@CrimsonGunkitty I ran dragon heist a while back--glad to chat about it any time =)
@ThomasMundane This is certainly a place, and I'll vouch for the thoughtfulness and expertise and kindness of the people in the room. I will admit that rpg.net or GitP would get you a lot more eyes on a thing, if that matters.
@ThomasMundane If you ever feel unsafe here, please let us know; we're trying to be a welcoming place but know that we don't get it right all the time!
It is? I have stumbled into that site quite a few times, there are a couple of guides that I use for minmaxing. (I love me some RP, but I also like to know what's what :P). Besides that when I have stumbled on the site I found much flaming and petty e-wars :/
I haven't checked GitP since I walked away from D&D years ago, but last time I was there it had a really low signal-to-noise ratio and a lot of "our reported experiences don't match so obviously you're acting on bad faith" nastiness.
@Helwar yeah, GitP is generally low on SNR. there are some strong and useful signals re: 3.x reference and optimization guidance in there, but that's about it
I just indoctrinacted a friend that had never played any tabletop roleplaying game. He played a one shot I DMed, then he DMed a 1-shot. Now he's bought Tomb of Annihilation
I dunno what I did, it's mostly him being the kind of guy taht jumps before knowing if there's water in the pool :P
5e question! What's good to have Expertise on? I'm proficient in Athletics, Acrobatics, Intimidation, Investigation, Stealth and Sleight of hand. I'm a rogue. I guess Stealth is a given, but then I'm torn between Perception (hard to surprise me!), Investigation (find traps!), and Sleight of Hand (disarm traps?).
@MarkWells I wonder if how much my "they've got some good stuff over there" impression of GitP is influenced by the fact that I've probably only ever read threads there that were linked here =)
@Helwar Trog and I are currently in a ToA game run by @nitsua60, who would have a better answer for you, I'd say it really depends on how your DM lets you approach challenges
Noob DM could mean a lot of things. For instance, if they're the type of DM who insists you make Perception rolls at every step, then you'd want high Perception
@Helwar With a new GM and that book I would just advise that you're very explicit with them about what parts interest you/don't, where you think you're going next. "That rumour we heard about $foo to the southeast sounds interesting, I think we probably want to start heading there and hope we don't run into too much $bar-foolery along the way."
That's because the first half (or so) is very wide open, so it's a lot to keep in one's head if they're trying to stay a step or two ahead of a group that's all over the map. (Literally.)
Yeah, that's what I meant by not challenging him. I'm too used to think "out of the box" because my players force me. I'll try to play "within the box" at least until he's more used t oit
@ThomasMundane It was a 3.5 class... basically its main gimmick involved a DC that scaled superlinearly with the class, so the check got harder as you leveled up, which meant the class got less reliable
Your "Counter Spell Casting" feature is like that - It requires a readied action, plus a skill check with a <50% chance of success, until maybe higher levels if the character optimizes their spellcraft skill
Ah, I see I see. @MikeQ I did build a level 5 character with it, maxing out skill points in spellcraft to identify and using a feat for skill focus, so even with an int bonus of zero was rocking a +13 mod
And the way I designed the class was that there's no opposed counter spell check as with a dispel check, so really all you have to worry about is being able to identify the correct spell level being cast.
@MikeQ It gains the ability to do so once a day at level 6 and gets an additional usage every 3 levels after that. I figured if they could always do it... That'd be super obnoxious and OP out of the gate
But I felt that if they could always use their AoO to use counter spell it became too OP of a class. In Effect, you become a middle grade warrior class that can shut down all casters on the field just by taking combat reflexes
@ThomasMundane A neat idea, although it's maybe too-focused for a full class. Why not make it a feat, or higher level spell, that uses an immediate action?
The wizard in my party has a +18 to spellcraft and still doesn't bother trying to counterspell anything. The off chance that an enemy caster has the same spell as he knows it so low.
Random idea. The class feels like a Blue MTG deck (the kind I hate, the kind that's based on: You DON'T play, I do). Instead of all counters, maybe you can make some "boomerangs" too? I mean, instead of canceling the spell and the objective loses the slot, it's as if it never happened and can try again touse the same spell slot (On a later turn)
@ThomasMundane Ah, turns out paizo had this idea already with Arcanist. So maybe it could be a Feat (requires Dispel magic and some spellcraft ranks) to counterspell as an immediate action, with some penalty on the dispel check.
@MikeQ I mean. I see the appeal. But when you have a friend that's too much of a fan of Isochronos Scepter + Boomerang and you can't even get lands on the table, you tell me how fun is it
@ThomasMundane Keep up the creative ideas! Pathfinder's a really complicated game, so it's hard to make homebrew ideas that jive with the rest of the system
(Heck, even the designers struggle with it sometimes)
@MikeQ yeah, some of my friends have gone that route
it's fun when we multiplayer and we have to keep track of the counter that counters the counter that countered the counter that was countering my puny Kithkin creature
@Rubiksmoose Maybe you powers are going off. Spiderman got that too... He went to the F4 for help and they gave him more juice... HE passed a fase where he was actually mutating into a spider but he's good now. It's definitively worth a check
@Helwar Anyway, you may want to have a session-zero-ish discussion with your new DM pal, so they know what to expect from players, and the players know what to expect from them
Example: Railroading is often seen as "bad" by experienced DMs, but for a novice DM who doesn't improvise well, it can be useful if the players agree to it
@MikeQ it really depends what's meant by "railroading" and how railroad-y it is
if it's something like Hoard of the Dragon Queen, it basically just requires player buy-in and understanding to make a character that's willing to accept such an adventure
we have someone that has played Neverwinter Nights so "knows the rules, mostly", and my friend's uncle owned 2e but never played. All the others are totally new to the idea. I was practically rules lawyering and giving counsel to my friend all the time while he DM-ed the one shot. Some of them were into roleplaying, others wanted to kill everything my friend described...
@V2Blast Well, AFAIK, ToA is quite open in the begining. I would expect an honest: Guys, there is nothing in the book about assaulting the old ruin, so I'm not confortable just making it up. Could you pick any other available option?
@Helwar ToA's quite open in terms of choices of where to go, but almost all the named locations they can find out about have at least some description in the book
The only thing that worries me is that all are newbies and none know this is a time commitment, and that you have to take a step back and let others have fun. Not that they are bad, just new. It's a lot of different people.
I mean, half the group won't have the Character Sheet done by the day. They say they will but my friend knows them and doesn't believe so. They had two weeks and some don't even know what they want to play. And I did a 3 pages table with short descriptions of every available race and class, with links to pictures and the page number. SO it's not like they HAD to open the book to know if they fancied one class or race.
@MikeQ I tried to convince my friend but he just bought the book and went with it anyway. Sadly is the only campaign available in Spanish. I offered to translate Phandelver to him (I already DMed it twice but I know how to step back and not metagame), but he just went with ToA anyway
also the only 2 people that know ANYTHING about the game have picked the easiest to play classes, and the two taht I found where LEAST interested wanted to be Sorcerer and Druid. I convinced the Druid to change and she's now a Warlock at least...
Actually, cleric and druid aren't bad choices for new or uninvested players. Prepared divine casters don't really require pre-planning the character build. If they're dissatisfied with their spell selection, they can swap spells fairly easily.
@Helwar For a long-term campaign, yes, because unlike spontaneous casters, the build is flexible. Even if they don't consider all the animal options, they have the ability to choose new ones.
Yeah well, you and me can. One of my regulars started with Druid, and she was flaberghasted every time it was her turn because she had so many things she could do, and scared of doing anything different. Up until now her druid seems to know Cure Wounds, Produce Flame, Moonbeam, and can transform into a Bear or a specific dinosaur I don't remember the name of.
@Helwar yeah, frontlining as a cleric takes a bit of realization of one's limits, more so than with other classes (I do it on a regular basis, but that's partly me and partly me knowing more about the game)
she has AAAAAAAAALL the options but she lets herself be driven around by the others because she's overwhelmed. Not even ONCE has she thought about using her animal shape for anything other than soak damage
@Helwar That's often a sign the player feels pressured to make optimal decisions. You can reduce the pressure by framing their turn as "What do you want to do?" instead of "What is the correct thing to do?"
@MikeQ I wouldn't suggest Druid to new players. It has taken months for my wife to come to terms with all her abilities. Far too complex for a brand new player than is only semi-interested.
@MikeQ Oh yeah, I don't think I'm pressuring her at all. Most that I've done is ask the other players to not say anything during her turn. Because then she just does what her husband says and doesn't think about it. I think if that she's forced to think for herself it will change how she sees the game. Also I've told her a million times, any choice is better than just Moonbeaming everything with a lvl 9 Druid...
@Helwar Sometimes players just aren't comfortable being put on the spot. I've got a bard in my party that can barely make a decision for themselves and barely talks to NPCs because she's scared of doing something wrong.
I was gonna write another essay. Let's just say she feels flaberghasted every time it's her turn, and most of it is because she has a miriad options and too many inputs :P
If talking to the player OOG about it doesn't help, and they still feel pressured to make strictly optimal choices, then you could consider finding ways to reward suboptimal choices
I help her by giving her a reduced set of options sometimes rather than an open ended list. It helps keep the game going and reduces their stress from holding up the game.
That can also work! There's a question here somewhere about more helpful alternatives to saying "It's your turn, what do you do" by providing constraints
@linksassin like instead of: "It's your turn, what do you wanna do?", you say "It's your turn. You could pull the lever and fill the canal with water, or let that to your friend and try to heal the Barbarian, or maybe cast an area spell now that the enemies are all together in a choke point"
btw @linksassin, on a different note, may you can help me address one of my concerns/quasi-fears with going out on a limb to play with/run for groups that I don't know?
@linksassin I have a pole with clothes pins with their names and enemies to keep intiative, and I do the full nurse rollcall every now and then (barbarian goes, after it's the warlock, you go after her)
@linksassin basically, one of my concerns when playing with folks who I haven't played with before, and a major concern for me when seeking out new horizons/communities, is "will they respond well to trope-subversion, or are they going to be traditionalists/lore-sticklers who go 'no, stop trying to be a special snowflake/edgelord' at it?"
@Shalvenay I'm not @linksassin but that feels like session 0 material. Isn't it? You sit with the group and set expectations, listen to what they want and consider if it's something you can add to what you want to run or you tell them you don't like to run like that. You can always compromise if you want.
@linksassin what tropes would you be concerned about then?
one of the lore-pricklers I ran into was someone who insisted you couldn't bring a summoned fire elemental into a wooden building without burning the place down
Hum, as an amateur writer all I can say about tropes is that using them is not the problem. As long as the narrative you build is good, tropes are there to be used and exploited, directly or subverting them. I think it would be very difficult to have a plot that has no tropes whatsoever...
@linksassin hehehe, that's how I think, and it's something that has backing in D&D 3.x (as I mentioned re: the SRD for fire elementals not listing Combust as an ability on them)
@linksassin yeah, when it's a player-to-player conflict over something that is being tacitly allowed but not explicitly ruled upon, it's a fair bit harder
@linksassin as to my question re: tropes I probably should be more concerned about groups getting prickly about? (and I also am concerned about this as a player -- I tend to like trope-subversive PCs as well as being a trope-subversive DM)
I reckon that the question from the player side is "how do I avoid getting treated as a 'special snowflake' or 'edgelord' for making PCs that subvert generally accepted fantasy tropes?"
@Shalvenay Hum. Basically everyone is Drizzt? :) Well I solved it making them decide the caracters they were playing together. They kept themselves in check when they noticed everyone was a snowflake and there wasn't a single one of them that wasn't trying to take it up a few notches at a time :P
Generally, subverting a trope is only problematic if 1. the audience feels strongly about upholding that trope, and/or 2. the subversion is implemented in a problematic way
I answered a question on writing.se about getting multiple buy-ins which is somewhat related from a DM side. You need to set up the world and the associated expectation early.
For example, if the DM or players have very rigid beliefs about how paladins should and must behave, then a trope-subverting paladin could be problematic in that particular group, even if the character is not inherently problematic
@Helwar basically, how do I avoid getting tarred with that brush if I'm playing a character that doesn't fit the generally-accepted-rules-of-the-land if you will (good example: the Gnoll that roams around my standing stable of PCs -- she's a LN monk/cleric of St. Cuthbert, raised from a kit by a monastery in the City of Dyvers in Greyhawk in her original campaign)
@MikeQ yes, this. I could see where Jherala actually would raise hackles among some folks of that persuasion simply from being a Paladin/Warlock MC
@Shalvenay Not much you can do about that type of player other than not play with them. Some people get uptight about you "having fun wrong". I play a Drow Druid and a Human Rogue that just really wants to help people.
For example, the group in our one-shot had no issue with T'Kharr being a gnoll monk/cleric, because I didn't assume, establish, or enforce any particular rules about how gnolls within the game's setting, even though we said it took place in Baldur's Gate
@Helwar basically, Gnolls are treated as pretty much always-CE by and large, even more so than most other monstrous races (for ex. Volo's doesn't even talk about them)
I've learned that, when running games, it helps to establish what is and isn't the lore of your game's setting. Which is problematic when the players want to use familiar settings.
@Shalvenay Well there is a reason for that in-lore. In-lore they are created by a demon and are practically demons themselves that can only feel 2 things: Everlasting hunger and rage. Pretty difficult to be anything but CE ^^ But maybe in your world Gnolls are only another kind of beastmen, then they can be whatever
I'm very strict about players not importing issues that are established in some out-of-campaign lore. Going forward, I think I'll try the "superhero multiverse reboot" approach, where I pick an established setting for the general feel, and then rewrite with my own rules and history.
@linksassin The character I'm making now is a rogue, a noble that didn't want to partake in the family business (war) and was sent to the military to straigthen him up, and ended up being in an infiltration team that saw mostly 0 combat, and he likes it like that. He's not a thief, nor a burglar.
@BESW me too :) Also, one of my players is like the Forgotten Realms Loremaster. If I play in Toril he's gonna be constantly irritated when I get things wrong (he never says, but I can tell :P)
@Helwar Mine was a folk hero, she stole some weapons to help fight an oppressive tyrant and accidentally started a fight they couldn't win. She only steal/kills to try to improve the lives of others. Neutral Good but deeply flawed.
@Helwar I once re-skinned every creature, place, and culture that hit the table for a year-long D&D campaign so that everyone else would be pleasantly surprised. Now I can do that but be pleasantly surprised myself, too!
@Shalvenay LPL is great. You just gave me a concept for the next rogue... lockpicking for the sake of picking the lock not for the treasure behind it...
@Helwar if you are me, you just let your terrible memory do the trick. (I have a notoriously bad recall memory. Like to the point where friends and loves have apparently told me gifts they got me but when I actually got them, I was completely surprised)
@Shalvenay Re: Groups potentially rejecting character ideas - Another technique I use is to start with maybe 2-3 character concepts, then suggest multiple, and asking which the group prefers more.
@BESW I let my players define the culture and social structure of their race rather than using the existing descriptions from the PHB, they take the stats and then make up a new world around it.
@BESW Oh I remember you linked that to me once. I tried to convince my players to try it. Sadly most of them are more interested in the minmaxing and murderhoboing so a Roleplaying based game wasn't their cup of tea
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@linksassin I'm imagining them getting like some random box with nothing in and everyone being super disappointed at the lack of good loot, and the rogue just being like "but did you see how that lock was put together, the way the tumblers moved like poetry"
@Ash "Guys, the jail in this town has a reputation for super difficult locks. Barbarian can you beat up that guy and get us arrested so I can try them?"
Guys, this what kind of trait would be? (5e background traits) "I hate gods and religions, they are just there to control people's lives. But I do envy those with real faith". Is this just a Character Trait? Or can it be an Ideal? (I always struggle coming with these...)
@Shalvenay Specifically, I have a queue of maybe 3+ different character concepts, some of which are more stereotypical than others. Usually I reserve the more unconventional ideas for familiar player/DM groups.
@Helwar It sounds more like a generic character trait. Though you can make the first part into an ideal. "Religions only exist to control the masses" would be an ideal. "I envy those with real faith" could be a flaw or a trait.
@Helwar You don't have to though. Background traits and more of a guideline in creating multi-dimensional characters. You can just make it a trait if you want to.
I only use the traits when the player doesn't know much about the character
@Shalvenay How do you do character creation for these sessions? I do creation at the table as a group so everyone gets input to each others character before the campaign starts.
the DM is asking it of everyone, to force everyone to at least think a little about their character, so I'm gonna do it as well. It isn't directed at me... I'm a RPer first and foremost, but still :P
@Helwar You could easily make that a trait and come up with other ideals or flaws. We I have been forced to do it I tend to fill the box rather than come up with something and try to fit it into a box
Or if you used a standard background check the random tables for ideas
@BESW My players once found your standard dusty old tomb with blasphemous demon idol in the corner, and one of them rolled really well on his Religion check to recognize it, and I said "Yes! You do! Tell me all about it."
Hmm... what's a good Officer Rank for a spy soldier? My Background is Soldier so I need (and want) that officer rank but I'm clueless about them and dunno what would be "good", meaning not just a lowly no-body that has absolutely 0 leniency, nor an Admiral that can control armies. Something low-to-mid tier would be good?
@linksassin the answer I was afraid I would get. Ultimately I'll have to talk it with my DM but I wanted to suggest him something reasonable, so hecan take it if he wants and not give him more work
Lieutenant is one step up from there and Captain yet another.
@Helwar As the other conversation in this thread has been talking about your DM will probably be happy for you to define what the structure of that army is. It saves them work and gives you a cool insight into worldbuilding.
@Helwar "Captain" suggests a leader, while leaving the exact scale of their command ambiguous. Captain Kirk has a starship, Captain America has like ten guys.
We're currently live streaming a Q&A session for our D&D 5e actual-play podcast (we're missing a few players tonight), Planeslip: Echoes of Creation: https://www.twitch.tv/events/VZwwDCGeQxuKvrgjKfC4tg
Plot summary: In a universe adjacent to our own lies a world known as Runia. This world, once peaceful and idyllic, is now threatened by a monstrous being from its prehistory. A group of adventurers known as Whiskey Company have risen up to do what they can to fight this entity known only as Nagat. They have trekked far across the mortal realms in search of the shards of Barrinoth, the Titan…
@Helwar In a fantasy setting the ranks and roles in an army could be entirely fictional words as well. 'Spell-weaver' isn't a rank in a real army but could be for the Elves.
@linksassin Exactly what I thought. I'm glad someone else agrees with the idea.
True enough, for the moment I settled on Liutenant given as my character has been forcibly discharged 'cause his noble family interceded to do so, maybe he got a raise paired with that discharge. Reason of the forced discharge is his older brother is sick with the Curse (in ToA) so that's one reason my pc wants to fix that. He doesn't want to be the heir at all :P
@Helwar Basically decide how much responsibility your character had and pick a word for it. That's what that word means now. Remember that if you are starting at level 1 you are unlikely to a veteran of 1000 battles. Failed recruits, deserters or the army being disbanded not long after you signed up are good explanations.
@Helwar Ignore my last point, you already have a good reason for discharge, nice concept.
@linksassin Sure! That's why my backstory while long, it doesn't have him slaying armies :P Basically he was a courier for a few years, then got picked up for infiltration. Seen almost no combat :)
but that was a choice not an oversight :). First concept he had a too-big shirt under there that bulged around the non armored parts
but since we are going to the jungle I thought that eventually the character would be fed up with so many clothes so.... just a tank top under the armor /shrugs/
You have a rogue going into a tropical jungle, infested with bugs and poison ivy and regional bacteria, and leather armor that will probably cause more rashes when damp, and they're worried about hair color?
@BESW By the way, I had a question for you regarding FATE games. If I wanted to re-skin a module with a different genre and style of play, what are some pitfalls to expect? You had mentioned a while ago some issue with players having different expectations about the setting's rules.
@MikeQ Popular media? I mean, I see where they come from. In the middle of the night a blonde mop of hair would reflect more light than dark hair. Buuuut... Still, I guess most media paint's rogues like that. I can't think of a blond male rogue of the top of my head
@MikeQ I'm heading out now, will think about it. Got details? As a broad question the answer is "re-skinning is not a concept that works with Fate because it's assigning new narrative to the same mechanics while Fate is rooted in assigning mechanics based on narrative."
@BESW Re: Uranium Chef, some potential players have objected to the 1. scifi genre and 2. competitive play. I suggested editing it as cooperative wizard chefs in a relatively familiar fantasy setting, and got some positive feedback on the idea.
@BESW There's at least one scene in which some PCs can be teamed up with some other PCs, but it's possible (or assumed) there are PCs on both sides. I figured maybe instead, I could have all the PCs on one side, and either an enemy team or a multi-headed opponent that gets multiple turns.
@Helwar For the record, we're fine with people linking to their own products so long as they disclose their affiliation and it actually makes sense in context as a helpful thing to do.
