The Nineteenth Byte

@Arjun I don't think currently logical truths can be absolutely established

@Fatalize bonjour

Fatalize

Hello

Thank goodness there's AC in my hotel room

@HyperNeutrino Did they remove only the rep you earned before you turned 13? Or all?

Mayube

@Arjun they deleted his account

@Mayube Because he started his account before he turned 13?

6:09 PM

@HyperNeutrino excuse me I judge my self-worth in SE reputation :P

Mayube

yep

@Adám, Yeah, I think I give up on finding the 17 byte solution.

Why did they delete the account?

I am in danger, too, then. My profile says something about me too :P

@Arjun When I studied philosophy (included formal logic) in University, I challenged the formal logic teacher to "prove" that (p∧(p→q))→q. Needless to say, she failed.

@Adám I edited the challenge by changing one character, because I downvoted (not on purpose) it instead of upvoting 30 mins ago and realised that when I looked at it again

6:11 PM

@Mr.Xcoder I gathered that much. Now it is an even bigger celebration!

@Adám I can understand nothing of it.

:P

@Arjun If it's raining I'll get wet. It's raining. Prove that I'll get wet.

I don't understand the whole concept of philosophy.

Wouldn't (p∧(p→q))→q just be an axiom of formal logic or something? If p and p→q, then q, right?

@Adám proof by binary table

6:13 PM

^

@ZacharyT indeed it is

@Adám Isn't that just obvious by Deduction?

modus ponens?

@Adám Its always raining in england.

Every science relies on axioms, isn't it so?

6:14 PM

@Arjun of course not

science is inductive

logic/maths is deductive

axioms is a logic/math term

It depends on how formalized you want the science to be.

Hyper Neutrino's back!

science does not presuppose anything at all; and axioms are presupposed truths

With more rep?

@cairdcoinheringaahing that's not the account

6:16 PM

@Arjun not really, I mean if assuming what is real is real is considered axiom then yes, but that make little sense so no

That's the point. If it is an axiom, it is just something we've decided to agree on. But potentially, a society could make a different set of axioms, no?

@LeakyNun I mean 'axioms' in the sense they are related to maths.

@Arjun Don't be; in some ways, a fresh start is better. Also teaches me to appreciate the rep and upvotes I get. (lol I sound like some weird moral educator)

@Arjun axioms have a certain meaning. Axioms are used in maths.

isRaining = True
AdamIsWet = False
if isRaining:
    AdamIsWet = True

(Informal and Unreliable) Proof in Python ^

6:17 PM

@LeakyNun I know. With, 'axioms' I meant 'basic truths'.

@Mr.Xcoder Python is modelled after the arbitrary axioms we've agreed to.

@Mr.Xcoder you misspelt @Adám's name

@Arjun This is why you do not post stuff in chat or on your profile. I said something in chat and got my account deleted not more than a month later.

@Arjun science does not presuppose any truth.

(Informal) Proof in Python, of course

6:18 PM

@HyperNeutrino If they delete my account, I will simply leave SE. I am addicted to it. Addiction = Bad.

Does python allow unicode identifiers?

@LeakyNun Science relies on Maths. Maths is formalization of Logic.

"Proof" in APL: {⍵:1}1

@Arjun maths is used as a means, but not science itself: their methodologies are inherently different

(although, math can become illogical at times)

6:19 PM

@Arjun I joined when I was 12, deleted that account and joined again 3 months ago

@cairdcoinheringaahing Phew.

@LeakyNun Sorry?

{S|~(S∊S)}.

@Arjun science relies on maths as a means, but science is not built on maths

@LeakyNun How?

6:20 PM

@Arjun I was considering that, but no, my entire (lack of a) life is SE (PPCG) ಠ_ಠ :P

@Arjun science is inductive; maths is deductive

@LeakyNun But science at least relies on Logic.

Logic is essential for everything.

@Arjun Not necessarily.

I keep looking at this when a number shows up in the tab but its always maths == science and now I'm bored

@Arjun then that statement is as useful as "carpenter relies on logic"

@cairdcoinheringaahing maths != science

6:22 PM

Holy mother of goats, first day back from account deletion and I already got Mortarboard??? wow thanks for all the upvotes :D

@LeakyNun maths == science == computer science

science: theories, falsifiability, probability, evidence
maths: theorems, axioms, proofs

@LeakyNun Trash it sounds, but it's true.

@cairdcoinheringaahing Finish one of your 543543 unfinished languages

5

@Arjun I didn't say it isn't; I just said it's useless.

6:23 PM

welp now I gtg now. o/

Nope. It would be better to describe them as subsets.

@ZacharyT which is subset of which?

@BusinessCat I'm too busy watching GMM while Rhett shakes his booty

dont ask

Computer science ⊂ maths. (At least the theoretical side of Computer Science)

yea sure

6:24 PM

You philosophers...

@LeakyNun Useless if taken for granted. 'Human Logic' is what we are born with so it seems obvious. That's no reason to believe that it exists as fundamental truth.

@Arjun so?

Science ⊂ Math (assuming you're a mathematical [physicist/chemist/biologist/etc...])

@ZacharyT not at all

@ZacharyT citation-needed

6:26 PM

19 mins ago, by Leaky Nun

@Arjun I don't think currently logical truths can be absolutely established

Title of a youtube video to keep you philosophers going: "Why Creepy Robots are Creepy"

@LeakyNun Henceforth, Science does rely on Logic. Logic is flawed = Science is flawed.

@ZacharyT the methodologies of two disciplines are inherently different

@cairdcoinheringaahing Vsauce?

@Arjun GMM

6:26 PM

@Arjun that statement is as useful as "Logic is flawed = [insert any discipline] is flawed"

@Arjun Science ain't flawed. Nor is Logic

Just because science can be described with math doesn't mean science is a subset of math

4

I can describe you with word but that doesn't make you paragraph

The last hour of TNB, by Maths Geeks

> Maths, science, maths, logic, maths

@Arjun science does not proclaim absolute truths, and its credentials is its continued reliability on producing effective results

@Mr.Xcoder I am not saying it is, either. I am saying that Science relies on Logic.

6:27 PM

@ZacharyT 'ping'/⍨1<≢⍵∩'@'

@LeakyNun True, I agree.

So saying "science is flawed" is not really understanding its methodology

@Adám ಠ_ಠ, wow, I missed that somehow.

@Arjun Logic is not flawed, it is just incomplete.

@Arjun this question make no sense. 10/10 perfect philosophy question :P

6:28 PM

Just imagine us invading Philosophy chats...

Philosophy is the opposite of Logic.

@ZacharyT Is there no HNC?

@LeakyNun I wasn't saying that either!!! It was just a way to show that Science relies on Logic. So I meant to say that if logic = false then science = flawed.

hi @LeakyNun

@Lembik hi

@Arjun alright

New Main Posts

6:30 PM

8

Q: Interlaced Rotations

Challenge Given a square matrix of characters (single-byte printable ASCII characters), rotate each "ring" of the matrix in opposite directions. Let's take an example: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Then, the outermost ring is rotated clockwise 90 degrees, like so: 1 2 3 ...

code-golf matrix

@Arjun You wouldn't be able to proceed with execution of that statement beyond the first clause.

@LeakyNun how do you feel about putting a bounty on your math.se question? I think it's interesting but just plain hard

BYE!

@Arjun Even if logic would be flawed, there is no way for us to tell.

@Arjun if logic = false, this entire statement is invalid because it use logic and so is this and everything explode and sheep take over world because wat jsut happen and logics and maths just broke

6:31 PM

@Lembik I don't think a bounty would be quite useful

I would do it myself but I am very poor on math.se :)

@Adám Neither am I doing so.

@LeakyNun that's a confusing sentence

do you mean you don't think it would be useful?

or you do think it would be useful?

@Lembik that's actually what I said

sans the quite

oh, the quite is the root of all problem

it was the quite that confused me

6:33 PM

@LeakyNun But wait, doesn't Science explain phenomena based on other Scientific phenomena. That makes Science deductive. Or am I mistaken?

@LeakyNun yes!

@Arjun for example?

@LeakyNun why don't you think it would be useful?

@Adám What is HNC?

@Lembik because people wouldn't know how to solve it anyway, with the bounty or without

6:34 PM

@ZacharyT Hot Network Chats.

@LeakyNun That's not my experience of adding bounties

@Lembik alright then, I'll give it 50

@LeakyNun My experience is that there are vast numbers of questions and the top math people look at the questions with bounties on to see if they can solve them

@Arjun No, the truth of a conclusion in Science is probable, based on the evidence given to support it. A deductive argument (in maths, for example) is certain.

@Lembik done

6:37 PM

@LeakyNun thanks! My experience is also that there is no advantage in adding a bigger bounty

although someone should do a study :)

But, say we were to take founding ideas as certain (AKA axioms/postulates), then would it not be certain?

@Arjun maybe you're referring to scientific laws?

They are hypotheses that are continuously tested

@ZacharyT The postulates and axioms are always true thanks to logical deduction. That is why maths is deductive.

And scientific theories are those that attempt to explain other things, and scientific theories are also hypotheses that are continuously tested

@LeakyNun Say for example, water appears around cool bottle containing chilled water. Why? Water vapor condenses when comes in contact with cool surfaces. Why? That's how it is.

6:40 PM

@Arjun yes, science attempts to explain things

In science, it all starts with a hypothesis and it all ends with whether the premise was true.

@Mr.Xcoder A deductive argument in maths is valid, not necessarily the truth.

@Mr.Xcoder I think you mean a hypothesis, not a premise

@Arjun that's why there are axioms in maths which are presupposed truths.

@LeakyNun Yes, sorry. I was thinking of inductive subjects in general.

and you can change those axioms howsoever you want

6:42 PM

@LeakyNun Based on presupposed truths?

@Arjun so your observation is that water appears around cool bottle containing chilled water, and your hypothesis is that water vapor condenses when comes in contact with cool surfaces. Then, you go on and make some predictions based on that hypothesis, and test that hypothesis. This is how science works.

@Arjun no; the explanation must be continuously tested and verified

so it has to be falsifiable

Wow, TNB does get derailed fast...
Is there (other than CMC's) ever a time when this room is on topic?

falsifiable means that there is a way for it to be false, so not a tautology, or etc

@ZacharyT Rarely.

When asking for challenge suggestions.

@LeakyNun So science is based on experiments.

?

6:43 PM

@Arjun you can say so

xnor

@Adám thanks for the copyable characters!

science is based on trying to disprove our beliefs.

@ZacharyT I asked something on-topic but nobody answered me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Arjun The theory in science only describes the experiments made, and most likely conflicts our current beliefs

@ZacharyT Discussion about specs for proposed challenges. Discussion about policies.

6:44 PM

@LeakyNun How is it that we can know things that are from human reach to experiment?

@Mr.Xcoder ^

@Arjun I strongly suggest you watch this video:

Can You Solve This?

►

@Arjun I do not understand your question.

@Arjun Nor do I

Pause. I am watching that vid

I know that I know nothing

The phrase "I know that I know nothing" or "I know one thing; that I know nothing", sometimes called the Socratic paradox, is a well-known saying that is derived from Plato's account of the Greek philosopher Socrates. The phrase is not one that Socrates himself is ever recorded as saying. This saying is also connected or conflated with the answer to a question Socrates (according to Xenophon) or Chaerephon (according to Plato) is said to have posed to the Pythia, the oracle of Delphi, in which the Oracle stated something to the effect of "Socrates is the wisest." == Etymology == The phras...

There is no absolute knowledge in science.

@LeakyNun Like knowing how the universe began :- The Big Bang Theory. That's certainly deductive.

Not inductive.

Of course not.

6:47 PM

How?

what does :- mean?

Once again, we don't know anything. We can be somewhat certain about something.

Is it about thinking of cardinality instead of ordinality (the video)?

@Mr.Xcoder no

@LeakyNun Yet, that probability is achieved using deduction.

@Arjun so? As I said, maths is a tool of science, or a language of science, but it is not science.

@Mr.Xcoder it's about this

4 mins ago, by Leaky Nun

science is based on trying to disprove our beliefs.

6:50 PM

Ooh, reaching the end I now realise I have watched it in the past, but it didn't occur to me by now... I didn't remember a thing from this vid.

@LeakyNun Hence, Science is partially deductive. If considering Logic not eternal, wholly deductive.

My memory is so weak...

@Arjun science uses a deductive tool. The methodology of science per se is inductive.

@Mr.Xcoder How so?

@ZacharyT Idk

6:52 PM

@Mr.Xcoder what?

@LeakyNun Sorry, my efficiency in the subject is much lesser than you, as I happen to be much younger than you.

Yet, I don't agree with your beliefs as I don't understand all of it.

@Arjun I have a feeling that age gap is present many places in PPCG

@Arjun I didn't tell you to agree.

github.com/abrudz/Kbd/blob/master/altgr.klc, that's a lot of APL chars, holy crap

@LeakyNun Maybe, then you made it to be a Socratic Dialogue. If so, the purpose does not seem to be fulfilled as I don't understand all of it.

6:56 PM

@Arjun well, you didn't bother to ask what you do not understand, so I assume that you are indifferent.

@LeakyNun It seems to me that you know a lot more on the subject than I do, and you use that knowledge to argue about your beliefs, as I infer from the terminology.

@Arjun so?

@LeakyNun Nothing. Abandon the discussion.

Alright.

We're back on-topic

2

7:00 PM

@LeakyNun I don't understand Veritasium videos, because he usually uses scientific-terminology, whose understanding, I lack.

So, I won't watch it.

@Arjun that's your choice

Vsauce videos are awesome, though.

CMC: Given a string, uppercase all the letters in odd indexes (specify if your answer is 0 or 1-indexed) and every digit on even indexes should be replaced by 10 - thatdigit. 0 remains 0 though.

We're finally back on-topic.

@ZacharyT Here's the layout map:

7:03 PM

@Mr.Xcoder so what is 0 replaced with?

Sorry, with 9, will edit

someone should answer this in charcoal:

12

Q: Impossible cube maybe

Problem Given an input a where a is a truthy/falsy value output the exact impossible cube below if truthy and the exact normal cube below if falsey. Input truthy: ___________________________________ / _______________________________ /| / / _____________________________...

code-golf ascii-art

@Downgoat nope

I'm going to assume NO DIALECT ever uses every one of those symbols?

@LeakyNun edited

7:04 PM

@LeakyNun Should I undelete my answer here?

I think it's okay since I've already outgolfed you :P

@ZacharyT Correct. But most of them are in use in some (proposed) dialect.

3 mins ago, by Leaky Nun

@Arjun that's your choice

Yeah, I remember looking at APL section of Unicode, and thinking WTF [I think that + code golf are how I started]‽

@LeakyNun how did you resend your old message in that format? I don't seem to get it...

7:06 PM

just post the message link

@LeakyNun My choices can earn me down votes, as they have done in the past.

(APL is under Miscellaneous Technical)

@Arjun then that's your consequences

in Mathematics, Jun 16 at 3:03, by Leaky Nun

@nitsua60 right click on the triangle -> copy link location (on firefox)

10 hours ago, by Mr. Xcoder

I think most of you remember Martin vs Dennis - Round 1: Who has more rep?. There was a Round 2, but I deleted it kind of instantly because it was boring. And I really want to make "Round 2" again. Is anyone willing to help creating that?

Yaay, it worked! Thanks @totallyhuman

np

7:09 PM

@LeakyNun Yeah, that's why I wanted to make sure that community likes my decision.

Yeah, @Adám, Some dialects use different symbols that look exactly the same, right? (GNU and Dyalog)

@Mr.Xcoder Dyalog APL 16.0: {0::⍵⋄⊃⌽⍕10-⍎⍵}¨@(~a)819⌶⍨∘1@(a←2|⍳∘≢) I'll have a model that can run on TIO in a couple of minutes

Flag.

I am going to sleep... Bye .o/

@ZacharyT I don't understand. You mean the symbol has different meaning depending on dialect?

7:12 PM

@Adám what does ⍎ do?

@Mr.Xcoder eval()

@Adám Thanks

Yeah, I changed my keyboard layout to match Dyalog, but ◊ and ⋄ are different symbols.

Also, ∊ and * have different codepoints in GNU than in Dyalog.

@Mr.Xcoder Try it online!

@ZacharyT Ouch.

@Adám Great!

7:17 PM

What the hell was GNU thinking when the made * NON-ASCII‽

@ZacharyT At least APLX allows both * and ⋆. I do understand the urge to use the unicode star operator - it resembles the traditional APL star symbol much more.

Isn't GNU APL like the 2nd most popular APL dialect?

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

@ZacharyT No, I don't think so. It is basically an experiment. And they make all kinds of strange decisions.

@ZacharyT See the very bottom of microapl.com/apl_help/ch_210.htm

PhiNotPi

The Ubuntu machine I'm on doesn't have Hotdog as a built-in color theme. Workflow = broken.

New Sandboxed Posts

0

Rotational Anagrams Given, for lack of a better word, an anagram cube c with n rings and a word w, output whether or not you can rotate the individual sections to make w appear across the middle. Constraints The letters that can appear are all printable ASCII characters EXCEPT for newlines. ...

7:24 PM

@ZacharyT Dyalog only has one such mapping ^ is treated like ∧ when used as a an APL primitive (not in strings and regex).

@ZacharyT May I ask why you use GNU APL?

I used to use GNU APL. That was before I knew Dyalog had a student license!

@ZacharyT Dfns are a joke in GNU APL.

Yep. The statement separator doesn't even work, does it?

GTG.

@ZacharyT Nope, single statements only. Meh.

@ZacharyT ,⍨/

Actually, nice one: CMC: reverse a string without that built-in.

@Adám Vim, something bytes (didn't count) :s/./&\r/g<cr>:g/^/m0<cr>VgggJ

There's probably some things that could make it shorter, but I can't test them right now

For example, I think :s/./&\r/g|g//m0|j!<cr> probably works, but I'm not sure

Try it online!

Yep, it works

7:38 PM

It outputs ollhe not olleh

Well shoot

CJam doesn't technically have a reverse builtin so I guess 3 bytes: qW%

@BusinessCat What does it do?

Try it online!

Selects every -1th character

7:42 PM

If built-ins were allowed, V now has æ, which is a pretty recent addition

Can anyone guess guess an APL solution based on my previous chat statements?

I don't know what anything in APL does =/

@BusinessCat Nice attempt. Almost right, but not quite.

github.com/LazoCoder/Pokemon-Terminal

I like the Articuno one

Poke

8:01 PM

So at some point netflix rejoined the fight against removing net neutrality but now tumblr has dropped out

battleforthenet.com/july12 Can see which big names are in it to win it still

> During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

This is when you know you messed up badly

Poke

Anyone ever check out the NSA's github account?

Uriel

8:16 PM

do we have any normal matrix rotation challenge?

regarding codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/127765/…

(removed)

8:32 PM

Question: is minority group in the US refer to anyone who is non-white or is it analogous to underprivileged?

@Downgoat Any class members that constitutes < 50% of the population in question.

:O I am minority then O_o

:O everyone in my city is minority

Phoenix

@Downgoat I would certainly think sentient goats are a minority population.

You know all mammals are sentient right

Phoenix

No

8:43 PM

@Downgoat For every individual there exists a classification which renders that individual a member of a minority.

Everyone is racial minority in city though White is at 49% and Asian at 47% so very close :P

@Phoenix can't tel if sarcasm :|

Phoenix

It wasn't

@Downgoat Also in Montreal (where I lived before London) French speakers constitute the largest minority at 40%.

@Downgoat I also don't know that to be true. Doesn't mean it isn't.

> NSA is committed to protecting your privacy and will collect no personal information about you unless you choose to provide that information to us.

XD

@Downgoat … e.g. by using the internet.

8:49 PM

Brb using that as excuse for identity theft

Question: Has here been legal precedent for NSAs surveillance

@Downgoat there's a SE for Qs like that.

se borked on me ;-;

or it's the userscript

ASCII-only

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well it's probably because you had two chat tabs open

betseg

9:07 PM

. i.imgur.com/rmcfx41.gif

o0

betseg

or the real version: i.imgur.com/aLOc3so.gifv

@Adám is on-topic on law.SE?

@Downgoat would think so.

Uriel

@Downgoat it might also fit on Skeptics.SE

Luis Mendo

9:32 PM

@StewieGriffin I wonder why your modified-GoL challenge isn't getting many upvotes. I think it's a very good challenge. Perhaps it's for the negative word "death" in the title. Consider some other title, such as "Stewie's game of fatigue" or "Life and fatigue" maybe

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

@Downgoat Well... That's one way to have the NSA track you down

New Sandboxed Posts

0

Stealing Sequences I've noticed a number of OEIS challenges since I joined the site. It seems only fair that we have a cops-and-robbers challenge that determines who is the master of online integer sequences, once and for all. This is cops-and-robbers. Cops Write a program or function that, gi...

Quetion: if I'm asking someone for job should I say 'job' or the more vague 'opportunities'?

Well, what kind of job are you looking for?

ASCII-only

@Downgoat say "i am gaot pls gib be job tyvm"

9:42 PM

Actually, no. What's the context?

@Zizouz212 at a non-profit

Are you applying for a specific position, or are you just asking if someone is available sort of thing?

I just need work experience so I guess internship doesn't go under job :|

@Zizouz212 latter

You'd ask for opportunities. Mind if I ask where you're looking at?

I guess 'social justice non-profit'. I know the founder on personal basis though

9:45 PM

Ooh that's cool!

But yeah, you'd say something along the lines of "I'm looking for opportunities" and so on

is it good idea to praise company alot or should I be to the point?

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

More to the point. I don't know where you're applying, or where you are, so I don't think I can help you that much with the specifics

New Sandboxed Posts

0

For the background to this sandbox post, see Should we open *Largest number printable* to all languages? Largest number printable Your goal is to write a program that prints a number. The bigger the number, the more points you'll get. But be careful! Code length is both limited and heavily we...