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12:27 AM
Dumb question: is it true that $\langle (m,n ) \rangle = \langle m \rangle \oplus \langle n \rangle$, where $m,n \in \Bbb{Z}$?
 
no
 
Is $\langle (m,n) \rangle \subseteq \langle m \rangle \oplus \langle n \rangle$?
 
yes
 
1:17 AM
1
Q: Is there some way to get MathJax to display this complete equation nicely?

uhohIn this answer I have a long equation. I've artificially broken it up into three terms t = A (B + C) so it doesn't boggle the mind when transcribing. However when I tried to display it completely, it runs off the right margin and into the hot network questions area. I'm using MacOS and Chrome,...

" Just ask; don't ask to ask." so I did
 
@MartinSleziak Yes. I found that difficult.
Okay. I will try again.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:06 AM
In the definition of a semi regular continued fraction, $$a_{0} + \frac{\varepsilon_{1}}{a_{1}+}\frac{\varepsilon_{2}}{a_{2}+}\frac{\varepsilon_{3‌​}}{a_{3}+} \cdots \frac{\varepsilon_{n}}{a_{n}+} \cdots $$ what is the intution behind the property $\varepsilon_{n+1} + a_{n} \ge 1$
 
 
1 hour later…
4:27 AM
nevermind, got it
 
4:54 AM
wow everyone is still here
 
Zee
5:24 AM
Ya boy
 
We never left.
It's a curse.
 
5:36 AM
We're bound to this room for the rest of eternity
 
5:47 AM
quick question about the minimal polynomial of a matrix. $m_A(t) = \prod_{j}(t-a_j)^{d_j}$ where $a_j$ are all the eigenvalues of $A$. Question is, why shouldn't all but one $d_j$ be $1$? Where the one that's left is the minimal index of one of the linear operators $A-a_jI$?
 
Pig
What if you look at direct sum of two jordan blocks of different eigenvalues?
 
in that case I'm still left with $m_A(A) = 0$ and $m_A$ is of least degree
 
Pig
no i mean, if you look at two jordan blocks, you can easily construct examples where more than one $d_i > 1$
 
sure
but a priori i don't know that the minimal polynomial has anything to do with the jordan blocks
(in fact that's what I'm trying to prove)
 
Pig
uh, it's just one way you can construct examples?
as in, i'm not sure why you think your claim is correct
but you know jordan blocks automatically give you counterexmaples
so playing with jordan blocks should help you figure out why
 
5:51 AM
well, $m_A$ is the monic polynomial of least degree such that $m_A \mid p_A$, and $m_A(A) = 0$
 
@MikeMiller I typed up the thing I was asking about yesterday here: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/460476/…. I've finished my problem, but there is still a question, the "add-on" at the bottom, that I'm quite interested in. Give it a look if you're interested
 
Zee
Ewwww tensors
 
XD
I know how you feel, I've spent the past two days in close, close quarters with them.
 
6:23 AM
Glad you were able to pin down the question and get a response. I doubt I have anything to add beyond what's been said.
 
Zee
6:39 AM
Is there any theorems about the localization of the localization of a ring, both localizations are different
 
7:28 AM
@N.Maneesh I have mentioned this also in the general topology chat room. Maybe somebody might notice the question there and they add something useful. (However, the room is not very active, so the likelihood is not too high.)
 
8:18 AM
This turned out much nicer than I thought it would freehand
(How to keep yourself awake during a boring lecture)
 
Zee
That looks cool
sleep during lecture FTW
 
 
2 hours later…
10:08 AM
Hi @ÍgjøgnumMeg
 
10:19 AM
(If this ping was completely random I'll blame the chat showing up random people as online when they're not all the time)
 
@AlessandroCodenotti Hi
 
do you know some real analysis ?
am reading from Rudin's book and could not follow the proof of compactness
K< Y < X
 
I surely knew some, whether I remember it is another matter, but just ask your question and someone will be able to help most likely even if it's not me
 
K compact in Y iff K compact in X
 
10:28 AM
@AkivaWeinberger cool!
 
So what's your doubt about that proof?
 
I want to say how i think of it , and someone tells me if I have the right idea or not
assume K is compact in X , and want to show K is compact in Y first
 
So let G_a be an open cover of K in Y
for each G_a_i we can write it as Y intersect H_a
where H is open set in X
since K is compact in X , we know that there a finite cover
 
Ok that works
 
10:35 AM
Now K is contained in Y, and K is contained in H_a
so K is contained in the Union H_a_i intersect Y
since those are finite, H_a_i , we have a finite cover in Y
 
That's good, what about the other direction?
 
did not think of it yet , but I assume it is the same idea
to find a cover and show it has a finite subcover
 
It's a similar argument indeed, but think about it to be sure there are no tricky details you're missing
 
okay thanks I will now
try to write it on papper then ping you
 
10:52 AM
Nice little puzzle:
Find all $n$ such that $5\cdot2^n+1$ is a square
 
 
2 hours later…
12:22 PM
$4$
 
 
1 hour later…
user131753
1:42 PM
Let $X$ be a compact topological space. Suppose that for any $x, y ∈ X$ with $x \ne y$ there exist open sets $U_x$ and $U_y$ containing $x$ and $y$, respectively, such that $$U_x \cup U_y = X$$ and $$U_x \cap U_y = Ø$$Let $V ⊆ X$ be an open set. Let $x ∈ V$. Show that there exists a set $U$ which is both open and closed and $x ∈ U ⊆ V$.
 
user131753
Can anyone give me any hint regarding this problem?
 
user131753
It is easy to see that $X$ is compact Hausdorff and hence $T_4$. Which would imply that there exists an open set $U$ such that $x\in U\subseteq \overline{U}\subseteq V$. But I can't proceed from here.
 
2:01 PM
Can someone please have a look at it? I posted it a few minutes ago and it didn't get any attention.
Implicit differentiation to obtain expression value - math.stackexchange.com/q/3111403/438329
 
2:19 PM
Howdy hoo
Very short question
Suppose I had the simple integral
$$
\int \frac{dx}{1+x}
$$
What stopping me from integrating this to $-\log(1/(1+x))$ ?
WIth absolute value signs
Of course
Or in general, could I just integrate to that kind of fraction at whichever point I pleased?
 
2:34 PM
Depends what you're integrating over
If $1\over 1+x$ is continuous on the domain you're integrating over, sure
 
2:55 PM
Hi @Martin
 
3:48 PM
@Astyx I'm integrating over a real variable translated by a complex number
So for example, my original integral was over $x$ from $-a$ to $a$, and this number is a complex number but this complex part is constant
So then the integrating "boundaries" are $-a+bi$ to $a+bi$...
 
Can someone please have a look at it? I posted it a few minutes ago and it didn't get any attention.
Implicit differentiation to obtain expression value -
0
Q: Implicit differentiation to obtain expression value

TanujQuestion and attempt at the question I've been trying to evaluate the following expression, I'm not sure if I'm heading into the right direction though. Could someone kindly let me know what the correct approach to tackle questions like this?

 
I would argue I could choose the branch cut of the complex log such that I translated to the part where that log would be within a single branch
This could be done for any $a$ so I'd guess the expression would hold with that extra remark
 
4:16 PM
Let $X$ be some topological space. Given a subspace $A \subseteq X$, does there exist an open set $U$ such that $A \subseteq U$ and $U$ deformation retracts onto $A$? How about if $A$ is closed? If not, what if we further assume that $X$ Hausdorff? Heck, assume it is a metric space if necessary.
I ask this question because I think my professor is presupposing that this is true in a hint he gave me for a problem I'm working on.
 
If $S \subset M$ is a compact oriented $k$-submanifold of an oriented $n$-manifold $M$, then it has a Poincaré dual $\eta_S \in H_{dR,c}^{n-k}(M)$ in the de Rham cohomology group with compact support defined by
$$
\int_M \eta_s \wedge \omega = \int_M i^*\omega \quad \text{ for all } \omega \in H^k_{dR}(M)
$$
and a fundamental class $[S] \in H_k(M;\mathbb{R})$. Is it true that $[S] \mapsto \eta_S$ under the composition
$$ H_k(S;\mathbb{R}) \xrightarrow{\text{i}_*} H_k(M;\mathbb{R}) \xrightarrow{\text{PD}} H^{n-k}_{c}(M;\mathbb{R}) \xrightarrow{\text{DR}} H_{dR,c}^{n-k}(M), $$
 
 
1 hour later…
5:22 PM
@user193319 it can fail even under all those assumptions, look at the bad point of the Hawaiian earring as A. It probably holds in the situation you're interested in if that's your professor's suggestion though
 
5:41 PM
Hi
Let X be a metric space, and we have a collection of compact sets in X.
theorem sais if the intersection of any finite subcollection is non empty then so is the intersection of all of them
but this does not seem to be correct
never mind SOLVED
 
6:31 PM
Okay I have one more question
I've been sitting on an integral for two months. I think I have to come to terms that I need a hand lol
 
6:49 PM
Let $X := (S^1 \times S^1) \cup (D^2 \times \{x_0\}$, where $x_0 \in S^1$. Is the fundamental group of $X$ isomorphic to $\Bbb{Z}^2/\langle (m,n) \rangle$, or did I screw something up?
 
7:01 PM
Sorry yes
Simple question first
Wolframalpha sometimes uses a simple "look-up table" like expression
You can trace the way something is calculated and it's literally taking a gigantic expression and swaps out coefficients to obtain a final answer
Where would I find a reference for an expression like that?
 
and the difficlult one?
 
Nice, the link breaks
Nope. Nice
Just copy paste this in wolframalpha you'll see the problem \int \frac{\log(1-x) \log(1-\alpha*x)}{x} dx
 
$\int \frac{\log(1-x) \log(1-\alpha x)}{x} dx$?
 
Yeh
 
@1010011010 What is a "simple 'look-up table' like expression"?
 
7:10 PM
Do you have mathematica?
 
Do you know the key TraceInternal->True?
 
Actually no, if you have RUBI this is even easier
 
but idk what is a "simple 'look-up table' like expression" thats the problem, not sure RUBI will help here.
 
7:12 PM
What I'm getting at is this
It essentially states "use known integral \int ... = ..... + ... + .... etc"
For the above integral
Rather than giving steps
Without giving any reference as to how that result is obtained
I've looked for weeks for a reference
I've tried some 40 different substitutions to see whether it would give the above expression, it doesn't
One option is the transform the alpha into something that obeys some group theory structure and limiting the atoms of each integral that way
But the doodoo seems universal through the integral
So yes I can sort of solve it, but the expressions can't even be called hideous
 
@1010011010 can you specify what you are talking about here?
 
Well, suppose you type in \int x dx in mathematica, there is a step by step solution I believe
It will tell you "use known result 1/2 x^2"
+c
So, I suppose to most people that equality would be trivial
 
And you want a reference for this?
 
What I'm talking about is that it uses this humongous equality with no reference
 
without giving the expression I think its not possible to answer this
 
7:17 PM
I will download Mathematica and RUBI and give you the whole thing all right
 
a screenshot would be enough, though I'm no expert for complicated integrals. Also afaik such internals of mathematica are usually hardly accessible. If they are most likely people on the "mathematica stack exchange" forum can tell you how.
So the alternative left is to do a proper literature search I fear. But for that it would be good to know the specific expression you are talking about.
 
I have done that, if it's available then it's so obscure a 3 week long search doesn't find it
I also turned my uni's library upside down for it
You get the picture hehehe
 
here are some ressources mentioned btw.: quora.com/How-does-Mathematica-solve-integrals
 
It should be part of bullet point one, but sadly an associated expression yields no results with arbitrary computation time
Well, the simplest case would be simply putting three logs under the integral sign :p
So I'm inclined to believe that this holds for "most users"/"the general user" but not edge cases like this one
 
In case you can specifically formulate your question you could go here mathematica.stackexchange.com alternatively you could ask for a reference with a MSE question. I know there are some incredibly able integral crunchers around, who might be able to help as well.
 
7:29 PM
@Rudi_Birnbaum I've already posted one question on MSE and two related questions but sadly they were not answered :(
 
The following Group Theory room could do with some more users. Just sayin' . . .
 
link?
 

 Group Theory

Let's discuss group theory!
 
1
Q: Products of logarithms under the integral sign

1010011010This question is a simplification of a previously asked question: Polylogarithmic integrals Consider the following type of function: \begin{equation} \int \frac{\prod_{i=1}^N \log(x-\beta_i)}{x-\alpha} dx \end{equation} For the simple case of $N=2$ the integral is already highly complicated: \b...

 
here is something on polylogarithmic intergrals: usna.edu/Users/math/meh/mpi18.pdf
 
7:36 PM
Yes those are the definite case
s
 
You could also contact wolfram, its a commercial program after all.
 
Honestly, now that you say it
That might be my best shot at this point
 
I did it once and they were quite helpful, it took a little while for the reponse, however.
 
I'm going ahead and assuming that it will take less than the two months I've been stuck on it :p
 
good luck!
 
7:48 PM
Cheers
 
Let $X := (S^1 \times S^1) \cup (D^2 \times \{x_0\}$, where $x_0 \in S^1$. Is the fundamental group of $X$ isomorphic to $\Bbb{Z}^2/\langle (m,n) \rangle$, or did I screw something up?
 
Where did m and n come from...?
 
They come from $\Bbb{Z}$.
Should they be specific intgers?
 
8:08 PM
@user193319 The space is given explicitly. How could the fundamental group depend on two parameters?
 
They never showed up in the space you mentioned. So I don't know what they are.
 
@MikeMiller More details: Let $A_\alpha = S^1 \times S^2$, $A_\beta = D^2 \times \{x_0\}$. Then $A_\alpha \cap A_\beta \simeq S^1$, so $\pi_1(A_\alpha \cap A_\beta)$ is a cyclic group. By VK theorem, we have $\pi_1(X) = \pi_1(A_\alpha) \ast \pi_1(A_\beta)/N$, where $N$ is the normal subgroup of $\pi_1(A_\alpha) \ast \pi_1(A_\beta) \simeq \pi_1(\alpha) \simeq \Bbb{Z}^2$ generated by $i_{\alpha \beta)}(\omega) i_{\beta \alpha}(\omega)^{-1}$ with $\omega \in \pi_1(A_\alpha \cap A_\beta)$...
...continued...
But $N = \langle i_{\alpha \beta}(\omega) \rangle$ where $\omega$ is the generator of $\pi_1(A_\alpha \cap A_\beta)$.
Note that $i_{\alpha \beta} : \pi_1(A_\alpha \cap A_\beta) \to \pi_1(A_\alpha)$ is the hom. induced by the inclusion map.
$i_{\beta \alpha}$ is just the map into the trivial.
Since I don't know what $i_{\alpha \beta}$ does to $\omega$, I just said that $N$ isomorphic to some cylic group $\langle (n,m) \rangle$ in $\Bbb{Z}^2$.
 
OK, but then you never pinned down what the actual final answer was!
It shouldn't be hard to say what $i_{\alpha \beta}$ does to $\omega$ - how did you calculate $\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1)$ in the first place?
 
$\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1 ) \simeq \pi_1(S^1) \times \pi_1(S^1) \simeq \Bbb{Z}^2$.
 
I agree. What is the first map $\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1) \to \pi_1(S^1) \times \pi_1(S^1)$? (You can tell me its inverse, if you want.)
 
8:17 PM
I don't know.
 
You need to know that to answer this problem; in fact, you need to know what that map is to prove the claimed fact: that $\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1) \cong \Bbb Z^2$.
So that should be your first goal.
 
No, I don't need to prove $\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1) \cong \Bbb Z^2$; we did this in class, so I may assume it.
Shouldn't i just calculate $i_{\alpha \beta} (\omega)$ like you said?
 
You need to understand the proof for this problem.
In particular, what that isomorphism is.
 
I don't understand. My professor said this was just simple application of van Kampen's theorem.
 
It is, but you're hung up because you don't know what that map is (which you should; it would be defined in the first line of whatever that proof was). The professor assumes you do.
 
8:27 PM
Well, $\pi_1(S^1) \simeq \Bbb{Z}$, so let $\varphi$ denote the isomorphism. Then $\varphi \times \varphi$ would be the isomorphism from $\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1)$ to $\Bbb{Z}^2$.
 
But what is the map $\pi_1(S^1) \times \pi_1(S^1) \to \pi_1(S^1 \times S^1)$? That's the part we really care about - we're trying to see where $(\omega,0)$ goes in this map (using your notation). What does it do at the level of loops?
Maybe it will help if I say something more generally. There is a natural map (which is an isomorphism) $\pi_1(X, x) \times \pi_1(Y, y) \to \pi_1(X \times Y, (x,y))$. What is this map?
What does it do to a pair $\gamma: S^1 \to X$, $\gamma': S^1 \to Y$? What loop does it spit out in the product?
 
8:51 PM
Mike Miller has left the chat
 
9:24 PM
@MikeMiller Wouldn't the map just be $([f],[g]) \mapsto [(f,g)]$ where $(f,g)(t) := (f(t),g(t))$?
 
Hello
May someone tell me if the following property holds?
$\frac{d}{dx}$ $[\frac{dy}{du}$$]$ = $\frac{d}{du}$ [$\frac{dy}{dx}$$]$?
 
9:36 PM
@abenthy That's true. $\eta_S$ basically integrates to $0$ over smooth simplices normal to $S \subset M$. By the de Rham isomorphism, it gives rise to a cochain $\psi$ representing an element of $H^{n-k}(M; \Bbb R)$ which, upon eating an $(n-k)$-simplex normal to $S$, gives $0$. The PD isomorphism $H^{n-k}(M) \to H_k(M)$ is just $\alpha \mapsto [M] \frown \alpha$.
Triangulate $M$ in a way that $S \subset M$ is a subcomplex and $(n-k)$-simplices near the zero section of a tubular neighborhood are normal to $S$ (tangent to the normal fibers). This chain $c$ obtained from the triangulation represents $[M] \in H_n(M)$. $c \frown \varphi$ then just leaves you with the simplices that lie on $S$, which is a triangulation of $S$, hence represents $[S] \in H_k(M)$.
Exercise: Make all these formal
 
9:47 PM
Two typos: (1) $\eta_S$ integrates to 1... (2) ..., gives $1$.
 
@MikeMiller Okay. $\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1) \simeq \Bbb{Z}$ by $[\omega_{pq}] \mapsto (p,q)$, where $\omega_{pq} = (\omega_p, \omega_q)$. So $(1,0) \mapsto [\omega_{10}]$ and $(0,1) \mapsto [\omega_{01}]$ are the generators of $\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1)$. If $[\omega]$ is the generator of $\pi_1(S^1 \times S^1 \cap D^1 \times \{x_0\})$, where do I send $[\omega]$ by $i_{\alpha \beta}$? Do I send it to $[\omega_{10}]$ or $[\omega_{01}]$?
 
10:06 PM
Does anyone know the term for this type of hypothesis test? H_0 : \mu_1 + \mu_2 + \mu_3 - 3 \mu_4 = 0. Or could you point me in the right direction for figuring out how to conduct it?
 
11:03 PM
Oooh, a @Balarka was back and I missed him.
@topologicalmagician That doesn't even make any sense, to start with. Or is $y=y(x,u)$ a function of both variables and these are partial derivatives? Then it holds if the function is continuously twice differentiable.
 
An orientation of a vector space $V$ is a function $\varphi$ from the set of ordered bases of $V$ to the set $\{-1,1\}$ so that for any $B = (b_1, \cdots, b_n)$ and $C = (c_1, \cdots, c_n)$, $\varphi(B) \varphi(C) = \operatorname{sgn}([\operatorname{id}]_{BC})$
@TedShifrin is typing...
 
Is that a declaration or a question, @Leaky? I mean the orientation thing.
 
declaration
 
And why are you declaring it to us (me)?
 
because you hate formalism :P
 
11:09 PM
It's just the usual statement about equivalence classes of ordered bases. Hard for me to get upset about this one.
 
and I sorta discovered / invented this definition (based on the amalgamated product definition earlier)
oh no
this time it's different
 
No, it's not.
 
this time the trivial vector space also gets 2 orientations
 
No, there are no ordered bases.
 
the empty basis
very ordered
 
11:10 PM
There's a function on the empty set?
That's curious.
notes silence
 
the set of all ordered bases of the trivial vector space is a singleton
 
No, I disagree.
It's vacuous, so there is no element.
 
the empty set is a basis
which admits a unique order
 
No. There is no basis.
OK, we're done.
 
every vector space has a basis
 
11:57 PM
How do I find the dimension of a coset?
 

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