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9:01 PM
@JingWeng I do have a technique but it is not for everyone in every situation. You need to know that 'it's not your fault'. Here is a video for you. youtube.com/watch?v=GtkST5-ZFHw
Hi @ShaVuklia I thought you left because you were distracted lol
 
yea, I was looking if there's anyone here who could help me with a basic electromagnetic problem
but I'm not sure
 
What is it?
 
I don't understand the last sentence
How do they apply Gauss' law to say something about the net field of the point, due to some charge exterior to the point?
apparently, we use symmetry (of spheres/cylinders), but I don't see how
Gauss' law says: $\oint E\cdot da=\frac{Q}{\epsilon_0}$ btw
 
@ShaVuklia Yep, and what's $Q$ here ?
 
the enclosed charge
 
9:08 PM
So if you add a charge outside the volume, the equation remains the same. That's what they mean (I think)
 
that's what I thought too, but why do they say "provided it is specially/cylindrically symmetric" ?
and a follow-up question would then be:
how can any charge affect the electric field at a point, when we can always make a Gaussian surface small enough, such that the charge isn't enclosed?
 
Hm let me read the whole paragraph
 
(expect at the point where the charges are)
 
I'd agree with you, you don't need the surface to be symmetric.
 
If I understand right we have hollow sphere and outside may be a electric field, if the sphere is perfect conductive obviously the electric field is null inside...but the potential is defined as the way integral from the reference point to your point so the potential inside the sphere is the same as on it since there is no voltage between any points a&b being inside or on the sphere
 
9:11 PM
Musing: does the term "to figure", meaning "to believe/understand", come straight from the idea of constructing a figure to help one reason through things?
 
@Felix yes, that is my interpretation too. but then I don't understand they remark
 
@ShaVuklia Gauss's law doesn't give you the electric field at a point. Only its flux. Which indeed, is always $0$ if there's no charge in your volume
 
that is true
 
So... I'm not sure I get your second question
 
9:13 PM
yea that question was a brainfart then (sorry I'm copying someone:P)
 
Oh hey physics
 
yes @Semi!
help us! :P
 
I see, so the noun did come first.
 
so only the first question still holds
 
Will look carefully, but first I'll give some off the cuff remarks
 
9:14 PM
@ShaVuklia Well my opinion for Q1 is that the shape doesn't matter
As long as there's no charge inside, the flux is always 0
 
There's a difference between Gausd's law being valid and it being useful
 
yes, but they talk about the net field, not the net flux
@Semi oh
 
Gauss's law works even if you don't have a situation with symmetry
 
@ShaVuklia Oh, then it's rather easy to explain. When it's spherically symmetric, the field created by each point on the sphere is cancelled by the field created by the opposite point
 
Even if there is flux but the sphere would be perfect conductive, potential wouldnt change, but that has nothing to do with geometry
 
9:17 PM
@Hippa but shouldn't they mention the magnitude of the charge too then, for the cancellation to happen?
and how do you know the charge is positive?
 
But if you don't have symmetry then Gauss's law doesn't really help. The issue is of deducing the field from the flux, and you need symmetry for that
 
@ShaVuklia Symmetry implies that both the shape and the charges are symmetrical. Whether they're positive or negative doesn't matter, as long as they're all positive or all negative.
 
@Semi ah I see
@Hippa oh, I thought the charge had to be spherical/cylindrical
but you're saying the entire situation should be spherically/cylindrically symmetric
 
@ShaVuklia Nah, for instance if you take a randomly charged sphere (as in, the charge changes randomly accross the surface), the field inside won't be constant
 
@Semi I understand that we can deduce the field from the flux when we have this symmetry, but how do we know for sure there won't be a net electric field if there is no symmetry.
right, maybe I should do some exercises on this
 
9:21 PM
@ShaVuklia There can be a null field in some places, with no symmetry
 
There will in general be a net field whether or not there is symmetry.
As an example, consider a dipole.
 
waaaaiitt
I think I understand it
don't they just mean that as soon as you're within a sphere/cylinder, the net field is zero?
 
For any Gaussian surface which contains the dipole, there will be no net flux. But thr dipole certainly produces a nonzero field (almost) everywhere in space
 
@ShaVuklia Yep, as long as the charge is constant on the sphere/cylinder and that there's no other charge inside
 
If I have a series of non-empty, bounded, closed sets $(C_i) \subset \mathbb{R}^n$ such that $C_{n+1} \subseteq C_n \forall n \in \mathbb{N}$, I'd say, without proof, that the limes, I'll call it $C \subseteq C_n \forall n \in \mathbb{N}$, is this true? Are there any exotic examples where this is not true? Perhaps for others spaces?
 
9:24 PM
I interpreted it as a small sphere at some distance, not as a huge sphere that is all around you
 
Eh, I'd not even include that clause
Consider a metal ellipsoid.
 
@Felix.C How is $C$ defined?
 
Is the net electric field at a point within the ellipsoid zero?
 
woops, should have said it was charged
 
no sorry that was my mistake
I confused electric field and charge
I understand that we're just dealing with surface charge
 
9:27 PM
Well, I did want to talk about the charge as well :)
 
@AlessandroCodenotti It's $C:= \bigcap_{n=1}^{\infty} C_n$
 
Right.
 
@Felix.C isn't it contained in all of the $C_n$ by definition then?
 
Point I was going to make is that while the entire surface is equipotential, the local surface charge density is higher where the curvature is greatest
 
I see
 
9:30 PM
So the charge won't be uniformly distributed
 
@AlessandroCodenotti I think what he's asking is if it's non-empty always.
 
@AlessandroCodenotti Ok is that so? I was never really sure about how to deal with limits of series of sets...
@Fargle No, it wasn't what I meant, I've seen a proof that it isn't empty
 
Oh, then it's true in $\Bbb R^n$ and false in general I think
 
Of course, this entire objection is irrelevant for a sphere/cylinder
 
@Felix.C Oh. Well, if it's in the intersection, then it's in $C_1$ and $C_2$ and so on...
 
9:33 PM
I was just unsure since we don't have a epsilon-delta thing with limits of series of sets, afaik, and sometimes math surprises you...
 
yes I see @Semi
 
No variation of local curvature -> no variation of surface charge density
Blah blah blah
 
@AlessandroCodenotti But you don't know a example where it is wrong by any chance?
 
haha :P
 
@Felix.C what you asked is always true, by definition of $\bigcap$ mostly
 
9:34 PM
Ok
 
@Felix.C Actually, it might not always be non-empty, even in $\Bbb R^n$.
(I know it's not what you asked, but it is relevant.)
 
The dipole example is really important to me btw
 
Consider the sequence of sets $[n,\infty)$.
 
@Fargle he's intersecting closed sets
 
It tells you that the info you glean from Gauss's law is very limited.
 
9:36 PM
Oh--he said bounded.
 
@Felix.C This doesn't use boundedness, but it does use that the space is compact, which $\Bbb R^n$ is not.
Hence why my counterexample works.
 
Knowing the charge enclosed tells you nothing, in general, about how that charge is distributed
 
Well if you have a compact space every subset is bounded, no? :)
 
But in the bounded case, you have a nested sequence of compact sets, which will have non-empty intersection.
 
9:37 PM
@Semi yea, because Gauss' law only tells you something about the flux, so you should be able to write your flux in terms of the electric field, to say something about the electric field, right? In the case of the hollow cylinder for instance, we can choose a Gaussian surface such that $E$ is constant, and therefore a zero at the RHS will give us that $E$ is zero.
 
Something like that.
So huzzah for symmetry :)
 
Wy do we choose $\delta= min \{\delta_1 , \delta_2 \}$ rather than max?
 
@JingWeng That way we have $|x-a|<\delta_1,\delta_2$
 
9:47 PM
@JingWeng Because here you want $|x - a|$ to be less than both $\delta_1$ and $\delta_2$, so that you have $|f(x) - K|$ and $|g(x) - L|$ less than $\epsilon$.
 
Man I just watched Blade Runner for the second time
Best movie ever
 
We already have our chosen $\delta_1 $ and $\delta_2$, and we choose $\delta=min\{\delta_1, \delta_2\}$, yet how is it possible that we can say $|x-a|<\delta \leq \delta_2$ if we say that $\delta_1 <\delta_2$ ?
 
@JingWeng Because if $\delta_1 < \delta_2$, then $\delta = \delta_1$.
 
Well then $\delta = \delta_1 \le \delta_2$
 
I see that part
But the question is how is it greater than $|x-a|$?
 
9:51 PM
Because $|a-x|\lt\delta_1, \delta_2$ so it's less than the minimum
 
Because you found $\delta_1$ and $\delta_2$ to be greater than $|x - a|$. They're the numbers that put $f(x)$ and $g(x)$ (respectively) within $\epsilon$ of $L$.
 
But we don't know if they are greater than? since it's an if statement?
 
What do you mean ?
 
It's the hypothesis
of the conditional
 
Well yes, but that's what you're doing when you check continuity.
You want it so that if $0 < |x - a| < \delta$, then $|f(x) - L||g(x) - K| < \epsilon$
And you already found a $\delta_1$ so that if $0 < |x - a| < \delta_1$, then $|f(x) - L| < \sqrt{\epsilon}$, and similarly for $\delta_2$.
So now if you're less than both, you can say something about their product.
To put it heuristically, for a function to be continuous, if the change to the input is small, then the change to the output is also small.
 
9:59 PM
Is it also fine if I said $\delta=max\{\delta_1, \delta_2\}$?
 
@JingWeng No, because that allows $|x-a|$ to be in between $\delta_1$ and $\delta_2$.
Let's say that $\delta_1 < \delta_2$ in this example.
If $\delta = \delta_2$, then if $|x-a| < \delta$, it might still be $> \delta_1$, in which case it's not true that $|f(x) - L| < \sqrt{\epsilon}$.
And if $\delta_2 < \delta_1$, then $|g(x) - K| < \sqrt{\epsilon}$ similarly messes up.
 
For the first time Mike and I enter at the same time.
Bose–Chaudhuri–Hocquenghem codes and Baker–Campbell–Hausdorff formula and Cartan–Brauer–Hua theorem all have BCH in them, hehe.
 
@Fargle I don't get when you say $\delta_1$ in between $\delta_2$. Do you mean to say that $\delta_1<|x-a|<\delta_2$?
 
Yes.
 
How did you get that?
 
10:09 PM
It's possible if you only force $|x-a| < \mathrm{max}(\delta_1, \delta_2)$.
If it's only less than the biggest of the two, it might still be more than the smallest of the two.
It can't just be less than one of them for the bottom bit to be true; it has to be less than both.
 
@JingWeng Draw some pictures on the real line. Visualisation helps to motivate the proofs, and then after that the rigorous proofs are independent of the pictures.
You can't understand the proof by staring at a bunch of inequalities. You need to see pics to really get it.
Of course, the actual way some people do it is to manipulate the pics in their heads, but since they can't tell you how they do that they tell you to draw.
 
@JasonBourne Bernstein-Cantor-Hschöder
 
@Astyx Aha! You deserve another star!
@Astyx Oops star removed because you cheated by moving the letter!
@Astyx You remind me of Aston Martin, a very expensive car that Bond uses.
 
kek
 
Did I now ? :p How is that ?
 
10:20 PM
Well, both start with Ast.
 
Oh my name ofc
Sorry I'm not as awake as I should be probably
Or surely the opposite : I'm not as sleeping as I should be
Speaking of which - bye !
 
It seems that the full volumes of Dieudonne's Treatise on Analysis are no longer sold.
This is very sad.
I would prefer buying this set than the Bourbaki set.
 
Mais @Astyx est toujours là ...
 
@Astyx See you in your dreams!
@TedShifrin Hello, Mr President.
 
rolls infinitely many eyes ... but even I, as big as my blabbermouth is, would not give the Russians the most secret of intel secrets
 
10:24 PM
The firing of FBI director is the last straw.
I say, it is the last straw.
 
No, we went past the last straw the day after. Read my comment.
 
If the straw is the last and we go past it, is it still a straw? Hmm.
 
@Fargle: You never did tell me what you were doing other than unprocrastinating. :)
 
@Ted: I'm having trouble with one of your exercises, the one where you express a vector in terms of the dot product and cross product of that vector with another.
 
10:33 PM
@Hippa and his memes ...
 
@TedShifrin I should have a class on Galois theory somewhere next year :D
 
Oh, @Fargle. Well, the point is to describe the solution(s) ... think geometrically.
Why is that, @Hippa?
 
@TedShifrin Well, we have to chose 3 classes per trimester, and that one looked really interesting
 
I thought you would pick sheaf theory ... more stalks in there.
You can't do Galois theory before group theory and ring theory ...
 
Not every class exists :( and I suppose they're going over the basics, at least quickly, since there's no prerequisite class
 
10:35 PM
No, but Galois theory is the end of the story (for a first-year course), not the beginning.
Does it not have prerequisites?
That's foutu.
 
The class has very nice ratings though, so I'll give it a try
 
What else are you taking?
 
@TedShifrin Oh, well I can do that. There will be a component of $x$ along $a$, with magnitude $x \cdot a$/$\|a\|$, and a component along $(a \times x) \times a$ with magnitude $\|a \times x\|/\|a\|$.
 
I'm not happy with that at all, @Fargle. Describe the solution set of each of those equations.
 
In Maths ? Not a lot, unfortunately I had to make some choices when classes were overlapping.
@TedShifrin Distributions and Differential calculus
 
10:38 PM
So you already know all the basic linear algebra, analysis, multivariable analysis ... ? I didn't think so.
Qu'est-ce que c'est que ça?
 
Distributions et calcul différentiel
 
To me that should require a solid foundation in Lebesgue integration and measure theory
 
Diff calc is only an introduction
As for distributions,
 
Hullo
 
Oh, two different courses. The first is an introduction to differential geometry. The second is some serious analysis (so there are surely Lebesgue integration prereqs for that).
 
10:43 PM
Well, they know what they're doing, so I suppose the prereqs will be taught at some point. And there's support classes if I'm in difficulty.
 
Do you have a faculty member to give you advice?
 
Like, a teacher ? there's a database of feedback from students on all the classes
 
Yeah, in the US students have a faculty adviser who helps them make decisions
And who should be aware of what you know and what you do not yet know
Even Demonark occasionally listens to some advice from his faculty adviser.
 
@Ted Do you mean like, when you choose a major a professor in that major advises you? We have academic advising but they're not faculty :P
 
Well, we have a powerpoint that sums up the prereqs for each class, and there's nothing special for math classes, so I'm fairly confident they'll start from what we already know
 
10:46 PM
LOL ... I'm never "fairly confident" about such things.
Have you had math at the university yet, or is everything from before?
 
We have math classes this year... but they're a bit special, we didn't chose them. They're supposed to make sure everyone starts next year with solid bases.
 
Demonark: To make sure you satisfy university general requirements, etc., a non-faculty member is fine. To guide you through your math curriculum and give you guidance for grad school, etc., a faculty member is highly desirable. But you told me you had such a faculty adviser.
Oh, OK, @Hippa. I don't know what you've done this year, because you've hardly been around here at all.
 
Oh I didn't have an adviser, I just went to people and asked
 
@TedShifrin Well, I haven't done anything (in science) for 7 months, and in april I came back to university and classes started
 
I thought you were off doing military or something, @Hippa. But maybe you'll explain it to me in a month.
 
10:50 PM
@TedShifrin Yep, that was the first 7 months :-)
 
D'acc.
 
@TedShifrin The solution set of the dot product equation is exactly the plane perpendicular to $a$ containing $(x \cdot a/\|a\|^2)a$, and the solution of the cross product equation...is more subtle.
 
Be more specific, @Fargle, without referencing $x$ (which makes your discussion, as it were, circular). $\{x: a\cdot x = c\}$ is precisely what?
 
That or maybe I mentioned "my adviser" at one point, who wasn't actually faculty? I dunno, but anyway, unless there's a surprise next year we don't have any formal faculty advisers.
 
Hi. While notation "$x,y\in A$" is fine, should I see "$(x,y)\in A^2$" as a more precise option and prefer it?
 
10:52 PM
I mean, faculty can't be bothered keeping up with rules and regulations, but some of them should care enough to guide you through a decent major, warn about teachers, etc. Maybe that's something Paul Sally did and no one has replaced him.
@Julius: Unless you're particularly working in the plane $A^2$, I don't see why. If I'm talking about multiplying $x,y\in\Bbb R$, I'm going to say that and not $(x,y)\in\Bbb R^2$.
 
@TedShifrin I don't know how to describe it other than as the plane perpendicular to $a$ going through $\frac{c}{\|a\|^2}a$.
 
Well, @Fargle, you didn't say anything like that before. I'm happy with that.
Can you give me a similar description of the set described by the cross product?
 
Hmm, I know Fefferman is in the position that Sally used to be, Boller is probably the one best suited to take an advising role, though there's nothing official or scheduled, just that a lot of people tend to ask him things. Though various professors will say very different things
 
I know it's a one-dimensional curve, but I don't know how I'd describe it without knowing that the magnitude of the cross product involves $\sin \theta$.
 
I know one of my old teachers recommended quantum mechanics, which I found interesting
 
10:57 PM
@Fargle: Try to work out a precise geometric description.
 
I might have an aneurysm first.
 
I worry about people less "aggressive" than you, Demonark.
 
Hi Ted
 
Bah @Fargle.
Hi @Danu. You get everything submitted, I assume?
 
Finally submitted...
Yeah, at 10 AM this morning
 
10:58 PM
Great!
 
Then had a horrible emotional rollercoaster of a day, both about this and about unrelated matters.
 
Really? I thought I was too aggressive :P
 
@Danu: You're too young for manopause.
 
Oh, it isn't that ;)
 
@Fargle: What can you tell me about the vector $\vec c$ if $\vec a\times\vec x = \vec c$? And what about $\vec x$?
 

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