English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

ana ng

02:44

Hello!

Færd

03:31

Hi!

ana ng

I have been working on a personal project and was wondering if someone could review my work.

I have taken a single page of today's press hearing by Sean Spicer and have attempted to improve the speech to make it into "better writing".

I have tried to basically simplify it and reduce clutter.

but without taking away any meaning from what was being said.

I was wondering if someone could look at what he originally aid and then look at my alterations to tell me if i did a good job or not or if it can be improved.

would u like to take a look?

Here is a link to my project: docs.google.com/document/d/…

the first page are my edits. the second page is the original speech.

you can make comments in the document

Færd

It's basically a casual, shoot-and-hope situation in here. You say/ask something and hope to get a useful response, and sometimes you do! I hope you get helpful comments on your work.

ana ng

03:46

Thanks. this is just a personal exercise to help me improve my writing skills. there are no high stakes here.

I noticed that Sean Spicer's speeches are very cluttered. I thought he would make excellent practice. Later on I plan to move on to Obama's speeches as they are very well done and improving them would be extremely difficult.

I tried starting with Trump's speeches but it just didn't work out.

Færd

@anang His prose can actually be highly and complexly organized: english.stackexchange.com/questions/311381/…

I'll say no more so that your question remains within sight for visitors.

M.A.R.

09:03

@Mitch Nowruz Mubarak!

Huh. Romanizing that stuff is creeping me out.

Martin AJ

10:30

Is this sentence correct? "All I'm trying to do is making clicked (seen) posts highlight."

skull petrol

mak ~~ing~~

make

M.A.R.

Nah, seems fine to me

Martin AJ

@skullpetrol are you sure? there is "is" in the behind of it.

@M.A.R. ah thx

skull petrol

What does "(seen)" mean?

M.A.R.

@skullpetrol visited, as in a link

skull petrol

10:39

I still don't get it.

All I'm trying to do is making clicked (seen) posts highlight.

(seen) is a link? @MartinAJ

All I'm trying to do is make previously seen posts highlight.

terdon

@MartinAJ What skullpetrol said: make not making.

Otherwise, your original example means "everything I am trying to do results in making seen posts highlight"

Whereas what you want to say is "all I am attempting is to make . . ."

M.A.R.

Oh, then I misunderstood the sentence

Martin AJ

11:37

@terdon that's the one I was looking for .. thx

terdon

@MartinAJ OK, then say All I'm trying to do is make clicked (seen) posts appear highlighted."

Martin AJ

good, thx again!

terdon

You're welcome.

Lawrence

11:58

Just wondering whether I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here (links to 1 question and 3 related comments to follow). Comments, please?

0

Q: So, Can linking verbs be used with "continuous tenses"?

What Are Linking Verbs? A linking verb is a verb which connects a subject to its predicate without expressing an action. A linking verb is used to re-identify or describe its subject. Ex: Alan is a beast. Alan seems drunk. But I would say that some linking verbs ca...

I don't see the problem with "Do you still feel hungry?". It doesn't have to be a regularly occurring phenomenon for it to be in the simple present tense. It can relate to a single event. For example, after eating a less than satisfactory meal, one diner might ask another that question. There would be no expectation that the experience be regularly repeated, or repeated at all, and repetition is not a prerequisite for asking the question that way. — Lawrence 5 hours ago

@Lawrence, why don't they say "are you still feeling hungry?". "I'm feeling better" is common — Tom 4 hours ago

@Tom I'm not saying they don't. I'm just saying that the simple present tense is also used to signify the, well, simple present. — Lawrence 15 mins ago

terdon

I don't see anything wrong with "Do you still feel hungry?" either. I'd have probably said Are you still hungry, but there's nothing wrong with the other one.

Mitch

12:32

@M.A.R. as weird as: حپی نو یر ?

@englishstudent Yes!

It's a catchphrase of mine.

I think I need a new catchphrase.

For example...

This is all horseshit

It's not as common as 'bullshit'.

And 'nonsense', though is a non-literal synonym, is anodyne. Just doesn't give much punch to it.

Also usually things that one wants to call 'nonsense' are actually quite full of sense, but because they are interpretable in so many directions (often opposite), and so you are prevented from doing anyone reliable thing with it.

If you can come up with a reliable synonym of 'bullshit/horseshit' that isn't 'nonsense' or nonsense or old-fashioned twaddle, that would be cool.

Thanks!

englishstudent

@Mitch I will let you know, I'm good with words. feels smug.

@Mitch Yeah so you could try "Gobbledygook", "Hogwash", "Mumbo jumbo", "phooey", "hooey" etc. How many do you want?

Mitch

12:53

@englishstudent wipe that smug off your face

englishstudent

@Tonepoet In English can we say “Sorry if you got that impression” when we know they got that impression or is it necessary to say “Sorry you got that impression” without if? Thought I’d ask because I use both versions interchangeably. Feel free to reply anytime you are free.

Mitch

@englishstudent Oh. good research (which probably means the first hits on a thesaurus)

englishstudent

@Mitch haha. No!

Mitch

but all of those are old-fashioned sounding

englishstudent

What about "bollocks"?

You can use that too but you are an American I reckon.

Mitch

12:55

sonds like some old guy with a cane talking about the time when the first horseless carriage came down the street.

englishstudent

lel

Mitch

@englishstudent hm... that's good. but is a little on the vulgar side. sounds british to americans (may not be understood).

'word salad' is used for when something actually makes no sense but uses words in the general topic area but don't really make a coherent thought.

maybe I'm looking for something more familiar/informal than 'equivocation' but not so informal.

englishstudent

@Mitch Hmm I didn't know it was vulgar per se. Movies are ruining my English I think.

MetaEd

@Mitch Sounds like you are running for Congress, where you can't say "bullshit" in public but you need a million synonyms.

Mitch

"I don't understand the direction of what you're saying, and it seems like you are intentionally making what you say ambiguous'

@englishstudent people don't talk for real like how they talk in movies. 'scripting' puts words in peoples mouths in weird ways.

but then... it's usually proper grammar.

'proper' = 'schoolbook'

Tonepoet

13:00

@englishstudent I would not be surprised if it's in common usage, especially if people are mistakenly following the pattern of the same sentence with anybody instead of you, but you'd be better off using that as a complimentizer if you need an epithet to fill the void.

Mitch

!= 'informal infelicities but accepted and natural'

@MetaEd yes. except for the Congress thing

skull petrol

@Tonepoet did you celebrate poetry day?

Tonepoet

@skullpetrol Is your skull made of petrol?

Mitch

@MetaEd 'We do not hear his words'

@MetaEd 'prevaricator' sounds like a felony

skull petrol

Nope, my skull needs petrol to think @Tonepoet

Mitch

13:03

@skullpetrol and to get it you need a skull petrol portal

and if the skull is made from luxurious caterpillar goo, it's a

silk skull petrol portal

Tonepoet

@skullpetrol Ah, of course! I should have realized that using skull as a noun-adjunct would describe a variety of petrol, a variety especially formulated for high octane thinking.

Mitch

which is made of slimy pieces of

skull petrol

Indeed @Mitch that would be a matter of logistics.

Mitch

slick silk skull petrol portal parts

This is all horseshit

Just a gentle reminder

skull petrol

:-D

englishstudent

13:07

@Tonepoet Ok thanks. But you are using technical language tonepoet. Not that I'm not familiar with technical grammar language, I am, but have kind of forgotten most of it. I used to read heavy grammar books a long time ago.

Ok. I tried to make sense of what you wrote.

Mitch

and you can get such parts at a:

slick silk skull petrol portal parts pret a porter

sulks

because...

I lack slick silk skull petrol portal parts pret a porter

Tonepoet

@englishstudent It also doesn't help that I may be misusing it somewhat, in hindsight. =P

Mitch

Because I really'd like them to smell much nicer but:

I lack lilac slick silk skull petrol portal parts pret a porter

englishstudent

So my internet is crawling today.

Mitch

But that's probably a good thing. since:

tchrist

13:12

formicating

Mitch

I lack a colicky lilac slick silk skull petrol portal parts pret a porter

tchrist

leave the collies

lassie

terdon

@tchrist Making ants?

tchrist

@terdon Or crawling on your skin

Mitch

@tchrist If you want to buy those dogs from ethiopia you could go to:

Haile Selassie's 'Sell a Lassie'

terdon

13:16

And if you just want to say hi to them you can go to

Haile Selassie's 'Sell a Lassie' and hail a Lassie, lassie.

Mitch

Sassy!

tchrist

formicate

Verb: formicate (third-person singular simple present formicates, present participle formicating, simple past and past participle formicated)

To move like ants.
Lowell
an open space which formicated with peasantry
To have a sensation like the movement of ants.
formīcāte
second-person plural present active imperative of formīcō...

Mitch

??

I mean I get the 'Lowell' part.

terdon

@tchrist Oh wow. I had no idea that existed in English.

Mitch

but..

@terdon It's in the Bible

Deuteronomy

terdon

13:19

@Mitch I don't read salacious literature.

Mitch

something about the Edomites

@terdon It's not for children

terdon

That it most certainly ain't.

Mitch

@tchrist Haha. You trolled me man. I really thought 'lowell' was one of the definitions. It's just badly formatted when oneboxed. or something.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah, and one of the definitions is just the Latin pronunciation

MetaEd

13:59

Formicate, v. intr. To crawl like ants; transf. to swarm with moving beings. Hence formicating ppl. a. = Formicant.

Formication. Path. An abnormal sensation as of ants creeping over the skin.

1854 Lowell Jrnl. Italy Prose wks. 1890 I. 165 An open space, which formicated with peasantry.

The Wiktionary entry is directly derived from the New English Dictionary entries above.

terdon

14:12

> An open space, which formicated with peasantry.

Which? Not which is? Or simply An open space, formicated with peasantry.?

MetaEd

14:23

An open space which crawled with peasantry.

Or which swarmed with peasantry.

terdon

@MetaEd Ah, intransitive. OK.

MetaEd

And an interesting bit of metonymy.

englishstudent

16:01

@Tonepoet Hindsight is 20/20. =)

I hope I used that idiom correctly.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent Yeah, that's right.

englishstudent

Good. Good.

M.A.R.

16:27

@Mitch Shivers

ana ng

18:42

Hello!

M.A.R.

Jello!

ana ng

I was wondering if someone here can help me with something

I have been working on a personal project to help me improve my writing skills

I have taken one page of sean spicer's press conference from yesterday and attempted to improve it

I did this by trying to simplify his speech and remove clutter

I have been wondering if someone could review my work and tell me how I did or offer suggestions. I was also hoping that someone could tell me whether I removed too much from is speech at the cost of removing some of its original meaning

Here is a link to my exercise: docs.google.com/document/d/…

the first page contains my edited version of his speech

the 2nd page contains spicer's original speech

englishstudent

@Mitch By the by I'm used to saying off of. I know both versions are correct. But just wondering in American movies/TV shows I often come across off of so is the difference dialectical? Also off of is difficult on the mouth, at least for me. I'm thinking of breaking the habit.

ana ng

you may add comments to the document I linked to

englishstudent

@anang I didn't read the document but judging from the chat your English is quite good.

ana ng

18:51

@englishstudent I need to be professional though. My dream is to get an internship in washington DC. I must improve drastically. I am a terrible writer compared to the competition.

englishstudent

@anang Wow, that's a nice dream. Good luck!

I love writing too. But I never feel like letting others proofread my work, just lazy at that sort of thing I guess.

ana ng

@englishstudent if you have anything you need edited I will do it for you. I am probably not as strong as you but I do really want someone to review my work.

englishstudent

19:07

@anang Oh I see. I appreciate your confidence in me but before we move forward with proofreading each other's work let me tell you that I'm a non native speaker of Engish. Not newbie to English though, been practicing all my life.

But I am pretty damn good, that's for sure.

Pardon my smugness.

ana ng

@englishstudent I'll take it! I have confidence in people who have been practicing all their lives. The majority of my friends are ESL people. 99% of my relatives are ESL people.

englishstudent

So to land an internship Washington DC I guess you will need a lot of practice. Also try to find a proof reading site where you can ask people who are good at proof reading. Here is fine too but at those sites you will get a lot of attention.

@anang Alrighty then. Cool!

ana ng

@englishstudent I don't know any such websites.

englishstudent

I have heard about Lang 8. Let me dig a little bit more.

M.A.R.

Lang 8 no longer supports new user registrations.

englishstudent

19:11

That sucks.

M.A.R.

Yeah, it's vacuum

ana ng

That is okay! If you can't find any websites we can still help each other.

Mitch

19:28

@englishstudent I wouldn't characterize 'off of' as dialectal, but rather as a natural variant. or rather...

'off of', which does sound weird in isolation because it sounds like two prepositions together which is not expected, usually comes about from a phrasal verb, like 'get off' (= remove onesself from the top) followed by a prepositional phrase showing the manner, eg 'of the table'.

eg "Get off of the table" = you're dancing on the table and it might break so come down to the floor. (aha, another two prepositions together that is really a phrasal verb followed by a prepositional phrase)

but then the 'of' is elided and you can say "get off (of) the table" "Get off the table!!"

ana ng

@englishstudent I believe it is poor writing to write "Get off of the table".

Mitch

THere's no prepositional phrase there. 'off the table' doesn't mean anything!

ana ng

the "of" does not serve any purpose. It can be eliminated without loss of meaning.

Mitch

@anang It is terribly poor manners to be up there to begin with, especially during dinner.

ana ng

"Get off the table" is better writing than "Get off of the table"

Ah but what if this was written instead: "Off the table!" as a piece of dialogue

Mitch

19:34

Phrasal verbs are usually avoided in formal writing (eg the stylistic admonition to avoid prepositional phrases at the end of a sentence is actually a misdirection, it is more intended to avoid phrasal verbs.

@anang They both sound perfectly fine, 'off' or 'off of'

Færd

I wonder if they have slightly different meanings, off of the table and off the table. Prolly not though.

ana ng

@Færd no difference in meaning

Mitch

'Off the table!" as a command has a lot elided.

Færd

@anang Based on first-hand knowledge? Or what?

ana ng

@Mitch "Off of" may be technically correct but it introduces clutter. Provides no meaning. It is as bad as saying "If you will"

Mitch

19:36

'Get off of the table' is perfectly acceptable writing, as acceptable as 'Get off the table'

@anang "if you will" in what context?

ana ng

@Færd I've been focusing on clutter and the elimination of clutter. "off of" is very common clutter.

Mitch

If you should avoid "Off of" those same contexts should have you avoid "Off" also.

ana ng

@Mitch as in "Consider, if you will, that bla bla bla"

M.A.R.

O.O Part of language is about clutter

Not everywhere is Stack Exchange.

Færd

@anang Without good cause.

Why would you want to be so concise?

englishstudent

19:38

@anang I know but it is not ungrammatical. Poor? Yeah some say that, I agree. Thanks for the input by the way.

Mitch

@anang Yes, that is a fairly formal context, and you probably aren't going to be issuing orders in such a context, or on top of tables that need to be gotten down from.

(more mutliple prepositions!!)

englishstudent

@Mitch Nice explanation.

ana ng

@Færd I am trying to get into a Washington D.C. They have some insane standards there. I absolutely understand that such extreme conciseness is not found in most places. I speak from Washington D.C. perspective.

Færd

If you will has its use to, when you're inviting the listener to make accommodations for you for example. I think.

Mitch

@anang I see your general compositional point, that clutter and extraneous words that are empty filler can be distracting or waste. like avoiding overblown metaphors.

englishstudent

19:40

@Mitch But according to COCA both off of and off are common I hear.

I haven't looked myself though.

ana ng

@Færd the thing is in washington they have no time to waste. they will get peeved if you waste their time with "inviting the listener to make accomodations for your example". They will dislike it strongly.

Færd

@anang Please don't mete them out as general advice to everyone then. :)

Mitch

@anang lately in the news it seems that communication standards have dropped considerably

both semantics and style

ana ng

@Færd even if they are not of the general standards it is undeniable that they have the very best and strongest standards. Nothing wrong with trying to emulate the very best of the best.

Mitch

de stylistibus non disputandum

ana ng

19:42

@Færd I believe it is good to encourage everyone to do the very best they can.

Færd

@anang How do you define 'best' in language?

Mitch

what is best is a matter of opinion.

@Færd jinx

Færd

Jinx!

Mitch

double jinx!!

ana ng

@Færd @Mitch this is true. but the thing is if you use Washington D.C. standards you can get anywhere in writing.

englishstudent

19:43

triple jinx!

Mitch

if you do it again, there's no getting out of it. ever.

@anang What about NYT standards?

ana ng

@Mitch I challenge you to find a single NYT article where "If you will" is used in the way earlier discussed

Mitch

Or Chicago Manual of Style? Or The Guardian? Or the India Times?

Or the Daily Mail? haha, there you really do have to get off the table.

englishstudent

Or Oxford standards? I don't know, just taking part in the on going conversation.

Færd

@anang Well, that's not correct. You can get in DC, or the places which have their standards. But you can't get in a bar fight.

Mitch

19:45

Not fancy enough to get off of the table.

englishstudent

By the way I see what @anang is saying. They have a good point though.

Mitch

@englishstudent Pfft. Oxford is overrated. I'm looking at you @MattE.Эллен

englishstudent

Don't ask me to explain it.

Færd

I guess everyone sees their point.

ana ng

Find a single NYT article where "If you will" is used that way. Also find an article where "off of" is used in the way earlier discussed.

Mitch

19:46

@Færd Bar fight? You can't get in a bar period with DC standards

@anang 'if you will' is probably ever only used in speech.

Færd

That was just an extreme example.

ana ng

@Mitch then it isn't good writing to use it then is it?

Færd

Mitch is saying it's mostly not writing material at all.

englishstudent

@anang By the way you used "then" twice here, which is fine I guess. I will write the same thing as "Then it isn't good writing to use now is it?" I like "now" in such sentences. Correct me if I am wrong though.

Where did everyone go?

Quiet all of a sudden.

Boo!

ana ng

@englishstudent u are correct

M.A.R.

19:50

Where did everyone go?

Mitch

Newsweek: He didn't think it was that great; still, it took the edge off of his drug cravings, so he kept on using. # In May 2008 (search for 'off of' and choose the 'context' tab)

@englishstudent Now now!

ana ng

@englishstudent it was poor writing on my part

Mitch

@M.A.R. I was searching coca. Man that place has everything

englishstudent

@Mitch Ever been a bar fight? Just messing with you but erm curious too I guess. =)

M.A.R.

I was flagging NAA on SO

@Mitch I thought 'plae' is some fancy word that I don't know

Mitch

19:52

@anang No true Scotsman rights like that.

That's sic

ana ng

@englishstudent I should have said "then it issn't good writing to use it"

M.A.R.

Your puns are sic

Mitch

@M.A.R. How dare you use such language! My ears are blushing.

ana ng

@Mitch As a proud philosophy major i do not partake in that fallacy

Mitch

@englishstudent I've seen one on TV, if that counts.

englishstudent

19:53

@Mitch haha.

Mitch

@M.A.R. Could be. maybe latin?

englishstudent

That's funny.

Mitch

@M.A.R. That's a sic burn

M.A.R.

@Mitch I thought of 'plea', but then that wouldn't make much sense, which is more than I can say for stuff you say most of the time

Mitch

@anang You may not partake but you well may commit

ana ng

19:54

@Mitch I did not commit neither. I didn't know Newsweek wrote like that.

Mitch

@M.A.R. Exactly.

Which of course makes no sense as a response.

englishstudent

@anang Also you can hang around here, chat with us. Your English will get better. :P

Mitch

So by not making sense it makes its own sense.

get it?

M.A.R.

@Mitch Great, right?

'plae' could be the nickname of some Greek philosopher

ana ng

@Mitch It could be a slip-up on the part of Newsweek.

englishstudent

19:56

@anang "I didn't know Newsweek ~~wrote~~ write"

Færd

Stop nitpicking!

ana ng

@englishstudent thanks! I'm always struggling to get better

M.A.R.

Nit stoppicking!

englishstudent

Well I didn't mean it that way. @anang is cool with it I am sure. :)

Mitch

@anang You committed a 'no true scotsman' switching of goal posts when I gave an example of (what I considered and I expect many would consider) a respected writing news source (Like you unnamed DC writing and NYT) but then said no that's not an example of good writing.

@M.A.R. it's plato's nickname.

he hates it.

Færd

19:57

Then carry on nitpicking then.

Mitch

because in greek it sounds like what they call a dogfart.

M.A.R.

And how do you know about that? ಠ_ಠ

ana ng

@Mitch I said I think they slipped up. I don't think they are bad writers by any means.

englishstudent

@anang Same here. I make mistakes all the time.

M.A.R.

Oh.

Mitch

19:58

which is funny because a 'dogfart' is a kind of ugly beetle and has nothing to do with dog farts.

either way, he hates that name.

@M.A.R. oh, you pick up things here and there.

mostly there.

ana ng

@Mitch GODDAMMIT MITCH I GOOGLE IMAGED DOGFART

lol

Mitch

@anang :D

Færd

Whatcha get?

Mitch

I had no idea really. I'm not going to confirm though.

I'm not that stupid.

ana ng

dicks everywhere

englishstudent

19:59

Huh?

Mitch

You should turn on 'safe search'. removes a lot of crap

literally

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…