English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

02:07

@Mitch flagged

Robusto

@Educ Sarcasm is a poor tool to use against the willfully ignorant. Ergo, I did not use it.

@Feeds "... the worst questions the mankind never had"? Sounds like someone is thinking in German again. Perhaps you were looking for die Menschheit? Maybe you need to practice your waning English skills in EL&U chat?

tchrist

02:32

@Robusto Why are you talking to Skynet?

Robusto

03:19

@tchrist Because Skynet is so much more understanding than our current government.

@Educ By the way, I'm happy to report that the Flat Earthers' message is spreading around the globe now.

Færd

03:36

Could you call clear plastic cups glasses?

@Mitch Erm, they say revert is always intransitive.

Mitch

13:43

@Færd That's not transitive. 'revert to an old version'

Lawrence

14:03

@Færd If you mean those hard plastic shallow cups that help with eyesight, I suppose you could. :P

CowperKettle

Help needed. I'm proofreading my own translation. Should I use the word sex or gender in a table column heading indicating the sex/gender of the persons taking part in a clinical trial, or are both synonymous?

Would gender be used more often by a native speaker in this context?

Lawrence

@CowperKettle Calling a field "sex" has bred jokes of people filling in "Yes" or "No". Calling it gender avoids this problem.

CowperKettle

Ha!

No problem in my case. The table cells are already filled ))

Robusto

@CowperKettle If you view gender as binary, you could use "M/F" as the column head there.

Tonepoet

14:32

@CowperKettle I would personally use either, but it is worth note that some people are arguing that sex should only be used for biology, and gender for mentality and social roles e.g. they would prefer to have a male to female trans person categorized under the female gender. Assuming that you have used a biological means of categorizing these people, sex is the less contentious choice in my opinion.

Feeds

15:34

0

Q: What is the opposite of perfect?

I need a word which is opposite of the word perfect. Any antonyms of perfect?

single-word-requests

CowperKettle

@Tonepoet Ah! Thank you! I'll use sex! I've been not using it nearly often enough.

Færd

17:36

@Lawrence fun107.com/files/2013/07/larry-cups.jpg?w=980&q=75

@Mitch "the name has been reverted to X" does indeed have revert as a transitive verb. The intransitive way would be "has reverted to X".

.

A friend of mine is turning a business he started up into a workers-owned one where employees are democratically elected, giving up his own ownership and, to a great extent, leadership on the way.

A tiny example of social democracy within a semi-totalitarian state.

Feeds

18:20

0

Q: Word for the opposite of "been-there-done-that"

Is there a word that means the opposite of been-there-done-that? For someone who isn't dismissive of things they've seen but is excited about it instead. Bonus: A single word for been-there-done-that attitude

single-word-requests

Cerberus

@Færd Sounds great!

Especially if those employees together are doing a lot more work than he ever put into the business.

Educ

18:49

@Robusto yes i see

Flat Earth - Edge of Space (Proof)

►

Feeds

19:29

0

Q: Is 'causatory variable' a word? How can I say that better?

For context: "There are too many exogenous causatory variables to count, but..." Is causatory even a word? How can I say it more succintly? What I am trying to say is there is a wide array of causal factors.

single-word-requests word-usage

Færd

@Cerberus Yeah. That's an important point. It's a cultural institute, so collective effort is really at the heart of its mission.

Cerberus

@Færd Hmm a cultural institute that is a private business?

Færd

Yes. It's a hostel that hosts tourists and aims at cultural exchange between Iranians and the rest of the world.

Cerberus

Indeed: if the founder put a lot of effort into conceiving and setting up the company, then he deserves a reward for that. But after having received lots of profit from the company based mostly on the work of his employees rather than his own work, there comes a point where they deserve more and he less.

Ah, I see.

Færd

Much of recent history seems to me to be the struggle between private and collective power.

Concentrated government and powerful corporations.

etc.

Cerberus

19:42

You could see all of history in that light.

Færd

I wonder if this small-scale policy can be implemented in a large scale.

Cerberus

Whether the private powers be companies, families, or other organisations. Or individuals.

Færd

@Cerberus Yeah.

Cerberus

@Færd It's basically a form of corporatism?

Færd

Well, one person originally launched it.

So privatism maybe?

I guess I misunderstood your question.

You mean if this small sample is magnified, it'll be another of the usual corporate businesses?

Cerberus

19:48

@Færd A corporation is conventionally not how some popular America media would use the word.

Færd

I see.

Cerberus

Corporatism

Corporatism, also known as corporativism, is the sociopolitical organization of a society by major interest groups, known as corporate groups (as well as syndicates, or guilds) such as agricultural, business, ethnic, labour, military, patronage, or scientific affiliations, on the basis of their common interests. It is theoretically based on the interpretation of a community as an organic body. The term corporatism is based on the Latin root word corpus (plural corpora) meaning "body" or, in the case of Fascist Italy, on the word corporazione (derived from the aforementioned Latin word, with the...

And perhaps more specifically:

Liberal corporatism

Liberal corporatism refers to the application of economic corporatism by liberal political parties and organizations, that recognizes the bargaining interests of multiple groups within society, such as in the business, labour, and agricultural sectors and licenses them to engage in bargaining over economic policy with the state. Liberal corporatism is often in conflict from proponents of liberal pluralism that opposes the granting of power to organized interest groups. English liberal philosopher John Stuart Mill supported corporatist-like economic associations as needing to predominate in society...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating characters in answer: Space After Semicolons? by zJordan the great on english.SE

Færd

OK so another nice term hijacked for personal profit.

Cerberus

@Færd Well, perhaps in some way; but I think Americans use the word corporation for some legal form that a company may take by their laws, one which is beneficial to large companies.

I don't know what they based that legal term on.

Færd

19:53

OK.

Feeds

0

Q: What do you call a _________ of cloth?

Something that refers to a collection of folded up cloth you'd buy at a store. An official term? I'm blanking.

single-word-requests meaning word-choice

Cerberus

@Færd Do you think the hijab will still be compulsory in public five years from now?

Rohani piqued my interest when he released that survey/report.

Færd

I'm seeing remarkable improvement in the dialogue between the regime and the public in terms of women's rights.

But that could be temporary. Another hardliner could come around and turn the tide.

But the slow sluggish movement of the people away from a fundamentalistic interpretation of religion is what cannot be resisted.

And that's what determines the future of many of these debates.

I don't know if it's going to be 5 years 15 years, but enforced hijab doesn't seem to have a place in the future of Iran.

Cerberus

20:16

@Færd Indeed.

My newspaper's has two authors who know a lot about Iran. In yesterday's article by one of them, she said she wasn't sure whether the current situation would turn things around with respect to compulsory hijab.

She also wrote that secularists also wore hijabs during the Revolution, when demonstrating against the Shah.

"I'm sure they regret that now", she added, as the Revolution was soon hijacked by fundamentalists.

Færd

There have been separate instances of several women standing on a high place and removing their hijab in a busy street in Tehran and the socio-politically most important one in the country.

I don't know how much of a new trend that constitutes.

Some try to drum it up as a new wave civic protest. I'm not sure.

@Cerberus Yes, hijab had a different meaning back then.

The first Pahlavi shah (the second to last of all Iranian monarchy) forcibly removed hijab off women's heads.

So hijab was a form of resistance back then.

Cerberus

@Færd I know...and several are still in prison, aren't they?

@Færd I know.

Færd

@Cerberus They aren't being treated as harsh as before.

Most of them have been released, I gather.

If they had ever been detained.

Cerberus

Yeah, and the religious police have been curtailed, haven't they?

Færd

In terms of cracking down on those with lax hijab, yeah, I think.

@Cerberus There are feminists who advise Muslim women to retain their habit to resist the Western cultural onslaught and preserve an independent identity.

Or something to that effect.

Cerberus

20:27

And they were wearing their hijabs for the same reason during the Revolution.

Færd

But that clashes with when retaining hijab is construed as conforming with the restrictive policies against women't right in those women's homelands.

Cerberus

I think it's good to resists the Western cultural onslaught.

But I think it's bad to resist even the good elements.

What I find particularly horrible is what happened to men's dress.

Færd

I think a middle way is possible to be found.

@Cerberus Where?

Cerberus

Men all over the world wear European suits on formal occasions. It's so terrible.

Færd

Ah. Yeah.

Cerberus

20:29

The death of so many elements of culture all over the world, and very visible ones.

That was perhaps the only thing I appreciated in Gaddafi...

Færd

Heh.

Cerberus

At least they have kept the turban in Iran, the Middle East, and the western Subcontinent.

Færd

I remember some students were confronted by the police (or whatever observatory unit it was) in our universities when they attended classes clad in their indigenous clothes.

Cerberus

That's horrible!

What did the police want them to wear?

Færd

The "normal" clothes that everyone else wore.

And they would respond that their clothes were more Iranian than everyone else's.

Not a serious conflict. I think the students won out eventually.

But it gives an alarming signal.

Cerberus

20:33

So what would those indigenous clothes have looked like, and what 'ordinary' clothes?

Færd

media.mehrnews.com/d/2016/07/02/3/2126714.jpg?ts=1478437009502 (as an example)

vs

Cerberus

Ah, that last picture looks very European, except the hijabs.

So I like the former better.

Only the waistcoats and shirts of the men look somewhat European?

So who wear turbans?

Only those with a certain religious rank?

Færd

@Cerberus Maybe the vests, yes, I dunno.

Could be an older Western influence.

@Cerberus Mostly those. And some of the people from eastern Iran.

But their turbans look different.

Cerberus

@Færd Yes.

@Færd Cool, what would you call those eastern people?

Færd

I'm not sure who exactly wear what kinds of turbans around Iran.

Some of the Khorasani people would be an example.

And some people from Sistan.

Cerberus

20:49

Nice.

I would associate that dress with dervishes.

I don't know why.

Færd

I can see that.

But those have their own kind of headgear.

Possibly their own kinds of headgear.

They all look different to me.

And then there are overlaps ...

Cerberus

No doubt.

Mitch

@Færd I don't think that's what 'intransitive' means. 'revert' doesn't have a direct object in either sentence.

Færd

It's used in the passive voice, as if it had a direct object.

That's equivalent to being used transitively.

Whatever.

I think transitivity is an over-hyped grammatical issue.

It's not as important as it's purported to be, methinks.

@Mitch So I'm not really objecting to your usage of revert. A literate native speaker would probably know better how to use it than me.

Mitch

@Cerberus Business casual FTW!

@Cerberus only religious people wear anything like a turban in Iran

Cerberus

21:05

@Færd A passive construction (with a non-dummy subject) is a transformation of a transititive construction.

Færd

@Mitch That's not true.

Cerberus

@Mitch The very large majority of Iranians are religious...

Mitch

@Færd there's labeling the thing and then there's what people normally say and what is 'good standard' to say.

Cerberus

But they don't all wear turbans.

Færd

@Cerberus That's waht I tried to say.

Cerberus

21:06

OK.

tchrist

@Færd Eek, Morris dancers!

Mitch

@Færd Do people who are not religious wear turbans?

Are there any religious people who do not wear turbans?

Færd

@tchrist Haha, without looking it up, I guess that's a tribe in one of Tolkien's works?

Long shot.

Cerberus

@Mitch What percentage of Iranians are irreligious, you reckon?

You're...tautologizing.

Færd

@Mitch Wearing that specail kind of turban is not a sign of religiosity in Iran.

Mitch

21:08

@Færd Worse. They're actual people. Who enjoy dancing ... of a particular sort. You should watch a youtube to get the full feel of it

Færd

It's a sign of having had official religious studies.

tchrist

@Cerberus The living ones who wish to stay that way.

Færd

If you were those clothes without authorization you could face legal confrontation.

@Mitch OK!

Mitch

@Cerberus No actually, but I am being pedantic. When I said 'Only religious people wear turbans' I mean that no one who is irreligious wears a turban. That allows that some religious people also do not wear them.

Færd

That's not true either.

Mitch

21:10

But what I really meant is that the only people who wear turbans day to day in Iran are religious leaders. Normal people who walk down the street do not.

Færd

Some provincial people wear turbans as a local custom.

Cerberus

@tchrist All religious people die?

Mitch

@Færd So what is the proportion of people religious and nonreligious, and turban wearing and non-turban wearing, and then proportions of those properties together?

Færd

That's a lot of questions!

In short, I don't know exactly.

Cerberus

@Mitch But it supplies very little information, almost everyone being religious.

Mitch

21:12

@Færd Oh OK. I'm not trying to be dogmatic, just what the general trend is. That is, there are likely to be exceptions to what I am saying.

@Cerberus On that, I don't think it is true.

Oh rather, sorry, by 'religious' I meant religious leaders.

Cerberus

So I don't think it adds very little information to say that religious people in Iran do x, because almost all of them are religious anyway.

@Mitch Uhh...

Okay.

Mitch

@Cerberus Right. Logically.

Cerberus

29 mins ago, by Cerberus

Only those with a certain religious rank?

Færd

@Mitch Those little exceptions could be rather populous areas.

Mitch

@Færd OK

Færd

21:14

:D

Mitch

Like where?

Færd

Eastern parts, mostly.

Extended into Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Mitch

Mashhad?

Færd

And India ...

Cerberus

And the number of people with a formal title of the required rank achieved at Qom will not be huge.

Mitch

21:15

India is not Iran

Færd

Haha sure.

I mean the more you go toward the East the more you see turbans wore as a custom.

Mitch

Do everyday people in Mashhad wear turbans?

Cerberus

@Mitch Don't tell that to the Moghul descendants!

Færd

@Mitch No. Mashhad is a big city.

Cerberus

Nor to those of the Parthian dynasties.

Færd

21:17

Turbans are worn mostly in provincial areas.

Cerberus

(At least I think the Parthians also occupied some parts of India at some point?)

Færd

@Cerberus Other seminaries around the country authorize the wearing of those clothes as well.

Many do.

We're in no shortage of those haha.

But comparatively, a minority, yes.

Mitch

@Cerberus Or the Safavids

or whichever Iranians got the peacock throne from whatever empire in India at the time

Færd

The Afsharid dynasty, do you mean?

Did any of them claimed India as a part of Iran? I don't think so. Nor did Indians ever convert to Iranianship.

Cerberus

@Færd Right.

Mitch

21:22

@Færd I don't know, I'm wiki-ing that right now.

Cerberus

@Færd I'm sure there were parts of India they might have liked to add to their empire!

Færd

Yeah.

Mitch

@Færd It looks like Nader Shah rushed in, got the throne, the Koh-i-noor diamond, and then was assassinated sometime thereafter. Yes, Afsharid.

Færd

Yeah that's a famous "feat" of his.

Mitch

All those dynasties hard to keep apart. Tudor, Burgundy Hohenzollern, Qajar, etc

Færd

21:25

Good thing they're all gone.

Mitch

I don't know. I have a small piece of my heart still reserved for the last dynasty of the Aztecs

badum. TISH!

Færd

I'm starting to blurt out nonsense. Gotta go.

Feeds

0

Q: What is the right word for "eliminating" a law?

Let's say there is a Law in my country and I think it should be "abolished", what is the proper word to use for asking that ? I tough of : eliminate, get rid off, eradicate, erase, abolish, terminate. But I don't know which word is the correct "law" vocabulary to use. Example : "The Law of Grav...

single-word-requests

Færd

See ya.

Mitch

Just starting? I come here already that way.

SmokeDetector

22:27

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Does "criticism" imply positive as well as negative? by Justin Chen on english.SE

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…