trash

Slereah

08:21

John Rennie

← 1 message moved from The h Bar

Kenshin

09:17

Hi Guys

Can anyone help me with an ethics question

Dawood ibn Kareem

We're not very ethical around here, I'm afraid.

Kenshin

that's a shame

Dawood ibn Kareem

10 mins ago, by John Rennie

@DawoodibnKareem Sam is being mischievous I'm afraid

@Kenshin What's on your mind?

Kenshin

Well I have heard of these ethical dilmenas

like a train is heading towards 10 people

Slereah

@Kenshin Multitrack drifting

Kenshin

09:19

and you can divert the train to hit just 1 person

should u do it

Slereah

Dawood ibn Kareem

You mean, you can save 10 lives at the cost of 1 life; and you're wondering why that's different from saving 9 lives?

Kenshin

I have a theory of ethics that can solve this ethical dilemna

and all other ethical dilemas

Slereah

Multi-Track Drifting

►

Kenshin

So my question is

Slereah

09:21

@Kenshin You might want to ask Doctor Leibniz

Kenshin

are these real dilemnas that philosphers face or just for the layman

because my theory can solve any ethical dilmna I have ever heard

so perhaps philosophers would be keen to hear my idea?

Slereah

Making a theory to solve ethical dilemma isn't hard, the hard part is convincing people that it is ethical

Kenshin

or have philosophers already solved these ethical dilemas?

Dawood ibn Kareem

Well, people in command of armies face this kind of thing a lot.

Slereah

spoiler : it never works

Kenshin

09:22

My theory can explain all ethics

Slereah

Morality is complicated and you can't satisfy everyone

Kenshin

Yes my theory is based on a few postulates

that result in a self consistent theory that matches observations pefectly

like QM I guess

so people may disagree

Dawood ibn Kareem

Like, I can kill someone who's going to murder 1000 people tomorrow; but I'm probably going to kill 30 innocent civilians in the process of doing so. So what do I do? This is REAL stuff.

Kenshin

Yeah my theory can tell u what to do there

Slereah

@Kenshin how do you make observations in the field of ethics

do u look at a thing

and point your ethics-meter at it

Kenshin

09:23

no my theory explains our perceived notion of ethics

just like QM explains our perceived notion of the point particle with defined position

the point particle doesn't exist, but we can explain why we perceve it

Slereah

yeah we're not interested

Kenshin

Similarly, ethics doesn't really exist, but can be explained

Slereah

plz feel free to tell the good people of Philosophy Stack Exchange

Kenshin

well I'm not here to share the theory

I'm just wondering tho, if philosphers really struggle with such ethical dilmenas like the one Dawood just posted

or if only layman struggle with those

Dawood ibn Kareem

OK, Kenshin, let's make it real. Should Theresa May sell arms to Muhammad ibn Salman, that she knows will be used against Yemenese civilians, if she can spend the money that ibn Salman gives her on the British health system, thus saving the lives of many British civilians?

Kenshin

09:25

I can answer that

the answer under my theory would be it depends on the details, but the theory can in principle explain what to do there

Slereah

@DawoodibnKareem Trick question, Theresa May would not spend it on healthcare!

Kenshin

The theory even can explain why people feel these questions are actually dilemnas

Dawood ibn Kareem

@Slereah I think she claims to, doesn't she? She certainly claims that the money from Saudi Arabia saves British lives.

John Rennie

@Slereah Astonishingly the Conservatives have just committed to a big increase in the NHS budget.

Slereah

Stunning indeed!

Kenshin

09:27

Does anyone here believe here that there is a fundementally right and wrong thing to do?

Dawood ibn Kareem

@Kenshin Not particularly. Let me give you an example. One of my colleagues donates a lot of money to charities that save animals' lives, such as WSPA and WWF. She never donates any money to charities that work with people, because she feels that animals are more deserving than humans. I on the other hand do the opposite. I give money to charities that save human lives, because I value human life higher than I value animal life. Her charitable spending matches her

values; my charitable spending matches my values. Neither of us is wrong or right - we simply have different values.

Kenshin

@DawoodibnKareem I too don't believe there is a right and wrong, but I think your argument there isn't right

Dawood ibn Kareem

@JohnRennie I wonder how those health workers would feel if they realised that their pay rises were made possible by an arms deal with a war criminal.

Kenshin

Just because people have differences in opinion, doesn't mean there isn't an underlying truth

Dawood ibn Kareem

@Kenshin They're not differences in opinion; they're differences in values.

Kenshin

09:34

So one person could believe in QM and another in classical and thing QM is wrong. This doesn't mean there isn't an underlying physics

@DawoodibnKareem well the implicit assumption your making is that right and wrong is simply a matter of values

but this could be challenged by someone who genunily belives in an objective right and wrong

I believe right and wrong is determined by individual values, but there are people out there who think there is absolute morality

Dawood ibn Kareem

@Kenshin No. But "grass is green and not red" is a fact. "Green is a better colour than red" is not something that can be right or wrong.

John Rennie

@DawoodibnKareem I understand this is an issue that matters to you so I'm not going to make any (ill informed) comments on it, but equating the NHS pay deal to money received from Saudi Arabia is sophistry, as I'm sure you know.

Kenshin

I agree with u, but what if someone was adamant that green really is better than red, objectively

Dawood ibn Kareem

@JohnRennie Yes, sure, but it's Theresa May's argument, not mine.

She has justified selling arms to Saudi Arabia on the basis that she can use the proceeds to save British lives.

John Rennie

Mar 20 at 8:46, by John Rennie

We should probably be cautious about overtly political discussions, but she won't be getting a Christmas card from me this year.

Dawood ibn Kareem

09:36

And she undoubtedly can.

(use the proceeds to save British lives that is, not receive a Christmas card from your good self)

Kenshin

I will now share one of the postulates of my theory

Dawood ibn Kareem

@Kenshin Then they are wrong.

John Rennie

@DawoodibnKareem do you have a citation for May's statement? I'm not doubting you, but I'm curious to know what was said and when.

Dawood ibn Kareem

@JohnRennie I can probably find one, with a little digging.

Kenshin

1. A rational individual will act in their own best interests

John Rennie

09:39

@DawoodibnKareem if it's going to be a hassle don't bother

Dawood ibn Kareem

@JohnRennie If you would like me to, I will. Not today though. Maybe in a day or two, if that's OK.

Kenshin

Does anyone wish to challenge the first postulate of my theory

John Rennie

@DawoodibnKareem Anyway, where did we leave you on physics and mathematical models? Still unconvinced?

Dawood ibn Kareem

@Kenshin Yes. It applies to people who don't have children. A rational mother will sacrifice her life for the lives of her children.

Kenshin

@DawoodibnKareem, yes but here the individual's own best interest is to look after the child

I allow the individual to define their interests

for which they act in

So best interest doesn't equal personal survival

but rather one will act in the way they feel is most right

Dawood ibn Kareem

09:41

A rational being might not have all the information they require, in order to act in their own best interests.

Secret

Super unethical example: Suppose I have a machine that can erase the universe and everything within it and keep it erased, will I push the button?

Slereah

what is "a rational individual"

Kenshin

@DawoodibnKareem, yes good critque there. I should adjust to say a rational individual will attempt to act in their best interest

Slereah

If you don't define this, it's not a rule, it's a definition

John Rennie

It sounds to me as though your first postulate is 1. A rational individual will act in a way I can post-rationalise as being in their best interests

Kenshin

09:42

@Slereah, well the postulate in a sense is defining rationality here

Slereah

So it's not a postulate

Kenshin

much like Newton's second law defines force

John Rennie

@Secret PUSH IT

Slereah

It's just a definition of what a rational individual is

Kenshin

Well think of it as Newton's second law, is that a postulate?

Slereah

09:43

Depends if you define forces otherwise!

Kenshin

@Slereah yes we can think of it as a definition then

Secret

Well, honestly, I wish I had that machine, but I don't bleh...

Kenshin

So by defining rationality according to my postulate, it allows me to then talk about the implications of interacting rational humans

I can then compare this to the real world and see if my theory matches reality

Slereah

what if there are irrational humans, god forbid

Kenshin

of course

that's plausible

but you're getting ahead of yourself

I've only at this stage defined rationality

for all you know the second postulate covers irrational humans

Secret

09:44

how can we deal with irrationality, we cannot even measure it?

Kenshin

@Secret under my definition, would could argue that no human is irrational

if one argues that even "crazy" people act according to their own drives and interests

Dawood ibn Kareem

@JohnRennie No, I'm not unconvinced. I'm a little vague on exactly where to draw the line between what's real and what isn't. But that's OK. Anyway, do you want me to drag up the quote from Mrs May? If so, I might prefer to get it to you by some mechanism other than posting it here, if you can suggest one.

Secret

well that sounds reasonable, you can argue that even crazy people have their own notions of goals and ideals

Kenshin

exactly @Secret

Dawood ibn Kareem

@Kenshin I thought Newton's second law defined mass?

Kenshin

09:47

Newton's three laws forms a self consistent system of mechanisms and definitions

John Rennie

@DawoodibnKareem are you on Facebook?

Kenshin

My theory of ethics is very similar

So a kid could argue that force isn't ma, but he woudl then need to construct his own self consistent theory that explains physics, using his own definition of the word force.

Similarly, one could argue that rationality isn't how I defined it, but my definition works well for my theory and predicts the real world well

Dawood ibn Kareem

@JohnRennie Actually no. I think I'm the only person in the world who is not.

John Rennie

@DawoodibnKareem I'm happy to post my e-mail address here for 60 seconds if you can grab it before I delete it again ...

Dawood ibn Kareem

OK, if you're sure.

Kenshin

09:51

won't it remain in the trash tho?

Dawood ibn Kareem

Got it.

Kenshin

got it

John Rennie

Cool :-)

Kenshin

I've subscribed you to my blog on new physics and ethics ideas

John Rennie

@Kenshin my gmail address isn't secret and I'm not fussed about chat room members having it, but I see no reason to leave it here in perpetuity for any Tom, Dick or Harry to read :-)

Dawood ibn Kareem

09:58

Well that seems to have been a conversation killer.

Kenshin

Ok

I will outline my theory of ethics for you guys in laymans terms

My theory is that ethics is merely a way of minimising conflict between relatively equally powerful beings who can cause harm to one another. Animals are rarely considered in our traditional ethical systems because they do little harm to us.

What is right and wrong then is merely a matter of the repercussions of the action (where the repercussions is the retaliation of other powerful beings who find out about it)

So is killing wrong? It is, if other powerful beings will be angry if u do it

Is killing an ant wrong?

No, because ants are weak and there will be no repercussion

Slereah

@Kenshin is advocating killing animals

Kenshin

lol

well if too many people start caring about animals

There will then be repercussions for doing so, and it will become wrong

For instance, people might find animlals to look "cute" and thus have an evolutionary urge to protect them as they woudl babies

Then harming animals may bring repercussion from those people who have such an emotional affection to the animals

Harming animals then becomes ethically "wrong" over time

This is why killing a dog is deemed to be worse than killing an ant

More humans care about dogs as companions than ants

Secret

It is kinda why when people hate some bad person in their office so much they won't just easily outright murder them, because the repercussion will be them going to jail or worse (depending on where you are on the planet)

laws may be partly based on this

Kenshin

Indeed, first there was social agreements, and then laws were introduced to give these agreements more power

My theory also explains the illusion of the utilitarianism principle

The utiltarianims principle is that the "right" action is the action that brings the greatest good to the greatest number

The reason for this fundementally hwoever, is that if you do the action that is most favourable to many equally powerful beings, there will be minimal negative repercussion

but the utilitarianism principle wouldn't count to ants, even if there are more ants than humans

However in an ant colony, the ants will have their own ethics, because ants are equally powerful relative to other ants

So ethical systems only really apply where the invididuals within the system have a similar level of power

You might for instance have a King lording over 1000 slaves. Most likely one would then observe the slaves forming their own ethical system among themsleves, but the King would likely fall outside their ethical system

Secret

10:11

So that means, as soon the individual or group managed to find a way to circumvent the negative repercussions (e.g. hacking, anonymity etc.) they will become significantly more powerful and they will start to ignore the ethics of their once equal power adversories?

Kenshin

indeed, and this is frequently observed

But such an individual should be cautious, becuase it is unlikely they will hold their advantagous power forever

Dawood ibn Kareem

Sorry, Kenshin, I'm not buying a word of it.

Kenshin

and when they lose it, they will face enourmous repercussion

Secret

You also mentioned that your theory will allow some objective notion of good and evil. So does your theory admit some notion of universal good and universal evil?

Kenshin

@DawoodibnKareem, because it is illogical, or because you have an emotional aversion to it?

Dawood ibn Kareem

10:13

Which part of your theory do you find illogical?

Kenshin

@Secret, no the theory gives rise to perceived actions of "good" and "evil" among individuals of similar power levels. But there is no universal good and evil in this system.

Secret

makes sense

Kenshin

@DawoodibnKareem, I don't know it seems logical to me. I was just wondering why you don't buy it

@Secret, but if one were to try and create laws based on my system, the "good" laws would be the ones that minimize conflict between beings of equal power, because under my theory that is the purpose of laws

Dawood ibn Kareem

Because most people, when faced with the choice of doing the right thing or doing the wrong thing, will prefer the right thing even when there are no repercussions from either choice.

Kenshin

@DawoodibnKareem, indeed, but the "right" thing, is usually the choice that would bring the least repercussion if all other beings knew what was done

and most choices come to light eventually, and people know this

Secret

10:16

One tangential question, because recently I am investigating politics with political parties and non political groups. We knew that legislations and enactment of laws are often the result of politics and laws are often a means to strengthen some notion of ethics, what is the role of politics in ethics (assuming politics does not have significant corruption and can function more or less like its idealistic counterpart)?

Kenshin

@DawoodibnKareem interesting, killing ants is wrong in Islam. I do believe my argument only applies to atheists. I think one could argue for absolute morality if one is religious.

Dawood ibn Kareem

Please be aware that the person who posted that answer doesn't speak for every Muslim; and not every Muslim has exactly the same set of beliefs. I shared it almost tongue-in-cheek.

Kenshin

@Secret well politics is intimately connected with ethics. Under my theory, ethics is about minimising conflict between powerful beings, and politics is a way of enforcing the rules that minimize this conflict.

Politics is the connection between ethics and law

Dawood ibn Kareem

Actually your argument extends very well to people who believe in some kind of god, or more specifically, some kind of divine system of reward and punishment such as heaven and hell.

Kenshin

Communities establish functional ethical principles, which they then wish to have codified into law. The politicians here are the middle men.

Dawood ibn Kareem

10:20

However, I still don't buy the theory. Sorry.

Kenshin

@DawoodibnKareem, no problem don't apoligize, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just formed this theory for my own understanding. I would appreciate to know why you dont' buy it tho

Balarka Sen

poop philosophy intensifies

Kenshin

My logic is undeniable

I'm sorry that the historical philosophers whom you worship hadn't thought of it

Balarka Sen

I am denying it just fine

I called it poop

Kenshin

yes but you're not denying it on a logical basis

Balarka Sen

10:23

Sure I am

Kenshin

Your definition of logic varies from the usual

Balarka Sen

My definition of logic is calling poop as poop :p

Slereah

@BalarkaSen a tip

Balarka Sen

Hahaha

cheers

Kenshin

John, I see that your decision depends on a mass outcry

Your actions indicate that you subscribe to my theory of ethics, whereby right and wrong depends on repercussions of other powerful beings

That said, I would support you deleting the discussion as I wouldn't want someone to come here, read my idea, and publish the work

John Rennie

10:27

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Kenshin

@Balarka Sen

John Rennie

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Kenshin

@Balarka Sen

I invited u to where u belong ;)

Feeds

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