The Nineteenth Byte

DJMcMayhem

9:00 PM

Did you? I don't remember

Zacharý

I attempted to summon you

caird coinheringaahing

I still genuinely don't know if DJ actually has the autoping system whenever someone says DJ :P

Zacharý

://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/42627649#42627649

DJMcMayhem

@Zacharý See, when people say things like "DJ appears whenever someone mentions brain-flak", they're forgetting one simple fact:

I never leave this room :P

caird coinheringaahing

@Different RO, kick DJ please? :P

Poke

9:01 PM

I'm in chat on my phone and was prompted to enable wifi. Interesting. I can't see chat using that much data

Conor O'Brien

@Adám well since Dennis claims he draws inspiration from J, the equivalents would probably be [ and ]

Zacharý

It causes you to stop idling

Erik the Outgolfer

DJ has already been the test hamster for a lot of kicks, we don't need to kick him more ;)

DJMcMayhem

That's true, I have request kicks many times (3? 4? idk)

Erik the Outgolfer

also from when do we do targeted censorships here :P

caird coinheringaahing

9:02 PM

@DJMcMayhem Would you mind kicking me? I don't think I've ever experienced it.

Adám

@SnivyDroid For various mathematical functionality and array mangling you can call APL from within Python.

DJMcMayhem

@cairdcoinheringaahing Uhhh, sure? If you really want me to I can

Zacharý

Best method to get kicked is to somehow deserve to be PUNished...

Adám

@ConorO'Brien Yes, exactly.

Zacharý

@Adám praise marinus

caird coinheringaahing

9:03 PM

@DJMcMayhem Yeah, why not? It can't hurt

DJMcMayhem

RIP @cairdcoinheringaahing

You will be missed for the next 60 seconds

Poke

@DJMcMayhem is that the kick command

Mr. Xcoder

I’ll kick him from another room too :P

mınxomaτ

Uhm

Zacharý

LOL

Erik the Outgolfer

9:04 PM

yeah, looks like minxomat was here too, and he heard the kick

caird coinheringaahing

@DJMcMayhem I'm back :P

Mr. Xcoder

This user has been kicked and cannot return for the next 5 minutes... Lol?

Adám

@Zacharý Absolutely! If you look in the Orchard you'll see that Pavel just managed to let Mathematica call APL through its ExternalEvaluate["Python",] an Py'n'APL.

caird coinheringaahing

Am I just getting kicked in a bunch of rooms?

mınxomaτ

@EriktheOutgolfer How I learned that my speakers were still on high volume next door.

DJMcMayhem

9:05 PM

Yeah, don't kick for no reason. It will raise flags after enough times

Zacharý

Now, can we do the reverse?

DJMcMayhem

@mınxomaτ Sorry about that

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Sorry :P I wanted to see what kicking someone feels like.... Hope you’re not offended :p

caird coinheringaahing

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Erik the Outgolfer

and the worst...they will lose the ability to create rooms

Poke

9:06 PM

@Zacharý unkick or invite

Zacharý

Power drives people to insanity

Mr. Xcoder

Can I unkick users from my rooms?

Zacharý

I'm talking about APL calling Mathematica

*kick

trichoplax

Please don't raise unnecessary flags. It notifies mods and high rep users across the network

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Nope. A kick can't be taken back.

Adám

9:07 PM

@Zacharý No, we looked into it. It seems that the only way to do so would be prohibited by Wolfram's licence.

Mr. Xcoder

Sorry then :| Let’s say it was a test

Anonymous

Only a mod can undo the ban on creating rooms after a user has been kicked 3 times in a short enough time span

Poke

SE kick implementation seems more like a time ban

Zacharý

@trichoplax Jon Skeet? /s

Anonymous

Use RO powers wisely and don't cause trouble

Poke

9:08 PM

Rip aol

Zacharý

@Adám aren't there open implementations of Mathematica, or at least a subset of it?

caird coinheringaahing

> You'll be allowed to talk again in 50 seconds.

5 minutes takes a while :P

Mr. Xcoder

Yeah my bad D::D

Erik the Outgolfer

and the third is 10 minutes, after that it's 10 minutes but with a custom flag too

Poke

@cairdcoinheringaahing roughly 5 minutes? :)

Mr. Xcoder

9:09 PM

At least you’ve had time to add the dotted padding :P

caird coinheringaahing

I know that kicking JHTBot kills it for some reason :P

Zacharý

What is JHTBot?

caird coinheringaahing

A bot for JHT

Zacharý

Oh jelly hyper training

Mr. Xcoder

A bot for JHT that is currently not working due to SE changes and weirdness

Anonymous

9:10 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer Custom flag happens on the third

Adám

@Zacharý I don't think so.

Anonymous

And also every kick after the third

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder No, it's working (just not running)

trichoplax

Also the third is 30 minutes

Zacharý

Mathics?

Erik the Outgolfer

9:11 PM

@trichoplax uh what

Mr. Xcoder

Oh really? Great, when did that happen :p

Erik the Outgolfer

I think automatic suspension is 30 minutes...

Zacharý

@Mego I've learned not to go too far, I think...

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder About a week ago. The problem was that I commented out the chatbot.login() call ಠ_ಠ

trichoplax

@EriktheOutgolfer Yes that is also 30 minutes

Anonymous

9:12 PM

78

A: A guide to moderating chat

What tools are available to room owners? Room owners are users that have some elevated permissions in a chatroom. Typically, they will be the first line of defense when it comes to inappropriate content or behavior in a room. Users will look to the room owners to guide the room. The room owners...

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh god ಠ_ಠ

Adám

@Zacharý But that wouldn't even need a separate bridge; it's just a Python library, no?

Zacharý

Ah, I see... One could always find a separate license with Wolfram

I mean, didn't Dennis receive a separate license for both Mathematica and Dyalog?

Don't mass ping

SnivyDroid

Sorry

Zacharý

So, you're Canadian /s

SnivyDroid

9:17 PM

No...

caird coinheringaahing

I have a friend who apologises for literally anything. Someone tripped him, then he apologised :/

Zacharý

/s denotes sarcasm

SnivyDroid

Oh

ok

The other room is dead

n v m

Zacharý

You'll eventually learn the conventions of this place

@SnivyDroid what room

MD XF

Language Development

caird coinheringaahing

9:18 PM

I'm coining it. The TNB link effect: Someone links to a room, and at least 5 people more than intended go into the room at once.

9

Zacharý

A corollary occurs with moved messages

Anonymous

@Zacharý Exception: the Trash room (by virtue of it being a gallery room)

Anonymous

Also @SnivyDroid I'd be happy to move the relevant messages from here to that room for organization

MD XF

@Mego Please do

(I know, you weren't pinging me, I think they should be moved though)

SnivyDroid

Alright

Anonymous

9:21 PM

→ 4 messages moved to Language Development

MD XF

@Mego There are alot more farther up btw

Anonymous

I'm working my way up

MD XF

Oh ok thanks

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego where your access requests are ignored

trichoplax

@cairdcoinheringaahing By linking from one room to another, and from there back, you can build up an infinite number of chatters

Anonymous

9:23 PM

@MDXF Eh, they're off the page now, so unless there's some pressing reason to move them, I'm gonna leave them

MD XF

@Mego Alright sounds good

Anonymous

@EriktheOutgolfer I distinctly remember some mod being annoyed by users repeatedly requesting access to Trash. Best not to do that.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego I've only requested access once, and since then it's been ignored, no accept or deny, haven't repeatedly requested access

Anonymous

@EriktheOutgolfer I didn't mean to imply that it was you. But it's best not to request access to a room unless you have an actual reason for it.

Erik the Outgolfer

I'm a RO on another room and I may want to trash spammy conversations one day, that's the reason

I don't want to have to wait until I get access after the spam happens :P

(and the reason of probably everybody else requesting access there, there are over a dozen or two requests atm iirc)

caird coinheringaahing

9:28 PM

You don't have to be an RO to move messages into a gallery do you? Although it would make sense if you do

trichoplax

You have to be a room owner of the room being moved from

Erik the Outgolfer

you need to have write access, but that's a place where it doesn't make sense to request access if you aren't a RO on another room

Anonymous

@cairdcoinheringaahing No, but you do need write access

trichoplax

Whether you need write access to the gallery I haven't tested (but I'd hope so)

Wow ninjad twice

(and with more complete info)

Anonymous

The reason the TNB ROs have write access is because a) TNB tends to attract more trash messages than other rooms due to its popularity, b) the majority of the TNB ROs aren't mods, and c) we bugged ArtOfCode and Thomas until we were added :P

DJMcMayhem

9:30 PM

C is probably the more relevant one :P

trichoplax

(although not a hint to anyone else to try :P)

Zacharý

@DJMcMayhem C is no longer relevant... C++ is a thing (but shouldn't be) :p

Anonymous

We bugged them because there was a pressing need (us batch-3 ROs couldn't Trash stuff once Trash became a gallery, which was a big problem for TNB)

DJMcMayhem

@Zacharý You nerd :P

Erik the Outgolfer

c) is pretty much the only thing one can do until they get write access though

trichoplax

9:33 PM

Writely so

Zacharý

D is still superior though.

MD XF

D is so little-known

Zacharý

@trichoplax HAHA!

@MDXF But IIRC it's going into GCC... might have misremembered that

MD XF

@Zacharý Indeed but GCC supports alot of things that are not well-known at all

like FORTRAN

Zacharý

FORTRAN WAS well known

MD XF

9:35 PM

How old is D?

Zacharý

About as old as I am (16-17)

MD XF

I don't think it's magically going to become more popular

Zacharý

Could happen that something is written in D, but I won't count on it. It's better than Fortress (and possibly APL) in terms of knowledge of it, considering it's C based.

wizzwizz4

@Zacharý Autocorrect. FTFY: Fortran.

Zacharý

No

I meant fortress.

mudkip201

9:38 PM

@wizzwizz4 depends on which version :P

Zacharý

It would've been a good language

wizzwizz4

@Zacharý Not another one.

Zacharý

grumble Stupid Oracle

wizzwizz4

It's not on esolangs.org, so I presume that it either doesn't exist or is maybe somewhere near sane.

I assume the former.

mudkip201

Fortress (programming language)

Fortress is a discontinued experimental programming language for high-performance computing, created by Sun Microsystems with funding from DARPA's High Productivity Computing Systems project. One of the language designers was Guy L. Steele Jr., whose previous work includes Scheme, Common Lisp, and Java. == Design == The name "Fortress" was intended to connote a secure Fortran, i.e., "a language for high-performance computation that provides abstraction and type safety on par with modern programming language principles". Language features included implicit parallelism, Unicode support and concrete...

:P

Zacharý

9:42 PM

Sane ... somewhat. It's in the vein of APL with symbol usage, but has order of operations and can be ASCII only

I've answered in it once for the OEIS challenge

Floor is the left floor character, the argument, then the right floor character

totallyhuman

that's always nice tbh

make your mathematical expressions look mostly like math

Zacharý

But ... the problem is that it's not implemented fully in the versions I can find, making programming in it hard.

And 5×2+3 is 13 cough APL cough

caird coinheringaahing

What is it in APL? 25?

Zacharý

Yep

caird coinheringaahing

ಥ_ಥ

Zacharý

9:54 PM

It makes sense as to why, but for a language that's inspired by mathematical notation in any way, that seems odd

Pavel

@cairdcoinheringaahing APL is evaluated Right-To-Left always

mudkip201

weird

wizzwizz4

Why is APL evaluated in backwards reading order?

Adám

@Zacharý 3+5×2 is 16 cough Jelly cough

Erik the Outgolfer

Jelly goes from left to right...

Pavel

9:58 PM

@mudkip201 Every APL builtin is an infix operator, so rather than having a collosal list of operator precedences, it's easier to just have them all be equal precedence.

Zacharý

They're functions

Not operators :p

Adám

@wizzwizz4 Two reasons: Because -A and f(x) suggest right to left, and to mirror English: The sum of 3 times A to the power of the product of B: +/3×A*×/B

wizzwizz4

@Adám Oh. I just speed up and slow down to suggest (parenthesis).

Adám

@wizzwizz4 Right, but that's like spoken English's equivalent of parentheses. APL has parentheses too, but a plain reading order of English executes right to left, and so too in APL. If APL was left to right, you'd write A- and and (x)f which would make mathematicians frown even more, methinks.

wizzwizz4

@Adám Well, I suppose APL needed consistency.

And it's something that throws you every time you read a well-known formula until you "get it".

Zacharý

10:05 PM

You don't even write f(x), you write f x

Adám

@wizzwizz4 Yes, that was the whole idea. Modify existing mathematics to become consistent and generalised. Ability for a computer to execute it was just possibility.

Uriel

@wizzwizz4 most of programming languages are written from the right to the left. log(sqrt(sum(map(ord, 'Hello!'))))

wizzwizz4

Seriously? APL is a notation first?

Pavel

Can we get a lock on best-of nominations? @Dennis

Zacharý

Everything is RTL in APL

wizzwizz4

10:06 PM

If I'd known that, I would've learned APL earlier. :-)

Riker

@Zacharý not arabic or postfix languages

Erik the Outgolfer

@Pavel flag :-P

wizzwizz4

@Uriel Oh yeah.

Zacharý

As noted by 5×3+2

@Uriel You heard APL

@Riker Arabic is RTL (in writing direction)

Riker

@Pavel I'm makign one more edittttttt

@Zacharý then hebrew

Pavel

10:08 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer our mods don't exactly deal with flags in a timely manner

Zacharý

Same thing!

Riker

oh, yea

Zacharý

English is written LTR.

Adám

@wizzwizz4 Yes. It was originally called Iverson's notation. Iverson was a foremost mathematician, not a computer scientist. Wikipedia lists "mathematical notation" as only inspiration for APL.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Pavel well, I'd say one day isn't big of a trouble here

MD XF

10:08 PM

@Zacharý :o wow I never realized

Uriel

@wizzwizz4 the reason to the confusion is that APL resembles other one-char commands langs like befunge or 05ab1e that are associated with stack-paradigm, therefore left-to-right

Zacharý

Talking to Riker here <insert Star Trek reference>.

Pavel

@EriktheOutgolfer I'm talking about multiple-week-old outstanding flags

Erik the Outgolfer

those are mostly comment flags...

Uriel

@Riker hebrew is also RTL

Adám

10:10 PM

@wizzwizz4 Well, you're welcome to join my weekly classes in the APL Orchard.

wizzwizz4

@Uriel To my mind, APL is stack based but the commands go on the stack, not just the data. Like functions calls.

Erik the Outgolfer

APL... stack-based?

Adám

@wizzwizz4 ‽

Zacharý

> Note to self: implement stack based APL

wizzwizz4

@Adám Well...

Adám

10:11 PM

@Zacharý Jelly is kind-of like that.

Uriel

@wizzwizz4 I tried to design an APL interpreter basing on that view. long story short, not recomended

New Bounties With No Deadlines

0

A: List of bounties with no deadline

2000 reputation for a quine in Cubically v1.3 I've extended Cubically alot and it's much easier to program in. It's still incredibly difficult so the 1000-point bounty is still up. However, I'm very convinced that a quine in the original language is impossible, but I'd love to be proven wrong, s...

wizzwizz4

I meant "call stack" sort of stack.

MD XF

^^ please?

Zacharý

@Adám That's APLified stack based J

wizzwizz4

10:11 PM

Plus, I have a strange brain.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám well, that stretches the definition of a stack a bit tbf

Pavel

@Adám Jelly not being stack based is what sperates it from most other golf langs.

Erik the Outgolfer

not that stack-based :p

Adám

I know it technically isn't, but it sure acts as if it was.

Uriel

@Zacharý yea, weird language

Erik the Outgolfer

10:13 PM

btw I think Haskell is way more like that than Jelly, but then again in Haskell functions are first-class objects

Pavel

@Riker TYVM for competition in the Kansas City Shuffle category!

Riker

np

@Pavel I figured I might as well

Zacharý

I got the Allegro D binding to work (game development), woohoo

Riker

somebody else posted it for another cat tho

Dennis

@Pavel Done.

Pavel

10:22 PM

@Dennis Great, thanks.

Uriel

@Pavel how's the vote gonna be executed?

DJMcMayhem

Probably on comments, just like with the last one

Pavel

By the way, I won't be able to access a computer for a bit, so help editing everything would be much appreciated! Please follow the model of last year's best-of: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/11186/…

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel I think last year we had a mod do it so that it could be locked before being finished

wizzwizz4

> 00:00:03Z

So close...

Erik the Outgolfer

10:27 PM

no, slow internet

> featured

:D

from the sidebar:

Destructible Lemon

I like how 99% of uses of pythons with <expression> as <variable> is that one copy pasted piece of code about opening text files

Erik the Outgolfer

> Best of PPCG 2017 — Now Accepting Nominations!

Anonymous

@DestructibleLemon That's one of the more useful, common ways of using context managers. It's also common to use it for network connections.

Destructible Lemon

it seems like it would be a clean way of using variables you're only using one time but that has to be kept consistent because its referenced multiple times that one time, for example if you're using random.randint(0,2) to pick an option, and then not using it afterwards

ok one time referenced multiple times is not necessarily my greatest phrasing

but you get the point

it seems a little bit weird that the only way i encountered the syntax was that one bit of sample code though

errored on the line

thats why noone uses it

AttributeError: __exit__

I guess thats why noone uses it

Pavel

10:43 PM

@Dennis We have a problem: Only mods can edit the nomination post now. I should have deleted it instead of asking for a lock.

Erik the Outgolfer

you couldn't have deleted it yourself anyway

Pavel

Oh, really?

Well, either way, it should be deleted and not locked

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel Last year, the voting post was a separate post by a mod, locked immediately, and then only unlocked once all the answers/comments are ready for voting

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem Nope. It was an edit of the nominations post.

DJMcMayhem

Oh.

I could have sworn it was a new post

Pavel

10:45 PM

I think we need a mod to do the work here.

Crap

@Dennis @Doorknob @MartinEnder Anyone around? Can we get a mod for the best-of post?

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

The NX source-length problem On PPCG, we have had lots of challenges where the length of your output is dependent on the length of your source code. For the purposes of this challenge, we will call these Source-length problems. The two most well known examples of source-length problems are Ou...

Dennis

11:04 PM

@Pavel I can do it tonight.

Pavel

@Dennis Thanks!

H.PWiz

@Neil I really like your answer here. The way it recursively applies that gate is fantastic (note that I think it is actually 7×7+1=49 vertices but that the number of edges that you put is correct)

MD XF

11:23 PM

With no further objections I'm posting this in an hour.

Unless someone posts a really popular challenge before that.

H.PWiz

@MDXF I haven't read the rules for that in a while, but, excluding the fact that answers should be original, would FRACTRAN count?

MD XF

@H.PWiz Yes, that's valid

Hm should I add some kind of rule to say that you can post implementations and explanations of pre-existing OISC's, but they must be marked non-competing and CW? Just so that we can get lots of interesting OISC's highlighted on PPCG

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Is it Mountainous? For this challenge, a mountainous string is one that conforms to the grammar rule M: x(Mx)* where at each production, the all x's are the same character. When indented, a mountainous string might look something like this: A B C D C E F E C B A As you ca...

MD XF

11:39 PM

Would /// count as only having one instruction?

totallyhuman

11:50 PM

Yeah I'd say so

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