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4:00 PM
yeah, it's not KG
Theres a meta question
Why KG? Wouldn't it be KC?
lemme find it
@Riker I wrote that, and now I disagree with it
4:00 PM
@WheatWizard I wrote that too, if it helps you find it at all
> In algorithmic information theory (a subfield of computer science and mathematics), the Kolmogorov complexity of an object, such as a piece of text, is the length of the shortest computer program (in a predetermined programming language) that produces the object as output.
Q: Is Kolmogorov-Complexity only for constant output?

DJMcMayhemWe have lot's of challenges that are about producing constant output. For example: We're no strangers to code golf, you know the rules, and so do I Print a 10 by 10 grid of asterisks Every single one of the "alphabet challenges" we've been recently flooded with These are very clearly kolmogor...

@Mendeleev CJam, 3 bytes: EZ*
I don't like the results but that is the consensus
@BasicSunset seems like that was EZ
4:01 PM
@Riker because of this (deleted now, sorry):
> Whoa, cowboy! 12 hours is not enough for everyone in the community to have been online, much less to have visited meta, and sometimes people need time to think through the way they want to express their opinions. This is hardly so urgent an issue that you can't wait a couple of days to see what further answers are posted and votes cast. – Peter Taylor Aug 23 '16 at 8:00
yeah I can view the deleted post ;P
Ik, but not everyone can
It's good context for lower rep users in here, or in the transcript later
@Mendeleev PowerShell, 10 bytes -- +[char]'*'
@Mendeleev kind of a cheating answer, but vim, 5 bytes: i"<ESC>ga
4:05 PM
Perhaps there should be a constant-output tag that is a subset of kolmogorov-complexity?
@DJMcMayhem I don't see the output
Are you running it locally? It doesn't work in v
@Mendeleev Nope, 7 bytes -- +'*'[0]
@DJMcMayhem when you actually understand an answer in vim
@DJMcMayhem Yes
4:07 PM
python, 8 bytes: ord('*')
@Mendeleev works for me
Where is the output?
I don't see it in the buffer
bottom of your screen
Shit, it should be *, not "
I guess they both work
Q: Clarification of global variables as "arguments"

Rohan JhunjhunwalaSay language X supports functions, but input must be done through one of the predefined global variables (all initialized to zero). Can I consider this a use of an argument? Similarly can I use this global variable (or another) as an "output argument". I believe the standards are unclear on this.

4:49 PM
@Mendeleev Befunge, 4 bytes: '*.@
Maybe near-impossible challenge
simulate chemical reaction
BTW, would transistor golf ever be a thing?
Not sure what you mean by simulate exactly but sounds pretty hard for golf
@BasicSunset Something like HO + O = H2O (I might not be correct, I suck at chemistry)
I think there'd be too many possible combinations
4:58 PM
Maybe a good challenge could be balancing a reaction
complicated molecules make complicated reaction
(Imagine cesium in water xd)
@Mendeleev :echo char2nr('*')
@MistahFiggins Well, kind of, but it only uses transistors which is the very core of digital stuff
Who knows, if someone makes a whole CPU out of it?
5:01 PM
@MatthewRoh That would result in HO2 which is not a stable molecule
Out of transistors? Been done.
@fəˈnɛtɪk extreme facepalm
May I ask a question? is SILOS (github.com/rjhunjhunwala/S.I.L.O.S) considered an "assembly" language for the purposes of the standard i/o?
also @MatthewRoh that's a really annoying avatar just fyi
@RohanJhunjhunwala wha'ts the diff for i/o between assembly and not?
How does TIO links work?
Also, can I make TIO links if I know the source?
5:07 PM
Internally, or how do you get them?
@MistahFiggins Internally
iirc they're saved on dennis'es server
@Riker in assembly languages it lets you write to memory addresses as inut and output, thats the way I envisioned input to methods when I originally wrote the language. SInce there are no arguments, essentially that is the only programmatic way to pass input.
well, can your language take input any other way? if so, then I don't think it's assembly
under that logic, assembly wouldn't be assembly
5:14 PM
@RohanJhunjhunwala If SILOS did not have I/O commands, memory-mapped input/output would be allowed, but it has I/O commands
@Riker all input methods essentially dump the I/O to mememory locations
All inputs methods in all languages do this
fair enough.
So the global variables available are not the same thing as arguments, correct?
5:31 PM
All right, thank you, I will ensure to stay more compliant in the future.
Hi @MartinEnder
@Riker Actually it does not yet.
@MartinEnder I realised it's not so easy to do what you asked. Here are the distinct Hamming distance sequences for small n paste.ubuntu.com/24177721
@Lembik how come? Are there too many invalid ones?
@MartinEnder well from which set?
if we look at all sequences that have values from 0 to n in each position there are n^n of those in total
5:42 PM
I suppose that's ok still for n = 5
Well (n+1)^n
good point
so you would get around five thousand for n = 5
there are more excluded than included
if that might be useful I can provide them
Maybe for n=3,4 for a start
ok.. I have to go for a few hours sadly
back later
5:44 PM
No worries, ttyl
6:03 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

SparklePonySnow-blow My Driveway! There has recently been a big snow, and my driveway needs snow-blowing. If the snow-blower goes over some area that it has already snow-blowed, then that area will have snow blown onto it and need to be blown again. And of course, the snow-blower cannot start in the middle...

Have we not had a pi day challenge yet? I haven't seen one
I guess not
@WheatWizard not this year. I think I made one last year
I was expecting two or three
I'm a little surprised
Q: Make this dice game fair

TrelzevirThis challenge is adapted from the British Informatics Olympiad. Dice game Two players are playing a dice game where they each roll a pair of dice, and the highest sum wins. The pairs of dice have the same number of sides, but do not have to have the same values on each side. Therefore, the g...

6:24 PM
Q: ASCII Cayley Graph

AdmBorkBorkWhile doing some research for a different challenge I'm formulating, I came across a Cayley graph, specifically this one. Since I'm one of the top ascii-art challenge writers, of course I had to make an ASCII art challenge for this. Your challenge is to produce this ASCII art depiction of a Cayl...

@DJMcMayhem ^
There's the big output challenge we were discussing earlier.
@mınxomaτ just saw that Fastly is now supporting you. That's awesome!
Sadly I'm so damn swamped with work that I can't work on alwsl. Still awesome though.
is it still at the "bash-script" stage?
Not in the private repo.
6:32 PM
@AdmBorkBork I like it
@WheatWizard I added another so you can post your Brain-Flak answer.
@Riley Thanks!
@DJMcMayhem Hah, that fractal-plus is pretty dang similar.
does anybody here have a "smart home" device such as the amazon echo?
@mınxomaτ I'm struggling to explain what WSL is built on. Do you have a good explanation you can link me to?
6:36 PM
Indeed I have.
@Riker I have an echo and a dot.
@NathanMerrill Magic and Win32.
do you like them?
@mınxomaτ what do you have?
@Riker I didn't actually mean to address you, but I do have a Google Home thingy.
ah ok
do you like it?
6:38 PM
something that isn't an hour long?
After switching it to English, it's OK. Absolutely useless in German.
this is just for a coworker :)
@mınxomaτ lol
any particular reasons why?
does it jsut not recognize german words well?
@Riker Are you planning on getting one of those devices that feeds all your information to the government (aka Amazon Echo)?
@NathanMerrill Every minute of that video is required reading (or rather watching). Otherwise misconceptions quickly arise. Set speed to 1.5x if you are impatient.
6:38 PM
@Riker The echo can't answer many specific questions, but it's good for setting timers while cooking and turning my smart light bulbs on/off.
@KritixiLithos yes
@Riley Oh god, I forgot that the hashes have to be removed
@mınxomaτ fair enough.
@WheatWizard r. i. p.
it costs 16 to get to Brain-flak
6:39 PM
@WheatWizard whitespace is free, so add a Newline
@DJMcMayhem Sovior
@WheatWizard There are only 2, I though it was closer than that.
@NathanMerrill You can skip (some of) the filesystem talk if you already know how NTFS ext. attributes work.
@Riker Non-english Google assistant tends to just ... google most of the questions that are not "what's the weather". It's like using the voice commands on an old Java brick phone.
@WheatWizard I count 12 including removing '#'s
6:42 PM
Plus the German TTS voice has some attitude. I don't like that :P
@mınxomaτ Siri tends to do the same thing despite the language
@AdmBorkBork Yeah, I'm not really active on anarchy, but I answered that and it's one of my all time favorite challenges
I only visit anarchy when someone here links it.
@KritixiLithos thus why I don't have an machine/phone with siri enabled
Never used Siri. Only ever Google Assistant, Google Home and the new Echo Dot.
6:43 PM
just a pita
I know, Siri and Cortana suck
Oh forgot about Cortana. I always nuke it from low orbit on a new Windows install.
> low orbit
why not high orbit
is there a benefit to low orbit nuking vs high orbit nuking?
What's an orbital nuking?
@Riker Low orbit is cheaper. This isn't rocket science.
oh wait
6:44 PM
@KritixiLithos .... what word do you not understand
orbital = from orbit
nuking = to nuke
@Riker Nvm, my brain just froze
did you know apple disabled siri screenshots?
rip /r/sirifail
I like the android whole screen swipe to make a screenshot. That probably looks just as stupid as telling your phone to take a screenshot.
Ok I have a distance of 4 left what should I use it for?
6:48 PM
@WheatWizard Ping me once you get the brain-flak answer up
@WheatWizard add "FLAK" to the end of the program
I could start towards a Brainfuck answer
@WheatWizard Cool! I can't right now, but I'll bounty that in a little while
6:55 PM
We are only a stone's throw away from Bflak classic rn
Is it within 15?
what's bflak classic?
@DJMcMayhem I think so
@Riker The original specs of Brain-flak
we change how some things worked a while in so there are two bflaks now
@Riker as a Junkrat main, can confirm
@mınxomaτ one other question: I'm trying to get firefox to connect to xming on wsl (not alwsl). Is this going to be easy?
nevermind, got it working :)
> In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately igloo-dome decree / Where Missouri, the sacred river ran / Through plains, measureless to man / Miles from the sunny sea.
7:11 PM
@DJMcMayhem Do you know what commit we consider Brain-Flak classic to be?
Ooh, Google Code Jam changed their webpage design
@WheatWizard first functional one?
I think there were actually bugs in the first couple
so yeah
but thats not to easy to find
Nvr mind July 2nd 2016
@WheatWizard no idea actually
7:20 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

SparklePonyMake it Snow! Since there was recently a large snowstorm in the northeast US, I want you to make it snow. Or in other words, generate a Koch snowflake to the nth depth. You do not need to make a complete Koch snowflake, just one side of the starting triangle. Wikipedia on Koch flakes: https://en...

I'd say so. Cheesy, perhaps, but legit.
:P But it is legit.
its cheating because its not payload capable
Nobody said "payload capable". Au contraire, the best way to have payload is to read your own source code.
7:29 PM
A: What counts as a proper quine?

Ilmari KaronenInstead of arguing about what counts as a "real" or "proper" quine, which I suspect is too subjective and context-dependant to ever permit a non-contentious definition, let me try to instead suggest a related, hopefully slightly less loaded dichotomy: Definition: A quine is payload-capable if...

alternatively, if you go with Martin's answer, the "Hello World" doesn't actually encode the output
@DownChristopher.... the meta says so
that meta contains the rules for quines
currently, one answer says that it must be "payload capable" and the other says it must encode itself
your answer doesn't really do either
I hate the meta right now
@Riker actually don't you have to specify if you are using the proper quine rules?
....... no.
tha'ts the whole point of them being the standard quine rules
7:33 PM
It is not a set of rules
It is asking what a proper quine is. I get your point
it lays down a set of rules for proper quines
the entire purpose of meta is to lay down rules.
I can't understand what you're saying, clean up grammar?
and FWIW it does say it's a rule
> Where there is genuine ambiguity, I would recommend lenience in enforcing this rule.
7:38 PM
@Riker actually
A quine is a non-empty computer program which takes no input and produces a copy of its own source code as its only output.
Straight from the question
That appears to set a rule
Does it not?
7:39 PM
but it doesn't say that any program that does that is allowed
This definition :Definition: A quine is payload-capable if it can be extended, in some systematic manner, to include a "payload" of additional code capable of performing arbitrary computation, in addition to printing its source code. A payload-capable quine, in its base form, must include all the code necessary to carry and execute a payload, even if no actual payload is present.

from the meta would not apply
yes it would
@Riker It kind does
I do not understand anymore
7:40 PM
I understand, but still disagree
@DownChristopher also fwiw: markdown, except for blockquotes and codeblocks doesn't work in multiline messages
it's sad but true
If I define something in my challenge that overrides the default
@JanDvorak correction: it doesn't say that all programs that do that are allowed
That's implied
I gtg eat food so I'm outta here
7:41 PM
This is a odd issue for me
Wait, is payload capable now the official definition of a proper quine?
My point is: the HQ9+ answer is inventive and thus worth keeping
@DownChristopher to override meta, you need to explicitly say what you are overwriting. You can have multiple definitions that all aggregate together for a complete definition
I still think 2i2i is a proper quine that isn't payload capable
@DJMcMayhem we have two top answers, but the HQ9+ doesn't follow either of them
7:42 PM
@DJMcMayhem I hope not
@NathanMerrill Who said that?
The meta?
@DownChristopher why assume otherwise?
@NathanMerrill Can I get a link?
I mean, the two defintions aren't in contradiction with each other
Should I take it this site is letter over spirit now?
I have no idea
7:45 PM
@DownChristopher lets go with Martin's answer to make sure that we are correct: "a true quine will in one way or another consist of data, and code". That definition does not conflict with "A quine is a non-empty computer program which takes no input and produces a copy of its own source code as its only output."
they can both be true of quines
so there's no reason to assume that they are overriding meta
One definition is what the program does, the other definition is how it does it.
I have no idea if it is valid. I am staying with invalid (my answer)
I don't think its valid, but I'm hesitant (because you can argue that "H" encodes "Hello World!"), so I haven't flagged/voted on it
The Hello World! in HQ9+, while clever, IMO doesn't match our community consensus definition of payload-capable quines.
7:48 PM
I vote to keep it
@AdmBorkBork But the question never said we needed that
yeah, but that answer isn't the top voted answer yet
@DownChristopher Yeah, it does. It uses the tag, which links directly to that Meta question about what is a proper quine.
@AdmBorkBork right, but "payload capable" isn't the top answer.
its close, so if some people vote, then it will be
If I just wrote a non-golfing programming language should I submit a Hello, World program for it?
7:54 PM
you should also post it in our meta
Q: What programming languages have been created by PPCG users?

PhiNotPiLanguage-creation has become a popular activity on PPCG. A decent portion of answers, especially code-golf answers, are written in languages invented by the community. These are also languages that might be unfamiliar to this site's wider viewing audience. What languages (esoteric, golfing, or...

I also submitted it to the time capsule thingy
@NathanMerrill This is true, but there's a very fine line between "payload-capable" and "separate data and code" which are the top two answers. And the HQ9+ submission fails against both.
@AdmBorkBork yeah I agree that the line is fine. I'm also not sure that "H" doesn't encode "Hello World", which means that it could be non-cheating. I still feel like it's a cheating quine, but I can see the other argument
I have no idea anymore
honestly, I'd post it on meta
7:57 PM
I was
Have been writing it for a while
ah ok :)
It took a bit
Hello taco
@NathanMerrill I'd argue that H doesn't encode Hello World!.
There's no possibility of data manipulation. It'd be like saying that print() "encodes" a newline.
H, according to the spec, prints Hello World!, the rest of ello World! are no-ops, which theoretically make it as valid a quine as H9Q+ could possibly hope to produce.
8:00 PM
so, you'd allow it in a HQ9+ variant that puts "Hello World!" on the top of the stack, and allows you to manipulate it?
(and auto prints the top of the stack)?
Still technically not Payload Capable, as there's no way to Mutate the stack.
right, but payload capable isn't technically needed
@MartinEnder Here they are bpaste.net/show/356500925f1a
Yeah, that'd probably be OK. Just like how Jelly has a whole dictionary of words that can be accessed and manipulated.
Without that, though, there's not really a separation between the data and the code
Q: Who is right in defining the meaning of a word meta or challange?

Down ChristopherThis is a crazy (crazy as in crazy weird) issue. If a challenge defines a quine as A quine is a non-empty computer program which takes no input and produces a copy of its own source code as its only output. And the meta says: A quine is payload-capable if it can be extended, in some sy...

8:06 PM
@DownChristopher oh, that isn't the route I would have taken. Both definitions apply
hi all
anyone want to try my challenge codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/112739/… before I am forced to put a MASSIVE bounty on it :) ?
So if i wait you put bounty then i answer the answer i wrote before
@DownChristopher I didn't fully follow but I think you are saying if you answer too early you miss the bounty? Is that right?
@Lembik Yes
It was a joke (sorta)
I think i understand the question
@DownChristopher great!
It really needs an answer, any answer :)
8:19 PM
@Lembik I am working on this and first is a hamming distance calculator
@Lembik distance of "101" and "011"?
My calculator gets 4
@KritixiLithos thank you for explanation of email structure
I think it is bwoke
Wait i fixed it
So hmm but hamming distance needs strings of the same length...
@DownChristopher The Hamming distance is the number of positions that are different. In your case it is 2
yes it needs strings of the same length
@DownChristopher if something in the question isn't clear please just ask
@Lembik So what is a hamming sequence?
Let P be a binary string of length n and T be a binary string of length 2n-1. We can compute the n Hamming distances between P and every n-length substring of T in order from left to right and put them into an array (or list).
That part is stopping me
take a look at the example
Let P = 101 and T = 01100. The sequence of Hamming distances you get from this pair is 2,2,1
2,2,1 is a sequence of Hamming distances
8:35 PM
I don't understand how you get the sequence
@DownChristopher I think you compare P to every substring of T with length equal to the length of P. The hamming distances would be {101, 011} = 2, {101, 110} = 2, {101, 100} = 1.
101 is different from 011 by 2 characters, from 110 by 2 characters, from 100 by 1 character
Thanks a lot! I will now be able to answer
thanks everyone!
Hmm still working on this but i have a issue with my code. lets see
8:43 PM
which language out of interest?
nice :)
I wonder if it's the least suitable language possible for this task :)
8:43 PM
there is always bash I suppose
But it has no way of setting a string equal to a substring
@DownChristopher so you are using new PJs?
that seems worthy of an SO question :)
@fəˈnɛtɪk kinda
@Lembik Question ban :(
8:44 PM
Read the hyperlink for the online version
@DownChristopher are you really banned?
@Lembik yep. Question banned
Bad questions
@fəˈnɛtɪk ha ha ha
very sorry to hear it
8:45 PM
You need to answer more
@Lembik Eh i got over it. I fixed my questions up
@JanDvorak I really can't
SO is mostly in languages i don't know
>_< I just submitted my app for review to Apple without uploading app
@Downgoat wow
Who tried to take the glory of staring first? glares around
I don't think they will see any issue with that...
8:52 PM
I can't seem to load Downgoat's profile picture (or quite a few people's actually)
Absolutely nothing wrong with his app
... or without
@TuxCopter :O you have iPhone?
please beta test gitgoat :3
@Downgoat Nope, I found this on /r/sirifail
We beta tested what you submitted to Apple for review
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

SparklePonyExtendable Quine Write a proper quine that can be extended in such a way that it can do more than just print itself. For example, I might write, Output my source code and print the Fibonacci sequence up to the nth number, in psuedocode. One could write anything after it and it would still quine,...

@Downgoat Your computer troubles are endlessly entertaining to me.
@Rainbolt stack.imgur is ded
or at least it's sporadic
@Rainbolt Ironically, I can see Downgoat's avatar, but not yours.
8:55 PM
@Rainbolt hm, I'm having the same issue, maybe imgur is down and it's just caching?
I guess I had the goat cached.
I can't see Rainbolts, downgoats, or dennis
I can see everyone
I can't see rainbolt but I can see everyone else
Same for images in PPCG answers. i.stack.imgur is refusing connections.
8:57 PM
Or tuxcopters is not visible
Sooo. I've been hearing about vGPU (sharing Intel GPUs between KVM host+guests) in recent linux. Is there an actual guide on that? I can only find vague hypetrains and whitepapers. Has anyone here actually done it?
@DJMcMayhem gotham is epic styling
Huh? The TV show?
the vim theme you linked me
Oh wait, duh, the colorscheme
8:59 PM
yeah lol

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