Not a bar, but plays one on TV

vicky_molokh

14:12

@Rubiksmoose I've always felt that phrases like these carry a disappointingly USA-centric vision of what constitutes 'a' culture, and erase many important cultural nuances within a very large demographic, as well as cultural extermination events within/between subsets thereof.

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh "what constitutes a culture" seems to belong on "English Usage" or "philosophy" stack. ;)

vicky_molokh

@KorvinStarmast What I mean is I'm sure that many Caucasian cultures would object to being considered so homogenuous to be considered one thing. I'm sure Azerbaijani, Dagestani and Georgians alone are distinct enough to not be considered a single culture. Doing the USAian thing of lumping flatlander cultures like French with them is even more ridiculous.

BESW

@vicky_molokh Mmm. While there's some very important conversations around the framing of whiteness as a culture rather than a power structure, it's definitely not the topic here and now. It was a common but imprecise word choice whose meaning was nonetheless clear in context. An American talking about America can make American-specific observations about their American experiences.

vicky_molokh

@BESW OK, stepping back.

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh As an American, your charge of some kind of "USAian" lumping thing is offensive, and I quite frankly don't get where you derive that charge. You might want to be a bit less of what you dislike, since you just did it yourself.

David Coffron

14:25

@BESW ooh. I'd love to have that conversation (not now though, there appears to be some tension). Lots of interesting considerations involving my favorite time period in history

KorvinStarmast

OK, also stepping back, no need for me to get cranky.

BESW

Thank you. This is a subject that requires a deep dive into a wide variety of contextual subjects such as tragically obscure rhetorical histories about, eg, the appropriation of the Caucasus by white supremacist psuedoscience and its subsequent integration into mainstream language so that many English-speaking people are no longer aware of its original context. That's not a conversation to insert into another as an aside.

vicky_molokh

Should I apologise-and-elaborate, or should I just shut up?

goodguy5

who's getting cranky about what and who can I antagonize?

BESW

← 11 messages moved from RPG General Chat

Rubiksmoose

14:28

:49859854 I don't think there is any need to appologize but it might be better to just drop it. (IMHO) or, at the very least people can continue it in NAB

BESW

← 1 message moved from RPG General Chat

David Coffron

@goodguy5 I say antagonize the true wight culture, and their oppression by Orcus.

goodguy5

I gather from the move to nabbpootv that it's about the RAW tag

oh no... something about usa-ism?

wtf did you guys get into while I was in that meeting?

Rubiksmoose

hahaha culture wars apparently.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 Mostly just a conversation about what defines a culture as oppose to just a descriptor

But there is some underlying gravitas to the terms involved

BESW

14:30

@goodguy5 Naw, it's about how white supremacy has cultivated the false notion of "white culture," which is very destructive from many angles and extremely difficult to disentangle from mainstream USA rhetoric that many people don't know derives from those principles.

Rubiksmoose

fwiw take my above comments as slipshod phrasing made by a layman that hasn't ever really thought about culture in any more than a basic context and not all that much at that. Just for context. Probably an argument about privilege there and whatnot. However, I likely don't have much else to contribute to the conversation though.

David Coffron

@BESW Yeah. There are certainly some aspects of "USA-mainstream-culture" that aren't at all connected to white supremacy, but some do show up and distinguishing requires some rigor

goodguy5

I agree that "white culture" is a dumb concept.
/insert jokes about pumpkin spice/

but many "colors" have diverse enough subgroups that lumping them together is similarly ridiculous.

Yuuki

@goodguy5 /insert jokes about general lack of spice/

goodguy5

ha

David Coffron

14:33

@Yuuki Ooh. That's a good one

BESW

@goodguy5 It was sparked by talking about a novel I'm reading, which is "dedicated to anyone who has ever fallen in love with a culture that was devouring their own," and then someone commenting that they're usually on the other side of that power dynamic, but using some phrases which are used almost universally in USA discourse but are rooted in the above "white culture" rhetoric, which someone else pointed out in rather abruptly because of their connection to the other side of the dynamic.

Yuuki

Although that does remind of a joke about the British Empire: "Why'd you guys conquer half the world looking for spice and then end up not using it?"

David Coffron

@Yuuki (if it was a reference to colonialist policies of nations like Great Britain and Portugal, I like)

goodguy5

@BESW I cannot follow this comment. too many pronouns, I think?

BESW

Fair enough. I'm very tired.

My dad went to bed two hours behind schedule.

David Coffron

14:34

@goodguy5 He's trying to be super-adherent to Be Nice I think

goodguy5

ah

David Coffron

Hard to frame it without tickling shoes

Rubiksmoose

in RPG General Chat, 31 mins ago, by Rubiksmoose

@BESW I must say that I fear my culture as a white caucasian male has always been on the other side of that coin :-/

goodguy5

got it, thanks

David Coffron

And then:

23 mins ago, by vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose I've always felt that phrases like these carry a disappointingly USA-centric vision of what constitutes 'a' culture, and erase many important cultural nuances within a very large demographic, as well as cultural extermination events within/between subsets thereof.

That's how the topic came up

goodguy5

14:36

Do we have to be nice to Nazis?

Legitimate question. Like if a white supremacist starts touting their crap, do we have to be nice?

user15026

@DavidCoffron this made me curl my feet up in a "no thanks" sort of motion :P

BESW

@goodguy5 Ah, now we're getting into "what is nice" territory and the Stack will not be very helpful.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 You have to Be Nice, but you can flag anything that is not nice, and then we let moderation filter things out

goodguy5

fair enough, to both of you

BESW

By my principles, it is harmful and immoral to let someone spew harmful rhetoric unchallenged in a space where I have any power to challenge it.

David Coffron

14:38

@BESW I agree, but I think challenging the rhetoric is best in a "nice" way (whatever that means)

goodguy5

lmao

I glanced over to regular chat and saw yuukis message:

https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/49859987#49859987

and the "racial" was funny in context.

BESW

That does not mean calling them names. In the case of white supremacist propaganda, it also does not mean debating them.

goodguy5

wait, how do you inline a quote?

doppelgreener

@goodguy5 The Stack guidance would say don't break the Be Nice rules yourself, but flag to let moderators kick them out on their ass.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 Has to be its own message

goodguy5

14:38

@doppelgreener :thumbs_up:

BESW

It means refusing to give them air time.

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron thanks

David Coffron

@BESW My confusion with that philosophy comes in when they already have ensured air time. Then isn't debating them best?

vicky_molokh

Seems like there's too much confusion without an elaboration.
I objected because the phrase (a) implicitly equates the state of being born 'melanin-challenged' with being a member of some sort of unified culture and (b) extends 'Caucasian' to pretty much anyone of the former group, even flatlander cultures like English, French, Siberian etc.

BESW

@DavidCoffron There's not gonna be a universal best practice. Context matters a LOT. But in most cases, debating bad-faith arguments legitimizes them and spreads their influence no matter how well you dismantle them, because they aren't using logical persuasion; they're appealing to base emotions and perceptions of power.

Rubiksmoose

14:41

@DavidCoffron luckily in the context of chat we the community (through the mods) have control of our air time so that would unlikely be an issue here.

David Coffron

@vicky_molokh That's very fair. There are a wide range of "white" peoples with very different cultures. I think that when most people refer to "white culture" they are discussing the colonial and imperial policies of the late 19th and early 20th centuries

goodguy5

sounds about right

BESW

Persuade individuals in private as friends; publicly present compelling arguments for positive alternatives independently.

David Coffron

@BESW Yeah, debating non-sequiturs (or in the broader sense; arguments without logical consistency) is always a gray area.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh Yup I don't disagree with this. Not sure how I could have stated it better though. I'm not versed enough in the conversation to really have the vernacular needed to avoid that particular critique. Which is a fault I'll own. Though I wasn't attempting to be precise in that statement anyways since the context of the conversation I think provided ample cover to tell what I meant.

(fwiw)

David Coffron

14:44

@Rubiksmoose You and your cube-privilege showing again :P

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose hugs

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron eek! [covers self hastily]

@vicky_molokh returns hug

goodguy5

you're already covered in vicky hug

BESW

David Coffron

@BESW I like that; rather than directly confront bad ideas publicly, just promote the better ideas. That avoids drawing attention while steering the body of ideas in the better direction.

Yuuki

14:47

@DavidCoffron Why debate them? You are already convinced of your own (not-Nazi) philosophy and as someone once said, "you can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into".

David Coffron

@Yuuki That's just it. Debate is not the best medium. In some situations, debate can help address people who are not sold on either side, but I agree that this topic is not fit for that avenue.

BESW

Yes, sometimes a useful reason to engage in public debate is if you have a good chance of influencing the audience. But that's... almost never, for topics like white supremacy. It takes great skill and self-awareness to do it properly, because that kind of struggle for the audience is never logical. It's a performance of control and power.

David Coffron

Like if I were trying to decide between representative and direct democracy, I'd like to view an expert debate to see the pros and cons of either side. Researching both sides independently can take much longer, especially as scholarly rebuttals are so much harder to find outside of debate circles.

BESW

That's the real purpose of the Gish gallop, by the way: if you're always making statements and the other person is always refuting them instead of making statements of their own, audiences come away with a sense that you were in control of the conversation.

Yuuki

If I was trying to make a decision, watching a debate would honestly be my last choice of research.

David Coffron

14:53

@BESW That's an interesting bit I hadn't considered. The pathos of it.

@Yuuki For decisions I agree, but for philosophical positioning, debates can be very useful as it puts counterarguments front and center. Certainly shouldn't be the only source, but counterarguments are just hard to find.

BESW

@DavidCoffron For alt-right rhetoric, the pathos is pretty much the whole point.

David Coffron

@BESW I guess I'm just a debate-purist and have a bit of wishful thinking working against me that other people will be as academically honest in there procedure as I try to be.

BESW

There's also, of course, always this:

> The function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being. Somebody says you have no language and you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn’t shaped properly so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing.

It is not only applicable to racism.

David Coffron

If I were in a position where I was trying to argue for a widely unaccepted and disgraceful position, I would want as much logical and hopefully scientific backing as possible. But that's not where they come from (as fruitless as that endeavor would be, they often don't even try)

BESW

I don't always agree with Ian Danskin, but he shows his work enough to be a good jumping-off point for a lot of these ideas: His Innuendo Studios series deal with trying to understand the (emotional) logic of these sorts of subjects.

But for myself, the primary response is what I said above: filling spaces with positive alternatives. Positive actions, positive attitudes, positive options.

David Coffron

15:02

@BESW What about all the electrons, don't make them feel left out. Let the little guy have something :P

BESW

That means supporting the marginalized or victimized and using the privilege the system gives me to amplify their voices. It means showing compassion to people who are doing bad things because I don't think they're bad people, but not confusing compassion with permissiveness.

It means finding common ground and building diverse communities, identifying needs and working with people to address them.

> When a thought of war comes, oppose it with a stronger thought of peace. A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love.

David Coffron

@BESW That's the part I have trouble with sometimes. There are a number of positions that I vehemently disagree with, even though I know from their perspective they are doing what they think is right. It's tough for me to separate the person from the position. Never to the point of ad hominems, but often it degrades my respect for a person (which is not always warranted)

BESW

That's not just a platitude about being calm, it's an active thing we can do for our surroundings and communities.

user15026

@DavidCoffron That is so hard, yeah. It takes effort. Which is not that it isn't worth doing but it is so easy to go "nah thats too hard, the person is irredeemable".

BESW

@DavidCoffron Oh yes. If I've made it sound like I think this is easy, not at all! This stuff is hard work. It's a lot easier to give up on people and write them off as incorrigible.

KorvinStarmast

15:07

@Yuuki last time I was in London, there was plenty of spicy foods though most of them were some kind of kabob or in an Indian restaurant of either Tandoori or Madras kinds.

BESW

To do this, look for common ground. Find shared concerns and shared hopes.

It can be difficult, and again we do this with individuals not groups because change happens at the neighbourhood level, where you can share a reality with another person and work together.

(BTW @Anaphory are you taking notes? This is all Ruhi stuff here.)

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh I can agree with your frustration on that, and that's nicely put. (I got to learn a bit of "europe, North of the Alps and South of the Alps" cultural frictions a few decades ago .. it was a thing I had never quite "grokked" until I had it explained to me.

BESW

@DavidCoffron There's a quote that I find very helpful for this sort of challenge, but it's very faith-based. May I share it?

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast And don't get me started on the dwarves in the Alps. (fantasy allusion, not a comment on the height of Bosnians and Swiss, if that's even a thing)

@BESW Sure

BESW

> Be in perfect unity. Never become angry with one another. Let your eyes be directed toward the kingdom of truth and not toward the world of creation. Love the creatures for the sake of God and not for themselves. You will never become angry or impatient if you love them for the sake of God. Humanity is not perfect. There are imperfections in every human being, and you will always become unhappy if you look toward the people themselves. But if you look toward God, you will love them and be kind to them, for the world of God is the world of perfection and complete mercy. Therefore, do not l…

David Coffron

15:13

@BESW Definitely a lot of good messages here. Thanks

BESW

Thanks for letting me share!

The way I see it, there are plenty of people ready and willing to rip apart nasty cruel old traditions, and doing a pretty good job of it (many of them think they're reinforcing those ways of thinking and doing and being, but the harder they cling to those things, the more obvious it is those ways don't actually work).

But there's also work which needs to be done in building up new ways of thinking and doing and being, so that there's something to fall back on as the old structures fall apart.

And a LOT fewer people are really putting their back into that, so those of us who are ready and willing need to focus on the building and leave the ripping-apart to everybody else.

user15026

Otherwise, there's not going to be anything once the ripping is done, and then people will be just as lost.

user15026

(I think.)

David Coffron

@Ash Or worse, a different bad idea fills the gap

user15026

Yeah, exactly. Gotta work with the people where they're at to build the things they actually want/need to replace the toxic thing with the better ones thing

user15026

15:26

Like if you go in and go "I will save you, I know what you need", that isn't the answer either.

BESW

And those action verbs Ash is using are important. Working, building, replacing. This isn't just talk; it's joining with friends and neighbours to study your local reality, identify problems, make and enact plans, then reflect on the outcomes to start the cycle over again.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Thank you for that. It's a keeper.

user15026

@BESW Yeah, it's all about meeting people on their terms, which might not be yours, but that's fine, you're just the hands and feet.

BESW

By focusing on serving our local community, we can create spaces where all the theoretical politics and fear of the other can be set aside and we can find common ground by seeking compassionate solutions to local challenges. And out of that, we can develop a foundation for compassionate dialogue about more global challenges.

user15026

You do the listening first, then the figuring, then the doing, then the "did this work? why? why not? what can we do better" and then you do it again with a new thing (or the same thing if it needs it) and all of that is SUPER TRICKY when it involves like...letting go of your own stuff and your own ideas about what should be or shouldn't be

BESW

15:30

Urrgh yes.

user15026

(Remembering that you aren't your ideas and and judgement on any ideas you might have is not reflection on you is SO HARD AUGH)

4

BESW

So tricky. But so worth it.

This, by the way, is what the RPG General Chat has done and is doing.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron to come full circle, Gary Gygax' dad was a Swiss immigrant, but I don't recall EGG being other than about average height, or maybe a touch over average.

BESW

Despite not being a local neighbourhood in any strict sense, we can have these conversations because we've done the groundwork by listening to each other's concerns and hopes about games and the site, studying together, helping to plan and enact plans side-by-side.

user15026

I've noticed the doing, as someone completely outside the thing (y'all are so kind to let me chill even though I've yet to actually touch your site)

BESW

15:35

@Ash Bah, probably a third of the people in chat at any given time are just there to get a vicarious RPG high because we don't have any groups of our own.

David Coffron

@BESW That was me until I started GMing on roll20. I don't enjoy doing the player thing off the table, but I like doing the GMing thing

Rubiksmoose

@Ash Well I think you've done plenty to contribute great things and vibes to chat so I wouldn't say we "let" you do anything. You've earned your place in the community as far as I'm concerned.

4

BESW

@DavidCoffron Isn't it weird how a relatively minor change in roles can completely change how we interact through a given medium?

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose +1 to this.

BESW

David Coffron

15:37

@BESW Yeah; I actually prefer being a player on the table (although don't mind GMing in any sense), but I just can't stand being limited to voice to demonstrate my single character; I like the unspoken interaction between players, and the feel of that critical hit landing on the table

user15026

Awww, man, way to make me all happy wobbles. delighted handflapping

BESW

user15026

@BESW Yes, I greatly resemble Frog at the moment

BESW

@Ash And thank you for chiming in on this. I love hearing your take on it! And I think sometimes people feel like it's just a BESW thing because I'm the one always talking about it. but these are practical principles being used everywhere and your contributions help round it out.

user15026

Yep, it's stuff I see and am trying to work on even in my neighbourhood! :)

doppelgreener

16:16

@Ash it is

user15026

17:06

@doppelgreener It's something I've been tryign to work on.

David Coffron

19:53

@KorvinStarmast Didn't want to interrupt the nice convo in main chat; I see your name show up in The Upper Room and I wanted to ask you about about that Stack. I am interested in learning more about different sects of Christianity from an academic perspective, and like the Stack format for direct questions in that realm. Do you think Christianity SE is useful for that, or are there many examples of denominational "preaching"

(for lack of a better word)

Like, do people usually answer based on the precepts of the denomination asked about, or do answers show up referencing beliefs for sects not asked about?

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron As a whole, the CSE tries to keep that denomination preaching out of the Q and A and mostly succeeds. But, if you go into the comments, it crops up now and again. I like the stack a lot, though my clean up duty as part of the community mod effort is significantly greater than here. That broad topic attracts a lot of noise.

FWIW, that stack had some early participation by two RPG.SE mods - mxy and waxeagle- early in its life, and it has had lengthy series of community discussions on how to keep the site free from interdenominational strife. Mostly succeeds. The current mods are top notch.

David Coffron

20:13

@KorvinStarmast Thanks. Saw a name I trust so I decided I'd ask

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron I have found some really good stuff there, and a general friendliness between those of various denominations.

trogdor

20:56

@BESW how dare! how dare you sir!

XD

doppelgreener

Can you back this up with table experience that you can discuss? — NautArch 7 hours ago

@NautArch I don't think that meta's actually describing our citation standards clearly. Is there some improvement we can do to improve the standard citation expectations meta?

Transcript for

Not a bar, but plays one on TV