The Factory Floor

12:06 AM

@elemtilas I hope you'll pardon me if I'm repeating something others have already said, but those examples aren't anything like what @James is asking for. The questions aren't talking about qualitative traits like the ones you mentioned, nor are they looking for answers that draw on stereotypes, like the ones you suggest. They're asking for well-reasoned picks about societal patterns.

Again, looking at the question about Orcs, pretty much none of the traits mentioned are about personality or character traits. They're about objective facts about social structures.

I'm wondering if you would have objected less if James had simply asked "What are historical societies or peoples that have had X/Y/Z traits?", rather than explicitly stating that those will be applied to different species. At the core, that's what he's asking, and I'm having a hard time viewing the core question as racist.

Substitute "Orcs" and "Elves" with, I don't know, "people from the kingdom of Jultar" and "people from the West Riding of Kaelti" (just making up names), and I imagine folks would find the questions less objectionable. But they're the same.

I hope I presented that clearly. Let me know if I explained myself poorly.

elemtilas

12:38 AM

@HDE226868 Actually the issue is exactly the same: pick a fictional race (cats or elves -- no difference) and equate that with a group of human beings. It really does not matter if the "named tribe" no longer exists as such. The fundamental issue is the dehumanisation of group of people for the sake of a silly question. For my part, you explained yourself admirably.

I disagree with you (and James, et al) most vehemently. I don't think there's anything else that can really be said, so, while appreciate the opportunity to discuss, I now bow out.

HDE 226868

@elemtilas I think I understand you, too (thanks!), for the most part; I just don't see equating a group of humans with another species as a negative thing. That would imply that humans are superior to all other (fictional and real) species, in my mind. But I guess that's the core of the disagreement, so yeah, it's a good idea to leave it at that.

Monica Cellio

@elemtilas thank you for raising your concerns in a thoughtful way. I am trying to understand your perspective; could I try out a different example on you? We've seen works of fiction where aliens take over/replace/impersonate key individuals (like in governments). Are such stories inherently problematic? Not for racism, but do they devalue/dehumanize the people who are taken over?

I understand James's elves/orcs/dwarves/etc to be kind of like that -- these people you thought you were dealing with aren't really the people you think they are. James is looking for believable targets of "impersonation", sort of. (Does that make sense?)

(And you and HDE were talking while I was typing all that, so sorry for any redundancy or side-tracking.)

Whoops. I see you were wrapping up. If you feel this isn't going anywhere and don't want to answer me I'll understand. I'm sorry for being late to the table.

Cort Ammon

5:06 AM

Going a bit beyond the worldbuilding world, and getting into some of the more interesting discusions I get into in my free time, it is interesting that we have some comparisons in society which are forbidden, because getting them wrong is a heinous offense and getting them right is even worse. I know it's something I struggle with because I'm an intellectual in the sense that I'll entertain any idea long enough to beat on it with the logic-stick. For me, such taboos are just strange feeling.

But I'd be a fool to pretend they aren't taboo, or even to necessarily try to argue that they shouldn't be taboo. (yes, I am quite often the fool. Statement still stands)

Mithrandir24601

9:47 AM

What makes the talking animals in Narnia racist?

Ash

10:11 AM

@Green Hiya, I'm back, what's up?

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