@Cerberus now you are just being fanatical ;) not a bad thing though!

On a happier note:

> Chocolate 'may help keep people slim'

bbc.co.uk/news/health-17511011

@Cerberus Meh. If it's about keeping your covenant with God, I don't have a problem with it.

@Vitaly Yeah I am a bit fanatical about that.

@Cerberus but shouldn't you be more nuanced so that you could show how sophisticated you are to your fellow humans? (at the expense of people getting circumcised, but who cares about them, duh!)

It's not that awful.

Indeed. It's not that bad

@KitFox I do. It is physically hurting defenseless babies, giving them a mental shock in the process. I believe there is some evidence that this can traumatize babies in a way that hurts their mental development in some way. I don't know the particulars.

@Vitaly You're not arguing, you're just being annoying in a way that adds no content.

More babies are receiving anesthetic for the procedure these days.

@Cerberus Hey! Be nice.

@Cerberus i am not arguing but i am still making a point.

Is that even allowed in traditional rituals?

@Cerberus i'm willing to give people a lot of leeway on religious stuff, and am reluctant to condemn it even if it's not my religion

@KitFox my boys were both anaesthetized

Knocked out?

Not just local?

@JSBᾶngs I think the law should not really treat religious people any different from other people.

@KitFox no, just local

phew

@Cerberus i don't think that, either.

I suppose it is better if you anaesthise them.

I was under general when I had it done

in the US, at least, the free exercise clause of the constitution makes it so you can't have laws that outlaw specific religious practices (within reason)

And I'm sure the heelstick is painful, and that's practically the first thing they do.

@MattЭллен So you had it done later in life?

But to make a decision about which body parts your child will have not lack for the rest of his/her life? Even though it could just as well be done at an age when the person can consent?

@WillHunting It's not that small.

@KitFox when I was 5, I believe

@WillHunting they also have a really nice device that protects against that these days

@MattЭллен So you were old enough to remember the difference.

@KitFox oh having one and not? yes, I remeber having one, just about. my memory of my childhood is somewhat sketchy

@JSBᾶngs I would not mention religion in the law. I believe it is often done by irreligious people too. I would just forbid causing unnecessary damage to the body of a child.

But never mind.

I shouldn't be talking about this.

@JSBᾶngs It also helps keep the cut straight and prevent scarring, so fewer misshapen penides. Yay!

Kit was wiser.

When it is your child, you can choose @Cerb.

for my parents, it was recommened by the doctor

Not if it is forbidden by law by that time.

I knew a guy who got cut when he was in the army.

@MattЭллен Okay, now there is a valid reason.

apparently it was too tight!

Aww.

No other way to fix it?

I guess not

OK.

@MattЭллен Because your penis was SO HUGE?

:D

obviously!

They could stretch your foreskin nowadays.

Thanks to the awesomeness of weird people's kinks.

And the development of devices to support the aformentioned.

porn and fetishism leads the technology world!

Thank you, kinky people!

Shall I have another cup of coffee?

> She also cites studies which suggest that the majority of teachers think the ideal student is an extrovert, and more extroverts are groomed for leadership positions in the workplace.

@KitFox I recommend a drink high in vitamin C

I wonder how true this is.

Extroverts are seen as self-starters.

I like teaching to introvert children.

Self-starters?

bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17510163

People who take the initiative.

Right.

Go-getters, you know, that job-speak crap.

But those are also the unruly ones.

@MattЭллен I don't have one.

@Cerberus That's me!

I prefer them quiet and attentive, though social. Just a little bit shy.

@KitFox Present company excluded!

@KitFox maybe you could buy one? it would help your cold!

I like extroverted children too, actually.

But believe it or not, I am middle of the spectrum wrt extroversion-introversion.

Yeah, an older primate would not like it very much if a bunch of younger primates weren't quiet in his presence, I imagine.

I have no reason not to believe you.

@MattЭллен Um, no. It's too cold outside to go get one.

@Vitaly It's hard to teach children who won't listen.

i have to say, i really enjoy the way the conversation and the starred messages have evolved over the last hour

@Vitaly Upstarts. Threats to his dominance.

@KitFox ah. then more fluids of any kind. gogogo!

You enjoy children's penises?

Hehe.

@Cerberus Are you familiar with Robin Hanson's view of school? (In re: “teaching”)

Probably not.

@JSBᾶngs Thanks for the information about Orthodoxy too.

@Vitaly are you familiar with Hanson's um bop?

:D

Damn it. Now it is stuck in my head.

damnit, mine too!

curse me

Or is that the Soup Dragons in my head?

@Cerberus Well, that's a pity. You are probably not going to read it anyway.

@Cerb unless you're okay with outright religious discrimination, i'd say that you have to include some kind of free exercise clause in the law. otherwise you could, say, outlaw circumcision with no exception. this wouldn't be specifically anti-semitic, but de facto you would still have made it illegal to be Jewish. oops.

@KitFox your welcome

@Vitaly I'd be interested in reading it.

@Vitaly If you can explain what it is about, who knows?

Curses @Matt

@JSB Was circumcision a religious observance for your family?

@Gigili stuck in your head too?

No :D

@KitFox no, just a thing. my wife wanted to for various reasons, and i didn't care either way.

@KitFox heh, just what I was thinking :D

@KitFox It's spread over many posts on Overcoming Bias and I can't choose a representative one, but maybe this could give you an idea overcomingbias.com/2010/08/functions-of-school.html overcomingbias.com/2010/08/school-isnt-about-learning.html (2 separate links)

@JSBᾶngs I told my husband that I preferred not to, but I considered it completely valid if he wanted his son's penis to "look like Daddy's."

@Cerberus “School isn’t about learning ‘material,’ school is about learning to accept workplace domination and ranking, and tolerating long hours of doing boring stuff exactly when and how you are told.”

Makes notes

@JSBᾶngs 1. Even if only Jews were circumcising people, that still wouldn't change anything for me. If a certain religious cult decided to celebrate a child's 16th birthday by keeping him/her awake for one full week, I would immediately outlaw it. It doesn't matter who does it: it is the action that I would outlaw, regardless of anything else. 2. Muslims and all sorts of seculars circumcise too. And probably some other non-religious groups.

@Vitaly What about Montessori method?

@KitFox No idea, I've only read about it at the age of 6 or something and haven't heard much about it since

Hmm.

I wanted to send our son, but I don't think that's going to happen.

I'll have to try to work in home support instead.

@Vitaly So it is basically a critique of the current school system? Or does it offer its own education model?

@KitFox I went to a Montessori school.

Okay, I'm bored to death with your discussion.

Primary school.

It can work if the school does it the right way.

At my school, it sucked.

Endless repetition and boredom.

@Cerberus Robin Hanson advocated a system of teaching science through experimentation in one of his posts, probably some other changes too, but I can't find it right now.

But, if the teachers do their best to give the child the material that it finds interesting, it can work out very well.

@Vitaly More experimentation than normal schools?

@Cerberus No, more like built around it.

All right, that could be nice.

@Cerberus your factual assertions are fine, but the fact remains that making laws that ignore religion allows you to effectively outlaw a religion, and i'm not okay with that under any circumstance

circumcision doesn't protect gay men but it does protect people in Africa from HIV

@MattЭллен interesting

But how about the subjects other than biology, chemistry, and physics? That's only three of the 12 or so subjects taught here.

> probably some other changes too

@JSBᾶngs Not even if this religion sacrifices humans, like the old Aztec religion?

Or old Semitic polytheism.

> I take it that you think that nearly all of the value of schooling is signaling?

@Vit, I don't understand signaling in this context.

@Cerberus Murder is already against the law.

@KitFox So is harming the bodies of children.

@Cerberus there is the clause about "within reason"

@KitFox as in social signalling, for example an employer could signal things by hiring people who graduated from high-status unis, or you could signal health by having a HUGE tail, or signalling abilities, loyalties, etc

For some reason an exception is made for religious children. The Aztecs also forbade murder, but they made an exception for priests during special rituals.

i suppose now we get to argue about what counts about "within reason"

@Cerberus So I should have told them not to stick my son's heel?

@JSBᾶngs I'd rather not.

@Cerberus actually, the exception is made for what constitutes "harm", since lots of people don't think that circumcision is harm

@KitFox Medical necessity is a good reason to make an exception, of course.

@Vitaly So for instance, I have higher social status because I have a master's degree?

@KitFox not necessarily, you oughtn't confuse status with signalling, though those two often go together in hansonian thought. but you could signal some degree of ability by having a master's.

Some groups pierce their infant's ears.

Sometimes it is best to drop old traditions, venerable though they may be.

@KitFox At least that is reversible?

@Vitaly :\ Hrm.

Oh OK. I think I understand now.

@Cerberus Is it?

ears heal over to some degree, but the scar remains

signalling site:overcomingbias.com :)

@JSBᾶngs But let's just agree to disagree. Perhaps it is not so bad. Circumcised babies (especially with anaesthetics) appear to be doing OK later.

@Vitaly Well, at least now I understand why I am such a crappy employee.

@MattЭллен Yeah OK, but is it clearly visible?

@Cerberus I think it depends on how long the ear was pierced for. If the piecing is removed within a few weeks, it probably heals completely. If it's not removed for years, it might not heal at all

@MattЭллен So a permanent hole would remain?

@Cerberus yes

sad faces

I have piercing in my labrette (just below my bottom lip) that will never close

on the other hand I have a piercing through the bridge of my nose that will eventually fall out

the bridge piercing will leave a scar

it's to with how the muscle grows

Okay, but you're an adult.

yeah

earlobes are weird. I don't know if they count as muscle

Hmm.

Some people are said to be able to move them?

@MattЭллен Generally adipose tissue, isn't it?

@KitFox could be! I'll go with that :)

But they probably move their entire ear.

@Cerberus It's not actually the ear itself. It's the contraction of the [mumble mumble mumble] behind the ear that makes them move.

Heh.

@Cerberus yeah, there is a muscle just behind the ear that is what moves when your ears prick

@KitFox Yeah OK, I thought it was like that.

@MattЭллен Ah, yes, the pricking.

full. of. penises.

Damn I hope i feel better soon.

I hope you do too

Were all those piercing needed?

the surest way to get on the starred message list is to mention penises

@Gigili mine? no

I wouldn't have one if they give me $100000

@Gigili A piercing or a penis?

Both, but more the latter.

Interesting factoid about penises...

lol

Even though penises are not interesting by nature.

Shouldn't I be doing something right about now?

@Gigili You don't think so?

@KitFox Drinking coffee?

@Gigili I am doing just that as a matter of fact.

@KitFox I do think so.

I think penises are interesting, but not as interesting as scrota. I could stare at those all day.

@WillHunting He retired.

@KitFox offers you lots of chocolate

@WillHunting Whaat?

@Cerberus Thanks, but I really need decongestant and sleep.

gasp

Where?

Heaven forfend.

@KitFox Offers you lots of sleep?

@WillHunting I hope not.

@WillHunting Link?

@Gigili climbs in, snuggles, closes eyes contentedly

@KitFox Ohhh sleep...

Let's go to sleep.

@Cerberus No flirting in this chat.

I need to go, bye!

Bye!

@Gigili Jealous?

@Cerberus I can't hear you.

What a pity.

@Cerberus not yet! you're so close! Oh it's nearly 10pm where you are. it could be bedtime if you wanted.

Yeah I don't know any more what is a good bed time...

10pm

10pm

12

12am if you're young.

Hmm.

But not too young.

I'm young! And not too young. Just right!

thinks for a minute

11pm then.

And no TV before bed!

You are a quick thinker.

I don't own a TV.

I know.

But how about licking my blanky?

You may lick your blanky.

And chewing my bone?

But lick it more than three times and you're playing with it.

:D

Oh, oh, no ma'am!

So I had another talk with my son last night about touching his penis.

how did it go?

"Mommy, look, it's just huge, and I want it to go away."

"If you stop touching it for a while it will go away faster than if you rub it."

Haha.

lol

He will later remember his mom's masturbation lessons.

Of course, I have no idea if that's true.

I think so

When he is lying in bed with his girlfriend, for example. "Oh, wait, what did mom tell me to do again?"

unless there's something pressing against his prostate gland

I didn't have the heart to tell him that he was going to be pestered by his annoying huge penis for the rest of his life.

@KitFox have you resisted reading the last chapter?

@Vitaly I thought it wasn't out until tonight?

@KitFox no the one i said to end in a huge cliffhanger

@KitFox Hahaha. Pestered, and pleased.

@Vitaly Yeah, no, I read it. I couldn't help it.

@Cerberus I don't know that there is much to be pleased about.

It must be exhausting to think about sex constantly.

@Vitaly I cursed a lot too.

@KitFox okay. so you know the puzzle. how do you think quirrell could let the two houses win simultaneously and how could the sorting hat be used to judge whether hermione's innocent?

@KitFox honestly, it's too distracting. I just want to stop, but my balls are totally pestering me all the time

@Vitaly I wish I were that smart. I don't know, but I thought that Draco must enter into the debate. He is the counterpoint to his father, and the only one who could do anything about the punishment.

i don't think draco could do anything at all about the punishment

@MattЭллен You just have the one?

he's under total control by his father at this point and possibly obliviated

@Vitaly He's the one who has the actual claim.

@KitFox oops!

with all the relevant memories pensieved

@KitFox I think that is a bit exaggerated.

OK. True that. So what's your theory?

None I could be sure of with 90+% certainty. :(

I like that I don't know.

So any theory then?

Wild guess?

I hate making predictions when I am not virtually certain of them.

I know, but it would be good practice for you.

It's OK to guess.

Okay, here's a prediction: the Sorting Hat is gonna be used somehow — within the next three chapters.

@Cerberus see, I think men are the true multi-taskers. We are always having to think about two things at once.

@Vitaly Why do you think that?

@MattЭллен Heh, well, I don't experience it that way, but OK.

@KitFox why wouldn't I? :)

@Vitaly Come on now. What's your thought? Because he remarked on it particularly at one point recently, and then made another point illustrating its extra-Sorting powers?

@Cerberus sexist humour is wasted on you isn't it ;)

@MattЭллен That's assuming you actually think about anything except sex.

And we all know you don't.

@MattЭллен Eh hmm, I was sort of thinking you people were almost serious. Haha, I guess I am too tired to get things.

@KitFox I think about EL&U

OK, so at the beginning, the Sorting Hat and Harry had a long exchange. The result was that the Hat didn't ever want to be on Harry's head again, but more importantly it revealed something about how the Hat worked. Something about its conscious experience.

You have a photographic memory, don't you @Vit? Help me remember.

@Cerberus heh, it's ok! I know you're tired

bows heads

shows beds

@Cerberus pets heads

Saw reds

cow dead

how vicious

@MattЭллен heads smile

Now you're supposed to make a sentence with "head", "smile" and "pet"

> I can go ahead and tell you that there is definitely nothing like a ghost—mind, intelligence, memory, personality, or feelings—in your scar. Otherwise it would be participating in this conversation, being under my brim.

So the Sorting Hat could sense possession and control, but not Obliviation.

@Gigili Is it a game?

It's a business.

Ask @Matt for more information or @KitFox, or even @Cerberus

Or whatever

I...don't know!

Huh? Me?

Anyway, I'm off.

Later!

Have fun.

byo, @Kit!

cya @KitFox!

Bye!

me? I've been making sandwiches

@MattЭллен sounds delicious

If I say feels delicious, it means I ate a sandwich like that?

no, you would say tastes delicious

It means you touched it with your hands and concluded that it must be delicious based on that.

@JSBᾶngs I will find out tomorrow! they are for my lunch :)

Yay sammidges!

oh CU @KitFox. and i retract my statement about the sorting hat, after having reevaluated its appearance in chapter 79

@Vit I suppose Harry could challenge Malfoy to a duel.

@Vitaly Well, it was a good thought.

@Cerberus I like that idea :D

And now for real (I am sitting in my car in the parking lot but felt compelled to send you that) Bye!

cya!

Bye!

A rather peculiar way of assessing sandwiches, but why not?

Bye!

@Cerberus How you could do that? don't judge a book by its cover?

gives Cerb a squeeze mmmm, yummy

@Gigili That's why you would probably never use that sentence in real life.

I would because I can.

I can because I would.

@MattЭллен Ooh that reminds me, I was making a salmon-avocado sandwich!

I would can because.

@Cerberus how exotic! did you sit down here and get distracted?

Wow. I turn my back on the room for just 108 minutes, and it's full of penises already.

you just can't trust those kids, @Reg. it's all they think about

@MattЭллен Yeah, story of my life.

@Cerberus mine too

Do you want to play a game @Meysam?

And they say goldfish have it tough!

@Gigili I do!

I don't remember

If there's a trash, there's an iPod app for it.

@Gigili Is this related to the game we are supposed to play?

I was pretty sure that it'll get stars.

Penises If there's a trash, there's an iPod app for it penises

lol

No?

Okay, it doesn't work.

@Meysam Play me in Draw My Thing: omgpop.com/i/drawmything/1h8k5f_12ydr1

@Gigili ok

good night!

Good night Matt.