.tumblr.com, he does game recs
4:13 PM
(@Rubiksmoose : It's quite possible that I'M reading it wrong. I'm frequently wrong about what I would like, but I do my best.)
That is also understandable! Being that you have never run or played an RPG it is understandably hard for you to provide a detailed breakdown of what you need. Best thing to do is go with your gut a bit and lay down some guidelines and we'll try to give some ideas and see how things work.
@Rubiksmoose I expressed some doubts myself. It is certainly much lighter than D&D and has a resolution/allowance mechanic I like a lot. The game will hold up really well if you strip of some of the heavier mechanics (should your storytelling not need them).
Sorry to disappear, I was just trying to see if there was any way of squishing any of these animations and pop-up notifications, didn't find one.
@A.B. yeah sorry I don't think there is.
(none that I am aware of anyways
@Someone_Evil Indeed. I worry that it might be too much to learn what those parts are and to strip them out for someone who has never run one before though... there's always FAE but I haven't heard it is a great compromise for what it cuts out. (no experience though so I could be wrong)
@A.B. You can try this "astronauts try to pull off a bank robbery" RPG here.
4:21 PM
My impression is that FAE is generally has a better information:kilobytes_of_text ratio compared to Core, but may still be not obvious enough to pick up (and may be subtly relying on prior knowledge in a way I haven't noticed). I'm still uncomfortable with its Approaches though, I feel they detract from characterisation of who the PCs are and what they can do.
Right, genre-wise, I will happily read almost anything, including all of the above, especially adventure stories of whatever kind. Mum reads tons of detective stories (we all do in fact). They both like Narnia and Lord of the Rings; so do I. Romance sounds tricky to play a game as? unless really silly of course. We all like silly.
Roll for Shoes is something that I keep thinking about, but I wonder if that is too light. And it definitely lends itself more towards goofiness than seriuous storytelling.
@A.B. The bank robbery trope is a great touch point ... and no killing need happen.
@A.B. Ohh I wonder about Gumshoe/bubblegumshoe
BESW would definitely be able to speak to that one
[kicks self for not having played so many systems]
Just reading through links!
4:27 PM
@Rubiksmoose Is that the one where the kids solve neighborhood mysteries/crimes?
@GcL Yup! Bubblegumshoe is at least.
@A.B. I'll give you one anti-recommendation though: don't do D&D. D&D as a system is both on the heavier side and also very focused on combat and killing. While you can tell other stories with it, you have to fight the system to do so and that will be even harder for a new DM.
It's not a bad system on the whole if you want certain things, but it doesn't seem to be what you want/need.
@A.B. I know superheros weren't mentioned in there, but I can't help but recommend Masks if you are interested in playing a somewhat dramatic story about teenage superheros coming into their powers and dealing with their changes and emotions. Very easy, fun system with just a nice amount of crunch.
If you aren't interested in the theme though, leave it. You should make sure whatever you choose is of interest to everyone around the table.
@Rubiksmoose I've never considered the mouth feel of an RPG before, but I suppose it comes into play at some point :p
@Someone_Evil XD. You're just not getting the Full RPG Experience I guess.
4:46 PM
Hehe, I got completely distracted by Roll for Shoes, I am definitely going to print that and think about it.
Probably the astronaut one too. Storytelling is a thing I am not good at, I freeze, so I was doubtful, but that has so many kind of hooks/instructions and what not that it looks like it might be worth trying at least. Also, if anything can be silly enough to get me to un-freeze...
Thanks for th D&D tip, I was rather thinking that myself. Sheer bigliness of the thing.
@A.B. The starter set for D&D is decent at leading a new dungeon master through how to run and adventure, but as noted by Rubik, D&D itself (particularly at the beginning level) most often involves combat against monsters and other perilous foes. If that isn't the feel you want for an intro, Rubik's point is a solid one.
5:19 PM
@A.B. Hi and welcome o/
@KorvinStarmast I dropped to 3rd in my pool. I had Drogon, not Rhaegon, biting it.
5:50 PM
@Rubiksmoose you always recommend Masks :P maybe I should play it xD
@A.B. there should be a dismiss button on it for future reference
@DavidCoffron It was seriously the most fun I've had at the table on the whole. It sounds like my players largely like it as well. As long as you are wanting the teen superhero experience, I think you'll have a good time.
It's not it being there that bothers me, it's new ones popping up when I least expect it and making me jump. In fact I've realised that it never disappears if you leave it so I
've left it, so it'll keep still.
@A.B. I'm going to say Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple in case nobody else mentions it lower in the conversation.
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