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Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
5:07 PM
Not sure where to report this, but we have a 404 at christianity.blogoverflow.com/archive
 
El'endia Starman
El'endia Starman
@JonEricson Oooh, thanks for bringing that up...
 
 
4 hours later…
TRiG
TRiG
9:30 PM
@JonEricson Any further news on that fraternity story?
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
9:59 PM
@TRiG Now that the Supreme Court has declined to hear the case, "Alpha Delta Chi and Alpha Gamma Omega cannot receive funding as do other student groups, cannot use university communications or the SDSU logo, and have been denied access to university facilities." (From this California Catholic Daily article.)
I should note, that if either the sorority (ADX) or the fraternity (AGO) dropped their Christianity requirement, SDSU would certainly restore them as recognized student groups.
I highly doubt either one will do that as they would lose their identities.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@JonEricson Would the lose their identities? Really? Would they suddenly be flooded out with Muslim members?
And, if they were, would that be a problem, as long as those new members didn't all run for office within the society?
And even if they did run for office, they wouldn't get it, would they?
Do the Secular Students Association, or the various QUILTBAG groups, have these sorts of problems? If so, how do they overcome them? If not, why should ADX or AGO?
Is this not simply yet another case of Christians looking for special rights?
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
10:18 PM
@TRiG Yes. And I don't even need to speculate. It's not often remembered any more, but virtually every fraternity and sorority at US universities began as either Christian or Jewish organizations. While there remain vestiges of those traditions, few of the "Christian" fraternities can still be called that with a straight face. AGO is a notable exception because it has long required a statement of faith. There can be no question about what would happen if it dropped that.
 
Stack Exchange
Stack Exchange
Comments for Eschewmenical - The Christianity S…: Comment on Welcome to Eschewmenical! by Timothy (TRiG)
posted on April 03, 2012 by Timothy (TRiG)

Isn't there a link missing for the takes deep breath; pinches nose 3/26 post? TRiG.

 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
Here's a critique of the All-Comers policy.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@JonEricson Well, you know the cultural context better than I do. Still, I'm surprised.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
@TRiG One thing that might not be clear to someone not in contact with US fraternities is that there are excellent reasons to become a member even if you disagree with the organization's founding principles. Despite having a statement of faith requirement, I know of several members who were not Christian in any meaningful way.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@JonEricson In which case you could say that the organisations have already developed away from their core definition.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
10:26 PM
@TRiG This is an interesting point. Both fraternities and sororities at SDSU are allowed to discriminate based on gender. (It's part of their identity after all.)
 
TRiG
TRiG
(But what would I know? My main exposure to US fraternities is in the context of gay erotic fiction.)
@JonEricson But that's part of the sociological context in which they operate (that's changing, of course, but slowly). By which I mean that gender-discrimination is built into so many parts of modern Western society (and pre-modern, and many other societies), that we often barely notice it exists.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
@TRiG Alternatively, people lied to get in. Sigh.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@JonEricson Well fairy nuff. And true enough. But why did they lie to get in? Because the organisations offered material advantages.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
@TRiG In this case at least, the university (and many others) have consciously decided that gender is a valid discriminator in this case. It's not as if they didn't notice...
 
TRiG
TRiG
Presumably, then, these organisations are not actually analogous to the Secular Students Alliance or the various QUILTBAG groups. To what, then, are they analogous? What actually are these groups?
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
10:31 PM
@TRiG And none of those advantages (at my chapter at least) came from the university or the government.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@JonEricson Yes. One wonders on what basis they made that decision.
@JonEricson In which case losing university or government support is no great loss, one would imagine.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
@TRiG Ah. But my chapter has its own house, so we didn't depend on the university for meeting locations.
The SDSU chapter does not have a house.
 
TRiG
TRiG
Sorry, trying to read your article on the "All comers" policy, an argument on forking Free Software (with specific relevance to Debian/Ubuntu), and participate in two SE chats at the same time.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
(This is, by the way, one of the reasons a fraternity is desirable.)
 
TRiG
TRiG
@JonEricson And it has nothing at all to do with the dreams of gay porn directors? Fascinating.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
10:35 PM
@TRiG You multi-task better than I do.
@TRiG I imagine the setting is very fertile, so to speak.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@JonEricson ahem
Let's change the subject.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
@TRiG Agreed.
 
TRiG
TRiG
@JonEricson I'm trying to work out exactly what the point of these orgs is.
@JonEricson I'm trying to work out exactly what the point of these orgs is.
So I'll read this next:
Holy Club
The Holy Club was an organisation at Christ Church, Oxford, set up by brothers John and Charles Wesley in 1729, who later contributed to the formation of the Methodist Church. Jeering college students scoffed at these "Methodists" who tried to systematically serve God every hour of the day. They set aside time for praying, examining their spiritual lives, studying the Holy Bible, and meeting together. In addition, they took food to poor families, visited lonely people in prison, and taught orphans how to read. Members of the organization celebrated Holy Communion frequently and fasted on ...
Hmm. Brief and unhelpful. I'll go back to reading Debian stuff.
 

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