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12:22 AM
hello all!
hey there @CrimsonGunkitty, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)
i came to rpgse to ask stuff about dragon heist n stayed cause a lot of the q+a's are interesting
and also cause I like talking about open legend :p
Hi, glad to have you!
12:54 AM
hey thar @Helwar, how're things going?
hey @Shalvenay! Good! I'm a little sick but hanging in there
@CrimsonGunkitty I ran dragon heist a while back--glad to chat about it any time =)
@ThomasMundane This is certainly a place, and I'll vouch for the thoughtfulness and expertise and kindness of the people in the room. I will admit that rpg.net or GitP would get you a lot more eyes on a thing, if that matters.
@nitsua60 I appreciate that very much ^-^ I do have to admit, I am soft and squishy on the inside... :/ Lol
@nitsua60 Giant in the Playground?
1:09 AM
GITP is great
@ThomasMundane If you ever feel unsafe here, please let us know; we're trying to be a welcoming place but know that we don't get it right all the time!
I understand completely. Thank you for such a warm welcome :-)
It is? I have stumbled into that site quite a few times, there are a couple of guides that I use for minmaxing. (I love me some RP, but I also like to know what's what :P). Besides that when I have stumbled on the site I found much flaming and petty e-wars :/
I haven't checked GitP since I walked away from D&D years ago, but last time I was there it had a really low signal-to-noise ratio and a lot of "our reported experiences don't match so obviously you're acting on bad faith" nastiness.
@Helwar yeah, GitP is generally low on SNR. there are some strong and useful signals re: 3.x reference and optimization guidance in there, but that's about it
1:13 AM
It had a lot of great material, but was hard to dig through--both logistically and emotionally.
@Helwar signal-to-noise ratio :)
they are also a very 3.x-centric community as a whole, with some 4e floating around as well, not much 5e, and really nothing else that I know of
Yeah, a pleasant side-effect of leaving D&D was that it meant I could forget most of the online forums exist.
1:19 AM
Except you guys! [grin]
I just indoctrinacted a friend that had never played any tabletop roleplaying game. He played a one shot I DMed, then he DMed a 1-shot. Now he's bought Tomb of Annihilation
we start sunday @_@
Good job not mystifying the GM role!
I have a lot of Issues with GITP, but this series of posts is pure gold: giantitp.com/forums/…
@Helwar XD
1:21 AM
I dunno what I did, it's mostly him being the kind of guy taht jumps before knowing if there's water in the pool :P
5e question! What's good to have Expertise on? I'm proficient in Athletics, Acrobatics, Intimidation, Investigation, Stealth and Sleight of hand. I'm a rogue. I guess Stealth is a given, but then I'm torn between Perception (hard to surprise me!), Investigation (find traps!), and Sleight of Hand (disarm traps?).
Get expertise on your class level
So you're at least +2 levels ahead, and eventually a level 26 rogue
oh it's thieves tools to disarm, not sleight of hand. I can cross that one from the list then
What kind of campaign is it? Dungeon diving? Wilderness? Dating si Intrigue?
I wish it was a Dating Simulator, could be fun
Tomb of Annihilation
didn't want to look into the book to not spoil myself, but given the hook and the name I expect ancient traps galore
I wouldn't want to play a dating sim in 5e
That would just be torture
1:33 AM
@MarkWells I wonder if how much my "they've got some good stuff over there" impression of GitP is influenced by the fact that I've probably only ever read threads there that were linked here =)
@nitsua60 yeah, that filters out most of the noise I reckon XD
@Helwar Trog and I are currently in a ToA game run by @nitsua60, who would have a better answer for you, I'd say it really depends on how your DM lets you approach challenges
@nitsua60 There's good stuff there ^^ Also a lot of rabble :P
@MikeQ With a Noob DM? I have no idea. I guess he will be very much by the book. I also don't want to be challenging him every step :P
@Helwar lulz :P
Noob DM could mean a lot of things. For instance, if they're the type of DM who insists you make Perception rolls at every step, then you'd want high Perception
1:36 AM
@MikeQ I think I'm "kinda" in that game :P I got access to the DND beyond campaign ^^
@Helwar With a new GM and that book I would just advise that you're very explicit with them about what parts interest you/don't, where you think you're going next. "That rumour we heard about $foo to the southeast sounds interesting, I think we probably want to start heading there and hope we don't run into too much $bar-foolery along the way."
That's because the first half (or so) is very wide open, so it's a lot to keep in one's head if they're trying to stay a step or two ahead of a group that's all over the map. (Literally.)
Yeah, that's what I meant by not challenging him. I'm too used to think "out of the box" because my players force me. I'll try to play "within the box" at least until he's more used t oit
@nitsua60 I see how it is, XP
Alrighty, just finished formatting with homebrewery ^_^ homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/edit/HyfzX-otu4
you know, if you're bored... ^-^
@trogdor I had already both played and run it before you-all, so I was pretty happy with you-all trying anything.
(spoiler, on the other hand: not at all happy with you.)
1:42 AM
Shh no spoilers in chat
Forget it
You are getting veeery sleepy
You will now forget allllll minor TOA spoilers
@ThomasMundane First thought (one paragraph in): "this is an entire class built on a premise that will slow down the game."
I saw what was written there. DIdn't mean jack to me. SOoooo don't feel spoiled at all?
1:45 AM
That may be not at all what it ends up being, but my gut impression was counterspells and removing buffs....
@ThomasMundane The primary class features involve too-high DCs, which will scale fast. It's running into the Truenamer problem.
Oh, I'm also realizing now that I hit the class skills: this is a class for a system I've never played. Shutting up, now!
@nitsua60 Oh I apologize, this is for Pathfinder >.<
No worries =)
but @MikeQ Truenamer problem?
1:47 AM
@Helwar yeah it's not even a huge spoiler if you know
wo it's a 3.5 class? long time no see
@nitsua60 That is the gist of it though. A class that will counter combat magic, be able to disarm magical barriers and traps, etc
@ThomasMundane It was a 3.5 class... basically its main gimmick involved a DC that scaled superlinearly with the class, so the check got harder as you leveled up, which meant the class got less reliable
@Helwar Thieves' tools are for lockpicking as well, which I've always found much more useful than disarming traps.
Your "Counter Spell Casting" feature is like that - It requires a readied action, plus a skill check with a <50% chance of success, until maybe higher levels if the character optimizes their spellcraft skill
1:49 AM
@Miniman I have thieves tools just for the virtue of being a rogue so... All's fine?
@Helwar I meant as a candidate for expertise.
you can expertise thief tools?
Ah, I see I see. @MikeQ I did build a level 5 character with it, maxing out skill points in spellcraft to identify and using a feat for skill focus, so even with an int bonus of zero was rocking a +13 mod
@Helwar Yep, the rogue's expertise feature mentions them explicitly.
HUh, I didn't see the option in DND Beyond
1:52 AM
...no comment.
And the way I designed the class was that there's no opposed counter spell check as with a dispel check, so really all you have to worry about is being able to identify the correct spell level being cast.
oh yeah it's there! I'm blind. Thanks @Miniman!
@nitsua60 @MikeQ I appreciate your feedback! ^_^
@ThomasMundane Have you considered changing it from a readied action to an immediate action?
@Helwar Is it bad that I'm a little disappointed that it wasn't a deficiency in D&DB?
1:56 AM
@MikeQ It gains the ability to do so once a day at level 6 and gets an additional usage every 3 levels after that. I figured if they could always do it... That'd be super obnoxious and OP out of the gate
@Miniman Bad? NO. Curious? A whole lot
@ThomasMundane Ok, I'm just confused about: "As a readied action whenever a spell or spell like ability is being cast"
How would the player/character know in advance to expect a spell? Are they expected to ready an action on every turn?
@MikeQ they would have to weigh the cost of holding their action to counter spell a magic caster or attempting to seal them with suppression strike
@ThomasMundane please don't reinvent the Truenamer....
@MikeQ IIRC they assumed you just were doing nothing but wait for the other to cast a spell so you could mess with it
1:59 AM
@MikeQ Note: this is why no-one ever uses the existing counterspell mechanics in 3.5. I can't speak for Pathfinder, but I suspect it's the same.
@Miniman it is EXACTLY like that. . . lol
@Miniman I have used counterspell precisely once in pathfinder. A mage bodyguard of a boss against the party wizard.
But I felt that if they could always use their AoO to use counter spell it became too OP of a class. In Effect, you become a middle grade warrior class that can shut down all casters on the field just by taking combat reflexes
But yes, the mechanic is stupid and if no spell happens you waste your turn
I wanted to make a class that... didn't make countering magic suck? lol
2:03 AM
@ThomasMundane There's a difference between an AoO and an immediate action - Combat Reflexes won't let you use multiple immediate actions in a round.
@ThomasMundane Make "Counterspell" a higher level spell slot. Similar to Dispel Magic in 5e
@ThomasMundane A neat idea, although it's maybe too-focused for a full class. Why not make it a feat, or higher level spell, that uses an immediate action?
@Miniman can players only take one immediate action in a round?
@ThomasMundane In Pathfinder, yes
@linksassin so do you mean like, as a wizard, make the counter spell a higher level spell?
@MikeQ I gotcha, I can dig it :-)
2:06 AM
The wizard in my party has a +18 to spellcraft and still doesn't bother trying to counterspell anything. The off chance that an enemy caster has the same spell as he knows it so low.
@ThomasMundane One immediate or swift action per round.
Random idea. The class feels like a Blue MTG deck (the kind I hate, the kind that's based on: You DON'T play, I do). Instead of all counters, maybe you can make some "boomerangs" too? I mean, instead of canceling the spell and the objective loses the slot, it's as if it never happened and can try again touse the same spell slot (On a later turn)
@ThomasMundane Ah, turns out paizo had this idea already with Arcanist. So maybe it could be a Feat (requires Dispel magic and some spellcraft ranks) to counterspell as an immediate action, with some penalty on the dispel check.
just a random idea, makes counter LESS obnoxious and you can have the reaction thing without making it super OP
Ooh, I do like that. That makes a lot of sense @MikeQ
2:08 AM
@Helwar Wait, you mean play a blue deck and don't annoy your opponent with bounces and counterspells? Impossible!
@Helwar i can dig it too. that's a good thought :-P
There is the counterspell replacement powers for a abjuration wizard too
At 6th level you can counterspell with improved counterspell fas an immediate action 1/day
Those two were actually very much the basis for the class as a whole, archanist and abjuration counter spell wizard
@MikeQ I mean. I see the appeal. But when you have a friend that's too much of a fan of Isochronos Scepter + Boomerang and you can't even get lands on the table, you tell me how fun is it
Alright all y'all I'm outta here for the day. thank you very much for the input! I appreciate it very much ^_^
2:14 AM
a belated good night to @ThomasMundane :)
@ThomasMundane Keep up the creative ideas! Pathfinder's a really complicated game, so it's hard to make homebrew ideas that jive with the rest of the system
(Heck, even the designers struggle with it sometimes)
2:35 AM
@Helwar You can counter a blue deck with your own blue deck, built around countering
@MikeQ yeah, some of my friends have gone that route
it's fun when we multiplayer and we have to keep track of the counter that counters the counter that countered the counter that was countering my puny Kithkin creature
@Helwar A friend once made a custom blue instant with the effect: "Remove the stack from the game."
When I noted that it could be counterspelled, he smiled and said that was the point
Man I've been really unlucky recently answering questions that are dupes :-/
I got a few cards with split... splitsomething. That don't let you add anything to the stack so it's uncounter-able
And by unlucky I mean for some reason keep answering before checking. Usually my dupe sense goes off.
2:43 AM
@Helwar Mix that with the right blue cards, and you've got yourself a fork bomb, which last time I checked, would force the game into a stalemate
@Rubiksmoose Maybe you powers are going off. Spiderman got that too... He went to the F4 for help and they gave him more juice... HE passed a fase where he was actually mutating into a spider but he's good now. It's definitively worth a check
I'll stop in for my yearly meta human physical really to have that checked out lol
Just don't google the symptoms or you'll get hypochondriac
(I murdered that word)
@Helwar Anyway, you may want to have a session-zero-ish discussion with your new DM pal, so they know what to expect from players, and the players know what to expect from them
2:48 AM
taht's gonna be fun
Example: Railroading is often seen as "bad" by experienced DMs, but for a novice DM who doesn't improvise well, it can be useful if the players agree to it
@MikeQ it really depends what's meant by "railroading" and how railroad-y it is
if it's something like Hoard of the Dragon Queen, it basically just requires player buy-in and understanding to make a character that's willing to accept such an adventure
we have someone that has played Neverwinter Nights so "knows the rules, mostly", and my friend's uncle owned 2e but never played. All the others are totally new to the idea. I was practically rules lawyering and giving counsel to my friend all the time while he DM-ed the one shot. Some of them were into roleplaying, others wanted to kill everything my friend described...
I'ts gonna be fun
if it's the DM literally refusing to allow player actions to have any impact on the story at all... more of a problem then
Yes, true, I should have clarified that. Railroad style storywriting, perhaps
"Here's a dungeon. There are monsters inside. Go in it."
2:53 AM
@V2Blast Well, AFAIK, ToA is quite open in the begining. I would expect an honest: Guys, there is nothing in the book about assaulting the old ruin, so I'm not confortable just making it up. Could you pick any other available option?
@Helwar ToA's quite open in terms of choices of where to go, but almost all the named locations they can find out about have at least some description in the book
but yeah
The only thing that worries me is that all are newbies and none know this is a time commitment, and that you have to take a step back and let others have fun. Not that they are bad, just new. It's a lot of different people.
ToA is designed as a full adventure, levels 1-11. If long-term time commitment is a risk, maybe start with a shorter campaign?
I mean, half the group won't have the Character Sheet done by the day. They say they will but my friend knows them and doesn't believe so. They had two weeks and some don't even know what they want to play. And I did a 3 pages table with short descriptions of every available race and class, with links to pictures and the page number. SO it's not like they HAD to open the book to know if they fancied one class or race.
@MikeQ I tried to convince my friend but he just bought the book and went with it anyway. Sadly is the only campaign available in Spanish. I offered to translate Phandelver to him (I already DMed it twice but I know how to step back and not metagame), but he just went with ToA anyway
also the only 2 people that know ANYTHING about the game have picked the easiest to play classes, and the two taht I found where LEAST interested wanted to be Sorcerer and Druid. I convinced the Druid to change and she's now a Warlock at least...
It's gonna be fun ^^
3:08 AM
Actually, cleric and druid aren't bad choices for new or uninvested players. Prepared divine casters don't really require pre-planning the character build. If they're dissatisfied with their spell selection, they can swap spells fairly easily.
good luck! :D
Druid easy? you have to manage all spells in the book and have access to all animals?
Cleric i'd say yeah... If they don't pretend to be a frontliner
@Helwar For a long-term campaign, yes, because unlike spontaneous casters, the build is flexible. Even if they don't consider all the animal options, they have the ability to choose new ones.
Yeah well, you and me can. One of my regulars started with Druid, and she was flaberghasted every time it was her turn because she had so many things she could do, and scared of doing anything different. Up until now her druid seems to know Cure Wounds, Produce Flame, Moonbeam, and can transform into a Bear or a specific dinosaur I don't remember the name of.
@Helwar yeah, frontlining as a cleric takes a bit of realization of one's limits, more so than with other classes (I do it on a regular basis, but that's partly me and partly me knowing more about the game)
3:12 AM
she has AAAAAAAAALL the options but she lets herself be driven around by the others because she's overwhelmed. Not even ONCE has she thought about using her animal shape for anything other than soak damage
@Helwar have they gotten to picking out a guide yet?
@Helwar That's often a sign the player feels pressured to make optimal decisions. You can reduce the pressure by framing their turn as "What do you want to do?" instead of "What is the correct thing to do?"
@Shalvenay What do you mean?
@Helwar oh, your ToA campaign isn't at that point yet, sorry :)
@Shalvenay My ToA campaign hasn't started and I'm a player there. I was talking about my homebrew game :)
3:15 AM
@MikeQ I wouldn't suggest Druid to new players. It has taken months for my wife to come to terms with all her abilities. Far too complex for a brand new player than is only semi-interested.
Ah, the learning curve. Good point.
@Helwar oh :)
@linksassin yeah, Druid is a bit more complicated than most other classes
@MikeQ Oh yeah, I don't think I'm pressuring her at all. Most that I've done is ask the other players to not say anything during her turn. Because then she just does what her husband says and doesn't think about it. I think if that she's forced to think for herself it will change how she sees the game. Also I've told her a million times, any choice is better than just Moonbeaming everything with a lvl 9 Druid...
@linksassin Exactly what I meant.
@Helwar to be fair, moonbeaming and wild shape is a pretty solid combat tactic. I use that a lot with my druid.
Moonbeam: What if a tyrannosaurus rex had its own Death Star laser?
3:23 AM
@Helwar Sometimes players just aren't comfortable being put on the spot. I've got a bard in my party that can barely make a decision for themselves and barely talks to NPCs because she's scared of doing something wrong.
I was gonna write another essay. Let's just say she feels flaberghasted every time it's her turn, and most of it is because she has a miriad options and too many inputs :P
I've tried talking to her about it but it doesn't help much.
same issue then
at least my player always says that she's having fun and enjoying the story
it sure doesn't look like she's having fun from where I am, buuut...
Yeah mine seems to enjoy the story I just don't get a lot out of her during play.
For some players the learning curve/confidence comes a lot slower. Give them time.
If talking to the player OOG about it doesn't help, and they still feel pressured to make strictly optimal choices, then you could consider finding ways to reward suboptimal choices
3:26 AM
I help her by giving her a reduced set of options sometimes rather than an open ended list. It helps keep the game going and reduces their stress from holding up the game.
That can also work! There's a question here somewhere about more helpful alternatives to saying "It's your turn, what do you do" by providing constraints
@MikeQ It's less about optimal choice than making any choice. They freeze up a lot.
I've started giving them a warning 2-3 turns before theirs to give them time to think
@linksassin like instead of: "It's your turn, what do you wanna do?", you say "It's your turn. You could pull the lever and fill the canal with water, or let that to your friend and try to heal the Barbarian, or maybe cast an area spell now that the enemies are all together in a choke point"
something like that?
I also remind them of all their abilities when they seem to struggle
btw @linksassin, on a different note, may you can help me address one of my concerns/quasi-fears with going out on a limb to play with/run for groups that I don't know?
3:29 AM
@Helwar Basically, remember to add "or you can do something else if you can think of another useful option." To encourage them to continue to think.
@Helwar Sort of like that. I think this is the question & answer I was referring to.
@Shalvenay Sure, what can I do?
@linksassin I have a pole with clothes pins with their names and enemies to keep intiative, and I do the full nurse rollcall every now and then (barbarian goes, after it's the warlock, you go after her)
@linksassin basically, one of my concerns when playing with folks who I haven't played with before, and a major concern for me when seeking out new horizons/communities, is "will they respond well to trope-subversion, or are they going to be traditionalists/lore-sticklers who go 'no, stop trying to be a special snowflake/edgelord' at it?"
@Shalvenay Hmmm.. that's difficult to answer. I can see the concern but I think the issue will be different for different groups.
3:34 AM
@linksassin because I've had abrasive/prickly encounters with that sort of thing in the past, and they can be very hard to deal with
@Shalvenay I'm not @linksassin but that feels like session 0 material. Isn't it? You sit with the group and set expectations, listen to what they want and consider if it's something you can add to what you want to run or you tell them you don't like to run like that. You can always compromise if you want.
Hard question. Ideally I'd advise asking in advance if a character concept is okay with the group, but that isn't always feasible or reliable
Generally it should come down to getting a solid session 0 in I would think. Make sure you're on the same page about the world you are playing in.
@Helwar yeah, but sometimes it's broader than what a session 0 can address
@Shalvenay It's also hard to answer for a general case. Some troupe-subversion will be fine, others might not
The orc's are really evil subversion is pretty easy to sell like the transcript you showed me.
In general the "unexpected good-guy" should be doable and isn't something I would be concerned about bringing into a game with strangers
But I imagine some troupes are harder to introduce without resistance, can you provide an example of a bad situation?
3:37 AM
@linksassin what tropes would you be concerned about then?
one of the lore-pricklers I ran into was someone who insisted you couldn't bring a summoned fire elemental into a wooden building without burning the place down
@Shalvenay How did the DM adjudicate it?
1) wood does not ignite that readily 2) fire elementals don't have Combust listed for them in the SRD (unlike Magmins, who do)
@MikeQ this was another player harping on me, not the DM
@Shalvenay "Fire elementals in my universe have control over the fire they create, this one is tame and doesn't want to destroy everything."
Hum, as an amateur writer all I can say about tropes is that using them is not the problem. As long as the narrative you build is good, tropes are there to be used and exploited, directly or subverting them. I think it would be very difficult to have a plot that has no tropes whatsoever...
@linksassin hehehe, that's how I think, and it's something that has backing in D&D 3.x (as I mentioned re: the SRD for fire elementals not listing Combust as an ability on them)
3:39 AM
The important bit is "in my universe" make sure that they understand they are playing in your world and things work how you say they do
@linksassin yeah, when it's a player-to-player conflict over something that is being tacitly allowed but not explicitly ruled upon, it's a fair bit harder
@Shalvenay It's always easier said than done isn't it?
@linksassin yes
@Shalvenay I think the troupe sub-versions I would be concerned about would be ones that you can't readily explain.
@linksassin as to my question re: tropes I probably should be more concerned about groups getting prickly about? (and I also am concerned about this as a player -- I tend to like trope-subversive PCs as well as being a trope-subversive DM)
3:42 AM
Technically this isn't a trope subversion issue, and is more of an issue where players have conflicting preconceptions about the game world
@MikeQ that is true, yes
If fire-elementals not starting fires is an issue you need to be able to explain why
If you want to say "goblin's in this world can fly" you need to know how and why. Or the players won't accept it
@MikeQ exactly what I thought
@MikeQ Nailed it, if you are going outside ideas of the world it breaks immersion. @Shalvenay You need to establish the 'norms' for your world early.
In writing this is referred to as 'buy in' or 'contract with the reader'
I reckon that the question from the player side is "how do I avoid getting treated as a 'special snowflake' or 'edgelord' for making PCs that subvert generally accepted fantasy tropes?"
3:46 AM
It depends? I'm not sure what in particular a "snowflake" entails in a D&D context, but there are plenty of edgelords among the genre's tropes
@Shalvenay Hum. Basically everyone is Drizzt? :) Well I solved it making them decide the caracters they were playing together. They kept themselves in check when they noticed everyone was a snowflake and there wasn't a single one of them that wasn't trying to take it up a few notches at a time :P
Generally, subverting a trope is only problematic if 1. the audience feels strongly about upholding that trope, and/or 2. the subversion is implemented in a problematic way
I answered a question on writing.se about getting multiple buy-ins which is somewhat related from a DM side. You need to set up the world and the associated expectation early.
For example, if the DM or players have very rigid beliefs about how paladins should and must behave, then a trope-subverting paladin could be problematic in that particular group, even if the character is not inherently problematic
@Helwar basically, how do I avoid getting tarred with that brush if I'm playing a character that doesn't fit the generally-accepted-rules-of-the-land if you will (good example: the Gnoll that roams around my standing stable of PCs -- she's a LN monk/cleric of St. Cuthbert, raised from a kit by a monastery in the City of Dyvers in Greyhawk in her original campaign)
@MikeQ yes, this. I could see where Jherala actually would raise hackles among some folks of that persuasion simply from being a Paladin/Warlock MC
3:50 AM
@Shalvenay I feel veeeeeery lost
Then unfortunately that often depends on who sets the rules of that game universe
@Shalvenay Not much you can do about that type of player other than not play with them. Some people get uptight about you "having fun wrong". I play a Drow Druid and a Human Rogue that just really wants to help people.
For example, the group in our one-shot had no issue with T'Kharr being a gnoll monk/cleric, because I didn't assume, establish, or enforce any particular rules about how gnolls within the game's setting, even though we said it took place in Baldur's Gate
@Helwar basically, Gnolls are treated as pretty much always-CE by and large, even more so than most other monstrous races (for ex. Volo's doesn't even talk about them)
We had a Gnoll PC in the party with my Drow. No issues.
3:52 AM
@MikeQ right :) and us as players understood that as well
Not using pre-existing settings might help, it lets you have a lot more flexibility with races.
I've learned that, when running games, it helps to establish what is and isn't the lore of your game's setting. Which is problematic when the players want to use familiar settings.
@Shalvenay Well there is a reason for that in-lore. In-lore they are created by a demon and are practically demons themselves that can only feel 2 things: Everlasting hunger and rage. Pretty difficult to be anything but CE ^^ But maybe in your world Gnolls are only another kind of beastmen, then they can be whatever
@linksassin no doubt! I generally don't import pre-existing settings wholesale partly for that reason
I prefer custom settings for many reasons, chief among them that it gives us more room to push things in the directions that will be most interesting.
3:55 AM
I'm very strict about players not importing issues that are established in some out-of-campaign lore. Going forward, I think I'll try the "superhero multiverse reboot" approach, where I pick an established setting for the general feel, and then rewrite with my own rules and history.
@linksassin The character I'm making now is a rogue, a noble that didn't want to partake in the family business (war) and was sent to the military to straigthen him up, and ended up being in an infiltration team that saw mostly 0 combat, and he likes it like that. He's not a thief, nor a burglar.
@Helwar XD.
@linksassin the latter character reminds me of say LockPickingLawyer or BosnianBill XD
@BESW me too :) Also, one of my players is like the Forgotten Realms Loremaster. If I play in Toril he's gonna be constantly irritated when I get things wrong (he never says, but I can tell :P)
@Helwar Mine was a folk hero, she stole some weapons to help fight an oppressive tyrant and accidentally started a fight they couldn't win. She only steal/kills to try to improve the lives of others. Neutral Good but deeply flawed.
@Helwar I once re-skinned every creature, place, and culture that hit the table for a year-long D&D campaign so that everyone else would be pleasantly surprised. Now I can do that but be pleasantly surprised myself, too!
3:58 AM
@BESW How do you surprise yourself? haha
@Shalvenay LPL is great. You just gave me a concept for the next rogue... lockpicking for the sake of picking the lock not for the treasure behind it...
@Helwar By using systems and techniques that let the players help improvise the world too.
@linksassin yes XD I have a LG half-orc rogue/ranger who's basically a part-time locksmith/town-scout/misc. crafter
When everyone's collaborating to improvise the setting, everyone also gets to be surprised by what emerges from the synthesis.
oh I get it
4:00 AM
@Helwar if you are me, you just let your terrible memory do the trick. (I have a notoriously bad recall memory. Like to the point where friends and loves have apparently told me gifts they got me but when I actually got them, I was completely surprised)
Lady Blackbird's GMing advice is key.
@Shalvenay Re: Groups potentially rejecting character ideas - Another technique I use is to start with maybe 2-3 character concepts, then suggest multiple, and asking which the group prefers more.
@BESW I let my players define the culture and social structure of their race rather than using the existing descriptions from the PHB, they take the stats and then make up a new world around it.
@MikeQ yeah, that can be a good thing :)
@BESW Oh I remember you linked that to me once. I tried to convince my players to try it. Sadly most of them are more interested in the minmaxing and murderhoboing so a Roleplaying based game wasn't their cup of tea
4:02 AM
@linksassin I'm imagining them getting like some random box with nothing in and everyone being super disappointed at the lack of good loot, and the rogue just being like "but did you see how that lock was put together, the way the tumblers moved like poetry"
@linksassin Or spin it as a lore idea: The "thieves guild" is just what the locksmith guild calls themselves.
@Ash "Guys, the jail in this town has a reputation for super difficult locks. Barbarian can you beat up that guy and get us arrested so I can try them?"
Ask leading questions about what's going on, rather than telling them.
@linksassin Break into the jail, steal the lock
It's especially easy to roll into a D&D-like game by, say, asking them to describe what they learned from a Knowledge or Perception roll.
4:04 AM
@linksassin haha exactly!
@BESW My first DM loved that. "What did you learn from examining the crystal? Where had you seen one before?"
Guys, this what kind of trait would be? (5e background traits) "I hate gods and religions, they are just there to control people's lives. But I do envy those with real faith". Is this just a Character Trait? Or can it be an Ideal? (I always struggle coming with these...)
@Shalvenay Specifically, I have a queue of maybe 3+ different character concepts, some of which are more stereotypical than others. Usually I reserve the more unconventional ideas for familiar player/DM groups.
@Helwar It sounds more like a generic character trait. Though you can make the first part into an ideal. "Religions only exist to control the masses" would be an ideal. "I envy those with real faith" could be a flaw or a trait.
ok, divide it into two, gotcha
4:11 AM
@Helwar You don't have to though. Background traits and more of a guideline in creating multi-dimensional characters. You can just make it a trait if you want to.
ok, I mean, the character is pretty solid in my head. I just struggle to put it into words and fit it in the boxes
I wouldn't stress about getting it into the boxes. Unless your DM is super strict on it it won't matter
@MikeQ nods
I only use the traits when the player doesn't know much about the character
@Shalvenay How do you do character creation for these sessions? I do creation at the table as a group so everyone gets input to each others character before the campaign starts.
@linksassin it's usually more of an individual process -- I think group creation could help for such things
4:15 AM
the DM is asking it of everyone, to force everyone to at least think a little about their character, so I'm gonna do it as well. It isn't directed at me... I'm a RPer first and foremost, but still :P
@Helwar You could easily make that a trait and come up with other ideals or flaws. We I have been forced to do it I tend to fill the box rather than come up with something and try to fit it into a box
Or if you used a standard background check the random tables for ideas
true enough
@BESW My players once found your standard dusty old tomb with blasphemous demon idol in the corner, and one of them rolled really well on his Religion check to recognize it, and I said "Yes! You do! Tell me all about it."
@MarkWells My players would just say the first obscene thing or meme that crossed their mind. ^^
They spent the next hour and a half coming up with lore about this cult and rituals they could do involving the idol. It was glorious.
4:22 AM
@MarkWells Sit back and watch your world build itself
Hmm... what's a good Officer Rank for a spy soldier? My Background is Soldier so I need (and want) that officer rank but I'm clueless about them and dunno what would be "good", meaning not just a lowly no-body that has absolutely 0 leniency, nor an Admiral that can control armies. Something low-to-mid tier would be good?
@Helwar Well, I've also had a player in a similar situation decide that Miley Cyrus exists in the setting and is their character's cousin.
@Helwar Ranks and their meaning vary from army to army and will be different depending on race or settings.
That said Sergeant is a pretty decent option for lead a small team
@linksassin the answer I was afraid I would get. Ultimately I'll have to talk it with my DM but I wanted to suggest him something reasonable, so hecan take it if he wants and not give him more work
Lieutenant is one step up from there and Captain yet another.
@Helwar As the other conversation in this thread has been talking about your DM will probably be happy for you to define what the structure of that army is. It saves them work and gives you a cool insight into worldbuilding.
4:33 AM
@MarkWells This is why it's important to set mutual expectations about the nature of the game.
@Helwar "Captain" suggests a leader, while leaving the exact scale of their command ambiguous. Captain Kirk has a starship, Captain America has like ten guys.
We're currently live streaming a Q&A session for our D&D 5e actual-play podcast (we're missing a few players tonight), Planeslip: Echoes of Creation: https://www.twitch.tv/events/VZwwDCGeQxuKvrgjKfC4tg

Plot summary:
In a universe adjacent to our own lies a world known as Runia. This world, once peaceful and idyllic, is now threatened by a monstrous being from its prehistory. A group of adventurers known as Whiskey Company have risen up to do what they can to fight this entity known only as Nagat. They have trekked far across the mortal realms in search of the shards of Barrinoth, the Titan
come ask us questions!
@Helwar In a fantasy setting the ranks and roles in an army could be entirely fictional words as well. 'Spell-weaver' isn't a rank in a real army but could be for the Elves.
@linksassin Exactly what I thought. I'm glad someone else agrees with the idea.
True enough, for the moment I settled on Liutenant given as my character has been forcibly discharged 'cause his noble family interceded to do so, maybe he got a raise paired with that discharge. Reason of the forced discharge is his older brother is sick with the Curse (in ToA) so that's one reason my pc wants to fix that. He doesn't want to be the heir at all :P
@Helwar Basically decide how much responsibility your character had and pick a word for it. That's what that word means now. Remember that if you are starting at level 1 you are unlikely to a veteran of 1000 battles. Failed recruits, deserters or the army being disbanded not long after you signed up are good explanations.
@Helwar Ignore my last point, you already have a good reason for discharge, nice concept.
4:38 AM
@linksassin Sure! That's why my backstory while long, it doesn't have him slaying armies :P Basically he was a courier for a few years, then got picked up for infiltration. Seen almost no combat :)
Is he wearing leather armor over bare skin?
@MikeQ Fantasy armor... It's great for your complexion
mostly... There's a tank top there but It's mostly invisible
because I don't draw that well :P
And remember; sleeves are bullshit.
4:44 AM
But if you have no sleeves, then where do you hide your tricks?
but that was a choice not an oversight :). First concept he had a too-big shirt under there that bulged around the non armored parts
but since we are going to the jungle I thought that eventually the character would be fed up with so many clothes so.... just a tank top under the armor /shrugs/
@MikeQ More importantly, where do you keep your armies?
@BESW Garrisoned in one place, twiddling their thumbs until the heroes inevitably show up and defeat them.
Everyone is concerned about a blond rogue, like it is a travestry or something :P
You have a rogue going into a tropical jungle, infested with bugs and poison ivy and regional bacteria, and leather armor that will probably cause more rashes when damp, and they're worried about hair color?
4:49 AM
yeah hahaha. Everyone says that I would be seen a mile away. Like.... Cloaks exist, but it's ok...
Also, noone would bat an eye if it was a female with neon pink hair and a leather-bikini-armor, i'm 100% sure
I said cloaks, I meant hoods. But you know what I mean
If you really need to stealth in the jungle, just assemble a gillie suit. Then wear it all the time. In combat. In cities. Wear it to sleep.
That looks itchy
I just bought a 2 sided cloak with a green-brown pattern on one side and a dark navy blue on the other... Will have to suffice :P
come watch our stream and ask us questions
@Helwar lol, it can't be worse than heavy armor
@trogdor I guess they picture my character breaking into enemy camp with his hair uncovered... Wich has an easy fix! Hoods!
4:55 AM
@BESW By the way, I had a question for you regarding FATE games. If I wanted to re-skin a module with a different genre and style of play, what are some pitfalls to expect? You had mentioned a while ago some issue with players having different expectations about the setting's rules.
I just feel like focusing on hair color is a little Silly in a game with full plate and chainmail that clanks extremely loudly
@V2Blast I'm "IN" the stream, doing too many things to pay attention all the time. And someone has suuuuuuuuper heavy echo
@trogdor Sure. I think everyone thinks of rogues as dark haired unconspicuous people, and it clashes with their vision of it?
thanks for the heads up
@Helwar I guess so, it's just a weird thing to worry about in my opinion
@Helwar Why would people make this assumption?
4:58 AM
@trogdor I don't, everyone else does
@Helwar yeah, but they shouldn't I think XD
If anything, rogues would have really noticeable hair. Like a rainbow spiked mohawk. That way, nobody would suspect them of being sneaky.
@MikeQ Popular media? I mean, I see where they come from. In the middle of the night a blonde mop of hair would reflect more light than dark hair. Buuuut... Still, I guess most media paint's rogues like that. I can't think of a blond male rogue of the top of my head
@MikeQ Lol
@MikeQ hahaha
5:00 AM
Ever see Princess Bride? The main character was a swashbuckly rogue type. Blonde.
@MikeQ as you wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiish
@MikeQ Iñigo Montoya thingy?
@Helwar Same movie, different character.
I tried to watch it a couple of times, I end up turning it of after a few minutes
I bought a character sheet template the other day, I just put it to use: prntscr.com/n3ydrq
@MikeQ what a 'stache :P
@Helwar que elegante
5:05 AM
Thanks haha, I just bought it, didn't create it. Saw it on reddit a few days ago and it was 2.5 USD... And thought why not
well, it's 6Am here
i'm gonna go to sleep -_-
thank you all for the chat and the advice :)
@Helwar Damn that's cool. Now my character sheets feel inadequate
I bought it here: https://shoptly.com/eltesorodeldragon

Not mine!!! I'm not plugging my shit!
well, as said, I'll take my leave, see ya!
@MikeQ I'm heading out now, will think about it. Got details? As a broad question the answer is "re-skinning is not a concept that works with Fate because it's assigning new narrative to the same mechanics while Fate is rooted in assigning mechanics based on narrative."
5:15 AM
@BESW Re: Uranium Chef, some potential players have objected to the 1. scifi genre and 2. competitive play. I suggested editing it as cooperative wizard chefs in a relatively familiar fantasy setting, and got some positive feedback on the idea.
5:29 AM
I like the idea! I think the big hiccough might be moving from competition to cooperation, but I'd have to read UC again to point at where.
I do heartily approve of a group that wants to be more cooperative.
@Helwar Insert constipation joke here
@BESW There's at least one scene in which some PCs can be teamed up with some other PCs, but it's possible (or assumed) there are PCs on both sides. I figured maybe instead, I could have all the PCs on one side, and either an enemy team or a multi-headed opponent that gets multiple turns.
Pardon the puerility on my part
@kviiri I think we can forgive you. You weren't the only one thinking it
The ability to forgive is a great treasure
5:53 AM
@Helwar For the record, we're fine with people linking to their own products so long as they disclose their affiliation and it actually makes sense in context as a helpful thing to do.
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