English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Averruncus

05:42

@Mitch I don't go to casinos. Besides, why would anyone look at the time in a casino?

Your gambling interest is showing by the way. :)

@Tonepoet Don't read too much into the meanings of the words, it can confuse you. I do that too sometimes, so I'm not criticizing.

Tonepoet

06:01

@Averruncus I'm already up to my ears in dictionaries:

Averruncus

That's good.

There was a time I was addicted to English dictionaries myself.

Well, I still like them, I just don't obsess over them. ;-)

There is a vocabulary section in Reader's Digest. Do you ever go through it?

I don't know if they still have it or not though.

Tonepoet

I haven't really read the Reader's Digest much.

Averruncus

06:16

@Tonepoet I don't know about you but I can't read lying down on my stomach.

Nor on my back.

Tonepoet

@Averruncus I wouldn't be so sure that Yumiko is lying on her stomach in that picture. I mean if she was in ed, maybe but even when wired phones were the only practical option, who kept a wall phone next to their bed?

Averruncus

@Tonepoet But that may not be the wall phone. The wired phones could be put on a table or a desk or a stand too.

And who the hell is "Yumiko"? :P

Tonepoet

Oh, my mistake. Apparently it's Yomiko, or more specifically Yomiko Readman. She is also known as Agent Paper, and the leading heroine of Read or Die. You can read more about her character in this analysis sheet:

@Averruncus I made that assumption based upon the angle of the telephone wire, and how taught it is.

Tonepoet

06:51

I barely remember anything about Read or Die, other than being entertained by it.

Averruncus

sorry, my internet died all of a sudden.

So I Googled my name and there is an anime character by this same name too @Tonepoet But not sure if it's an anime or a comic book character.

@Tonepoet If she is lying down on her stomach and the wired phone is on a desk or on a stand it could give that same angle too.

@Tonepoet And you wrote "taught" by the way. What does "taught" mean there? I am genuinely curious. :)

You meant to write "taut" I'm guessing.

SmokeDetector

07:18

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, offensive answer detected: Derivation of "anus" from "annulus"? by lolkat on english.SE

Tonepoet

09:52

@Averruncus I suppose you could say that. I meant to write taught as in not slack.

@Averruncus Also that's unlikely. She can't be on the floor because of the position of the window, and the phone would be falling off of her desk unless it was screwed into place for some reason.

@Averruncus Finally, the reason you're probably confused is because the vast majority of anime is adapted from manga. Looking on Google Images, I found that it's a character from Negima!, which is one of many such shows.

Averruncus

@Tonepoet That's very old English I believe tonepoet. No current dictionary says "taught" is an alternative spelling of "taut". Even Webster's

It's always 'taut' now

I mean if you have a good proof otherwise then let me know.

That Webster's dictionary you use is awesome but 1828 version, so quite old I'm afraid.

ODO says "taught" is a past and a past participle of teach which I knew

@Tonepoet Ah I see.

Tonepoet

@Averruncus It does seem to be the overwhelmingly more popular orthography now based upon Google Books, albeit not quite to the extent of always.

Averruncus

10:07

@Tonepoet All right haha, this has been fun. I don't think she is on the floor, she is on the bed (end of the bed is showing). Plus, there are some bed sheets around apparently. And window? The blind on the window is common around beds like that I think. Aren't we both detectives eh? :P

So if what you say is correct then where is her torso?

Tonepoet

@Averruncus She might be sitting, or even standing...

Averruncus

But if there is a desk, then you are right.

@Tonepoet Yeah, that's possible.

I wouldn't know without talking to Yomiko or visiting her place.

@Tonepoet Come on now, do you notice the results in the blue? They are almost gone.

I mean I'm not trying to discredit you but if you use "taught" like that then people might not understand you, that's what I was getting at.

Tonepoet

@Averruncus You said always. XP

Averruncus

@Tonepoet Ohhh. Gotcha! xD

Tonepoet

@Averruncus I suppose a definitive answer might be found by watching the show...

Averruncus

10:20

@Tonepoet Yeah. Is it on Youtube? If it is then give me a link anytime.

But how will we find that episode?

@Tonepoet Do you like to watch TV series like Game of Thrones etc.? Or do you mostly just watch anime?

Tonepoet

@Averruncus For the most-part I gave up on western television years ago.

Averruncus

@Tonepoet That character kind of remind me of Tomb Raider, one of my favorite characters from video games.

@Tonepoet I see, any specific reasons why?

Tonepoet

10:42

@Averruncus I don't know. I always felt as if television was getting progressively worse overall as the years went on, but I can't place my finger on any one certain reason. One thing that comes to mind is that I used to watch plenty of sitcoms, and comedy is much crasser than it used to be though.

Færd

11:21

> 1. We need a secretary with a first-class knowledge of German.

> 2. We need a secretary with first-class knowledge of German.

1 is more natural.

Is 2 unacceptable?

Practical English Usage says it is. I'm not sure, though.

Mitch

12:33

@Færd both are perfectly acceptable, with very subtle differences

> we need someone with knowledge of German

> we need someone with a knowledge of German

caub

When you have a 'pattern' example if you extract the minimal shape that can reproduce the pattern, how can this minimal shape/image be called (in simple terms)?

Mitch

I'm having trouble articulating the difference. There is one, but I'm having trouble describing it

@caub pattern or template work

caub

we need someone with acknowledged of German

so the minimal shape is also called 'pattern'?

it's like the difference between a plant and a whole field of plants, but for geometric shapes/images

I'll go with 'shape' I guess, thanks, nvm

Averruncus

@caub A "sample" perhaps?

caub

ah not bad, thanks

Averruncus

12:40

you are welcome.

@Mitch Time to get a new cat or a pet bird.

But not something like a hawk or an eagle unless it is tamed.

tchrist

16:09

Only +25,000 more views on the covfefe ~~hits~~ question since yesterday; perhaps it's settling down.

SBM

covfefe?

tchrist

Ceci n’est pas un mot, dit Magritte.

Sorry, I seem to have forgotten which sentence I was typing midway through.

44

Q: What does “covfefe” exactly mean?

The Washington Post (May 31, 2017) reports that “[President] Trump targets ‘negative press covfefe’ ” in his tweet: MORNING MIX: Trump targets ‘negative press covfefe’ in garbled midnight tweet that becomes worldwide joke / Trump tweets ‘covfefe,’ inspiring a semi-comedic act of Congress ...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, pattern-matching website in answer: What is the UK-English equivalent of "Public Works"? by John on english.SE

gammer

16:42

Can I anyone explain why the covfefe question is not off topic? Given that covfefe is an obvious (right?) typo/pockettweet, I have trouble seeing this as an sincere question, meaning it fails the "...on questions you actually face" bit listed her english.stackexchange.com/help/dont-ask

I have read the chat and meta discussion about this.

All I get from that are ironically trump-like rants from the OP about how it must be on topic because it has so many views-----is that a standard for on topic? Should the "on topic" help page be updated??

It seems that replacing actual standards about what is/is not on topic with rules based on internet traffic would change the site fundamentally, and it's strange that the OP (a moderator?) would insinuate that that would be a good thing.

tchrist

@gammer Yes.

But I would rather reflect in sorrow and saudade how it is that we should now find ourselves trapped a world that counsels us to replace such words as distinguished with shorter ones, and to so impoverish our writing and our thoughts that they might fit within the compass of a five-year-old’s mind and stamina, the world where nothing but Twitter counts as readable.

Mitch

17:04

@tchrist Did you mean distfefe?

tchrist

@Mitch diſtreß

Mitch

@gammer It's complicated (meaning your point is relevant). To native speakers, if an unknown person wrote it, it is an obvious non-word/typo. And that is usually considered off-topic (or rather unanswerable because it has no answer).

But a world leader wrote it so some native speakers who put trust in them might think that something special was intended by the word (as opposed to simply 'coverage' was intended).

Also, the OP is a non-native speaker where such people can't be expected to have the fluency to recognize non-words vs neologisms vs nonsense that makes sense (like Jabberwocky) and a cat walking across the keyboard. So an answer such as 'it doesn't mean anything' might be a reasonable answer.

Also, the OP is long-time, respected non-native question asker, and so a lot of slack is given. The OP has written many excellent questions (and this one maintains at least the form of an excellent question...how was he to know that it's nonsense).

The OP's upset comments about being off-topic are unfortunate, like hearing your favorite pleasant unassuming grandmother swearing like a sailor when they stub their toe.

tchrist

Fleeting though I pray it shall quickly prove, it cannot be fairly argued that this has become anything less than a raging cultural phenomenon. Because Google ranks Stack Exchange very highly on questions matching questions, and because this inane matter has taken up the Zeitgeist like a whirlwind, we are being constantly hit by visitors directed hither for this very purpose of finding the answer to their question.

Mitch

@tchrist di 'ſ' treß? What the ſ is that character? It's making the horizon shimmer unpredictably.

tchrist

As a quarter-million souls have come to us as an authoritative source seeking the answer to this particular question of theirs, I adjudge that to delete forthwith the target of their search in a churlish spirit of preening over-righteousness would serve us no good purpose nor just.

Mitch

17:16

@tchrist if only we could migrate to quora, where such bullshit belongs

tchrist

Quora is a discussion site.

Mitch

@tchrist oh. yeah. there's that.

tchrist

We are a site for questions’ answers.

Mitch

we're sort of an authority on 'things' even if they fit our specs exactly

tchrist

s/(?=ex)/in/

Mitch

17:18

@tchrist not really, they are a Q/A site too. in fact we have more back and forth through comments

tchrist

> Google ranks Stack Exchange very highly on questions matching questions.

Mitch

@tchrist haha I have to lookup that syntax all the time. I thought it made exinactly.

which is what I will use from now on.

tchrist

’Tis a zero-width lookahead.

Find the point before which "ex" occurs, and insert "in" there.

If you have no such syntax, a capture works: s/(ex)/in$1/

Mitch

@tchrist wait...(just looked at that)... WTF! And people were worried about anti-inte..dang it can't use that word.

@tchrist it was the ahead vs behind that I always have trouble with.

@tchrist inexactly!

tchrist

The behind is hard in its assymmetricity.

Mitch

17:22

also it can lead to exponential blow up. or something.

wait that's not right

it can be -slower-

tchrist

@Mitch When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

@Mitch The problem is with variable-width lookbehind, lest it be unconstrained.

Mitch

there are too many letters in 'understood'. you need to use a better word

@tchrist right, that's the problem. with constant strings it's easy, but wildcards...

make it impossible? or just slow?

tchrist

Very few matching engines permit variable-width lookbehind.

Mitch

I read a recent article on anti-intellectualism, and like everything that's going on bad now because of stupidity, they made it sound like it was a new thing.

It's all been around for ever, but maybe quantitatively there's more of it now

tchrist

@Mitch Recency illusion.

The Know-Nothing Party.

Nihil novi sub sole.

Mitch

17:26

and the people writing these things are too young. like under fifty. they don't have experience

@tchrist that's been said before

tchrist

No, they have vision.

Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

Mitch

youth is wasted on the young

tchrist

Dreams of yesteryear.

Dreams in search of lost time.

Mitch

filled with regret, waiting to die alone

tchrist

Like the snows of yesteryear, gone from this earth.

Mitch

17:29

old men can have visions too, but that's usually when dehydrated and close to heat stroke

tchrist

Tempus fugit: alle Fleisch ist wie des Grasses Blumen.

Mitch

@tchrist I remember when it used to snow to a depth up to my shest

but now it only reaches at most to my knees

I grew a little

tchrist

@Mitch Mais où sont les neiges d’antan?

Are we yet become the Room Incomprehensible again?

Mitch

@tchrist Fischers Fritz fischt frische Fische

@tchrist we've never left.

It's always been understandable if you only had the key

tchrist

@Mitch Por peces pescadas en la piscina.

Mitch

17:32

sadly the key is often bent or worn

tchrist

The straight way is now lost.

Mitch

Out of the crooked timber of humanity, if you saw just right, and sand a lot, you can make some interesting furniture

tchrist

@Mitch per una selva oscura?

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita è il primo verso della prima terzina della Divina Commedia di Dante Alighieri; costituisce l'incipit del primo canto dell'Inferno. Il riferimento più citato come ispirazione a queste parole è il Convivio (IV 23, 6-10): «lo punto sommo di questo arco [della vita terrena] ne li più io credo [sia] tra il trentesimo e il quarantesimo anno, e io credo che ne li perfettamente naturati esso ne sia nel trentacinquesimo anno». Una concezione, questa, che si fonda biblicamente su un Salmo XC, 10: «I giorni dei nostri anni arrivano a settant'anni e per i più forti a ottanta...

Mirkwood

Crooked its timbers, dark its heart.

Mitch

@tchrist We shoveled for hours. piled it up on the lawn. The streets are clear but There's still a pile of ice and it's early June

tchrist

May 18 at 0:56, by Mitch

@tchrist This is kind of early for a June snow storm don't you think?

Mitch

17:39

@tchrist Se una notte d'inverno un viaggiatore

tchrist

Love: dark and deep.

And patios to sweep.

Wrecked a vacation.

Soiled our nation.

Mitch

This is going down a path I didn't foresee

@tchrist Speaking of which, was Villon writing 'early' Modern French, or late Middle French?

tchrist

@Mitch The latter, no?

I don't know. I'm no frog filologist.

But Middle French is oft easier read than Middle English.

And Old French infinitely easier on the eye than Old English.

Mitch

If on a winter's night a traveler
Outside the town of Malbork
Leaning from the steep slope
Without fear of wind or vertigo
Looks down in the gathering shadow
In a network of lines that enlace
In a network of lines that intersect
On the carpet of leaves illuminated by the moon
Around an empty grave
What story down there awaits its end?

@tchrist closer than I am

tchrist

awaits the rhyme

Mitch

17:48

@tchrist It probably rhymes in Italian

I'm looking for it..

tchrist

Everything does.

I can read El Cid more easily than I can read Chaucer, and that's old-vs-middle.

I can't read Beowulf without a cheatsheet.

As you can read the Chanson de Roland.

You can read Dante still today.

Or Camõens, though changed the language.

But English has mutated so much.

The Romance of a thousand years ago is legible; the English, not so much.

And yes, I know I'm comparing apples with aardvarks in the timespans stated.

La Chanson de Roland and El Cantar de mio Çid aren't too far apart.

Dante and Camõens are much closer to our time.

I haven't studied Roland; I've studied El Cid.

Mitch

Se una notte d'inverno un viaggiatore
Fuori dell'abitato di Malbork
Sporgendosi dalla costa scoscesa
Senza temere il vento e la vertigine
Guarda in basso dove l'ombra s'addensa
In una rete di linee che s'allacciano
In una rete di linee che s'intersecano
Sul tappeto di foglie illuminato dalla luna
Intorno a una fossa vuota.
Quale storia laggiù attende la fine?

@tchrist That's the original.

tchrist

Thanks.

Doesn't much rhyme, but reads better.

Mitch

@tchrist Old English is a foreign language, probably easier for modern Germans to read than modern English.

@tchrist For Italian, it's slightly unfair since that dialect was chosen as the national one in the 1800's. I wonder how legible Dante was to contemporary Venetians or Napolitanos

tchrist

@Mitch That's true.

It's like how Chaucer is easier for us to read than Sir Gawain because it was the former's dialect of Middle English that developed into Modern English, not the latter's.

However, the country-folk who still reside in the lands of the Gawain poet still know many of those dialect-terms that the rest of us do not.

Mitch

18:02

@tchrist I remember, in parallel to English class, having ElCid assigned to read but only mentioning Roland. and only remembering O rage o desespoir o vieillesse ennemis. unless that is from something I barely looked at.

tchrist

Rage is a popular theme for epics.

Mitch

@tchrist The past is a different country. unless it is exactly the country you grew up in.

@tchrist yeah because making high-schoolers read them is like torture

You'd rage too.

tchrist

Not like Achilles whose boyfriend perished in his stead.

Mitch

Speaking of which, you'd think instead of raging against the darkening of the night, you'd instead welcome it. Time to take a nap.

tchrist

@Mitch Por esto se inventaron la siesta.

Mitch

18:05

@tchrist That's gotta cause some inner conflict

@tchrist also candles

tchrist

Mar 7 '15 at 1:54, by tchrist

> Rage — Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus’ son Achilles,
murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,
hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls,
great fighters’ souls, but made their bodies carrion,
feasts for the dogs and birds,
and the will of Zeus was moving toward its end.
Begin, Muse, when the two first broke and clashed,
Agamemnon lord of men and brilliant Achilles.

8

A: Could somebody translate this into modern English?

TL;DR: A 1990 translation is provided as the last citation at the bottom. You have it easy compared to those many of us who struggled to read that epic song of rage with words beginning thus: μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε πολλὰς δ᾽ ἰφθίμους ψυ...

Thea being in the vocative, not that you can tell in that declension.

Mitch

@tchrist Wow, every time I read something about Zeus he comes across as an entitled jerk.

tchrist

@Mitch Duh.

Mitch

not much of a leader

tchrist

Choose Apollo.

By day, and Dionysus on the weekend.

Mitch

18:08

and make sure the leprechauns are on your side.

and the kitchen god.

So how did the Italian read? (of the 'poem' above)?

didn't rhyme at all.

I'm pretty sure it was an Oulipo attempt, taking lines of poetry from different authors.

tchrist

@Mitch The words seemed more of one cloth woven.

Færd

19:53

@Mitch Ah, OK. MAybe I should ask it on the main site.

Mitch

When Americans refer to our language as 'British English' #ThingsThatLeaveBritainReeling

Tweeted by Criggers72 on June 4, 2017 at 3:28 PM

@MattE.Эллен What? What do UKers prefer then? Or is it simply umbrage at it not being called just 'English' and what the Americans speak is 'American English'?

@Færd note that there are lots of questions (some recent) about keeping the article vs not.

Færd

OK.

> (1. The train came after a two-hour delay.)

> 2. The train came after a two hours' delay.

> 3. The train came after two hours' delay.

Which would you choose between 2 and 3?

My gut feeling says 2.

Well, more than gut feeling. Because "two hours" as a stretch of time can be used with the indefinite article, and "a two hours' delay" suggests that the two hours that the delay belongs to, or is related to, are separate entities, not forming a continuous period of time.

Færd

20:25

There may be native speakers who wouldn't agree with that though:

in Language Overflow, 5 hours ago, by Lawrence

@Færd #1 and #3 work. #2 doesn't.

I don't know for sure. I'm open to being put right.

terdon

22:32

I'm with Lawrence. I would choose 1, could live with 3 but not with 2.

Single Fighter

22:55

I am not a native speaker, could you tell me whether "introduce x to y" is the same as "introduce y to x"?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…