The Factory Floor

SCPilot

12:05 AM

Hi y'all. How's everything?

Shalvenay

alright here, as for you?

SCPilot

12:22 AM

Same here. Did you take a look at the Verrisir armors, @Shalvenay?

Shalvenay

not closely, unfortunately

SCPilot

That's okay. What did you think of them though? Do they look practical?

Shalvenay

practical enough save for the jetpack thing

SCPilot

............

What? What do you mean 'save for the jetpack?

Shalvenay

sort of what's letting the guy fly -- I'm kinda skeptical about that setup in general

SCPilot

12:33 AM

Well, I guess....um......you know how some mecha have jump jets in their boots and backs? That how I guess.

Shalvenay

@SCPilot yeah, scaling's a drag though (never mind the issues with mecha to begin with)

SCPilot

I guess. But the jet pack and jet boots aren't meant to fly, just to slow one's descent and maybe jump over obstacles during battle.

I still wonder why I thought the scene where in Endless Waltz, Gundam Wing Zero's wings have feathers on them? I always wondered about that.

Anyhow, just curious here, but what do you think about the psionically powered battlesuits and mecha? Still working out the bugs on how those would function.

Shalvenay

12:53 AM

@SCPilot I don't deal with psionics so I have no idea :P

SCPilot

Oh? How come you don't deal with psionics?

What about magitech?

Shalvenay

magitech is more my style, yeah

sphennings

@Shalvenay Magic, magitech, psyonics, and superscience are functionally all the same thing with different skins and genre conventions.

Shalvenay

@sphennings in some ways, yeah -- I think it's mostly a matter of the conventions

I have very little exposure to psionics-type stuff (probably the least of the 4)

sphennings

It's magic with a different name.

SCPilot

12:58 AM

@Sphennings has a point, @Shalvenay.

Shalvenay

that is true -- like I said, it's the conventions that foul me up

SCPilot

What do you mean?

Shalvenay

I'm not sure quite why yet

sphennings

@Shalvenay You don't need to follow them. It's your world if you want your mecha to shoot mind bullets then your mecha shoot mind bullets. Simple as that.

SCPilot

So, @sphennings how would you do psionically powered mecha and battlesuits?

sphennings

1:09 AM

Now I'm not an author but "Despite the urgency progagonist slowed their breathing, willing their third eye to open. It had been a while since they'd piloted such an old mecha but they still remembered where everything was as they left their body behind and projected into the astral cockpit."

SCPilot

I guess that works.

sphennings

If I was doing magitech I'd write "Despite the urgency protagonist slowed their breathing, willing their mind to clear. It had been a while since they'd piloted such an old mech but they still remembered the invocation as they began the ritual of activation and climbed into the cockpit."

SCPilot

That works too. I like that one.

I wonder how one would do a Jedi piloting a mecha? In that case, what about a Sith Warrior?

sphennings

The trappings of jedi and sith are based on the same technology. Their machines of war aren't driven by the force so only how they mentally prepared themselves would be different.

Don't tell us about the technology. That is boring. Use the technology to tell us something about the world, or more importantly the characters.

SCPilot

I like those ideas!

sphennings

1:23 AM

If I was writing dieselpunk I'd write "Despite the urgency protagonist slowed their breathing, willing the shakes to stop. It had been a while since they'd piloted such an old mech, but they gripped the controls with confidence as they strapped themselves into the cockpit, and felt the machine rumble to life around them."

SCPilot

Makes sense. I guess since the Force is similar to psionics, it makes sense it would follow whatever philosophy they follow to activate their mechs and battlesuits.

sphennings

None of the machines in the starwars movies are powered by the force.

This is a good thing.

Having force powered robots sounds cool but it adds nothing to the story, and it requires an exposition dump to make happen.

The reason many old star wars fans were so pissed by medichlorians was that it attempted to explain something that didn't need explanation. By explaining the force it stopped being a mysterious power understood only by the wise.

If you had a force powered robot you'd turn the force into your world's equivalent of gasoline or electricity, mundane.

SCPilot

Well, you have to remember before the original three, people would have known about mildchlorians. However, when the Empire came to power, that info was suppressed or destroyed and anyone who remembered it was either silenced or they learned to keep their mouths shut.

sphennings

@SCPilot I'm not talking about in world. I'm talking about our world. Lucas turned the mysterous into the mundane. Watching episode 1 recontextualized the original trilogy.

@SCPilot Things only exist in the world if the audience knows about them either explicitly or by inference. Until episode 1 medichlorians didn't exist. An attempt to explain why they didn't exist in the earlier movies is an example of retroactive continuity.

SCPilot

Is retroactive continuity good or bad?

sphennings

1:41 AM

It's a thing that writers do. It's not necessarily good or bad. Your comment about "before the original 3 people would have known about midichlorians." only makes sense if medichlorians existed in the universe. I'm arguing that the decision to make medichlorians exist in the world was a mistake.

Remember that the person who explains the workings of the force in the origional trilogy is one of the people who has a conversation about midichlorans in episode one.

SCPilot

Yeah that's true. And I see your point.

sphennings

In my opinion don't explain if you don't have to.

Also don't surprise your audience.

SCPilot

@Shalvenay I'm probably going to take some pictures of some ideas for a dragon-like creature, as I might need your help in deciding what fits and doesn't fit.

The rule of cool has of course its limitations, and shouldn't be used excessively.

Unless you want to end up like Michael Bay.

@sphennings, good points. Although surprising your audience does have its merits.

Hi @JourneymanGeek!

sphennings

@SCPilot If I say "In my world magic can't do x." and then later I have a character who uses magic to do x. I'm lying to my audience.

SCPilot

Ah that's what you mean. That does make sense. Unless your main character is meant to do that, and everyone is trying to figure out how the hero is able to do this when no one else can't.

Let me use the example of Broken Blade anime.

In that anime, everyone can use quartz crystals as a focus for their magics.

Quartz is used for everything: powering cars, guns, and even mechs.

sphennings

1:49 AM

You should surprise your audience with plot. I'm talking about worldbuilding. If I'm telling a story about a fantasy adventuring party swinging swords and fighting dragons. Then in the third act our hero pulls a gun out of his backpack and shoots his way out of the evil lair. I'm betraying the audience.

SCPilot

However, there are those who are born one in a million who can't use quartz and thus are born without magic.

sphennings

@SCPilot There's a difference between having someone say "How did he do that? I thought that was impossible!" and the author saying "X is impossible." followed by "Protagonist does X"

SCPilot

They're called un-sorcerers. Later, a mech forged by an ancient civilization is found. However, no one is able to make it work. Except...for the unsorcerer hero. One of the characters studying the ancient mech theorizes that those who can use magic are not the true heirs of the ancients and makes the theory that the ancients were all unsorcerers.

Yeah that's true.

@Shalvenay You still there?

Shalvenay

@SCPilot yeah

SCPilot

But I get your meaning @sphennings.

@Shalvenay you okay with me asking you questions about dragon-like creatures? To me, you have extensive knowledge about them, so I think you might be the person to ask.

Shalvenay

1:52 AM

@SCPilot yeah, shoot

SCPilot

Well, it has to be till tomorrow morning, since I don't have the photos on me. Plus, I don't have my notes with me either. XP

I can ask some questions though.

If you want to create a race of earth bound dragon-like creatures how would you go about it? I know that wings are out the window because they're well earth dragons. And last time I checked, earth dragons usually don't have wings.

I'm thinking a scorpion tail would look cool, but I don't want to go the manticore route.

Shalvenay

@SCPilot I'd almost want to go a full-on serpentine route for them

SCPilot

I was thinking of something like this....wait what?

Shalvenay

yeah, your picture has me going "wait what" for that matter

think of a giant snake of sorts only with a more crocodilian head

SCPilot

Hm.....That's interesting. I would have thought an earth dragon would have some sort of spiked or club tail.

Also....

I think we tought a wrong turn at Albuquerque!

Sorry I couldn't resist that joke. :)

Shalvenay

1:59 AM

more like plopped a hot air balloon down on the grounds of Kirtland AFB there :P

SCPilot

What!? Ouch. I laughed so hard, I think Sprite went up my nose!

But back to the dragon's tail. What made you think of wait what? When I posted that pic? Wouldn't earth dragon's have a club or spiked tail?

Like so under the mountain beast label on this pic:

Or the battle fighter.

Or would a spiked tail look better on a fire dragon-like creature?

Shalvenay

I think the spiked tail could work, yeah

sphennings

@SCPilot Any of the tails you've shown could work.

SCPilot

Ah okay. Thanks you two!

Now, would an earth dragon-like creature have stubby legs?

sphennings

Sure why not.

Is it thematically interesting? Does it add value to your story?

SCPilot

2:13 AM

Still working on that part. You have to understand these creatures exist on an alien world.

Also, @Shalvenay This might interest you.

Shalvenay

not bad, not bad

SCPilot

I know you were asking about stuff on flight, so I thought this might interest you.

Shalvenay

and meshes with my observations on the topic

(i.e. high aspect ratios are essential, and Vs and Vne are both quite low)

I want to see a V-n plot for a dragon sometime xD

SCPilot

Oh?

Shalvenay

Flight envelope

In aerodynamics, the flight envelope, service envelope, or performance envelope of an aircraft refers to the capabilities of a design in terms of airspeed and load factor or altitude. The term is somewhat loosely applied, and can also refer to other measurements such as maneuverability. When a plane is pushed, for instance by diving it at high speeds, it is said to be flown "outside the envelope", something considered rather dangerous. Flight envelope is one of a number of related terms that are all used in a similar fashion. It is perhaps the most common term because it is the oldest, first being...

in otherwords, the diagram used to plot a craft's flight envelope

SCPilot

2:25 AM

Well, you could always watch Game of Thrones. :)

Shalvenay

@SCPilot heheh

even they don't quite give it that much precis

SCPilot

Oh?

Shalvenay

sends Dany to test pilot school :P

SCPilot

lol!

Well, I think they did a good job on Smaug in the Hobbit movies.

Giving him batwings was ingenious IMO.

Shalvenay

yeah, dragon wings are very batlike IMO

you don't have the "thumb"-slat that a bird wing does

SCPilot

2:34 AM

Indeed. And it also makes sense if you want to make a dragon to shoot up straight into the air too. I think.

Oh by the way @Shalvenay, Verrisirs, especially rich ones, have a thing for orreries.

Shalvenay

@SCPilot xD

SCPilot

Um....Why do I get the feeling that orreries a big no.

Shalvenay

it'd be to them as a fancy globe is to us

@SCPilot dunno why, since orrery is to solar system as globe is to planet

SCPilot

Well, I think orreries are neat. Always wanted one. Even if it was small. Mostly because of my love for astronomy.

Do people still use orreries?

Hey they make wristwatch astrolabes!

SWEEEEET!

Shalvenay

@SCPilot not so much now that we have KSP ;)

SCPilot

2:43 AM

KSP =Kerbel Space Progam?

Shalvenay

yup

SCPilot

Ah I see. I do have some Galileo thermometers though.

And a couple of hourglasses.

Shalvenay

heheh

SCPilot

What?

I like the old stuff actually. Kind of reminds us of what we accomplished.

Shalvenay

looking L to R across where I'm sitting, I have: a small-ish FPGA board, a graphing calculator, 2 DMMs, a sort-of-lab-supply, my PC, a handheld spectrum analyzer, a USB logic analyzer, and a digital oscilloscope

SCPilot

2:48 AM

So, nothing really old school?

Shalvenay

nothing really old school, no

SCPilot

Ah. I like really old school stuff. You could say that I've always been fascinated by that sort of stuff. I guess I've always been interested in clockwork stuff.

Shalvenay

heheheh. I'm not nearly as mechanically savvy as I am electrically savvy

SCPilot

3:21 AM

Still working on how a lot of alien races got mecha technology. A lot of ideas, but nothing set in stone.

Well, I got to get going now. Have a goodnight! See you tomorrow!

JDługosz

4:33 AM

Well, that’s different… a friend of my wife just posted: returning home after the hurricane in Houston, they were surprised to find an alligator in the dining room.

Worldbuilding Meta

5:26 AM

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Q: How can this after-close answer exist?

I recently returned to my computer after a prolonged absence to note a message from the author of this question in response to my comment. While I was there, I noticed the question has been put on hold and had a second answer from the last time I visited. I was going to leave a comment asking the...

Bellerophon

12:35 PM

@JDługosz At least it went to eat in the correct room.

SCPilot

2:48 PM

Hello everyone! How are y'all doing today?

Bellerophon

3:00 PM

@SCPilot I am doing pretty well. Been preparing to end my holiday and return to school.

SCPilot

Ah that's good I guess. I wish you good luck in your studies.

Shalvenay

hey there @Bellerophon and @SCPilot

SCPilot

Hi @Shalvenay! So, I got all of the pics ready.

Shalvenay

pic number 4 is the one I'll comment on -- the wing bones aren't spread enough

SCPilot

Ah I see. Well, I took a pic of it for the scale pattern.

Anyhow the flying semi-aquatic dragon-like creature the Verrisirs tend to use would have long feathered ears like the ones in images 1 and 2. I was thinking maybe for horns something like images 3 and 4.

And sorry the photos are bit blurry. Had a bit of a glare. :(

I'm thinking of having the wings be like bat wings like they did with Smaug in the Hobbit movies, but making the wings be part bat part feathered, while also making them multispined like the last photo there.

Still thinking about scales.

I'm thinking of using a combination of the scale patterns in pictures 5-7.

I like the Oriental dragon head so I might use that and it give the whiskers of the catfish. Although...the ends will have something like this:

I guess tufts of fur/feathers at the end of the two longest ones. Which I guess could be use something like an angler's light.

Still with me here @Shalvenay?

If I'm going too fast let me know and I'll show down.

Um.....Did I scare everyone away?

Bellerophon

3:24 PM

Sorry, I was restarting my computer.

SCPilot

Ah okay. It's cool. I always have this worry that when I chat too much I scare people away from the chat.

Bellerophon

Where did you get the pictures?

SCPilot

I took photos from an art book using my iphone. And yes I know they're not good photos, but I hope they are still viewable.

I took them to make it easier for me to explain my descriptions of what I was thinking of when I was describing my idea for a dragon-like creature.

Shalvenay

@SCPilot all seems cool so far, a lot of the cosmetic features don't matter

SCPilot

Oh? Why is that?

I would think that cosmetic features would matter, since they matter in nature.

Shalvenay

3:38 PM

well, they probably have a purpose, they just don't matter as much when it comes to flight and whatnot, although I'd tend to favor leaving them off for a clean, low-drag dragon

SCPilot

Hm....So, what I have on my dragon-like creature would drag it down?

Bellerophon

3:54 PM

@SCPilot The crests would but it shouldn't matter.

SCPilot

Wait...the crests?

Future Historian

Hmmmmm.

Gentlemen?

For space combat, which is more efficient: kinetic weapons or energy weapons?

In real life?

@SCPilot?

Kinetic weapons vs lasers?

SCPilot

Hm.......I would think that kinetic weapons since there is no air resistance meaning the bullets would be able to inflict severe damage to targets.

Future Historian

Which is your preference for space war?

SCPilot

However, lasers would also work as well since there are no dust particles to cause the lasers to scatter as they would do planet side.

I actually like both, although growing up on Star Wars, I do lean towards energy weapons. Especially now, what with me being a fan of Gundam and mecha.

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