English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

03:31

It can be nice to spend your childhood in a rural area.

As long as you get adequate upbringing and education.

@Cerberus But now with the prevalence of aerial warfare and further habitation of low-lying lands it could be catastrophic?

Cerberus

@Færd Well, it wasn't exactly rural.

Færd

Ah.

Cerberus

It's 20 km from the centre of the capital.

Robusto

@tchrist If you're talking about Macron's victory, it's more like 30 points over the fascists. 65-35

Cerberus

And the school I went to was among the country's best.

Færd

03:36

Good for you!

Robusto

@Cerberus What school?

Cerberus

But, yes, lots of pastures in the surrounding areas.

Robusto

Is pasture the opposite of future?

tchrist

@Robusto Less bad.

Cerberus

@Robusto It can be, yes.

Robusto

03:37

Hnmm, sounds ominous ...

Cerberus

Oh?

Robusto

If all the pastures are gone, where will the horses graze in the future?

Færd

In the future.

Robusto

To put it another way: if pastures are past, futures may be fewer.

Cerberus

Futures are futile.

Unless you're a prescient stock-broker.

@Færd Where did you grow up?

Robusto

03:39

But futura can be bold.

Futura (typeface)

Futura is a geometric sans-serif typeface designed in 1927 by Paul Renner. It was designed as a contribution on the New Frankfurt-project. It is based on geometric shapes that became representative of visual elements of the Bauhaus design style of 1919–33. It was commissioned as a typeface by the Bauer Type Foundry, in reaction to Ludwig & Mayer's seminal Erbar of 1922. Futura has an appearance of efficiency and forwardness. Although Renner was not associated with the Bauhaus, he shared many of its idioms and believed that a modern typeface should express modern models, rather than be a revival...

Cerberus

I wish to underline that.

Færd

@Cerberus In Arak.

Robusto

Do you underline or underscore?

Færd

Until I was 9. Then Tehran. Tehran was way better for me.

Robusto

Is it Tehran or Teheran?

Færd

03:42

We call it Tehran.

Robusto

Do you aspirate the h?

Færd

Yup.

tchrist

/x/ ?

Robusto

Then that's probably why it's sometimes transliterated as Teheran.

Færd

@tchrist /tɛ:hˈrɑ:n/

tchrist

03:43

ok

Cerberus

@Færd Ah, it looks nice.

A new city.

Færd

@Robusto Because of the aspiration? How does that make for the extra e?

Cerberus

We say Teheran in Dutch.

tchrist

I've been sitting here waiting up for the boys to come in for the night and here they're both sleeping behind me without my having noticed they came in.

Cerberus

Although the h becomes more like a /j/.

Robusto

03:45

And I'd just like to go on the record as saying WAY TO GO, FRANCE! A country our fascists mock as being weak on everything has just taken the moral high ground from us (which, admittedly, we ceded to almost every country in the world by our elevation of a gross, vile, incompetent lecher/mysoginist hypocrite to the presidency).

@tchrist cats come in on little fog feet

tchrist

Putin didn't manage to get the news out early enough.

Cerberus

Oh, but Le Pen would have been much worse than Trump.

I don't know why France should be considered weak by anyone, though?

Robusto

@Færd Because without the extra syllable, we just drop the h altogether: Teran.

Cerberus

Le Pen never stood a chance, luckily.

Robusto

@Cerberus Much worse than Trump? Much worse?

tchrist

03:46

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys

"Cheese-eating surrender monkeys", sometimes shortened to "surrender monkeys", is a pejorative term for French people. It was coined in 1995 by Ken Keeler, a writer for the television series The Simpsons, and has entered two Oxford quotation dictionaries. == Origin == The term "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" first appeared in "'Round Springfield," an April 1995 episode of the American animated television show The Simpsons. In the episode, budget cuts at Springfield Elementary School force the school's Scottish janitor, Groundskeeper Willie, to teach French. Expressing his disdain for the French...

Cerberus

@Robusto I know, it's difficult to believe.

Robusto

@Cerberus Republicans mock France all the time.

Cerberus

Oh, really?

Robusto

They do. They call the French "surrender monkeys" ... I kid you not.

tchrist

Yep.

Cerberus

03:47

Surrender to whom?

tchrist

They really do.

Færd

@Cerberus Well, yeah, on its Wiki page. I don't hold against it any grudges though. Just that I sorta embarked on a new lifestyle in Tehran.

Cerberus

France is amongst the more belligerent and nationalist Western countries.

Færd

@Robusto Oh, right.

Robusto

They seem to forget that without the French, we'd still be the most exploited province of the United Kingdom.

Cerberus

03:48

@Færd OK so what changed for you in the capital?

tchrist

@Cerberus A natural fit for Russia.

Robusto

@Cerberus They got overrun by the Germans in the early stages of WWII (as did the rest of continental Europe) and they got beat by the North Vietnamese (as did the United States).

Cerberus

@tchrist Not that belligerent.

@Robusto Ah, OK. Well, in the Interbellum, France was indeed weaker than it had ever been. But now it is not weak compared to its peers.

Robusto

When France refused to join the U.S.-led attack on Iraq after 9/11, that's when the "surrender monkeys" appellation started resurfacing in spades.

Cerberus

Huh.

tchrist

03:51

Because of course Iraq had invaded the United States.

Cerberus

What did France have to do with the Twin Towers, and what did Iraq have to do with either?

Robusto

Don't even ask.

Cerberus

That's a confusing discours.

Robusto

It doesn't have an answer.

Cerberus

OK.

Robusto

03:51

Except to say that George Bush wanted to be a "war president" ...

Cerberus

Who doesn't?

Robusto

And the thing I fear now is that when Trump's numbers get lower, he's going to want to get the ego-massage one gets from being a "war president" (yup).

Cerberus

Even Trump was praised by respectable media when he throw a few bombs around.

tchrist

NATO Article 5 has been invoked exactly once.

Robusto

@Cerberus Exactly.

Cerberus

03:52

What numbers? Supporters in parliament?

Robusto

@Cerberus The polls.

He's polling at around 41% approval rating, an all-time low for a president in the early stages of a presidency.

tchrist

It greatly disgusts me.

It would at 10% of that level.

Færd

Throwing bombs is not the way to end the war in Syria. It won't be the final step, at least.

Cerberus

@Robusto Right, but those polls don't affect him directly, do they?

Færd

Why don't they get round to the final step and do away with makeshift strategies, I wonder.

Robusto

03:54

@Færd No, but I'm sure he didn't need the Cialis that night.

Cerberus

@Færd Probably because then they'd have to do nothing, since there is no good strategy in the Syrian conflict?

Robusto

@Cerberus He is completely consumed by his image, and can't tolerate criticism or disapproval.

Cerberus

OK in that way.

Can't Breitbart just make up some 78% statistic to keep Trump happy?

Robusto

He watches Fox News, and they get him into trouble spouting their fake news, which then shows up in his tweets.

I'm not kidding. He really does.

Cerberus

It's interesting, by the way, that yesterday's great Macron hack was done by the American far-right.

tchrist

03:56

@Færd After all, if that's all it took, wouldn't it be over by now?

Robusto

Read this:

washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-has-a-dangerous-disability/…

Cerberus

@Robusto I have read about it.

Færd

@Cerberus Talks. Political debates. Providing a calm medium for that. Or trying to do so, at least.

Robusto

I don't always agree with George Will, but he really nails this one.

Cerberus

He bases his policy on what he saw on Fox the other day.

Robusto

03:57

Yes.

Færd

@tchrist I'm not saying it can be solved overnight.

I just think there might be a better path to follow.

tchrist

Than killing people? Sure, tell that to Assad.

Cerberus

@Færd Ah, well, then the result will be that Assad will murder and torture lots of people, with Russian and Iranian help.

Robusto

> It is urgent for Americans to think and speak clearly about President Trump’s inability to do either. This seems to be not a mere disinclination but a disability. It is not merely the result of intellectual sloth but of an untrained mind bereft of information and married to stratospheric self-confidence.

tchrist

I hate it when Clausewitz is right.

Cerberus

03:58

The alternatives are hardly better, of course, but still.

tchrist

@Robusto And when did you think you would ever agree with George Will?

Robusto

Actually, never.

tchrist

Yep.

Færd

They could be talked into giving up theirs chemical weapons or accepting some other restrictions.

Cerberus

@Færd That was tried.

Robusto

03:59

I admired him as a stylist and rhetorician, that's all.

But damned if he doesn't nail Trump.

Færd

@Cerberus Not persistently, perhaps.

Cerberus

And even without his chemicals, he's still a horrible murderer.

tchrist

He's dangerously stupid, and the danger is not just from his stupidity alone.

Cerberus

@Færd Well, I think it was done as thoroughly as possible under the circumstances?

Færd

Lots of others like him.

Cerberus

04:00

I'm not saying bombing Assad is a good idea. But neither is any other approach.

It's just hopeless.

Færd

I'm just not sure that wiping out individuals will lead to stable conditions.

Cerberus

Indeed not.

Robusto

@tchrist The danger is that he will act without thought, empathy, or restraint.

tchrist

Exactly that.

Robusto

In other words, as usual.

Cerberus

04:01

His successor, or, worse, successors, may be even more terrible.

Færd

Maybe stopping those who inject the region with arms and weapons would be a good idea.

Cerberus

Probably.

tchrist

He's ruled by his own insecurities and blindnesses, and cursed by Dunning-Kruger.

Robusto

@Cerberus Why do you think he chose a one-man Christian crusader as his running mate?

Cerberus

But how can they be stopped?

@Robusto I didn't know Assad had a running mate...

tchrist

04:02

@Færd Blockade Russia, then?

Cerberus

In fact, I didn't even know he liked to run.

But, yes, I get your point.

tchrist

@Færd I'm sorry. I don't mean to be flip. It is a terrible problem.

Cerberus

If Trump should be impeached, his immediate successor would be no better, probably.

Robusto

He might be a bit more circumspect, that's all.

Cerberus

@tchrist And America.

But either blockade would be difficult and risking a big war.

Færd

04:04

Russia and allies arm or aid some of the groups. The West arms some others. It just fuels the fire.

Robusto

@Cerberus Neither will happen.

Cerberus

@Robusto And perhaps more effective for it, which may not be what we want.

@Robusto Indeed not.

@Færd Yeah.

Especially when you arm groups that you're not sure will remain stable.

tchrist

@Cerberus But not in the same way. You would grind your teeth but you could sleep without fear of immediate nuclear holocaust at the drop of a hat.

Cerberus

Perhaps arming the Iraqi Kurds or the Iraqi army has not been such a bad move, though.

Robusto

@Cerberus The problem is, when do we start admitting that maybe having a merely evil president is better than having a terribly dangerous, incompetent one? In which case impeachment would be the solution. But that just isn't in the cards—yet.

Cerberus

04:06

@tchrist Oh, to be honest I'm not really afraid of that?

tchrist

Because you don't live in Seoul?

Cerberus

@Robusto Maybe the latter is better...

tchrist

@Robusto It. Takes. So. Fucking. Long. To. Fix.

Cerberus

@tchrist Seoul would not be the subject of a nuclear holocaust, at least not now.

But, either way, I'm not super afraid that Trump will start a serious, big war.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes. These first 100 days of the Trump presidency have lasted six years already. I don't know how I can take another 3.75 years of this shit.

tchrist

04:08

@Cerberus Isn't that the best way for him to stay in power?

Robusto

@Cerberus I feel like that's inevitable, just as soon as he needs a war to salve his wounded pride.

I mean, he'd rather dump 24 million people off the health care rolls so that he may have a cosmetic "victory" in Congress.

Cerberus

But a big war is immensely unpopular among his advisors and parliament, I believe?

tchrist

Here's the thing.

Cerberus

An invasion in North Korea would already be too big, I think, even without nuclears.

tchrist

He is trivial to manipulate, to control, by people who have him figured out.

Cerberus

04:10

Yeah.

tchrist

It's a terrible thing when the whole world's intelligence communities know how to pull his strings.

Robusto

@tchrist This. Just tell him what a genius he is and he'll go along with what you want.

Cerberus

But still, I think he listens to people in his inner circle.

Robusto

Did anybody really think the Russians wanted a strong president for America? No, they wanted a weak one. The weaker the better.

Cerberus

And can he even declare war without approval from parliament?

tchrist

04:11

@Robusto This was, of course, the point.

Well, and this.

Cerberus

If someone who wanted war managed to plant a large number of people in his inner circle, that would be very dangerous.

Robusto

@Cerberus Who needs to declare war when all he has to do is order the military to strike, at any level up to and including nuclear?

Cerberus

All right, but would he do that, if his advisers were against it?

Færd

Trump has no initiative on igniting a huge war. And he's not arbitrarily influenced, I think.

Cerberus

Like his family, his ministers.

tchrist

04:12

Bannon?

He's a rabid dog.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes, and I wouldn't want to hang from a rope until the Republicans in Congress grow a spine and do what's best for the country.

tchrist

And I say that in the strictest Islamic sense of that term.

Cerberus

I believe Bannon absolutely does not want to be involved in a foreign war, though?

Robusto

@Cerberus If it kills non-whites, I'm sure he does.

Cerberus

Meh.

tchrist

04:14

And Pence wishes to bring about the Second Coming.

Cerberus

I thought Bannon was responsible for Trump's non-interventionist campaign ideas?

Robusto

@Cerberus Zwarte Piet better watch out. Bannon is coming for him.

Cerberus

Besides, hasn't Bannon already fallen from grace?

@Robusto Noooo.

Don't touch our pieten!

Robusto

@Cerberus He's still got a job in the White House, so ...

Cerberus

Sure.

But he's no longer in the security council thingy, I believe?

And Trump is said to be listening to Bannon's rivals nowadays?

Robusto

04:15

Anyway, this is already a worst-case scenario. If it's not a complete cluster-fuck, it'll do until one gets here.

Cerberus

That's what I read in the papers, at least.

Robusto

@Cerberus The reason Bannon was demoted was that he crossed swords with Trump's son-in-law. Not because he's evil. Trump has no problem with evil.

Cerberus

Sure.

But either way, he has lost much influence.

Robusto

Not enough. As I say, he still works in the White House, with a top-level security clearance.

tchrist

@Cerberus Fallen from grace? When Steve Bannon hangs from a gibbet at his window for the sport of his own crows will he have fallen far enough from grace for my tastes. He is a liar, and a corrupter of men's hearts. We will have no peace until all of his works have perished, and those of the dark master to whom he would deliver us.

Cerberus

04:19

@Robusto I'm not saying it's all fine. But I think at least Trumps favourite advisers at the moment are somewhat less insane than Bannon.

Færd

Maybe these are not the people who trigger the big moves. Jared looks like a potato. Bannon, I don't know him that much, but he seems to be another easy answer.

Cerberus

@tchrist Now, now.

We all agree that Bannon is horrible.

tchrist

Stephen Miller: "He will not be questioned!"

Robusto

avclub.com/article/…

Anyway, this is getting me riled up again before bedtime. Got a tough ride tomorrow, so I'll be leaving you all now. Laterz.

Cerberus

@Robusto Adeus!

Færd

04:29

@Cerberus Arak didn't provide me with the cultivated environment that, in retrospect, one desires to have spent one's childhood in. Maybe it was OK. My immediate family was, at least.

In Tehran I went to good schools and met people from many walks of life at an early age, which was good.

Cerberus

@Færd OK in that way.

Capitals are usually nice places to live.

I can't imagine wanting to live anywhere else at the moment.

Færd

And I struggled with child abuse and stuff in Arak. Moving to Tehran solved that problem.

No reflection on Araki people. I'm not generalizing.

But now I wish I could live in the country.

Cerberus

05:13

@Færd OK that sounds tough.

@Færd Oh, really?

Away from interesting people?

Færd

05:49

@Cerberus People don't interest me that much anymore. And the necessary exchange of info can happen via the internet.

Jason Bourne

07:56

Have we considered changing the URL for ELU as mentioned in the past to reduce the number of bad questions?

iamRR

09:01

Hello! How will you feel if a girl gives you a gift on your birthday?

How will you feel if one girl gives you one gift on your birthday? Is there any difference between the two?

terdon

@iamRR we have given you as much information on this as we can. We can't help you anymore. asking the same thing over and over again with different example sentences won't get you anywhere.

iamRR

@terdon Yes you people did help a lot on this and for which I'm really thankful. It's just that i cant get over with this singular plural thing.

If 'a girl' means one girl then can we substitute one in place of 'a' without altering its meaning?

iamRR

09:34

@terdon Could you plz guide me on this. Thanks!

terdon

@iamRR No. As I said, I have given you all I can.

Go back and re-read the excellent explanation Færd gave you yesterday.

But asking the same question over and over again will only serve to annoy people. If you haven't understood by now, then we are not the right people to ask.

Jason Bourne

@iamRR I agree with what terdon said. It's the same question essentially. No point asking again.

@iamRR Maybe you can read some grammar books that discuss a/an/the in depth, listing all their uses.

iamRR

09:55

@JasonBourne I guess I am okay with the usage of articles. I only have a problem in understanding singular plural.

Jason Bourne

@iamRR I am wondering whether there is something else, other than not understanding, that is making you ask all these questions. Is there some other reason?

@iamRR Actually, I have problems with articles too. Until now I still don't fully understand them myself.

iamRR

@JasonBourne See, i tell you now where I'm finding it hard to understand the singular plural concept. As you made this sentence "Actually, I have problems with articles too." If you said "Actually, I have a problem with articles too." then what would have been the difference?

@JasonBourne - "Actually, I have a problem with articles too." Does this mean that you have just one problem with articles?

Jason Bourne

@iamRR In this case, you can see my inadequacy as a big problem or many small problems, so essentially they mean the same thing. What is your native language?

iamRR

@JasonBourne Hindi

Jason Bourne

@iamRR Do you have the same problem in Hindi, with articles?

iamRR

10:09

No, i think not. I just don't have to think much which speaking anything in hindi

terdon

@iamRR What do you think? After the hour that Færd spent helping you yesterday, you said you understood. So go back, read it again, and tell us whether it means just one.

Jason Bourne

@iamRR Actually, although there is something common about all your questions recently, I must add that individual cases have their own peculiarities too.

terdon

It all comes down to the difference between a definite and indefinite article though.

Jason Bourne

@terdon Only now do I know that an ox is castrated, after speaking English for so many years. =) See the latest question on ELU.

terdon

heh :)

Jason Bourne

10:14

@iamRR You know, native speakers often have doubts about the use of the language too. Not everything is so certain in matters of language. After all, it is not an equation where 1=1 and 1 not equals 1.0000001.

I am guessing the castration is so that they don't get violent during work.

Now I am wondering if it is ethical for humans to castrate them.

I am also wondering what other animals humans castrate, and for what purposes.

terdon

Horses, dogs, cats, off the top of my head.

Jason Bourne

Talking about castration and head, LOL.

I wonder why APA recommends Webster's New World College dictionary. Maybe they just have something against Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, LOL. I have seen the entries in the former and they are really not that great.

iamRR

@JasonBourne - Again sir, as you say 'Native speakers often have doubts about the use of the language too'. Now if I tweak it like this - 'A native speaker often have a doubt about the use of the language too'. Is there any difference between the two?

Jason Bourne

Anyway, WNWC might not have another edition again. It was taken over by Houghton Mifflin, and its flagship dictionary is the American Heritage, which is vastly superior. So I think the current edition might be the last.

@iamRR Again, sir, it is the same question. =)

@iamRR You should read up on the use of the articles in the generic case.

iamRR

@terdon - Sir, you say that it all comes down to the difference between indefinite and definite articles. Can you link thus with singular plural concept and could you plz help me explain that?

terdon

10:25

@iamRR I really don't know how else to tell you this: we have given you all we can give you, stop asking the same question. If you still don't understand, then we are not good enough at explaining it so please go ask someone else.

There are some things in language that you can't really explain and the only way to learn them is through practice and repetition. Language is not an exact science, it isn't mathematics and you can't just learn a formula and apply it. Sometimes you can, but certainly not always.

So, if you continue with this same question, I am afraid I will just put you on my ignore list which means I will no longer be seeing ay of your messages.

Jason Bourne

@iamRR I am not annoyed by your questions at all. But I was wondering whether you have some condition that makes you focus a lot on something specific. I say so because I have some mental illness myself. =)

iamRR

@terdon - Okay, I'll keep that in my mind.

@JasonBourne - I don't know why is it. But yes, i do become cautious when i see singular/plural noun. I just start wondering what if plural were used instead of singular or vice versa.

Jason Bourne

@iamRR Is this affecting you negatively in other areas of your life? If it isn't, then there's no problem, but if it is, then you need to do something about it.

iamRR

@JasonBourne - Yes, maybe! Its just my studies have got affected.

@JasonBourne - What do you suggest? What should i do to get over with this?

Jason Bourne

10:43

@iamRR You need to understand if this really is a problem, by which I mean whether it is causing you a lot of suffering. If it is, it may help you to see a psychiatrist or psychologist or something.

Færd

@tchrist Sorry. Let me correct that: /tehˈrɑ:n/.

iamRR

@JasonBourne - Well, i don't think i have that much problem. I will try to deal with it all by myself.

Jason Bourne

@iamRR I also suggest you study from a general grammar book to improve your English, and then maybe after that your doubts will be cleared.

Færd

@iamRR Just let it go. It will be sorted out by itself. Partly because you already know the answer; you're just too insecure about it.

Think of other stuff. So many other grammar points out there.

And so many things other than grammar.

iamRR

@Færd - Sure, sir

Jason Bourne

11:02

Oops, LOL.

terdon

@JasonBourne :)

Færd

There was something about beautiful women here. Was that a mirage?

@iamRR Not everyone's a sir, sir. :)

Jason Bourne

Maybe he is a madam.

Færd

He who?

Jason Bourne

iamRR, of course.

Færd

11:16

Ah. I read that madman.

Mitch

12:13

Able I was madam, I'm Adam, ere I saw Elba

Jason Bourne

12:28

@Mitch Dude!

Mitch

12:44

@JasonBourne Dude! Babe dud?

Jason Bourne

Every time Edwin appears on the main site, my posts are downvoted.

Anyway, who cares? I am going to delete my accounts anyway. =)

He has about 2000 upvotes and 4000 downvotes, says everything. =)

@Mitch The GAGA theorems we talked about can only be found in the paper, and in one textbook. I can't find it anywhere else.

Mitch

I think there should be a site where you know exactly who voted what way.

It would turn into a tit-for-tat all out war.

Jason Bourne

I think it's bad to downvote posts that are OK.

It makes the poster feel bad.

Mitch

bots would be employed to DDoS individual's voting accounts

death by milinos of cuts

a millino is a very small million

Jason Bourne

It doesn't matter to me, of course, but I do take it a bit personally, things like that.

Mitch

12:52

I stopped answering. I only comment. That way nobody can downvote

Jason Bourne

It's like saying your post really sucks.

Mitch

I'm really impressed that everybody is pronouncing Macron's name correctly with the nasal 'õ'

Jason Bourne

I have learnt that people who say they pronounce things correctly are really pronouncing it wrongly.

Mitch

but wonderingly misannoyed by the mispronunciation of Marine Le Pen as though it were 'Marie luh pin'.

Or Beijing as 'bay zhing' instead of the equally easily pronouncible 'bay djing'

people are dumb

Jason Bourne

Like my bull cow cattle ox answer, why must it be downvoted?

Sure, it's not rocket science, but I write the sentence properly, take time to make sure it is correct, and maybe provide links too.

Mitch

12:56

@JasonBourne there are a lot of bull questions...which one are you talking about?

@JasonBourne I'm sick of the literally question, with people trying to defend the non-literal use of literal

Jason Bourne

@Mitch english.stackexchange.com/questions/388245/… here. I am not complaining, just talking to you and being honest with what I feel

Mitch

@JasonBourne seems like a reasonable answer

back in a sec

Jason Bourne

@Mitch Well, I don't know what zhing and djing mean exactly there, lol.

@Mitch But I don't like people transliterating Mandarin in ways other than using hanyupinyin, because anything else just gives a very bad idea of the actual pronunciation to foreigners.

Mitch

13:15

@JasonBourne It's a pain to get the palatal fricative and affricate characters

like the 's' in 'measure' and the 'dg' in 'judge'

or (british style) 'leisure' and 'ledger'

Jason Bourne

@Mitch Oh, I don't call that zh, lol.

@Mitch But you may or may not know that Beijing doesn't exactly sound like judge.

Mitch

@JasonBourne there are some superweird things in pinyin that is (very understandably) impossiblet to get by roman alphabet knowers.

like 'q'

ok that's about it.

well no, the difference between p and b (and all the other pairs)

Jason Bourne

Do you speak a little Mandarin?

Mitch

in European languages it is almost always unvoiced/voiced

in Mandarin unaspirated/aspirated (but both mostly unvoiced

does cantonese do the same thing?

@JasonBourne the 'j' in Beijing certainly is more like 'dg' in judge than the s in measure

Jason Bourne

@Mitch Yes, I am just saying something else.

@Mitch Don't know Cantonese.

Mitch

13:23

@JasonBourne I've probably asked you this before and have forgotten the answer, but in Antarctica, of those who are from PRC (or ancestors) aren't more people from the south than the north and therefore more likely to speak natively Cantonese than Mandarin?

Jason Bourne

@Mitch I think they are from all parts of PRC and so try to speak a common Mandarin instead of individual dialects.

Mitch

13:35

@JasonBourne Oh. That makes sense. I may be confusing/conflating Antarctica which is very cosmopolitan (having equal slices of the pie divvied among the exploring nations (Norway gets a big slice but so does US/USSR/UK/France/Australia... Argentina?)) but similar places were originally a South China possession and so almost entirely Cantonese.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lol, similar places

how's it going jb

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 like Australia could have been similarly sliced up. But instead it has a derivative West Country accent (from UK) because of its most common settlers

For the record, that last bit was made up out of whole cloth.

Also, WTF. It is a misuse to use 'literally' as 'figuratively'. It may be a very common misuse, but to use it that way is a misuse.

It is a misuse of descriptivism to consider the figurative use of literal as a useful one. Just because lots of people make the sae mistake doesn't mean that it should be considered acceptable.

The NYT don't use "ain't" ... yet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

no but Obama did.

Mitch

That's not even in the same situation.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 so he was wrong.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch or the NYT is too stuffy

Mitch

13:42

he talks colloquial-like all the time

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

colloquial != misuse/wrong

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 when you want to transfer information, using established meanings reduces confusion. Allowing literal to be used figuratively is the most confusing thing ever.

Except for using 'not' as 'not not'

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch meh

there are literally worse things

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think you do care. Your feigned non-chalance covers up a deep-seated uncertainty.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch More like a deep-seated sense of "I won't use it that way"

Mitch

13:46

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No. This is our last battlefield. If we let this one pass, that's it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's a malapropism.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

May as well ban hyperbole. and hyperbolas. and hyperbaric chambers

Mitch

I'm wondering now if the style guides say to avoid literally at all costs. Literally.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch nah, it's hyperbole.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think they're OK as long as you use earplugs and swallow at the right time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you deal with hyperbolas your way, I'll deal with them mine.

terdon

13:48

@Mitch Not really. Why? From such mistakes doth language change, and all that.

Don't get me wrong, I hate it just as much as you do, but if it becomes widespread enough then the meaning of the word will change.

Hell, we now have nucular in the bleedin' dictionary!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

nucular submarines rely on nucular power, which is derived from splitting the nuculus of the atom, dontchano

terdon

argh. ..

Slightly more fun when considering that culus means ass in Latin.

nuculus sounds like new arse.

Which is about what I think of the word so there's that.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes, it is:

from the NYT style guide. they're doing what I was expecting, basically recommending not to use it at all.

@terdon mentioning that is misleading.

terdon

?

Mitch

Yes we can see that language changes, that is a fact.

But when you need to communicate ideas, it is useful to be intentional. ambiguity can be used to useful effect. but the lack of literal use of 'literal' almost makes that single word Turing complete.

Literally.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…