Game Development

Lasse

12:00 PM

I didn't see what jon posted but I'm very used to what jon posts, as are everyone here

Alexandre Vaillancourt

@Lasse I think you're pushing your luck there..

doppelgreener

I agree swearing and being nice can be done together, but Stack Exchange policy is we shouldn't be swearing in chat anyway because we're trying to create an appealing environment to facilitate amateurs and professionals. Loads of swearing isn't going to contribute to that goal; at best it will detract from it. (The scenarios where lots of swearing increases appeal to an amateur or professional, that is probably not the kind of individual we actually want to attract to the site.)

Kevin van der Velden

@AlexandreVaillancourt yeah, that missing a between swear and fucking

user92578

since we didn't do winter cleaning

user92578

I suggest we do spring cleaning

user92578

12:02 PM

and go through the transcript and delete all messages with swear words

user92578

it would make the chat environment just so much friendlier to everyone

Lasse

@AlexandreVaillancourt I wasn't pushing my luck

doppelgreener

@Lasse That is not an opinion the Be Nice policy shares, and "I can do anything I want and it's on you to deal with it" is victim blaming. We can and do use reasonable common sense to determine offensive behaviour, though.

Chris McFarland

Game Development & Polite Swearing

Lasse

I'm happy to leave if I'm not welcome as who I am

PearsonArtPhoto

12:04 PM

Dev Blog- Colonial Sea Trader- Building a city, step by step. kd7uiy.com/2017/05/dev-blog-colonial-sea-trader-building.html

I thought we were Game Development & Procrastination. Or was it the other way around?

doppelgreener

@PearsonArtPhoto Procrastination Development & Games?

Chris McFarland

times have changed
I think we're being productive lately

PearsonArtPhoto

More like Procrastination & Game Development, but I'll take that already.

user92578

Game Development, Procrastination & Suspending jgallant

Blue Bug

Let's calm down. I can see stuff going on.

doppelgreener

12:08 PM

room topic changed to Game Development: Game development and other polite discussion. Game development conversations have priority. Please star responsibly. Be Nice applies here. [game-design] [game-industry]

Just adding a link to the end to the Be Nice policy.

room topic changed to Game Development: Game development and other polite discussion. Game development conversations have priority. Please star responsibly. Be Nice applies here: gamedev.stackexchange.com/help/be-nice [game-design] [game-industry]

user92578

cool

doppelgreener

Hm. Time to make a feature request for link markdown to work in room descriptions...

Blue Bug

I didn't really see what was happening

but must it be something very serious to be suspended from chat?

user92578

well it's just a 30 min suspension

Blue Bug

still it is something if you get smacked in the face for 30 mins in the middle of conversation

I dont think pointing fingers to modder will help

doppelgreener

12:12 PM

17 mins ago, by doppelgreener

@Tyyppi_77 I removed that post as offensive because directly swearing and insulting people is not consistent with Be Nice. Removing posts that way comes with an automatic 30 minute suspension. I've been lenient on swearing in general because y'all are used to it, though even that shouldn't occur in Stack Exchange chat with any real frequency.

Here's the context.

Blue Bug

so is swearing banned from now on?

user92578

I'd like to hear your thoughts on why this wasn't an issue before? Are our very own GDSE mods terrible mods?

user92578

Is Pearson a terrible mod?

Alexandre Vaillancourt

@Tyyppi_77 it's never just a 30 minutes suspension. Flags add up, and sometimes mods can check how many flags a user has and decide to extend the suspension beyond that. 30 days, 180 days, 365 days, etc...

PearsonArtPhoto

Mods can always check, they just don't always do so.

user92578

12:17 PM

Oh that's true yeah.

user92578

Aight I've found 18 lines of code (some are method calls but anyways) that stop the performance issue

Chris McFarland

!

Mithrandir

@BlueBug there isn't a blanket ban on swearing in chat (although is kinda discouraged) - but swearing at a user or their question is unacceptable, no matter how much 'experience' they have in the field, or how long they've been chatting here.

John Hamilton

Yeah, be nice explicitly bans "vulgar" terms (which is not a good word to use there imho) but not swearing itself.

Kevin van der Velden

Vulgar is a dumb term to use as it doesn't actually define anything

And heck, racists insults for example aren't considered vulgar in a lot of places

John Hamilton

12:22 PM

Like I said, not a good word to define anything. For the Queen of England, saying pants instead of trousers could be considered vulgar.

doppelgreener

@Tyyppi_77 I don't know why stuff like this wasn't being enforced before, but that's not a reason to not enforce it now.

2

PearsonArtPhoto

IT problems at my day job, so I guess I can justify doing some work on my game now... Hmmm...

user92578

That wasn't really my point. I was asking what your views are on mods that don't enforce this.

Kevin van der Velden

@PearsonArtPhoto don't, bad idea

Don't mix work equipment with non-work projects

Mithrandir

It doesn't matter - different mods will moderate differently, and that's okay.

Kevin van der Velden

12:24 PM

There are nasty potential legal consequences there

user92578

How is that okay though?

user92578

Depending on who pops in and to what room, certain people are suspended or aren't suspended?

doppelgreener

@Tyyppi_77 I haven't really formed anything solid on that front yet.

John Hamilton

Yeah, it's like the mods are the judges and the judges don't always give the maximum sentence to everybody for everything.

ArtOfCode

@Tyyppi_77 here's a solution: follow policies, and nobody gets suspended \o/

you ignore network policies at your own risk

Kevin van der Velden

12:25 PM

@ArtOfCode the policies aren't strictly enough defined in some cases =p

user92578

^

Mithrandir

There's the policy of 'when in doubt, don't'.

ArtOfCode

then if you want to be sure, follow the strict interpretation of the policy

PearsonArtPhoto

The computer that I could do non-work projects with barely gets used at all with real work. Long story.

user92578

How come you're all popping up in here? Is there like a secret button for mods to call for backup?

doppelgreener

12:26 PM

@Tyyppi_77 Rest assured I'm not going gung-ho on this room, I've spoken with GDSE's elected moderators as well.

PearsonArtPhoto

There is, it's called flagging something.

ArtOfCode

@Tyyppi_77 yep, it's big and red and inviting

Mithrandir

@Tyyppi_77 ssh! It's secret!

user92578

@doppelgreener And what did they say? Did you talk to both Josh and Byte?

doppelgreener

Also, we've yet to figure out how to implement the Moderator Consistency Hive Mind Engine into the mod hats, so mods necessarily behave differently.

@Tyyppi_77 The conversation itself is confidential, so I can't answer that.

Kevin van der Velden

12:27 PM

@ArtOfCode the strictest interpretation of the policy isn't follow-able

John Hamilton

@Mithrandir The problem is, you're in doubt at first, but doubt goes away as you get used to the people in the room, especially in a room that has fewer visitors like this one.

ArtOfCode

@KevinvanderVelden 'tis in this case: don't swear

Kevin van der Velden

@ArtOfCode define swear?

"heck" is according to some already a horrible word to say

Mithrandir

2 mins ago, by Mithrandir

There's the policy of 'when in doubt, don't'.

user92578

@doppelgreener Well then why'd you bring it up?

ArtOfCode

12:28 PM

@Mithrandir this

Kevin van der Velden

Some people, might, if really stressed, say something like "h e double hockey stick"

dcfyj

@KevinvanderVelden Some people find the word "suck" distasteful

Mithrandir

@Tyyppi_77 because you asked if we talked to them. The answer: yes, and the rest is confidential.

doppelgreener

@Tyyppi_77 You seemed concerned about inconsistency and what the GDSE moderators were doing or not doing and what my relationship with them might be, so I figured I'd at least bring that up.

user92578

@Mithrandir Well not at first.

Kevin van der Velden

12:30 PM

@dcfyj yes

user92578

user92578

What the mod UI probably looks like.

dcfyj

It's all relative, but in general swears are the 4 letter ones.

Kevin van der Velden

@Tyyppi_77 I wanna know what's behind the swirley things

@dcfyj love? Hope?

dcfyj

haha

Kevin van der Velden

12:32 PM

@dcfyj AAH EVIL

Oh hey evil is one too

user92578

@KevinvanderVelden for you I could probably show but there might be some stuff there that's perhaps me breaking some policy... not that the all powerful blues can't probably figure that out otherwise

Mithrandir

... sigh

user92578

Looks like Jon's suspension has ended but understandably doesn't seem to eager to return

ArtOfCode

^ actually, @Tyyppi_77

Mithrandir

NOOOO

doppelgreener

12:34 PM

Anyway, if you look back though the past few days of history you can see swearing and nobody getting suspended for it. This incident was because of someone insulting somebody, which I'm not going to tolerate, whether they're on the site or not.

Mithrandir

YOU DIDN'T CENSOR

dcfyj

@Tyyppi_77 He does tend to stay angry for a bit

ArtOfCode

@Mithrandir D:

John Hamilton

@dcfyj or he just shuts the window and goes about his business till the mods are gone lol

user92578

@doppelgreener IIRC Jon's rant wasn't aimed at anyone.

dcfyj

12:35 PM

@JohnHamilton lol, that too

user92578

Of course I can't tell for sure since the evidence is now deleted.

dcfyj

The mods can all easily look at it, so I'm sure they can tell

Blue Bug

U know to be honest I am kinda less here because there was this fluctuation of mood and less people started to be here.

user92578

@ArtOfCode Damn I was thinking that "the reds must be darker, these hurt my eyes", but went with the bright ones ayways.

Blue Bug

And I kinda feel like even lesser people are here than it used to be.

John Hamilton

12:36 PM

I didn't even see what he said, but I've never seen Jon actually insult anybody. Sure he rants a lot, but I haven't seen actual insults :o

dcfyj

@JohnHamilton I know he was pretty mad at that one reviewer on steam, I don't recall exactly what he said though

doppelgreener

@Tyyppi_77 Be Nice doesn't care if the rudeness and belittling language was directed at an extant or example individual or not — the language itself is not OK to use. What would the random Googler think of our site reading this transcript? (Do they know the person does or doesn't exist?)

user92578

@doppelgreener You just said that this was not the case

user92578

"This incident was because of someone insulting somebody, which I'm not going to tolerate, whether they're on the site or not."

user92578

(emphasis mine)

doppelgreener

12:38 PM

Yes?

user92578

"the language itself is not OK to use."

user92578

"if you look back though the past few days of history you can see swearing and nobody getting suspended for it"

user92578

it's like a loop

user92578

"you can swear but not at someone"

dcfyj

@Tyyppi_77 does it really matter?

doppelgreener

12:39 PM

@Tyyppi_77 correct

user92578

"it doesn't matter if you direct it at someone, you can't use the language"

dcfyj

It's over and done with

doppelgreener

@Tyyppi_77 Rude and belittling language isn't OK. I'm not suspending anybody for swearing. Insulting a person (including a hypothetical construct analogue of a real person) is language I won't tolerate or be lenient with, Be Nice forbids it.

user92578

@dcfyj I really want to know where the line is since I've had no issues with Jon's behaviour and hence can see myself doing similar stuff

Mithrandir

12 mins ago, by ArtOfCode

@KevinvanderVelden 'tis in this case: don't swear

user92578

12:41 PM

but "I'm not suspending anybody for swearing."

Mithrandir

12 mins ago, by Mithrandir

2 mins ago, by Mithrandir

There's the policy of 'when in doubt, don't'.

dcfyj

Pretty sure it just boils down to be respectful of others, regardless of whether or not they're on these sites.

user92578

You're saying different things.

ArtOfCode

@Tyyppi_77 Go read Be Nice again. Carefully. Then do what it says.

doppelgreener

@Mithrandir That's not quite the case since I'm not enforcing Don't Swear in the room. Jgallant was suspended because of swearing at/about someone to insult them.

user92578

12:42 PM

Just tell me what to do. One mod is saying not to, one is saying it's all right.

John Hamilton

@Mithrandir Like I said. There's the problem of people getting used to each other and not doubting stuff they would doubt in a new environment. This is ambiguous as hell.

user92578

Don't direct me to the ambiguous "Be Nice"

dcfyj

@Tyyppi_77 Greener is saying, swear if you like, but don't belittle someone, period

user92578

You need to add a text field to the panic button so that you can all be saying the same thing instead of providing each slightly different answers.

Alexandre Vaillancourt

@Tyyppi_77 I guess he means he's not suspending anybody for swearing yet.

doppelgreener

12:42 PM

@Tyyppi_77 "Don't insult people. Don't tell someone to go [any expletive] themselves."

@dcfyj Yes, this. Thank you.

ArtOfCode

@Tyyppi_77 That literally is the policy. If you refuse to read or acknowledge it, then how do you expect to behave how is expected of you here?

Alexandre Vaillancourt

Consistently swearing will attract flags and suspensions.

ArtOfCode

Yes, it's slightly ambiguous. Yes, you have to use your common sense (gasp!). No, that doesn't give you a free pass.

Kevin van der Velden

But be nice says it's fine to swear

After all, I say fuck at work when it's appropriate

Mithrandir

Swearing generally and swearing at someone are entirely different.

user92578

12:44 PM

@ArtOfCode I thought about behaving as I've behaved for the past three years, being suspended for stupid insults aimed at someone who's probably insulted me or my game first but not about being suspended for swearing.

ArtOfCode

@KevinvanderVelden and Meta says that it's forbidden on main sites, and just about acceptable, in moderation, in chat.

Kevin van der Velden

@ArtOfCode Cool, that's clear then =p

(not a joking sarcastic =p, damnit text)

user92578

53 mins ago, by Tyyppi_77

May 3 at 19:45, by Tyyppi_77

I'd weigh in that cursing was not an elephant in the room two days ago...

user92578

You can replace "two days" with any time unit that's longer than let's say three weeks

ArtOfCode

So: if you want to be really sure, don't swear. Just stay away. If you feel swearing is necessary or appropriate, do it in moderation. And never swear at people.

5

user92578

12:46 PM

All was fine but I imagine we were scaring away thousands and thousands of newcomers.

user92578

I like these talks, nicely cleans that star board from actually interesting content.

doppelgreener

@Tyyppi_77 All was not fine. Maybe fine for you personally, but site policy wasn't being followed.

@Tyyppi_77 I'll probably clean it up afterwards.

Mithrandir

Also, another room just got frozen and deleted for not changing when they were told that they were repeatedly crossing lines. I'd take that as a warning.

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