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1:02 AM
Hello
I need more people to join me in TNB
we talking about calc stuff and would love another person
 
@MatheinBoulomenos why is there no $\sqrt{-6656} = 16\sqrt{-26}$ in the roots although the discriminant is $-6656$?
 
TNB?
 
what is TNB
 
that's what i said
 
1:13 AM
1
Q: Finite Number of Principal Ideals

user193319 Let $R$ be a unique factorization ring and $d$ a nonzero element of $R$. There are only a finite number of distinct principal ideals that contain the ideal $(d)$. Suppose that $d \neq 0$ is not a unit. Then $d = d_1 ... d_n$ for irreducible/prime elements $d_i$; and suppose that $(d) \subse...

 
Hey guys, I'm just gonna ask an incredibly easy question and then go
And it is a little neck exercise for you apparently
I'm in college studying physics but can't solve a simple polynomial question, pls don't judge
 
I don't think anyone here judges
 
I can't judge

 The Nineteenth Byte

The Nineteenth Byte: General discussion for codegolf.stackexc...
 
@NV-US Thank you
 
1:30 AM
So no one is gonna halp me :(
 
Well, for one thing the picture is sideweays
If you're asking for help, you want to minimize the amount of work the other person has to do
 
"And it is a little neck exercise for you apparently"
Alright lemme fix it :D
 
what is the s
oh possessive apostrophe s
i see
lol
Solve that system
 
nope, nvm.
 
1:39 AM
I can't solve it, that is the problem
Nevermind what?
 
hold up
 
@LeakyNun that polynomial has Galois group $S_4$ over $\Bbb Q$, so it contains a lot of quadratic subfields. Also note that the expression of a number in terms of radicals is non-unique for example, the roots of $x^4-10x^2+1$ may be written as $\pm \sqrt{2} \pm \sqrt{3}$ or as $\pm \sqrt{5\pm 2\sqrt{6}}$
 
but surely it must contain the discriminant?
 
You have Ax = Bx
and -2A + 4 = B + 7
 
@LeakyNun it does, but it need not be apparent in every radical expression of the roots
 
1:41 AM
Ya orbit-stabilizer got what I was just about to say
 
Do you see how we get that @IşıkKaplan
 
@MatheinBoulomenos but... but...
why would it contain a lot of quadratic subfield? I thought there would be only one
since $\Bbb A_4$ is the unique subgroup of order $2$ of $\Bbb S_4$
 
What's the Galois group of that polynomial?
 
No, I have no idea how did you get it
 
@MatheinBoulomenos $\Bbb S_4$ it is
 
1:42 AM
Oh yeah, you're right
 
Good.
Now solve that, and you shouldb e able to figure it out
 
Hmm, this is strange
 
Oh oops
 
Oh my god
 
@IşıkKaplan thought you said i was right, but it was @MatheinBoulomenos
So, distribut teh A and the B
What do you end up with?
 
1:43 AM
A(x-2)+4 = B(x+1)+7 means Ax = Bx
I'm an idiot
 
Yes to your first statement, no to your second
 
I didn't see this whole this time
 
It happens
 
Provided A and B are constant independent of x
 
I've been trying to solve this over an hour xD
Oh my I love calculus
It is way easier xD
 
1:45 AM
I feel you. I was trying to show that a group of order 36 acts non-trivially on a set of size 4 for an hour until I realized it was a 2 liner
 
That equation is an example of something I am bad at. For me, I often just conclude it is one equation in two unknowns, and then get stuck. I am bad at special cases like Ax=Bx
 
Thank god I'm not alone @orbit-stabilizer :D
 
@orbit-stabilizer orbit-stabilizer...
 
I know :(
 
but it can act trivially?
 
1:48 AM
Well, sure.
A group can act on any set trivially
 
Hey what up
 
$\forall g \in G$, $\forall x \in X$, we have $ g\cdot x = x$
 
Some set theory comments:
1. I need to find a model of ZF-P to mimic the ability for powersets to generate uncountable sets in a more controlled manner order to bypass the problem that no uncountable sets can be explicitly well ordered
2. $\aleph_1$-dedekind finite sets should still survive under ZF+DC I think... since DC only allow you to pick a countable sequence from any arbitrary set with some relation...
 
@LeakyNun the only explanation I know is that this is similar to the casus irreducibilis in some sense. $\sqrt{78}$ is contained in the expression of the roots, but it's not contained in the field itself, just like the cubic root of unity is not contained in the field in the casus irreducibilis
 
Some definition: A $\aleph_{\alpha}$-dedekind finite set is a generalisation of a dedekind finite set in that all self injections are bijective and it does not contain a subset of cardinality $\aleph_{\alpha}$
So, such sets can only have subsets of the form:
$\beta <\aleph_{\alpha}$-dedekind finite sets, finite sets, countable sets
 
2:02 AM
@MatheinBoulomenos I don't think this is the case...
 
12
Q: Uncountable subset with uncountable complement, without the Axiom of Choice

NunoLet $X$ be a set and consider the collection $\mathcal{A}(X)$ of countable or cocountable subsets of $X$, that is, $E \in \mathcal{A}(X)$ if $E$ is countable or $X-E$ is countable. If $X$ is countable, then $\mathcal{A}(X)$ coincides with the power set $\mathcal{P}(X)$ of $X$. Now suppose that $X...

 
@MatheinBoulomenos the quadratic subfield is clearly $\Bbb Q[\sqrt{78}]$ instead of $\Bbb Q[\sqrt{-78}]$ as predicted by the discriminant
 
I really like how quasinfinite sets like the infinite dedekind finite sets basically have an onion like structure but nevertheless inexhaustible
 
@MatheinBoulomenos I don't know if it was you, but I found an easier solution to $2^n(2^{n!}-1) \equiv 0$ (mod $n!$)
that doesn't involve legendre polynomials
 
I don't necessary want to use full choice, but I would like to have DC to retain Baire Category Theorem and other important results in analysis
 
2:16 AM
@BalarkaSen
I suggest GH
it pretty good book
 
Hey there everybody!
 
2:34 AM
hi @Daminark
@Daminark you know once I am done with my masters we should read some advanced book together
 
That could be interesting! Hopefully by then I'll know a bit more math and be able to keep up :P
I'm learning more complex analysis so there's that
 
Awesome
I would like to take General relativity at some point at my life in University
I want to understand how mass bends space time to give arise to gravity mathematically
I think it should be accessible since I will under differential and complex geometry pretty well by then
 
You study it through the curvature of the spacetime manifold :)
 
cool @gian
So you have a specail manifold and the curvature gives rise to gravity ?
 
Yeah, though do note that things work strangely, you'll have a non-Riemannian metric
 
2:41 AM
cool
 
Essentially, but I'm pretty sure you use a geodesic metric
Someone correct me if I'm wrong
 
Not exactly sure what that means but I'll take it
 
I'm no physicist lol
 
I mean yeah I'm pretty crap at physics (and geometry) so... shrug
 
It just means that given any 2 points there is a path in the manifold between the two points
and we can uniquely talk about the distance between the 2 points
the metric is pseudo-riemannian, but its not arbitrarily crazy
 
2:46 AM
Huh
 
cool
 
Anything interesting you guys are up to?
 
@Daminark the discriminant of $X^4 - 4X + 1$ is $-6656$ yet $\sqrt{-78}$ is never found in any of the roots
 
3:03 AM
I'm studying stratified spaces.. not sure if that's interesting @Daminark
 
@gian not sure what those are but it sounds cool!
@Leaky I only know what the discriminant is for quadratic polynomials, what does it mean in general?
 
@Secret I'm pretty sure almost no one knows what you're talking about
 
One thing I do need to check is whether it is possible to have two infinite dedekind finite subsets that are equinumerous to each other
 
I cringe at the set theory @Secret
 
3:06 AM
orbit-stablizer: Leaky and probably other set theory people may know what I am talking about
(grrrr this chat need a filter function)
 
@Daminark let $x_1, \cdots, x_n$ be the roots of an $n$-degree polynomial. $\delta = \prod_{j<k}^n (x_j - x_k)$ is not fixed by $\Bbb S_n$, but $\delta^2$ is. The discriminant is $\delta^2$
 
@Secret your blog any closer to existing?
 
@Daminark since $\delta^2$ is a symmetric polynomial, by the fundamental theorem of symmetric polynomials, it is a polynomial in the coefficient of the $n$-degree polynomials
take $ax^2+bx+c$. $\Delta = (x_1-x_2)^2 = (x_1+x_2)^2 - 4(x_1x_2) = (-b/a)^2 - 4(c/a) = (b^2-4ac)/a^2$
 
@Leaky what's $\mathbb{S}_n$? Do you mean the group of permutations?
 
3:09 AM
@Daminark yes
 
Usually denoted just $S_n$
 
yes
but i am cool and dank and special
 
Some use $\Bbb{S}^n$ to denote the $n$-sphere.
 
Changing up notation isn't exactly cool/dank so much as confusing... but okay so wouldn't you need to multiply it by $a^2$ then? Like the discriminant of a quadratic is classically $b^2 - 4ac$, I thought
@gian when you first wrote $\mathbb{B}^n$ I was like, okay that's just disgusting
 
@Daminark it doesn't matter; $a$ cannot be $0$ anyway
 
3:12 AM
I made a mistake lol
$\Bbb{B}$ would denote the ball I guess
 
@Daminark its significance in Galois theory is that $\Bbb Q[\delta]$ must be a subfield
and multiplying by $a$ hardly matters
 
It will be convenient if it is legal to write axioms as if they are maps between models
 
3:28 AM
I think I can demonstrate one example. Take an infinite dedekind finite set $D$. Pick out 5 elements $\{x\}_i$ (a choice function always exists in ZF for a finite family) and compute $A=D-\{x\}_i$. Now take $D$ again, but this time, pick out a disjoint set of 5 elements $\{y\}_i$ and compute $B=D-\{y\}_i$. Then it should follow that $|A|=|B|$ since we can demonstrate a bijection by pairing D with D, and the 5 element sets with the 5 element set
I will be surprised if it is consistent with ZF that there can exists sets whoose cardinality of it subsets depends on the nature of the elements being picked out and not just the number
 
3:50 AM
It always seems like Secret is typing an essay to him/herself.
 
I am working very hard to understand my master thesis topic
I am getting close though
@Daminark
 
What's the thesis on exactly?
 
It is something in complex geometry and homological algebra
I changed my supervisor late though so I had to cover many background material by myself
but I am almost done
almost done at least getting the required material to begin
 
@Adeek Are you looking at some specific conjecture/some difficult known theorem?
 
4:41 AM
@Daminark you here?
I've got a group theory question
 
Any topologists here?
 
Sorry Ted and Balarka aren't here right now, but if you'd like ot leave a message I can have them get back to you
 
Can I provide a link?
0
Q: Confusion about locally cone-like spaces

gianDefinition: A filtered space $X$ of formal dimension $n$ is locally cone-like if for all $i$, $0 \le i \le n$, and for each $x \in X^i - X^{i-1} = X_i$ there is an open neighborhood $U$ of $x$ in $X_i$, a neighborhood $N$ of $x$ in $X$, a compact filtered space $L$, and a homeomorphism $h:U \time...

 
Oh THAT kind of topology
 
What type of topology were you thinking?
 
4:50 AM
@orbit-stabilizer I can try
 
I have an action of a group of order 36 acting on its 4 3-sylow subgroups by conjugation
I have to find the kernel... but I'm having a hard time doing that
the kernel is this set $\{g\in G : g \cdot x = x\}$
Where of course x is in this case a 3-sylow subgroup
 
Hmm
So we have a homomorphism from this group to $S_4$
 
I was thinking about some kind of differential topology
 
yup $\phi : G \rightarrow S_4$
 
So the size of the image must divide 12
It can't be 1 since this action is transitive (in particular, non-trivial)
 
4:54 AM
24?
why 12?
 
It has to divide 36 and 24
 
oh you're right my bad
Yes, the action is not transitive. So it must be either 2,3,4,6,12
 
In fact because our action is transitive, the image has to have size at least 4
 
hmm.
Yes, you're right
 
So the options are 4, 6, and 12
 
4:57 AM
For the size of the image, yes.
Wait, isn't that enough? Since G has size 36, the kernel is not trivial
 
I thought you were trying to find the kernel itself
Oh wait you were trying to show that a group of order 36 is simple?
 
Trying to show that it is not simple
 
Oh right, yeah lol
I mean you need nothing fancy, this homomorphism is non-trivial since the action is transitive
So the kernel isn't $G$
 
Omg, of course
 
And the $G$ can't embed into $S_4$ since that's got only 24 elements so the kernel isn't trivial either
 
4:59 AM
Gah.
Why must the size of the image divide the order of G?
Is it because the orbit of an action divides the order of the group?
 
I was thinking first isomorphism theorem
 
well, I was thinking that for S_4
but for G as well?
 
That the image is a subgroup of the target space is one thing
Then you have $G/\ker(\phi) \cong \text{Im}(\phi)$
 
Right
that's the first isomorphism theorem
Oh, I see now
 
So $|G/\ker(\phi)| = |G|/|\ker(\phi)| = |\text{Im}(\phi)|$
 
5:05 AM
Right
good thing I know that before my final lmao
sigh
thanks
 
No problem!
 
yeah
@user104729 still around ?
@user104729 so I am looking at the complexity of the chow group
higher chow groups and generalizing certain things
When I started back in August though I didn't have knowledge in complex geometry or differential topology or complex analysis
Now I am in a good position though
I started in September I guess not August
 
Aren't Chow groups part of algebraic geometry
 
@Daminark I don't like algebra that much
@gian yeah
 
I thought you said your thesis was on geometry
 
5:13 AM
@gian you can define them for algebraic manifolds as well
@gian it is on analytic complex geometry
algebraic geometry is part of complex geometry
if the field studied is complex field
 
Ah. All I know is Chow groups are somehow related to homology
 
@Adeek lol, I remember just a few months back you were all for the algebra. Ted fears that algebra is replacing geometry in this room but maybe it's the other way around
 
@gian yeah It is also related to many things
@gian Hodge conjecture being one of them.
@Daminark Now I definitely realize that algebra for me is just a tool
I need to master to do geometry and analysis
But otherwise, I think that geometry is where my heart belongs
 
I see
 
Geometry and mathematical physics
 
5:17 AM
I've found myself to be more into the topology side than the geometry side, at least the classical diffgeo on curves/surfaces just wasn't my style when we did it over the summer, and I didn't absorb much
 
Try after reading Tu differential geometry try maybe reading john lee
I like abstract geometry
without being embedded in some space
 
I've liked quite a number of things on the whole, in fact there are probably more things I like than dislike
 
I love John Lee's book
 
John Lee is amazing
Tu differential manifold is also very very amazing.
 
Of what I've seen, I've been happy with number theory, combinatorics, algebraic topology, complex analysis, to a lesser degree functional, had a bit of fun with differential topology
 
5:19 AM
I would say Tu differential manifold/Ted's book is the best math book I have read in my entire life.
Complex analysis is sooo fun
I am excited for next semester
I am taking several variables complex analysis
I already know many things in it due to my research
but It is good hearing it from a professor
 
Yeah I mean the only subjects I've so far found myself disliking to some degree were the very crunchy side of analysis, and stuff like calculus/differential geometry
And it's not heavy dislike as much as I was moderately interested in the lectures and didn't find the psets that enjoyable. Somehow I don't think I'm as much of a visual thinker, or at least not good at visualizing rigid objects
 
I am very visual thinker
I had very hard time in algebra first year because I was trying to imagine or get a picture of what is going on
anyway back to work
I will be back later
 
There may be a chance that I'll be able to process things visually in topology more, my experience in AT so far has been very formal so maybe if I ever have a prof like DCal who believes very strongly in pictures, it'll response better
See you!
 
5:45 AM
Algebra can be made visual using graphs and actions
 
I missed @Adeek by 20 minutes!
 
If I can visualise everything in the foundation of mathematics (because they are often some of the most counterintuitive things) then I will be able to visualise any field of mathematics
Despite that, there are many situations where pictures are more misleading than just working directly with the formalism
 
Depends on what your visualization is meant to contain.
But yes, I suppose being able to visualize everything in the foundations of mathematics is probably sufficient to visualize literally anything. However, I believe that the premise cannot hold.
 
Yeah, it is quite apparent when one tries to work with results related to e.g. inaccessible cardinals, or some theorems tied to axiom of choice, (and many of the theorems that I don't know about yet given my novice knowledge on the topic) then pictures will either become too cluttered or is downright misleading
One example I like to quote about how pictures can be misleading is when one tries to plot any dense linearly ordered set such as the rationals and irrationals: You will get a line that looks no different from the real number line (i.e. the drawing will have no holes) and you will get a lot of topology of these sets wrong by just relying on those pictures
 
 
4 hours later…
9:28 AM
0
Q: Lagrange Multiplier Problem - min attained, max not attained - why?

ALannisterConsider the prolem where we need to both minimize and maximize $f(x,y) = x^2+y^2$ subject to $x = y+1$. (So $g(x,y) = x-y=1.)$ Setting up the Lagrange Multiplier equation $\nabla f(x,y) = \lambda \nabla g(x,y)$, we obtain $$ \langle 2x,2y \rangle = \lambda \langle 1, -1\rangle $$ which implies...

 
9:48 AM
@Adeek I do not plan to learn complex geometry
Not any time soon at the very least
I do have plans to learn some basic Riemann surface theory however
 
10:45 AM
Hey!!
Why does it hold that every triangle is contained in some plane? Also we have that a plane is a surface with zero volume, right? Does it then hold also that a triangle is a surface with zero volume?
 
11:15 AM
Akiva, your $\Bbb{Q}\to \Bbb{Q}\setminus \{0\}$ order preserving bijection exercise you gave me the other day allow me to realise one thing about the rationals: It appears that the "global structure" of the rationals is completely determined by the harmonic sequence and the naturals, i.e. Start with the sequence $\pm(...,4,3,2,1,0,\frac{1}{2},\frac{1}{3},\frac{1}{4},...)$. Then the map $\frac{p}{q}\mapsto \frac{p+n}{q+n}$ for denominators $q \in s$, numerators $p \in s$, $n \in \Bbb{Z}$ will
generate all rationals (after omitting nonsensical terms such as division by zero expressions)
So in a sense, the rationals does have a repeating unit
 
11:30 AM
Let $A=[a_{ij}]$ be an $n \times n$ matrix such that $a_{ij}$ is an integer $\forall i,j$. Let $AB=I$ with $B=[b_{ij}]$. Which of the following is true?

(A) If $\det A=1$ then $\det B=1$

(B) A sufficient condition for each $b_{ij}$ to be an integer is that $\det A$ is an integer

(C) $B$ is always an integer matrix.

(D) Necessary condition for each $b_{ij}$ to be an integer is $\det A \in \{1,-1\}$

**My Attempt**

(A) is true.

(B) Not true. Easy to give a counter example.

(C) Not True. Easy to give a counter example.
 
Well, technically speaking, he might be able to still attack Kenshiro one more time before his death kicks in.

You are already dead, Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru, but that does not mean the universe knew you have died just yet
 
@Secret I don't understand :'(
 
I thought, you were giving hint to my problem. :)
@Secret
 
11:45 AM
2x2 matrix M:
det(B)=ac-bd, det(AB)=det(A)det(B)

if det(A)=$\pm 1$, then det(B)=$\pm 1$ (match sign of det(A))
ac-bd=$\pm 1$

there is nothing that stops me from putting rational entries in two of the a,b,c,d
 
@ManeeshNarayanan But the condition was not just that the determinants had product $1$. It was that the matrices had product $I$.
 
LOL:
Prolonged starvation can leave a body so fragile that eating food can, in itself, be fatal. Filling the stomach only causes blood flow to shift to the digestive tract, denying it to other organs too weak to endure the loss. Only intravenous nutrition and tiny mouthfuls of liquids can ease such a person back from the brink; if neither option is possible, they're Already Dead. Additionally, food has a thermogenic effect; it requires energy to process food before the food can be used as energy. Overfeeding a starving person whose body has shut down a lot of digestive functions puts an eno
 
$A=diag(2, \frac{1}{2}),B=diag(\frac{1}{2},2)$ @TobiasKildetoft
 
@ManeeshNarayanan $A$ was assumed to be an integer matrix
 
ok. Then, (4) must be true. Thank you @TobiasKildetoft
 
11:55 AM
no problem
 
12:49 PM
Dengue is now more or less at an epidemic status in Calcutta
 
@BalarkaSen Keep the city clean. :) Swach Bharath Abhiyan :P
sorry!!!
 
It's not a matter of joke anymore. Lots of people are suffering/dying, including close relatives of mine.
 
Morning
asked a prof if hed do my honour reaserch project with me
 
1:30 PM
I want to calculate the area of the triangle with vertices (1,1,0), (2,1,2), (2,3,3).

We can parametrize the triangle using the function $\Sigma (x,y)=\left (x, y, 2x+\frac{y}{2}-\frac{5}{2}\right )$, right?

For the boundaries of x and y I have done the following:

From the verices we see that $1\leq x\leq 2$ and $0\leq z\leq 3\Rightarrow 0\leq 2x+\frac{y}{2}-\frac{5}{2}\leq 3\Rightarrow \frac{5}{2}-2x\leq \frac{y}{2}\leq 3+\frac{5}{2}-2x\Rightarrow \frac{5}{2}-2x\leq \frac{y}{2}\leq \frac{11}{2}-2x\Rightarrow 5-4x\leq y\leq 11-4x$. Since from the vertices the smaller value of $y$ is $1$
 
[Random]
"Model equations"
Consider the following sentence:
Let $S$ be a set. Then $f(S)$ is a set such that $f(S)$ does not inject into $S$ while $S$ injects into $f(S)$. Find all possible $f$
Here $f$ is not just an ordinary map, but actually a map which take models as domains and spit out models. Therefore there exists a formula $\phi$ such that $\phi(f)$ is true.
Simplest way to enforce an injection is to have $S \subsetneq f(S)$
Therefore, what remains is to determine the internal structure of the set $f(S) - S$
 
2:09 PM
@ManeeshNarayanan if det(A)det(B)=1 and det(A) is integer and det(B) is integer then what can det(A) be?
 
Any help on Normal operators on Hilbert space!
I want to prove if $T$ is a normal operator on a Hilbert space $H$ then $||T^2|| = ||T||^2$
 
how is || defined?
 
Hey @LeakyNun !! Have you seen my question above? Do you have an idea?
 
Its operator norm
Top rove this a hint is given is $||T^*x|| = ||Tx|| \forall x \in H$
Where $T^*$ is the Adjoint operator
 
2:23 PM
and also $\| T^2 x \| = \| T T^* x \|$ right
 
If $T$ is a normal operator then $TT^* = T^*T$
@LeakyNun yes
Ah..no i dont think so now
 
@LeakyNun Thank you.
 
2:45 PM
@BAYMAX another hint, I think, is that $Tx$ is itself in $H$.
(which you can use to prove Leaky's remark, in fact)
 
2:58 PM
@Semiclassical I don’t actually know how to prove it... is it easier than I think?
 
hmm.. I must be missing something obvious
 
$\|T^* x\| = \|Tx\|$ for all $x\in H$, and $Tx,Tx^*$ are themselves in $H$
 

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