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3:18 PM
This seems a duplicate.
Q: "Yeah Right" expression

Anderson SilvaWhere does "Yeah right" come from? Can it be used in a formal writing? If not, what is a good alternative?

I'm not so sure, actually. I think the whole irony thing makes it stand apart.
But it's kind of a poor question in other ways.
I guess vgv8 didn't understand how to use EL&U.
It's okay, I've made my fair share of mistakes, too.
He updated his question to reply to my comment.
Yes, I have seen that.
3:24 PM
I think that with 200 points he can already add comments to his own questions.
I'm not sure how to edit it into shape, and whether to bother at all.
Now that it's closed.
I have already done it.
Even if it's closed, the question is still accessible.
Yeah, my point is that it is perfectly acceptable to update one's questions/answers in response to comments. It's just the "at" syntax that he used that was jarring.
Theoretically, it is even possible to edit this question into shape such that it could get reopened. By kicking out Russian, and turning it into an all-about-English "single-proverb-request", you know? (^_^)
I was referring to the fact he replied to a comment inside the question. The reply to a comment has nothing to do with the question.
Then again, he did reply to my comment in a comment. Go figure.
Without at-mentioning me.
3:34 PM
I guess I didn't like he posted something about me in comment. :-)
3:49 PM
Q: Is this usage of "aren't" proper English?

Marc Esher Aren't you going to go outside? My wife insists this is improper English, Hillbilly speak, she calls it. The proper way to ask, she says, is Are you going to go outside? I say it's the same as asking Won't you play with me?, which I do not find offensive. So: is there anything wrong with u...

I think there is a little nuance between "aren't you going inside?" and "are you going inside?".
1 hour later…
5:16 PM
Anybody home?
It seems not. :-)
Nobody in here but us chickens, boss ...
I guess so. :-)
Speaking of translations ...
Americans of Italian ancestry have a phrase: "Stugotts"
Or something like that
I wondered what it means.
5:27 PM
Something like that.
I can ask to a friend of mine, who has Italian roots.
I mean, she is American, but her grandmother was Italian.
Anyway, she doesn't use gravy to mean tomato sauce.
I know the term has been attributed to Americans with Italian roots.
It may be spelled stugots ... and sorry, but it's associated with the TV show The Sopranos
The name of Tony Soprano's boat. I don't know as I'd go and ask someone's grandmother, because I think it's obscene.
If it's obscene, I have a guess.
I think the Italian spoken on that show must be not very genuine, because the pronunciations sound very odd. Cappicola, for example, is pronounced like "gobbigool"
In some Italian dialects stu means this.
5:32 PM
Oh, like for questo?
What about gots then? Another contraction?
Manicotti is "managott" and so forth.
Cappicola seems closer to capocollo. My friend knows Calabrian.
Looking to how cappicola is pronounced, I would think the word is stu caz.
In Calabrian, the word would be cazzu, and has a sexual meaning.
Hi Vitaly
Did you get through that poem yet? :)
I gave Vitaly homework last night.
5:41 PM
@Robusto I have just read the poem, before signing into this chatroom. It beautifully and powerfully captures the spirit of some sort of reverie, which is almost akin to Buddhism, I think.
I mean, the word you are asking seems stu cazzu.
@Robusto Was it the Piper that made you share the poem?
Thanks Kiamlalu
@Robusto: YVW.
@Vitaly: No, not the Piper. You said you liked "odd-sounding" writing, which I thought might mean exotic or some other similar concept.
5:43 PM
And according to *Partridge Slang Dictionary*, “_stugots; stugats
noun the penis. From southern Italian dialect, adapted/corrupted by Italian-American immigrants US, 1962_”
Ha, molto bene
@Robusto Well, the poem is not as odd-sounding as Joycean writing. It's almost transparent, though I had to backtrack some phrases to understand them.
Not Joycean ... but I would imagine hard for a non-native speaker to parse.
Actually, hard for most native speakers to parse as well.
Actually, it would be easy to parse for a native Russian speaker given the native speaker has a sufficiently large vocabulary
It may be hard to native English speakers to parse it because it bends the grammar around, to which Anglophones are not used, I would believe
Meaning, not words. The words are fairly easy to parse, although one can get lost in the hypotaxis.
5:48 PM
And which is natural in the Russian language
Here's a simpler poem of his:
Of Mere Being

The palm at the end of the mind,
Beyond the last thought, rises
In the bronze distance.

A gold-feathered bird
Sings in the palm, without human meaning,
Without human feeling, a foreign song.

You know then that it is not the reason
That makes us happy or unhappy.
The bird sings. Its feathers shine.

The palm stands on the edge of space.
The wind moves slowly in the branches.
The bird’s fire-fangled feathers dangle down.

~Wallace Stevens, 1954~
Anyway, Stevens is one of my favorite poets.
Now that one's odd. Help!
It's very simple, yet profound.
I don't think this is harder to comprehend than The Idea of Order at Key West, though.
Suffice to say that they are both talking about the same thing.
To put it simply, one way to look at this is to suppose that reality is always a construct of the imagination.
Ah, yes, the human reality is always in the human's mind
And my reality at this moment is that I have a 1:00 meeting to attend. Ciao! for now.
5:59 PM
Bye @Robusto
Lots of poetry in here.
What is this — writers.SE?
(I guess I am in the wrong room, then.)
No, more like readers.SE
We're not writing poetry here. Yet. ))
@Kosmonaut: please have a look at the close tab as time permits, there are a few questions that are dangling at 3 or 4 close votes.
I don't feel like flagging everything, that would be overkill.
Many thanks.
6:53 PM
I cannot believe nobody gets the meaning of "I will go up the stores". :-)
Now I'm intrigued.
Q: I will go up to the stores

kiamlalunoWhat is the common meaning that is understood from the sentence I wrote as title?

I heard that from my friend, who lives on LI.
Yeah, I have seen that question and the answer. I' intrigued what your proposed alternative would be.
I know what she means because I know where the stores are. I actually went to those stores.
Okay. Let's wait for another answer, then.
6:56 PM
I will tell you tomorrow. I don't want to influence you.
I can just say that is quite easy to catch.
Sure, I'm not asking that you disclose it here. Just saying that I am looking forward to read it on the site.
We have that expression in Italian too, actually.
Now you are influencing me.))
Vado su in paese.
That doesn't mean I go to the town following a vertical path.
Vice versa, I would say I go down to Calabria.
Stop it, already)) Now every Italian who reads this thread is able to answer the question))))
7:01 PM
Are there any Italians, here? :-)
I'm joking, kiamlaluno.
Wheeeew. I was counting on the fact there aren't Italians, on this room. :-)
Yeah, those Italians, they're just everywhere! (^_^)
You never know.
7:03 PM
Don't tell me!
I go to New York, and what language do I hear? Italian!
If you can believe it, when I hear that, I speak American (or my version of it).
Then again, you're biased. If I went to New York, the first language I would hear would be Russian.
7:04 PM
@RegDwight And the second? ;)
@Vitaly: is that toki pona once again?
No, that's Persian for North/South
I escape from Italy, and Italian is not the language I want to hear when I am on USA.
Excluding from the Calabrian I speak together my friend, of course.
What's Persian for zenith/nadir?
Zenith/Nadir? :-)
7:07 PM
Not sure, actually.
So, am I right, @kiamlaluno?
I think you quite obviously are.
Well in that case, it's not “commonly understood”, because it's British English.
I was in the middle of writing just that.
7:09 PM
No matter what Persians, Italians, and Russians agree upon, if there's an answer by a native speaker saying something different, well, tough luck.
I have to disagree on that. My friend is American, and she doesn't understand a word of British English. :-)
Perhaps she's not a common American...))
I asked her what she means, and she confirmed I was right.
She is surely not common. :-)
I guess I have to remove "commonly".
Just because something or someone is not common doesn't mean that it or they are uncommon ... :)
It might be too late.
Yeah, just because something is flammable...
7:19 PM
Common doesn't start with in. ;-)
OK, we have that in common, at least.
The M on my keyboard is actually broken.
I have to hit it real hard.
Just a few minutes ago I misspelled "I'm".
What's worse, it's a Ь in Russian. Can't live without that one. People keep thinking I' a oron.
Is that word "moron"? :-)
7:26 PM
You tell e.
It could be oron, an inhabitant of Orion.
Or this:
Der District d'Oron (dt. Bezirk Oron) war bis zum 31. Dezember 2007 eine Verwaltungseinheit des Kantons Waadt in der Schweiz. Hauptort war Oron-la-Ville. Der District wurde in die Cercles (dt. Kreise) Oron und Mézières aufgeteilt. 2002 wurde die Gemeinde La Rogivue mit der Gemeinde Maracon fusioniert. Der District bestand aus 22 Gemeinden, war 76.03 km² groß und zählte 10'924 Einwohner (Ende 2006). {| border="1" cellpading="5" cellspacing="0" style="border: gray solid 1px; border-collapse: collapse;" !colspan="5" align=center bgcolor="#EFEFEF" | Cercle de Mézières |- !colspan="1" bgco...
@RegDwight: I guess you are not using a Mac.
That would be my guess, too.
Looking at the little map, it seems Switzerland.
7:28 PM
Or Nigeria:
The Oron Nation comprises five Local Government Areas (LGAs) in Akwa Ibom State, Nigeria, where it is the third largest ethnic group in the state, and Bakassi LGA in Cross River State. The five Local Councils in Akwa Ibom are Oron, Udung-Uko, Mbo, Urue-Offong/Oruko, and Okobo. The Oron nation, popularly called 'Oro Ukpabang' or 'Akpakip Oro' by its indigenes, is made up up of several clans. Oron town is the third largest city in Akwa Ibom State after Uyo and Eket. It has a population of around 250,000 people living within the city. Lying on the Cross River, it has a seaport and a Maritim...
As you said I'm oron, it should be the second one.
No, I'm actually this one:
Haim "Jumas" Oron (, born 26 March 1940) is an Israeli politician and former Minister of Agriculture. He is currently head of the political party New Movement-Meretz, for whom he serves as a member of the Knesset. Biography Oron was born in Giv'atayim and grew up in Ramat Gan. His parents emigrated from Poland before World War II. His father was a textile worker and his mother a housewife. His nickname as a boy was "Jamus" (water buffalo) and later, "Jumas". Oron served in the airborne Nahal. After the army, he and his wife Nili joined kibbutz Lahav, where he taught in the high school a...
Now you know my second native tongue, @Robusto!
And there's a rather nice picture, too.
Or you could have been missing a space in a sentence: Am I on the 6:00 train of on the 5:00?
That would be Ofon. I'm not Ofon.
Today I learned that Samoron is a Cloath between Linnen and Hempen, not altogether so course as the one, nor fine as the other.
7:35 PM
BTW do they have an F in Hebraic? See, I don't even know that...
@Vitaly: where did you learn that, actually? Wikipedia only points me to samovar.
I was searching for words that end with ‘oron’ in the wordlist I posted here earlier.
I figured as much.
And that one word is in the OED.
7:40 PM
I was rushing
I meant "or on the 5:00"
I figured that, too)))
No access to the OED here, sniff.
† ˈsameron dial. (Yorks.) Obs.
Also 6 samoron, 6–7 samron, 7 sameran, 7 sammaron.
See quot. 1684.
1556 Knaresb. Wills (Surtees) I. 73 Thre yerdes of sameron. 1564 Ibid. 96, xj paire of samoron and hardin sheetes, xiij s. iiij d. 1583 in Ripon Charter Acts (Surtees) 380, xl yeredes of sameron, 20 s. 1598 Knaresb. Wills (Surtees) I. 211 My best blankett, samron and a harden shete. 1617–18 Ibid. II. 50 One paire of sameran sheetes. 1638 Ibid. 162 One little paire of samron shetes. 1684 G. Meriton Yorksh. Dial. 45 Thy Sammaron web..Is stown. Ibid. 107 (Alphabetical Clavis), Sammaron, is
Hard to make this word one's own.
Where'd you use it?
I don't even use silk that much.
7:48 PM
@RegDwight yeah, it's not like it's easy-peasy to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear
That's a good one.
So your first native tongue is Russian?
I guess making a sameron purse must be even harder.
I think it's pretty obvious by now.
You're a master of the indirect response.
Well, I gave you a rather direct one just yesterday:
A: Stack sites must support primary and secondary language when defining user profile

RegDwightFirst of all, there are issues that are much more urgent, such as the site search being rather useless, but even those feature requests are currently being rejected on the meta Meta. My impression is that the powers that be are somewhat hesitant about tweaking the StackExchange engine for beta ...

7:53 PM
I used to work with this guy who would say, in response to any question, "Well ... [oblique reference], so ..."
Just out of curiosity, I have to ask. When I asked the question about Yiddish a couple months ago, did it get flagged? Is that why Joel Spolsky showed up?
I don't remember seeing any flags but Joel is actually a regular.
Q: Is Yiddish a creole language? And if not, what is it?

RobustoA "creole" language is formed by the merging of two parent languages, usually through an earlier rudimentary mixture of the two. Does this make Yiddish a creole language? Was English itself a creole language in the century or so after the Norman Conquest? My question is really about what consti...

And he's obviously interested in such questions.
It felt like there was some kind of back-room palaver going on, like I was disrespecting some ethnic group or something.
He gave a great answer, btw.
At no point did I have that impression.
7:56 PM
I was a regular on Joel on Software before he quit for SO.
Jewish life and learning

Proposed Q&A site for people who base their lives on Jewish law and tradition and anyone interested in learning more. (If created, this will be the new home of mi.yodeya.com.)

Currently in commitment.

Yeah that's where I come from, too. I used to hang out on the JoS forums, actually.
I sometimes posted replies, but not that often.
I got bored when he started to talk about nothing but SO.
But I have links to some of his best columns. Hard to look at the dates on some of those being 2002, 2003, whatever. Doesn't seem like that long ago, but, well ... tempus fugit.
Heh. Well, I can't even begin to imagine how busy he must have been promoting it across the country.
Yeah, doesn't it suck when other people do what they want to do, not what you want them to do? I run into that all the time ... :)
Okay, so let me do what you want me to do, and give you a direct link:
A: First recorded appearance of the mistranslation "Red Square"

nohatUsing Google Books, I was able to antedate usage of “Red Square” to refer to the square in Moscow to 1844. It is from an 1844 translation of The Heretic by Ivan Ivanovich Lazhechnikov, the first use being on page 30: Look out of the window towards the Kreml, you will see the cannon-yard, ...

Read the comments. It's been there all the time ever since August 21st.
8:02 PM
Yeah, but at least I got you to do the leg work for me.
I mean, it's not like a search for RegDwight would turn up more than a few dozen hits at most, right?
No, but the meta post links to that very place.
Don't toy with me. :P
Yeah, I tried and failed.
13 mins ago, by Robusto
You're a master of the indirect response.
But that would make me the worst possible candidate ever for answering questions on a Q&A site!
8:06 PM
See, that's why we go over this stuff.
Just kidding, of course.
Sure. It's just that my thoughts are already elsewhere, with JoS.
That "How MS lost the API war" post was awesome.
Yes. And the recently-mentioned-on-English.SE classic, "The Law of Leaky Abstractions"
I am irritated that JoS links don't get inlined.
They should be!
Well, he didn't have the API for that in those days, I guess.
Even Amazon gets inlining.
8:10 PM
Tell him he should retrofit the old columns.
I think I will actually raise the issue on MSO.
But not today, I guess. Have to log off in a few minutes.
His columns, when they were new, used to take up a big chunk of my compile time.
Well, dos vdanya, shalom, w/e.
They used to take up a big chunk of my time, period.
I would print them out and read them on the bus.
I would read them in bed.
Now that's obsessive.
The john, yeah. In bed? Hmm...
Does he still put out FogBugz?
Nah, it's just when I first came across it, there were tons of posts already, and I couldn't read that much on a screen.
8:13 PM
I got our company to switch to that way back in 2006. Then I switched companies.
I tried to get ours to switch to FogBugz, to no avail. We've been tinkering with PHP ourselves ever since.
Imagine my frustration.
I know the feeling.
It's amazing how much productivity companies are willing to flush down the toilet for this or that rason.
or raison
8:16 PM
or Grund
I used to want to open a little pub and call it Maison d'Etre
Or причина, and now in Japanese
I demand.
Probably just 事.
That looks awfully familiar.
Yeah, you just attach it to any statement and it becomes an "explanative" ... and i just coined a word.
That's elegant.
8:19 PM
Sore wa [noun] koto desu ... It was a matter of [noun] or It was because of [noun].
It was a [noun] thing.
That makes even more sense, I've heard that construction in Zelda or something.
Japanese is very, very simple when you get down to the basics of structure and syntax.
The hardest part of the language, for me? Gairaigo ... foreign loan words.
I don't have that many problems with structure and syntax, or even with the kanji. My problem is Katakana. I just keep forgetting. Over and over again.
It's really mostly used like display type. You see it on signs a lot.
Hiragana is so much easier.
To me.
8:22 PM
It really is hard to read because they also use it for gairaigo.
And when I see a bunch of it, I slow way down in my reading, because I never know what they are going to throw at me.
Everything is suddenly a phonetic struggle.
I actually thought that was its main purpose.
That's one of its purposes.
But if you walk through Tokyo, or read Japanese magazines, you see it a lot just for ordinary signage.
Or ad headlines and the like.
Yeah, Christmas.
And waapuro is word processor.
Don't get me started.
Don't they actually have taberu as well?
8:24 PM
That's a Japanese word meaning to eat.
Oh, do you mean something that sounds like table?
I thought that was derived from the English table.
Probably they have that, I don't recall atm.
But there is chizu (map) and chiizu (cheese)
Mmmmhhh. Cheese.
The worst part is, when they find out you're an English speaker, they start throwing all the gairaigo at you, because OF COURSE you understand them ... hell, they're you're language, right?
The Swedes do that, too.
You just can't stop a Swede from talking at you in English.
8:27 PM
Same with Japanese. Here's a funny story ....
My wife is Japanese-American, but speaks little or no Japanese. I studied Japanese and speak it fairly well. When we would go into sushi restaurants, they would speak to her in Japanese, she would look at me, I would translate, then she would respond in English and I would tell the waiter what she said in Japanese.
Then the waiter would laugh and tell my wife in Japanese that I spoke very good Japanese, and how remarkable was that, yeah?
That's the very definition of OMG.
And then he would reply to me in English.
/rim shot
Hahaha. Of course!!
The hardest part about Japanese is getting people to talk to you in Japanese, which is necessary for fluency.
I'm rereading the story for the fifth time now, it's pure gold.
You can't invent that type of thing.
Life writes the greatest stories.
8:33 PM
Real life, yep. Who could have dreamed that?
Not even Joyce.
Although maybe Molly Bloom ...
That's meta.
Once you imagine a character, it has a life of its own.
Don't let us get into where we're all just dreams of an intergalactic computer or something.
8:35 PM
I actually read that poem the other day.
But everything that has ever existed, even in someone's mind, has had a kind of existence, and still exists somewhere in the space-time continuum.
Which poem?
The one you posted for Vitaly.
Of Mere Being?
8:37 PM
Nothing propinqs like propinquity.
I didn't quite understand who that Spanish-named character was supposed to be. He popped out of nowhere.
Oh, you're talking about The Idea of Order at Key West now.
Ramon Fernandez.
Darn, I had that feeling that I was mixing them up.
But I went with a "yeah" nonetheless.
I was pretty sure it contained the words mere and being, too...
Anyway, I didn't get the reference.
8:40 PM
Some people speculate that it refers to a literary critic.
Me, I don't need to know that to come to an understanding of the poem.
I like this one a lot. And I liked the one with the bird, too...
Wallace Stevens. He kicks ass, so to speak.
He is considered one of the imagist school of poets, but he's really not totally about that.
I was going to say that the wintery imagery got closer to my heart, but on a second thought, that wouldn't be true.
And look at it again. The whole poem is one single sentence.
8:44 PM
The references and antecedents pile up on one another. Suddenly you realize that "One must have a mind of winter ... not to hear any misery in the sound of the wind"
Which isn't apparent on first reading.
And the more you return, the more you see.
That poem still gives me chills, if you'll pardon the pun.
I must admit I totally missed that.
I still don't understand this question.
Q: Are there any cases of a word that originated in English replacing another word in English in common usage?

Joshua RodgersI'm curious if there's any cases of a word that originated in English (didn't come from a foreign source) replacing another word in every day usage?

The sound of leaves, he means psithurism?
That's a strange question indeed @kiamlaluno.
Not sure what the OP is getting at.
Or susurrus, @Vitaly.
8:49 PM
There must be like a zillion answers, not sure if the OP realizes that.
But what an erudite term! Thanks for teaching me a new word. I can't wait to use it and claim it for my own.
Now I miss playing Эрудит against my father.
Is it like 20 questions?
8:51 PM
Nope, it's like the Russian name for Scrabble.
@Vitaly: one of my hobbies is actually reading etymological dictionaries.
I guess he means a word that was originated from Old English, and that replaced a word originated from another language.
It's fascinating.
I just like finding out there are words for things that I didn't even know.
speaking about Scrabble, @RegDwight slovolom.ru
Another funny story, and then I have to go ...
8:52 PM
@kiamlaluno: I'm afraid that either way, the question is too broad.
And kind of pointless.
It's what I think too.
@Vitaly: try this one some time: kongregate.com/games/gabob/clockwords-prelude
When my elder son was five, he would ask me approximately 55,321 questions per day. So we were driving home one day and asking me questions, and at one point he asked me a question I didn't have a ready answer to. It was a conceptual question, and I didn't really understand it. I replied, "I don't even know if there's a word for that." He thought for a minute, then said. "If we don't have a word for something, does that mean we can't think about it?"
I nearly drove off the road.
I felt I should have majored in epistemology ...
Thanks, you've been great. I'll be here all week. Try the veal!
8:56 PM
Hehe, But did you answer, "that theory has actually been proposed and dismissed"?
Seriously, gotta run. Talk at you later.
Thanks for chatting. See you later
Bye @Robusto
Are there any "authoritative" source, for English language?
Q: What are your favorite English language tools?

stackerTo prevent myself from asking an obvious, silly question again, I would like to know which tools you find most useful, besides dictionaries. I found Corpus Concordance English is extremely useful to lookup collocations. Edit: Please, one tool per answer.

Some of these are pretty authoritative, I'd say.
8:59 PM
Yo, I've been thinking, why is there no books tag just now, and you posted that link
We kind of settled on this site not being a book discussion club @Vitaly, hence the absence of the tag.
A couple CW questions about dictionaries could have been allowed, though
Every now and then, such questions keep popping up, actually.
But I can't remember the last time.
I like the way mfg went about it on Atheism.SE
Do you think that up in I will go up to the stores is fairly useless?
9:04 PM
Linky, please?
Q: How should we manage books on atheism as questions?

mfgBooks are a great resource and reference for atheists. Atheists also have many interests and reasons for looking for resources. Just as Christianity books have many, many sub-categories, so can atheism. However, in trying to keep in line with the suggestions over at the stackexchange blog, we ar...

@kiamlaluno: I can totally see why he would say that, without any context.
Nice approach, indeed.
In that case, it's fairly useless also to the stores. She could have said I will go.
Anyway, folks, I have to leave. It's rather late already)))
See you later.
Bye @RegDwight
9:07 PM
Bye, RegDwight.
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