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12:15 PM
I keep forgetting how difficult bf is to program eugh
 
@Mr.Xcoder CMC: integer to any string which could be Roman-interpreted back to the given integer. (Or maybe a good main challenge?)
 
@Adám it's a dupe ofc
 
@LeakyNun Really?
 
I think every number has one valid canonical roman form
 
@DestructibleLemon Only according to some systems. But that isn't what my CMC is about.
 
12:25 PM
@Adám so basically "I".__mul__?
 
@LeakyNun Hm. Didn't think about that.
How about this:
 
ok I guess
 
CMC: Convert integer to shortest possible, purely additive Roman numeral.
1203MCCIII
 
nice
 
2017MMXVII
 
12:27 PM
can we take input as string?
 
@LeakyNun I can't prevent that.
 
Jim
@Adám What do you mean by "purely additive"?
 
@Jim Output letters must occur in the order MDCLXVI
 
Okx
so IV would not be valid?
 
@Okx Correct, it should be IIII
 
12:31 PM
so a greedy algorithm with the roman numeral values?
 
@DestructibleLemon I guess so. What exactly do you mean by greedy? As many Ms as possible, then as many Ds as possible, etc.?
 
that is the technical term
greedy means doing the biggest value that is possible to place in
 
0
Q: What is a character encoding, exactly?

Socratic PhoenixPreface I've 'failed' twice at this whole golf language design thing, once with JAISBaL and again with Clack. Now that I've had a go twice, I am obviously an expert and am attempting to design the perfect golfing language. One of the things in particular that annoys me about Clack, JAISBaL, Jell...

 
@Adám :| this is so lennyable
 
@Downgoat Lennyable?
 
12:43 PM
@Adám so 796 would be DCCLXXXXVI?
 
@Mayube Yes.
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Comrade SparklePonypwaS eht tirsf dna tasl setterl fo hace dorw! Or, "Swap the first and last letters of each word!" Your challenge is to, given a string of alphabetical characters in one case and one other character to use as a delimiter, swap the first and last letters of each word. The examples/testcases use ...

0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Comrade SparklePonyS-p-e-l-l o-u-t w-o-r-d-s! Given a string of alphabetic characters in one case and one extra character to use as a delimiter, spell out each of the words in the string using another delimiter. The example and test cases use the lowercase alphabet, the space as the string delimiter and - as the ...

 
@Adám Braingolf; Not golfy, over half of it is printing the characters after figuring out how many of each to print D:
 
@Mayube @Emigna This looks like a significant challenge. Maybe I should post to Main?
 
12:51 PM
Non-subtracting Roman numbering could be considered a duplicate of a change-making challenge.
 
@Adám I did a quick search and found this. Seems very similar
if you ignore the parenthesis cases
and that it isn't purely additive
 
@Emigna In other words, not a dup at all.
@feersum change-making challenge?
 
I wouldn't consider it a duplicate, but some might
 
You know, like quaters, nickels...
 
0
Q: Create ASCII Art with your code

EvorlorCreate ASCII Art with your code. Not your output, but the code itself. The code must compile and run. Infinite loops are acceptable. Comments are not allowed. Example in brainfuck: ----------- [ , , ] [ - - ] [ > ] [ ] [ ..... ] [ + ] ----------- ...

 
12:54 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer what bottom line?
 
@feersum They overlap, so you have to decide to add another quarter and thereby prevent a dime.
 
@LeakyNun I'm not sure if the correct output for aaabbbbbccqrrrssstttttttPPw is:
              tt
              tt
    bb        tt
    bb        tt
  aabb    rrsstt
  aabbcc  rrssttPP
  aabbccqqrrssttPP
(many leading newlines...)
 
@EriktheOutgolfer read the challenge
 
@LeakyNun no, leading newlines don't appear in the message...
also where's the bottom line?
 
12:58 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer ctrl+f -> sky
 
OK, I'll post it to main.
 
what I meant is that the message is supposed to contain leading newlines...
 
what line
@Adám after 10 ppl did it in chat?
@EriktheOutgolfer what the **** is the bottom line?
 
@LeakyNun well, on the bottom line, a couple of ws is supposed to be there...since you have w in the input as well
 
you mean the right line?
 
1:00 PM
the last building basically
it doesn't appear at all
 
@LeakyNun Not exactly 10, but I didn't realise it was such a good challenge. It would be trivial for the chatters to post to main, no?
 
how on earth is that the "bottom" line
@Adám go ahead
 
@LeakyNun confusion
also this errors
 
he already fixed it
I see no point continuing this discussion
 
@mınxomaτ no, I didn't hear about that. Can I still or is it too late?
 
1:03 PM
CMC: Given a natural number and a list, generate a list from 1 to that number inclusive, but the outputted list should not have the numbers from the list in it. For example, an in put of 5, [3,4] should return/print [1,2,5].
 
@ComradeSparklePony Jelly, 2 bytes: Rḟ
And no, I won't do it in 10 languages.
 
@ComradeSparklePony 05AB1E, 3 bytes: LsK
 
@ComradeSparklePony what if input is 0? should we make range [1..0]?
(hint: 0 is natural number)
 
@EriktheOutgolfer 0 won't be in the input.
 
@ComradeSparklePony CJam, 7 bytes: {,:)\-}
Damn CJam is verbose
 
1:08 PM
@BusinessCat talk about verbose
@ComradeSparklePony can the list contain duplicates?
 
@LeakyNun No.
 
@ComradeSparklePony Pyth, 4 bytes: -SQE
probably golfable
damn internet is so slow
 
Okx
@ComradeSparklePony Neim, 4 bytes: 𝐈Σ₂𝕚
 
@ComradeSparklePony APL, 4 bytes: ~⍨∘⍳
 
Jim
@EriktheOutgolfer You ninja'd me
 
1:12 PM
yesterday, by Leaky Nun
2 days ago, by HyperNeutrino
2 hours ago, by Erik the Outgolfer
please, "ninja'd" should be restricted to when you actually post the message a split second later than somebody else posting the same message, and then you are the one who is ninja'd
 
Jim
@EriktheOutgolfer Golfed to 3 bytes: -SE with the list first and the number last
 
yeah...that's what I was thinking of
 
> Some definitions ... begin the natural numbers with 0, corresponding to the non-negative integers 0, 1, 2, 3, …, whereas others start with 1, corresponding to the positive integers 1, 2, 3, ….
So ideally a challenge should specify which definition is intended
 
3 mins ago, by Erik the Outgolfer
probably golfable
@trichoplax then let's make consensus for multiple definitions of a mathematical concept
 
@trichoplax obviously the one that includes 0 is the standard one
 
1:14 PM
I agree it's obvious, but not that it's that one :P
 
@LeakyNun Obviously not.
 
for God's sake, please don't start an unnecessary dispute
 
@Adám if you use the set-theoretic encoding for natural numbers, it would be natural to start at the empty set and then call that 0, instead of starting at {{}}.
 
@EriktheOutgolfer Since both definition are widely used, I don't think a meta consensus is useful. Some new users will be confused whichever way we decide, so specifying for each challenge seems the only way to avoid that.
 
@trichoplax but is it a consensus?
 
1:15 PM
@trichoplax Or let the answerer chose.
 
@EriktheOutgolfer Oh I see - you mean we should have a consensus on meta that the challenge author needs to specify?
 
Yes that might be useful. I suspect many people don't realise there is another definition (I certainly tend to assume "natural numbers" means "positive integers") so it could be handy to have somewhere to point to when a challenge author thinks it is too obvious to specify
@Adám Letting the answerer choose the meaning of the spec sounds like a leaky spec...
 
the "too obvious to specify" part is very common misconception...others may think too obvious too but different
 
Yes exactly - it happens with so many things
 
1:19 PM
also when I read "number" I often assume positive integer
 
I think natural number is slightly worse because when a spec says "number" at least one person will probably say "does that include negative and zero" whereas when a spec says "natural number" most people think their definition is the only one and don't ask for clarification, so the spec doesn't get edited until answers come in and arguments start
 
and the fact we've not already had a consensus is even more shocking...
 
@trichoplax resists to make a pun out of it
 
@LeakyNun I'm glad you didn't think that was a comment on your specs...
 
@trichoplax No, a lot of challenges allow choosing index origin. This isn't any worse, is it?
 
1:28 PM
@Adám not exactly what we're talking about...
natural numbers is just an example of a mathematical concept which can have many different accepted definitions...it could not always be just a matter of setting the index base
e.g. 0^0
 
@Adám Oh I see. No I don't see a problem with leaving an option open. It's just that other challenges might be significantly different with a different definition. So there's a difference between the challenge author saying "choose either" in a challenge where it doesn't matter, and a challenge author saying "natural numbers", genuinely believing that this is unambiguous in a challenge where the other definition breaks the challenge
 
also what trichoplax said, OP might not even be aware of the situation
 
In short: flexible specs are fine, ambiguous specs are not
 
I always heard in school that natural/counting numbers are 1,2,3,..., whole numbers are 0,1,2,3,..., and integers are ...,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,...
 
1:33 PM
natural numbers==whole numbers
except if we use the first definition
the last definitions for integers is correct
 
@EriktheOutgolfer Right, but I'm saying the first definition is what I learned in school
 
Jim
@StephenS That's not what I learnt => ambiguous
 
are we in some pre-18th century era where 0 isn't natural?
 
are we in some prehistorical era where 0 doesn't exist?
 
@Jim Exactly my point :)
 
1:36 PM
Personally I'd rather use "integers", which we all agree on, and qualify with "negative", "positive", "non-negative", or "non-positive"
 
Anything not explicitly stated in a challenge specification is left up to the answerer. Generally folks will comment with questions... but in code golf you gotta take those byte reductions while you can.
 
@trichoplax but this is not about what you'd use personally...also I dunno if "non-negative" or "non-positive" are unambiguous enough
 
You can have 0 of a physical object, so excluding 0 seems totally unnatural to me.
 
and that's why that's a definition of natural numbers
but there's the other definition where the object wouldn't exist at all...there arises the confusion
 
1:38 PM
I mean my answer to the meta question would be "don't use natural numbers, and ask challenge authors to edit to qualified integers"
 
@EriktheOutgolfer I don't see the logic in this.
 
couldn't we just use mathematical interval notation? integers in [1, infinity) or something like that
 
@StephenS then why not just say n ≥ 1?
 
I used "strictly positive".
 
I think any of these are clear apart from "natural"
 
1:40 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer Then why not just say n > 0 and eliminate a byte?
 
5
Q: Those Greedy Romans!

AdámGiven a strictly positive integer, return the shortest possible Roman numeral using only the additive rule. Output must consist of zero or more of each of the characters MDCLXVI in that order. The number 14 must therefore give XIIII rather than XIV. The characters' numeric values are M=1000, D=5...

 
@NewMainPosts too late
@trichoplax I think it's time to get to the actual consensus making...all of this is clear evidence we do need it
 
Good point. Who wants to start the meta discussion?
 
Thanks
 
1:43 PM
@trichoplax But we cant just say 'non-negativeandalsosomewhatfeelsnatural numbers'
 
wtf I made a bf program and it doesn't work ;_; I'm gonna cry
 
@SIGSEGV I'm suggesting we don't need the word natural at all
 
@betseg ono D: 0/10 discrimination
 
btw do we want a golflang that's all about Google Assistant
 
1:46 PM
@SIGSEGV I'd say "non negative integers", but there's a meta post about to arrive if you want to discuss it...
 
@trichoplax sure
 
@SIGSEGV "need" is a strong word
 
wai u do dis bf
 
@DestructibleLemon if somebody didn't know that bf was a programming language, he/she would think you broke up with your bf
2
 
o
also it turns out my python implementation of bf doesn't work either
dangit
dangit
 
1:49 PM
rip. can I see it?
 
@mınxomaτ I'm applying now. need to figure out what to write
 
Ooh quantum stuff
looks interesting but I don't think I'd be able to use it rip
oh wait it's hosted over internet?
I might be able to play around with it then (•◡•)
 
it was a really stupid bug
 
oh ok
 
well goddamnit
now I am mad
 
1:53 PM
ono rip
 
well, rip that implementation
 
Doesn't all programming consist of writing stupid bugs, and then finding them?
 
That's why birds love programming
The next step tends to be eating the bugs
 
@totallyhuman do they know how to write bugs?
 
o I think I figured it out possibly
 
1:55 PM
I don't know how to write bugs, but I do it anyway
10
 
@DestructibleLemon can i see code
 
:o :c
> Though superposition is stronger than a probabilism, it is weaker than actually having an army of 2^N real computers all working on the problem at once.
That sounds amazing (2^N computers for large N :D)
 
o my god I am not very smart sometimes
 
1:58 PM
o look i am very not smart always xD
 
o wait that wasn't the part where the bug is
 
A stream of consciousness becomes even more irritating when you refuse to share the code
 
o wait is was. ok, will share code
but it will make very long link
 
I'm sorry
 
TFW you realize you didn't even add quote characters to your code page
 
Sorry for all the edits. It turns out spaces at the end of link text break the link
 
:'c SE Chat formatting is really weird
 
@trichoplax almost finishing the post
 
o god what is this meant to do?
 
compile stuff
but it infinite loops or something
 
oh I see
 
2:04 PM
in fact I put in a bit of debug code at the end ([-]) to try ans see if that was issue but it was not
wait
 
@DestructibleLemon Surely it's easy to find the bug when it's all so neatly indented... ;)
 
I did another stupid
I left in a []
I FIXED IT!!
 
WAIT NEVERMIND
 
@DestructibleLemon This still seems to be listing thoughts and actions...
 
2:05 PM
But the awesome hello world answer didn't work on it ;-;
 
OK I will stop now
 
I don't know what are the specs of the implementation that that answer uses
 
@DestructibleLemon Thanks :)
 
also I should probably be asleep at the moment
 
2:06 PM
@totallyhuman Should be %= 256 not %= 255
 
I'm sad now
 
@BusinessCat oh
 
That's pretty cool though
 
@EriktheOutgolfer +1 & +1
 
I noticed
ooh another +1 on question and answer
 
2:08 PM
@BusinessCat shh you saw nothing
 
@EriktheOutgolfer me (•◡•) thanks for addressing that, that's a very good point
 
@DestructibleLemon You don't have to be silent. You can discuss what you're doing with someone, just not the play by play commentary
 
no I'm sad because this is screwed up
and I probably can't fix it soon
 
Imagine being silent in a chat room
Totally makes sense
 
Imagine TNB being put into timeout :o
 
2:10 PM
It makes as much sense as I am robotic
 
@totallyhuman well, since you're totallyrobot
 
@DestructibleLemon Oh I see. Perhaps it will fall into place after a break from it. I often find sleeping on a problem makes it easier when I return
 
ehh...
well, I guess I have to go to bed
 
@DestructibleLemon See it as an active part of the development process :P
 
@DestructibleLemon yeah you should
 
2:11 PM
ok
seeya
 
goodnight
 
ó.ò/
 
Thoughts on the Ruby programming language?
 
String manipulation, puts, inspired by Perl, and Ruby on rails
 
@PhiNotPi "perl is great, but it doesn't go nearly far enough, nor are its proponents nearly as smug as they could be"
"let's fix that"
 
Okx
2:22 PM
despite never using it my mum think it's her favourite language only because of the name
 
Context: looking for a new language to learn.
 
@PhiNotPi what languages do you know?
 
Native language was Perl, now mainly use Java, occasionally Python and C when required.
 
@PhiNotPi If you ever need to touch web learning some JS might not be a bad idea
 
^^
 
2:29 PM
I've been learning Haskell and Its really good.
 
Learn them a Haskell for great good!
 
3
Q: What to do about mathematical concepts with different definitions?

Erik the OutgolferYou must be wondering, why is this a so important subject? Well, take the example where a challenge asks you to take a "natural number" as input. What's a natural number? A non-negative integer, or a positive integer? The same would happen with Fibonacci numbers, do we include the 0 or not? Anot...

 
That is late
 
@StephenS I haven't done too much JS (just enough to hack together the OEIS challenge stack snippet from way back). So although I should probably learn more of it, I'm just not interested in web development right now.
 
Quick which bracket stands for for exclusive and which stands for inclusive
 
2:35 PM
Exclusive () inclusive []
 
@NewMetaPosts Me in set theory: of course 0 is a natural number. Me in analysis: of course 0 isn't a natural number.
12
 
B-but 0 is a while number
cowers to stupid inconsistent standards
 
@totallyhuman no while 0:... will be skipped...but it's a whole number...not sure if natural number though, will you math guys finally decide?!
 
2
Q: Keyboard vs Code-Golf?

DaniFoldiIf you've come here, you probably know what code-golf is, and that's what I'm going to assume. Story (I guess) Keyboards are input devices we use all the time. They existed before mice and touch screen, etc. Their fundamentals have not changed: when you press a key down, a signal is sent to ...

 
2:59 PM
How does this look? (It's my about-me website; the stuff about my achievements etc. is just for the purposes of an application; I plan on removing it after I get results back) (cc @Downgoat)
s/achievements/things that make me not as much of a failure lol/
 

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