@Mego uhm, why would I want to redirect it to my local IP?

I mean if I did sure, but that's not what I want at all ;)

@Mego they all have their proper domain names, ssl certificates, etc. I'm trying to replicate the set up, and not just locally but properly ;)

@Mego The goal is to prove that I can do this, if Dennis is hit by a bus ;)

So why python is so popular for golfing languages?

O_O So Xcode has error dialogs that will let you fix certain code bugs (e.g. turns applicable let -> var), apparently it does this fix by a find/replace, so if you have "let" in the middle of string or something it'll replace that instead

@Downgoat lol

I'm spoiled by resharper

@Mego do other full featured languages feel like pulling teeth?

Python is also surprisingly not verbose much like other full featured languages, where Lua uses function thing() end Python only asks for def thing(){}, that and things like Lambdas.

Lua kind of does.

function() end is too much boilerplate for an anonymous function :(

I dunno. sounds very opinion-based to me ;) but no matter...

@AndrewSavinykh There's virtually no learning curve, it has a great documentation, there's a ton of packages you can import that will do pretty much everything you can think of, and it supports arbitrary-precision integers natively.

yeah, arbitrary percision integers (and complex) are nice

I'm sure there are better choices in terms of, e.g., speed, but if you need something that just works, Python is a quick and easy way to get things done.

@Dennis and cross platform too

That too. You have to try pretty hard to produce non-portable Python code.

With Python 3, anyway.

I personally do not like the indentations thing and a lot of ambiguity when the same things work differently for everything. For example this stackoverflow.com/a/6167246/284111

my first ever Python programs were written in an IRC bot (sort of like TIO but over IRC)

I think that it's a bit insane that the same thing works for different types but does different things for those types

and it only supported oneliners

so I had to write them as exec("if foo:\n bar\nelse:\n baz")

doesn't really give a good first impression

@AndrewSavinykh That's true for most interpreted languages though.

@AndrewSavinykh I'll try to come up with an auto-setup script for the arena before the end of the month. I'll need that anyway to create additional arenas. I rarely leave the house, so the chance I get hit by a bus before February (when work resumes) are fairly slim. ;)

@Dennis if by interpreted languages you mean languages that are intended for scripting, than you would be right. Powershell has its ugly sides, but at least it strongly typed because .net is strongly typed. So there is much less ambifuity

@Dennis Oh, I wish you to be never hit by a bus!

Me too. :)

The bus drivers here are crazy though, so I wouldn't bet on it.

@Dennis one thing that I was wandering when setting this up was how do you test all of this. You have things when a cgi script calls another shell script via SSH then it calls another script which in turn calls another script. And if there are any errors in the process they are not logged anywhere, so how would you know what failed.

But fortunately your code "just works"

So it has not been a problem, but it could be in future, potentially

The backend, which SSHs into the arena, will log all STDERR output.

In /var/log/httpd/error_log if memory serves.

@Dennis they are aren't they?

@Dennis uhm, is this apache feature? how is this configured?

Absolutely bonkers. They get paid per round, not per hour, so they try to cram as many rounds in a day as they can.

@AndrewSavinykh It's a syslog thing and most distros will set it up by default. Look for /var/log/apache2/error.log on Ubuntu.

Dynamic typing makes it easier to implement data structures for languages.

I'll have a look. I'm not convinced that cgi stderr is automatically logged there. It sound mod specific, in this case cgid sepcific

but thank you

At least Ubuntu's Apache and Fedora's httpd set it up by default.

@Pavel make them (data structures) more fragile though

On 14.04 Server and 24 Cloud, anyway.

if they are dynamically typed

that was fun weekend setting tio up. Never touched fedora before, never touched selinux before, and is not big expert on shell scripting either.

but you've done a good job scripting it in a way it does not break upon first touch ;)

Well, the language's data structure doesn't have to be dynamically typed. You can always use the type() function to check.

@Pavel yeah, was not clear if you talk about data structures implemented by a language or those implemented with the language. I assumed the latter

In python, creating a stack is really simple: stack=[] and it doesn't matter what you put in there. Whenever you try to add something, you can always check if type(stack.pop())=='int'

I'm sure in java it's something like new Stack(), no?

new java.util.ArrayList<Object>()

anyway, I started a bit pointless discussion I'm guessing Everyone has their preferences and it's a fact that Python is pretty popular

And then you have to deal with the fact that you can't have ints in there, they have to be Integers.

I'm writing Sushi in java though, it's a bit harder, and BigDecimal is a pain to deal with, but I know Java well enough that for me it's the best option.

@Pavel an interesting excessive would be to imagine from time to time what the implementation would be if another language would have been used

many of scripting languages implemented in pyton - you cannot implement them otherwise becuase they use eval

that you can only run in python

but to me asking from a person to learn a golfing language and also learn python is a bit much to ask )

Java has javac, which you can kind-of use like eval

@Pavel .net has no such nonsense ;)

but java eval won't help you much if your language spec says that the command does python eval

python docs are good, that's true, but as with everything there are small things ;)

For example

To find out what ellipsis really does

docs.python.org/3/library/…

you need to hit stackoverflow ;)

@Dennis, what's the story with tryitonline.net vs tio.run?

Which one are you going to use going forward? Or are you going to keep both?

I mean the domain names, not the implementation

I'm going to keep both. tio.run for the web app, i.e., the actual interpreter, and tryitonline.net for everything else.

I mainly bought the former so the permalinks would look better. Having TIO in the domain name is also nice, since that's what most people (myself included) are calling the service.

@Dennis sorry what do you mean by interpreters? I thought that language implementations were run in "arena"?

I mean the part of the frontend where you type in the code.

right

I realize how interpreter was confusing in that context. There are at least four different things you could call that. :P

@AndrewSavinykh So, what does the ellipsis object do?

Anyway, tryitonline.net will host a bit more than a landing page in the future, including some dev tools so people get some control over "their" interpreter.

@Pavel well, it's just a type with a single instance. You can do whatever you like with it. NumPy uses it for multi-dimentional arrays slicing

so instead of a[0,:,:,0] you write [0,...,0]

@Dennis What I'd like to see is ability to have automated test suites. Basically I pull a language, then I run the list of programs for the language with pre-specified inputs and compare with pre-specified outputs. this way I can see I have not broken the language

however maybe it's and overkill for TIO

every developer can do this in their own repo if they want

tbh

Yeah, I'd rather have language authors set these things up themselves. I don't know the first thing about 75% of the languages on TIO, so setting up test suites myself would be pretty hard.

@Dennis that's not what I meant

I meant an ability to set the suite

but even that may be an overkill

Oh. That would require the language authors to play along though.

I think v2 has that already

I just want the userscript to work with Nexus.

I actually clicked around to see what's different.

It seems promising, but like many things I just like what I know works.

I'm generally all for the indev/beta build, but the thing is, v2 is just worse than nexus.

So, I just discovered TIO command mode, does anyone know what you can do with it?

@Pavel That's because v2 is older. I realized there was just too much stuff to figure out before I could get anywhere near stability, so I made Nexus correcting some of the mistakes I made when designing v2. Once Nexus is finished, I'll go back to developing v2, which will include incorporating the improvements from Nexus.

So, what does command mode do?

@Pavel Not much at this point. Some button are pretty far apart though and can take time to click with the mouse. Pressing Esc, S, G is a fast way to copy a full-blown PPCG answer made of your code into your clipboard.

Oh, so it's hotkeys?

room topic changed to talk.tryitonline.net: For general discussion and feature requests regarding tryitonline.net. (no tags)

@Pavel Basically.

Wait, wasn't that always the room topic?

Using traditional key combos is a huge PITA because all browsers and OS's have their own, so trying to use them for your website is pretty much hit'n'miss. Using a command mode circumvents that issue.

@Pavel Sort of. I changed the link's protocol to HTTPS.

If you do esc->r, the icon keeps spinning even when the program finishes executing.

And when you switch tabs and back again, it just disappears?

(MS Edge)

Huh, no repro on Chrome.

The button behaves differently on IE and Edge, I remember you were complaining about it.

The whole thing rotates instead of just the gear part.

Yeah, that's because IE/Edge support for SVGs and CSS animations is terrible.

This is probably the same thing.

Both sorta work separately, but once you try to combine them...

Can't repro the disappearing wheel, but switching tabs stops the animation for me. What kind of weirdness is this?

Pretty much, yeah.

I would use chrome, but this is a school computer.

I don't understand why Microsoft just won't admit that they can't make a decent browser and partner up with someone else. There's nothing to gain from making something that is given away for free, and everything to lose from shipping an OS that doesn't have a decent browser by default.

I mean, Edge is a pretty big improvement over IE, but they still have a long way to go to catch up with the rest.

They're not trying to push Edge by itself, they're trying to use Edge to push Windows 10.

Nobody they could potentially partner with would want to make a browser exclusive to Win 10.

But you don't push an OS with a below-average browser. Quite the opposite.

Well, Edge does have features exclusive to it.

If they fix the awful HTML5 support and allow more extensions, it could actually be pretty good.

@Dennis yeah, fair enough, scratch that

@Pavel They should get the basics right before that. Just take this bug: Both pressing Ctrl + Enter and Esc, R simulate a click on the run button. Simulating that click works just fine, yet using the latter method magically prevents removing the running class from stopping the animation.

It even works in IE...

@Pavel what are top 3 worse things?

That's... weird.

Well, Ctrl + Enter doesn't change the icon.

Change how?

It makes it spin for me on Edge.

Esc, R changes the icon to an R

Oh, that.

@Pavel I tried to use Edge once I installed Win 10 but it would hang and crash regularly so I gave up

I'd completely understand if it kept the icon from animating because of that, but 'm clueless how it could have an effect seconds after that.

Yet setting a timeout to click on the icon a few ms after exiting command mode fixes the issue. It shouldn't, but it does.

o_o

It makes absolutely no sense.

No, you're right, MS should just kill Edge

With fire

I'd like edge if it weren't easier and more practical just to use Firefox.

That's true for everything where there are two competing products.

Precisely. Edge would be an OK browser a decade ago, but there are much better alternatives at this point.

That said, I do not like Firefox.

"I'd like iPhone if it weren't easier and more practical to just use Android"

That might not have been the best example.

Firefox may be good internally, but it is just ugly.

Edge I find far too limiting for what I want to do with it, and that combined with Microsoft™ unnecessary program loading times, it's just not worth it.

Also, I Like my ugly.

I use chrome on my main

The rendering of the Footer text in the above image is just awful.

I feel ugly with Chrome's default font.

Well, the run icon weirdness in Edge should be fixed.

I just opened a new edge window, it loaded my homepage in under a second.

@ATaco But the font is embedded in the web page. ._.

In this case, yes.

Not in all cases.

And this thing has a 1.4 ghz intel celeron

When no font or default is specified, sadness is applied.

Just go to chrome://settings/fonts and pick a default you like.

But I am both Lazy and Stubbern.

...

Can't really argue with that, can you.

You're also misspelling stubborn. :P

I wish I could say English isn't my first language.

I learned to speak Russian when I was 3 and English when I was 4

So I can say English isn't my first language.

This, this I like.

My eyes.

Not a fan of Fixed-width?

Why would you use courier new as a default font?

WHY?

For web pages? No, not really. At least pick a good one.

The joke was that it's an option

Oh. Well, there's no reason for it to not be an option, I suppose.

Options are nice.

Most people would cringe when they see how I set up my computer. They also wouldn't be able to get anything done.

Options aren't always nice.

What did you do?

As long as it doesn't come with a hot dog theme, it's fine.

I wonder if posting this in the Super User chat will get me banned?

Also, doesn't it just read which fonts are installed? Why would you make the system more complicated by filtering certain ones out?

I'm not sure I get your point.

@Pavel well my son learned english quite a years after he learned russian, yet his first language is english. I'm suspecting it might be the same with you, if you've lived your whole life in english speaking environment, you ruissan is probably not as good - so would not qualify as "first language"

You keep using the word 'first'. I am not sure you know what it means.

@Pavel lol

that's a technicality

don't let it distract you from the meaning

I registered a domain with a spelling error. English is not my first language. Definitely. And for two years too - bummer ;)

Those things happen. See HTTP referer.

Wait. It just occurred to me: why would tio use https instead of http?

There's not any kind of secure information you need to transfer.

There's no accounts or anything like that

There's just extra time for encryption

@Pavel you just wait

@Pavel and people say that slowdown is basically negligible

I want to know that the TIO I'm looking at is actually TIO.

What else would it be?

People kept asking for HTTPS and I implemented it. Once there are user accounts, it will actually be a necessity.

if you google ssl performance or https performance everybody basically agrees that it's beneficial with no downside for almost every scenario

I'm sure someone can come up with a contrived example when it would NOT be beneficial, but we are talking practical here

A Man in the Middle attack can be more malicious than simply taking your passwords. it can also, theoretically, display webpage elements against your will.

there is no PM in stack exchange chat, is there?

there is a VM equivalent, though (you can make a gallery room, where only specific people can post)