TRPG General Chat

12:01 AM

So yeah, I think a Rivers of London style magic system might be interesting in Fate because it'd help put focus on non-magical problem-solving because that's where your motivation and emotion can be helpful.

trogdor

So you want to encourage using some non magical problem solving within a setting where you can use magic

BESW

Magic is still super useful and can be very powerful, but it's also extremely limited so you spend a lot of time using other skills to set up situations where your magic will be useful... or working around situations where you're magically outclassed, by bringing in other resources and skills.

BESW

12:42 AM

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Tweeted by GrasswatchGames on April 29, 2019 at 12:06 AM

user15026

@BESW ooooh neat

Stackstuck

@BESW Magic made by putting small bits together is a very good type of magic.

I tried to read that series, but I think I've gotten lost.

Shalvenay

@Stackstuck seconded :)

BESW

@Stackstuck I like it a lot, but I can see where some people might find it less engaging.

It's part of my ongoing build of an urban speculative fiction setting for my own play, which also incorporates (among others) Skin Horse, InCryptid, Atomic Robo, Warehouse 13, and Monáe's Metropolis.

Commission of @j_belin’s Grave Cleric of Wee Jas, Grant! #DnD #dnd5e #dungeonsanddragons

Tweeted by sonybaloneyart on April 28, 2019 at 8:12 PM

Stackstuck

Oh, no, I mean literally lost.

trogdor

12:53 AM

@Stackstuck you are lost, the book is lost, or you lost your place in the book?

user15026

@BESW oooh thats some fun bits

V2Blast

1:08 AM

@BESW I am only actually personally familiar with Warehouse 13 from that list, and I approve

trogdor

Huh

I would have guessed that if anyone only knew one of those it would be Janelle Monae but I guess Warehouse 13 is second on the list for that

V2Blast

1:21 AM

Well, I know who she is. Haven't actually listened to her music

I've also heard of Atomic Robo from this very chat but never read the comic or played the RPG

I've watched the entirety of Warehouse 13 and moderate the subreddit :)

trogdor

Ahhh ok

I thought it was literally all you had heard of

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Yeah--it's codified in 1e, which means it was certainly being bandied about in Dragon at least at the beginning of the 80s, if not the 70s.

trogdor

But you meant it's the one you are very familiar with

V2Blast

yep

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah, I reviewed a 1e PHB myself. you about to talk on Discord btw?

trogdor

1:26 AM

Fair enough, really fair enough either way but now I understand what you meant

XD

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Nah, I'm heading to bed. Long weekend of duty. And what little time I wasn't on duty I squeezed in a quick 5-mile.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ah, catch you sometime this week upcoming then

nitsua60

Sounds good.

Stackstuck

@trogdor I'm lost in the series.

V2Blast

what series are we talking about?

trogdor

1:29 AM

@Stackstuck ah ok

I think I understand

MikeQ

@V2Blast The reversed fibonacci series

trogdor

@V2Blast Rivers of London

V2Blast

ah, now I see where it was mentioned

never heard of it before

trogdor

I'm not familiar with it but @BESW was talking about it just a little bit ago

And has told me a little about it before too

Stackstuck

There's no actually "what the heck is the reading order" thing.

trogdor

1:33 AM

Yeah that always gets me too

Chronology and order of reading are a big deal for me

Minus the dates part but with the same eye towards establishing in what order things happened or were intended to be observed

It does look like there is something of a reading order but if you don't have the graphic novels it might be confusing?

It's the first result when I googled "Rivers of London reading order"

In images instead of all

(which is often my first tactic to fix this exact kind of problem because I can see the cover art and the titles, and the results usually seem better)

I really like the way this is laid out too, I gotta say

BESW

1:51 AM

As much as Goodreads is an avatar for the cesspit that is modern literary consumer culture, it's got some well-curated reading order lists.

trogdor

Ah ok

That looks even better

If mostly because it has some that seem to be missing in the image one

BESW

I've read all the novels, some of the novellas/short stories, and the first graphic novel.

You can just read the novels and not be at all confused, which is nice.

trogdor

Seems fine

BESW

I like that, unlike in Dresden, there aren't all these super-powerful beings lurking around who know what's really going on and are keeping it all secret for shadowy reasons of their own.

No, the demigods and fae are just as clueless about the big picture as anybody else.

trogdor

Yeah power shouldn't mean you also know everything

BESW

1:59 AM

There's no overarching conspiracy because each person is lucky if they have a grasp of their OWN situation.

There's a point where Grant comments to a minor river that the River of London is suuuper mysterious about her powers, and the minor river is like "Between you and me, we just have no clue where our powers come from or what their extent might be. It just sort of happens and we don't want to poke it too hard."

trogdor

But Dresden Files also had other issues this probably avoids if you like it better

BESW

Yeah.

Like having characters whose parents actually matter, and women who aren't sexy lamps.

trogdor

Oh my God yeah that's the term

I was trying to dig that one out of my brain

BESW

Note to self: in future RPGs where we make nuanced characters, be sure to include a bit about "who raised you and what did you learn from them."

trogdor

Dresden files definitely wasn't written by a feminist paragon

It wasn't so bad at first, but that might just be because there wasn't all the built up instances of that particular trope

After reading,... However many I read there were suddenly more occurrences of that in the writing than I could shake a stick at

BESW

2:08 AM

Butcher genuinely tries to do better, but he fails more often than he doesn't.

trogdor

Good lord I read 14 of those books :/

BESW

By his genre's overall average standards, Butcher is probably above par in his depiction of women and people of color. But that's because his genre has so much that's completely thoughtless.

trogdor

Yeah, I can believe that

BESW

The first significant black character I can remember in Dresden Files (a series set in Chicago) is... a Russian immigrant.

trogdor

I just wish I noticed the problems with it before I read quite so many of them

BESW

2:12 AM

Saaaaame.

trogdor

@BESW wow

BESW

@trogdor See also: almost every series I read in high school.

trogdor

@BESW XD

Also same for the Sword of Truth books

BESW

There's so much else I could've been reading!

user15026

I just try to tell myself that at least I am reading that stuff now?

trogdor

2:14 AM

They had women in them that had amazing but also horrible magic powers, who also were treated a lot like sexy lamps

user15026

It doesn't fix it and sometimes I feel like I am running out of time for books

BESW

@Ash Yeah, and I suppose there's something to be said for really knowing just how great the stuff I'm reading now is.

user15026

This is true too

user15026

But sometimes I still get like "omg where were you before aaaa"

trogdor

@BESW Yeah that's also fair

@Ash sometimes they literally weren't written yet XD

Like an Unkindness of Ghosts

BESW

2:16 AM

@Ash Urrrgh I know right. In retrospect, getting almost all my speculative fiction second-hand from military families who were leaving island... explains a lot about what I wasn't reading.

trogdor

Definitely had not been written when I was in high school

BESW

Lots of Clarke and Asimov, no Octavia Butler.

user15026

@BESW most of my fantasy (well most books in general but especially those) came from Mennonite ran thrift stores.

user15026

@trogdor also this

trogdor

Oh but I forgot, in highschool I had to ,... Get creative about reading fantasy or scifi stuff

That probably would have been relegated to at home reading

The title alone would have scared those stupid $_@_$_'s

user15026

2:20 AM

I thought I hated romance novels for the loooongest time that weren't Nora Roberts but turns out I just like stuff that doesn't hit trad pub a whole lot

trogdor

And telling than there are no ghosts in it's sci find would have had hilariously dumb results

@Ash huh

user15026

Aka I like me some representation in my romances

trogdor

Yeah

Ok

user15026

@trogdor someday I will have the spoons to read that

trogdor

It definitely requires some

But it's the first book of fiction I've ever read with an autistic protagonist

And own voice and all that

I've since also read the Xandri Correlel series

I don't think it was written quite as well but the main character was great

I just wish the last two books didn't have so much point of view from her primary love interest

I wasn't reading the book for him :/

Shalvenay

2:31 AM

@trogdor yeah, I'm not sure if they'd have taken kindly to a book report on The Hunt For Red October either (one of the things I did a book report on back in school)

trogdor

@Shalvenay the school I went to probably wouldn't have had the same problems with that as they did with my Normal reading

Shalvenay

@trogdor interesting

(a lot of the other stuff I was reading, even back then, was technical nonfiction)

user15026

@trogdor I have read some romances that fall under that!

trogdor

@Shalvenay they were a Christian private school that had n overwhelming but ambiguous terror of basically the entire science fiction and fantasy spectrum

Shalvenay

@trogdor ah XP

trogdor

2:43 AM

So they told me to stop bringing "those books" to school

So at some point I started taking books from opposing viewpoint christain sects that they never bothered to check

Just to give them an invisible middle finger and have dumb popcorn reading

user15026

That's one way to solve the problem I suppose

trogdor

@Ash @BESW has mentioned there is probably more of it in that genre than anywhere else right now

@Ash I enjoyed my little personal prank on them for sure

user15026

@trogdor yeah, there is a definite trend in that direction lately which I like.

user15026

@trogdor as you should!

trogdor

The best part was that it was all Christian scifi and fantasy stuff that said things that opposed thier particular brand

But they were idiots who just looked at the covers and titles which just told them "Christian stuff"

XD

It still makes me chuckle

They were so freaking dumb

I do want to clarify that it was mostly the principal and a couple or so teachers

Most of the rest didn't care about that stuff or were even downright cool

But with the ones this did matter to I had built something of a reputation for being extremely well behaved but there was danger of me being corrupted or some such BS by my preferred reading

user15026

2:56 AM

Hahahaha oh that pleases me

trogdor

I don't know what they thought they were accomplishing seeing as I obviously was just going to read more of it at home because I had non of my school downtime for it now

That might also be why some of my grades dropped down to C's some of the time

Except Math that was all me having actual trouble with the subject

user15026

I struggle with numbers. They don't sit still as well as words

trogdor

There is a little if that for me

But it's more the endless formulas if "higher" Math

And the introduction of variables

That stuff gets me mostly

Somehow mixing letters that represent unknown numbers into math just turns off what parts of my brain actually know any math stuffs

And when it isn't that it's "now let's learn formula freaking number 263 "

user15026

@trogdor oh yeah I have so much trouble with that

trogdor

There are too many different types of math for me

BESW

3:03 AM

I did fine with variables, and okay with formulas. It's the numbers part that messes me up.

user15026

I tried learning stuff with this app called Dragon Box and that helped a little

trogdor

And for some reason they are all mandatory rote learning through high school and college

BESW

You can get all the formulas and variables right, but if you think 2+3=6 and 2x3=5, you will get everything wrong anyway.

user15026

It took me way too long to identify the wrongness there, I was like no that's...dang it

trogdor

@BESW so we have like, the exact opposite problem XD

BESW

3:05 AM

@trogdor By our powers combined we are... competent at maths.

trogdor

Lol

user15026

@BESW ooooh magical

BESW

Skin Horse-ish concept for an urban speculative campaign setting: there's a Weirdness veil, such that most people are deliberately blind to obviously Weird stuff. If you can see Weird stuff, or have Weird stuff forced upon you, the most productive coping mechanism is to fixate on something you like about the Weird stuff. In its most extreme forms, this produces mad scientists.

trogdor

3:21 AM

Also, I can do a certain amount of math in my head, but once it comes down to writing it out I need a lot of space, it's hard to follow where I'm going with it how it's usually spread out, and my handwriting is very hard to read

BESW

But for the average person who can see beyond the veil, it just creates a particular topic they're unnervingly enthusiastic about. The topic doesn't have to be specifically Weird, just somehow related to whatever Weird thing first broke through the veil for you.

trogdor

So sometimes I got bad grades even on themath I did completely correctly

BESW

(In Fate terms, this means every PC gets an aspect representing what they fixate on to cope with Weirdness.)

trogdor

@BESW nice

I like that a lot

I can't help but imagine a book with that premise

It would definitely get me to read it

user15026

@BESW like weirdness hyperfocus?

trogdor

3:26 AM

@Ash that's exactly what I was imagining

BESW

@Ash Exactly!

Ben

3:37 AM

@trogdor I once tried to figure out the function of sin/cos/tan because I forgot my scientific calculator. A for effort at least?

trogdor

@Ben lol

I played around a lot with calculators

linksassin

@Ben In that situation the trick is to write something like "assume sin(x)=1". Then continue as if that was true. You lose 1 mark for that being wrong but if the rest of your work is correct you should still do ok.

Ben

@BESW This reminds me of a DH game we played (unwittingly summons @MikeQ). We entered the mind of one of the other PCs, and my character, the Techpriest, was constantly trying to figure out his surroundings. He went a little mad after that.

@linksassin that is a pretty excellent point.

linksassin

@Ben It got me through Engineering/Com Sci. with a distinction average.

Ben

Nice :D

Unfortunately in my case I'd need to go back to high school haha

V2Blast

3:49 AM

@trogdor "overwhelming but ambiguous terror" is a good band name

2

@Ben DH = Dark Heresy?

Ben

4:02 AM

@V2Blast yes :)

trogdor

@V2Blast and they would probably disapprove if that band regardless what they sounded like XD

Ben

trogdor

Even if all they sang was "our God is an awesome God" in an incredibly respectful manner

Because again, they only look at the cover and Don't care about the content

linksassin

4:17 AM

@trogdor I know the feeling. I got in trouble for taking a Harry Potter book to church once.

@trogdor My friend had the perfect response to that. He found a genre called "Life Metal" it's hardcore death metal but with christian lyrics. Highly entertaining to watch the disapproving faces at church.

trogdor

@linksassin yeah, I don't think I was reading one of those there, but mostly because my father wanted to read them to us and by the time my siblings revolted against that ( I don't remember if I was an active participant person in that or not) I had lost enough interest in them that I allowed them to read the next book first, and by the time it was my turn I no longer wanted to

@linksassin yes that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of XD

They would have hated that stuff there

linksassin

@trogdor "Jesus is my sav-----IOURR!!!!!" is the only scremo music I have ever enjoyed.

trogdor

Which makes me all the more amused at thier expense

@linksassin there's just something great about it, I have to agree

linksassin

Our youth group got in big trouble once for having a Harry Potter round on a trivia night.

trogdor

Ouch

linksassin

4:25 AM

It was very strange because my youth minister was my first DM for DnD. Bit of a culture gap between the generations in my church

trogdor

Yeah that high school also bought the whole "D&D is quite literally Satan worship" thing Hook line and sinker

I hadn't played any D&D yet when that started making the rounds

But I had been interested in it

And frankly the fact that they hated it made me more interested when I had an opportunity to try it

Whoops

XD

linksassin

My wife told her grandparents that we were playing D&D the other day. They were appalled and started reassessing whether they approved of me at all, before we could smooth it over.

trogdor

Urrg

That's not cool

linksassin

TBH They are stuck in the 50's. I'm their favourite grandchild because I am a man and that makes me better than all of their granddaughters.

We just have to avoid any political or social conversation when we see them.

trogdor

Thankfully my parents have no idea what it is but let me explain what it is In broad strokes rather than assuming it's some weird cult,... Thing

linksassin

4:32 AM

When we got married they asked her "when are you quitting your job to be a housewife?"

And she's currently in trouble for letting me cook dinner half the time.

trogdor

@linksassin X(

I forget exactly how I explained it to them but it was something along the lines of saying that you create a character with certain stats that represents thier skill sets and you act like you are them while fighting monsters

And by that point they were breaking out the "oh that's nice" XD

linksassin

Our parents are ok, they would probably even play if we asked. But the stigma is real for some people.

trogdor

Mine would not play it, at the very least it's too complicated for thier tastes

My father can hardly enjoy Settlers of Catan

They prefer word games

Which i guess are complex too but are a different beast at any rate

linksassin

@trogdor Interesting, some of my players hate Catan for separate reasons but happily play D&D

trogdor

I mean, above all else they just have a lack of interest in it

Certainly not enough to roll up a character, rp that character, make choices in game, and set aside time every week for it

This hobby does require a certain amount of devotion to a schedule

To an extent that there are a lot of groups that have a designated game night that break down because of scheduling issues

And that's for the people who like it

linksassin

4:53 AM

Ah scheduling... the real reason the BBEG got away.

8

kviiri

@BESW not at the time although they did ask if I'd bounce ideas with them later

linksassin

@kviiri I'd be interested to hear why you have misgivings about a homebrew system because it borrows from other systems. I would have thought that was a better basis than something completely homebrewed.

kviiri

@linksassin That's not the point --- the point is they consider DnD's skill system to be a good part to borrow.

V2Blast

5:10 AM

@linksassin my friends (for whom I am DMing the 5e Starter Set) seem to enjoy Catan more than D&D... I am the reverse. but we both still enjoy both

linksassin

@kviiri Which edition though? I like the system from 3.5 with ranks and abilitity scores. But I like the improved names for skills in 5e. I have actually considered making a homebrew system that combines the best of both.

@V2Blast I've found Catan to be a bit of a polarising game. People either like it or they don't. I don't mind it but I certainly prefer to play rpgs.

kviiri

@linksassin 5e, I think

In general I do agree that copy-splice-mutate is a good foundation for game design

linksassin

@kviiri The edition will make a big difference. I can't say I'm a fan of the "proficiency bonus" system of 5e. I prefer more customisation than it provides

V2Blast

I like 5e's relative simplicity but its skill system isn't great

kviiri

5:25 AM

@linksassin Proficiency or other modifiers is just details --- the point is that the DnD skill system is a very shallow mechanic whose main virtue is that it's reasonably decoupled from the much more central combat engine

linksassin

@V2Blast Exactly. I quite like the simplified system. I prefer how they made Perception and Investigate separate. And Deception is better than Bluff and a bunch of other changes were really good. But I don't like the lack of flexibility.

@kviiri That's probably fair. But I think more in depth and complex skill systems often become more convoluted and end up detracting from the experience. Shadowrun is an example of that.

kviiri

@linksassin That's an orthogonal quality. Apocalypse World for one manages a more intricate non-combat gameplay without having any more complex rules than DnD has (in fact, I'd say they're simpler but more comprehensive)

And although I haven't tried it, 13th Age's backgrounds seem to me like they perform the same function with more flavor and flexibility than DnD's skill system does.

linksassin

I will need to do more research into these. I haven't played anything Apocalypse World based but from things I've heard in this chat I certainly need to

kviiri

The rule book is a very recommended read!

It tells you to do far more things than a normal GM guide does but it's all good advice

You can actually get the 1e rule book for free on the game's homesite

It's largely the same as 2e

linksassin

5:43 AM

Thanks I'll look into reading it when I have time.

Ben

7:48 AM

OK so I had a bit of a chat with my GM about my corruption system. They can up with a simpler version, but I feel like it removes a bit of the feeling of character development. Basically it works like inspiration. You start off with x points, and you can use it to gain advantage or something like that. When you run out, you do something "corrupt" to gain points back.

It's simple and effective. But it removes that overlay of "losing oneself" to the corruption.

They did like my 2d20 check for maximum corruption though

V2Blast

I've only played one session of it, and I only have a passing familiarity with your existing idea for a corruption system, but I'd suggest looking at Adventures in Middle-earth's Shadow system, if only for inspiration

(...fair warning: I haven't actually read through most of the AiME player's guide yet, only skimmed it :P )

Ben

I think I did look into that, and it was very much tied to stats. More so than I feel L want my system to be

I don't recall if that system had any max threshold for corruption though?

V2Blast

tied to stats in what way? misdeeds in particular gain you Shadow points without a save

"If the Loremaster determines that a Misdeed has been committed, the guilty character automatically gains a number of Shadow points (see table below). Player-heroes do not make a Wisdom saving throw when committing a Misdeed, as they are not being tempted by the Shadow: they are willingly embracing its ways"

(I think all the other sources have a DC 15 (or 12) Wisdom save though, e.g. anguish, blighted lands, tainted treasure)

Ben

8:06 AM

The wisdom saving throw was one of them. Not sure how I feel about that in my system.

V2Blast

yeah, it was the misdeeds part I was thinking of

Ben

The 2d20 system I feel is good though. Basically when a player reaches max corruption in one area, they must make a series of saves - like death saves, or be lost to it.

The trouble is, in this system, there is no way for other players to react, and players can reach this point outside of combat, so there is no initiative order.

V2Blast

as I posted a screenshot of earlier, a party member stayed behind to protect a kid while we went after an NPC that had been affected by some magic water and ran into the woods. the party member rolled doubled nat. 1s (not at advantage/disadvantage, just how roll20 rolls by default) and then got crit by a spider and went down. he later woke up in a strange dwelling, and took an axe he found there. he got a few Shadow points for that

ah

Ben

This means if I use the "death save" system, it's basically just rolling d20s until you get 3 successes or 3 failures.

So what I came up with instead was, when you reach that point, any time you roll a d20, roll another one at the same time. One roll is for the skill check, or ability save, what have you; and the other is for your save Vs corruption.

You then allocate which is which.

So say you need a con save Vs poison. You roll 2d20, and you get a 4 and a 15. You have no successes or failures yet, so you take a failure because you don't want to be poisoned.

You might get two failures, you might get two successes. This also works with advantage/disadvantage.

And it can work both in, and out of combat.

I am a little bit proud of myself for that one. Haha

BESW

9:05 AM

Note to self: one of the lessons of Butcher and Gaiman is that universal principles for fantastical structures, whether absolute or relativistic, erase cultures and belief systems. Don't explain everything, just explain the thing you've got going on (cf Aaronovitch, McGuire, Okorafor).

kviiri

10:15 AM

I've been going through stuff in 7th Sea for my own hack of it and tossing out stuff left and right

vicky_molokh

@kviiri Lore stuff?

kviiri

@vicky_molokh Largely so. 7th Sea has a pretty expansive setting that I personally found rather enjoyable but gets unwieldy very easy

Although mechanically, I plan to replace the engine with that of AW

vicky_molokh

@BESW Hmmm. I think you perhaps (unintentionally?) pointed out another dichotomy in worldbuilding: supernatural-as-esoteric-and-unknowable vs. supernatural-as-science-and-knowable. I suppose two dichotomies. An analogy from the real world: metal transmutation started out as an esoteric idea that was viewed differently across cultures, but nowadays the nuclear physics knowledge involved is pretty similar between e.g. First and Second World despite radical cultural differences between them.

kviiri

So I've basically cut back from "whole Europe" scale to what is essentially a fantasy version of Italy. This means we'll still have some political plot hooks but with much greater focus. I'm dropping national magic schools too; magic is, in my take, only wielded by villains ("easy magic") or through highly specific, more narratively oriented rituals ("hard magic")

Archaeology is cool but I'm not too fond of the precursor tech idea... not sure what I'm going to do with that bit yet. At least archaeology will be a normal, legit science pursued by devoted academians.

vicky_molokh

Well, of course I'm not your target audience, but personally I found it cool that 7S provided a plethora of variable options of whom to play and where to adventure.

kviiri

10:28 AM

@vicky_molokh That was, for me, largely a problem. I am a bit of a history buff and the worldbuilding was kinda appealing to me, but at the same time it contributed to a feeling of a chaotic, scattered experience instead of people working on a single, interesting story

Cater to everyone, and you wind up satisfying none -style of deal.

So what I'm trying to do is, in large part, cutting out content that is secondary to my interests, while trying to provide better representation for the bits I like

vicky_molokh

@kviiri That's a fair observation.

BESW

@vicky_molokh Nope, and your proposed dichotomy is also indicative of what I'm actually talking about: supernatural as cultural.

The idea that the supernatural is either knowable or unknowable is, itself, a perspective limited to particular cultural epistemologies.

vicky_molokh

@BESW The whole word 'supernatural' is something of a loaded term, and in retrospect perhaps my word choice is hasty.

BESW

There's not really a good word for it in the sense I'm proposing.

vicky_molokh

But the point is, there's the world. Various people try to learn about the world. They find some mysterious entities, concepts etc. What happens when they do succeed in learning about it and turn it from the mysterious to the commonly known (in the sense of how-it-works knowledge to some reasonable degree)?

kviiri

10:36 AM

@vicky_molokh That said, it could've worked if we had had a better understanding on how to make it work. But I, at the time, lacked such understanding --- 7th Sea 2e (the one we were playing) seems to quite heavily expect each player deciding their own story, and I didn't know how to really reconcile that with the wish everyone'd be adventuring together and tackling the same issues.

To be fair I'm still not sure how it was supposed to be run.

vicky_molokh

And once they learn about how it actually works, the explanations start looking much more similar even between radically different cultures.

kviiri

Jul 10 '18 at 11:24, by kviiri

With each player having a Story of their own (although I've asked them not to finalize anything before Session 0) there's a lot to run, and that's not including the various other things the GM should throw in (Season/Episode stories and Villain schemes for Influece)

BESW

@vicky_molokh This is, again, assuming that all cultures are filters for the same objective experience. Which they demonstrably aren't.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Elaborate? Are all cultures not filters for, e.g., the objective phenomenon of nuclear fission?

BESW

We aren't talking about science (which is, itself, a specialized cultural filter for a very specific subset of experiences).

Cultures aren't just filters for observed truth; they're structures for creating truth, and tools for interacting with truth.

vicky_molokh

10:44 AM

Here we get into the complicated matter of 'what is science', and the stereotypically clearly scientific example was chosen as a matter of convenience of showing a 'this is how the world works' case.

BESW

And the experience and needs of one group is vastly different from the experience and needs of another, based on history, environment, values, etc.

I'm not an advocate of absolute relativism; I do believe that there are objective truths to existence and the human condition. But many of the things we accept as objective are in fact entirely or almost entirely hinged on perspective and values.

vicky_molokh

Cultures being tools for interaction with truth seems accurate, but creating truth? That raises the question of what we understand under the word 'truth' in this context (running into semantics is regrettable). I started out with talking about reality-as-it-actually-exists (regardless of subjective opinions about it).

BESW

And what we're talking about here isn't the kind of observed physical phenomenon which science might try to isolate from the personal experience (a choice which many cultures would find absurd).

kviiri

One thing I want to include in my 7th Sea -like is representation for the Italian Jewish minority of the time, since the Jewish culture, mythology and their ability to survive and in cases even thrive during the harsh bigotry of the Renaissance intrigues me. Jews were conspicuously absent from 7th Sea as far as I can remember, and while representing oppressed minorities isn't always easy, I would like to see a proper, respectable treatment of them.

BESW

No, you started out talking about my notes toward an urban speculative fiction setting and how speculative fiction erases cultures by treating one cultural truth as universal.

vicky_molokh

10:48 AM

@BESW I wonder if I misunderstood what was being talked about in the note. I assumed it was things like e.g. house elves/domovyky/etc., which may be described differently across cultures but objectively exist in a setting.

(Those are things I thought were implied in the context of urban fantasy Dresden etc. - 'supernatural' creatures, magic etc.)

Am I misunderstanding what phenomena are being talked about in that note?

BESW

No, but you're missing what I'm saying about them.

If there's one "elf-like thing" which every culture "interprets" its own way... then I'm erasing everything each culture says about itself by telling them they're wrong about elves.

vicky_molokh

I don't understand why it's 'erasing' the says about them. Cultural assumptions can just be misinformed. E.g. my local culture assumes that scorpions commit suicide when surrounded by embers, but my culture is just wrong about the objective events going on when a scorpion is overheated through irradiation.

BESW

Elves and leprechauns and duendes and domovyky aren't the same thing. They mean different things, they fill different roles, they embody different worldviews. Collapsing them into a single misinterpreted thing--especially when, as in Dresden Files, there's a "correct" view which reinforces a dominant culture--erases those differences from the fantastical world.

They can't be conflated without collapsing and flattening their associated cultures into a pablum of "we're all the same really" rather than celebrating our differences.

This isn't about science.

It's about ways of knowing and ways of valuing.

vicky_molokh

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Why is my culture being wrong about scorpions or about Cherokee is realistic (with the latter two having objective existence), but my culture being misinformed about, say, elves, is bad worldbuilding?

BESW

As for culture as a way of making truth... you were talking recently about how learning multiple languages creates space for people to understand multiple ways of seeing the same thing. Gender is a cultural construct which is nonetheless tangibly true in its effect on the structure of society and the bodies of individuals.

Currency is another common example of a thing which is true because our cultures have deemed it so.

vicky_molokh

11:01 AM

To put it short without turning into a tangent, the thing about languages is that people mistake their linguistic habits for cosmic laws of nature.

BESW

I didn't say bad worldbuilding either. I said "Universal principles for fantastical structures, whether absolute or relativistic, erase cultures and belief systems."

doppelgreener

o/

vicky_molokh

@BESW I may have jumped to the conclusion that flattening/erasure implies unrealistic depiction of cultures within the worldbuilding.

BESW

They erase nuance and replace a multiplicity of perspectives with just one.

@vicky_molokh It usually does. But "bad worldbuilding" is not my take-away. I have not actually passed a value judgement, and if I were to it would not be a value judgement about the quality of worldbuilding.

vicky_molokh

@BESW But the usefulness of multiplicity of perspectives is that they help cast away one's narrow assumptions and get closer to understanding how the world actually is.

BESW

11:04 AM

@vicky_molokh The world isn't always actually anything except multiplicitous.

Some things don't have a single core truth. Some things are just lots of different things at once. Culture is one of these things.

doppelgreener

For what it's worth, very little language learning has helped me better learn any "actual" truth. Lots of philosophical learning has helped me learn their isn't an "actual" truth of the world, just what people make of it and how they relate to it. Language learning has taught me new ways to relate to it and new ways to interpret and see things in the world.

Even physicists are sure they don't know the "actual" truth, just some abstractions that are from the right point of view very helpful in predicting what the actual truth will result in.

vicky_molokh

@BESW I suppose I have found another example of an underlying fundamental difference in views that leads us to have radically different worldviews on the 'surface'.

@doppelgreener I accept that reaching absolutely accurate actual truth is unlikely to be possible for people. But there seems to be a process of getting closer to it even if never reaching it.

BESW

I absolutely believe that there are certain objective central core truths to reality.

But many things can't be analyzed that way; is coffee or tea better?

vicky_molokh

> is coffee or tea better?

This is an incomplete question.

It serves as an interesting example of how some questions are easier or harder to convey in a few words than others in a given situation.

trogdor

@doppelgreener I mean I wouldn't go too far in that direction either, but there is subjective truth

but I believe there is objective truth too

BESW

11:13 AM

It's not an incomplete question; it's a question of the same calibre as the one you're trying to impose on the discussion.

trogdor

everyone jumps and then falls back to the ground

unless they went up into space

but most of us have not done that

BESW

The answer is "depends on who you ask and what they're judging it by," which is exactly my point about faerie courts and vampires and ghosts and so forth--and that most urban speculative fiction assumes the author is the only person worth asking, and creates an entire world in which everyone who truly understands the nature of the reality shares the author's beverage preference.

doppelgreener

You're right, that was an overly extreme statement. There is objective truth of course, but most of what we work with is subjective truth, and actually handling objective truth directly is almost entirely out of our grasp, we just handle concepts that abstract objective truth usefully but transform it in the process into something different — meaning we work almost entirely with subjective perception of truth.

trogdor

@doppelgreener yes I do agree with that

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener I think I agree with most or all of that. Maybe I just place more focus on making the subjective tools still closer to the objective truth even if they can never get in direct touch with it.

BESW

11:17 AM

And for truths which are objective, I'm on board with that too.

vicky_molokh

@BESW I think there is a distinction between, say, 'are vampires or faerie better?' and 'what objective traits do vampires actually possess?'.

doppelgreener

I place value in being able to see that truth in a great number of different ways. It helps me deal with a greater variety of people than I could otherwise.

BESW

@vicky_molokh Marvel Anime: Blade handled that one pretty well: every culture's vampires have the properties of that culture's vampires.

When we talk about fantastic phenomena, we're talking about cultures. I don't want to create worlds where cultures are wrong about... themselves.

vicky_molokh

@BESW 'Supernatural' creatures varying is quite reasonable, yes. Though what happens when the legend of a creature manages to reach a region where the creature itself doesn't live? I think this is also how knowledge can get distorted.

BESW

And a culture being wrong about itself is a very sharp distinction from a cultural belief being at odds with a scientific quality.

You seem to be conflating the two.

doppelgreener

11:21 AM

The Kirin comes to mind

BESW

(Which goes back to the idea that supernatural phenomena in a work of fiction are either knowable or unknowable; this is a false choice which only makes sense in some cultures.)

vicky_molokh

@BESW I would like to ask to avoid misunderstandings: when you say 'wrong about itself', you are using it as distinct from 'wrong about this or that creature/magic/etc.', yes?

The way I understand the distinction, almost everything is likely to fall under the latter, but maybe I'm not understanding how you draw the distinction.

BESW

Yes, though in this case they can mean the same thing depending on context.

Knowledge can be contextual, and knowledge can be liminal. Often it is both.

But what we're talking about here is the idea of, for example, Jim Butcher writing novels (as he has) in which Native American culture is wrong about elements of Native American culture like what he'd call "werewolves."

Or Neil Gaiman writing stories about African deities which derive their power from distinctly British/American concepts.

These people have written stories in which real-world cultures are dramatically wrong about themselves.

Compare Ben Aaronovitch, who has managed to depict several varieties of European-style vampire without ever even implying that Philippine culture is mistaken about its own vampire-like creatures.

kviiri

Groaaan. I hate it when chat flags reviews are designed in a way that makes it hard to see the context for the flagged message.

BESW

@kviiri Hear, hear.

vicky_molokh

11:32 AM

The way you describe the case of werewolves (my knowledge of DS is admittedly shallow), I'm getting an impression that it's a case of '[most] human cultures are wrong about supernaturals' rather than '...about themselves'.

BESW

No. Butcher specifically invokes Native beliefs about shapeshifters and then presents them as inaccurate, saying that those beliefs are inaccurately describing a settler-inspired concept.

vicky_molokh

Which is, again, why I think I don't understand how you draw the distinction and when you don't.

BESW

Remember, we're talking about human cultures all the way through here because we're talking about actual real-world cultures and so far as we know those are all human.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Ah, so Butcher is saying that werewolves postdate the arrival of the ships from the East, while the legends of werewolves predate the event?

BESW

No.

Butcher is saying that shapeshifters in Turtle Island pre-date colonial contact, and that Native understanding of them is inaccurate because those pre-Contact shapeshifters are werewolves which follow settler-style logic (not traditional werewolf logic, but logic he's invented and based on ways of knowing that come from settlers rather than from Natives) rather than beings which adhere to Native beliefs about shapeshifters.

He has written Natives which are wrong about beings in their own culture.

(And super offensively, too, it's all "spirit of the wolf" nonsense that sounds vaguely Native to anyone who's only ever seen Native Americans in movies but actually adheres firmly to Western ways of thinking about that sort of thing.)

KorvinStarmast

11:40 AM

@goodguy5 My work is done here. :) Been away for a few days, that made me smile. :)

vicky_molokh

@BESW Reading the paragraphs that follow, I'm wondering if maybe I should stop wasting your time because I still don't see how that's not a case of 'wrong about supernaturals' rather than 'wrong about itself'. (I do see a case of creator bias, but that's a different matter than the former distinction.)

BESW

Can we please stop having this conversation now? I don't want to talk about specifics because it makes me feel slimy, and I'm getting kind of tired of spending hours explaining every tangential thread when you've misunderstood something I've said.

vicky_molokh

Yeah, I should stop wasting your time.

BESW

I can't get any clearer than the above: Supernaturals are part of cultures and/or belief systems. If a culture is wrong about its supernaturals, it is wrong about itself. I have said that over and over again.

I don't have any other way to say it.

I was hoping to have a discussion about structuring RPG settings that create alternative paradigms with room for true cultural/regional/belief-based variety, and not just the appearance of variety like, eg, Gaiman's version.

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nitsua60

1:13 PM

@BESW Just out of curiosity, which Gaiman (if not all) had this brewing?

BESW

American Gods and Anansi Boys. He presents a world where supernatural beings emerge from human belief in them. Which sounds like an embrace of cultural diversity, but is still imposing one form of origin and power on all supernatural beings of all cultures regardless of what those cultures think about the origin and nature of the supernatural.

I wouldn't be surprised if he'd done it elsewhere as well; he's fond of treating culture-specific storytelling elements as if they're universal, and hammering his third-hand knowledge of other cultures into those shapes so everything looks same-y.

BESW

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(American Gods would be improved by at least 30% if it presented the American gods as a unique phenomenon and not simply a modern iteration of a universal experience. It'd tie the themes together much more nicely and step on far fewer toes.)

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast happy to help

GcL

@BESW Ugh... humans being human. /S

Rubiksmoose

2:07 PM

Well it looks like this meta of mine is having a bit of a flare up.

Also, good morning!

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose they make an ointment for that

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay The day the universe changed: that's a series that did roughly what you propose there. I loved it. Tried to get the tapes/discs and it was over 800 dollars at the time. Not in the budget.

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KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay Arneson was using alignment in pre D&D stuff; I have part of that in an answer to HeyICanChan's question about back stabbing early/pre D&D.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 hahaha maybe I need to ask my doctor eh?

goodguy5

;)

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