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8:21 AM
Not sure if I fully understood those badges, but is there a possibility that I get Populist and Reversal on this question? Or am I totally wrong?
9:05 AM
The accepted answer has to get to at least 10, and your answer to at least 20, but it's certainly possible you could get both yes
6 hours later…
3:17 PM
Q: When should riddles be considered duplicates?

rand al'thorMany questions here on PSE are in the form of a straightforward riddle. I'm not talking about more complex puzzles which have a riddle element as well as many other parts to them, but just about puzzles which consist of a single riddle, with a single solution, and nothing else. When should two s...

@GarethMcCaughan Hence my latest meta question ^
we're going to accuse you of abusing your dupehammer powers anyway. Muahahaaa..
Anyway. I don't think you can just look at the answer to conclude that two riddles which resolve to the same thing are of necessity duplicate, or even probably duplicate; I'd say they have to follow a very similar path to get you to that answer, with similar/identical hintings
At the same time, I see Rand's point. You can only describe the same object in so many different ways.
If the descriptions are close or matching, then sure. It's a judgement call imo. I know that's not as clear cut as "the answer is the same, so dupe", but that's why we give the hammer to the experienced people.
3:36 PM
I have said hammer, but I don't know if I'd be using it in this case.
Well. I posted on the Meta. TL;DR: we're solving the puzzle and not the answer; if the puzzles are substantially unique, then they're not duplicates.
Agreed with Rubio: having the same answer on two riddles doesn't mean that the puzzle itself is a duplicate
Obviously if 80% of the hinting is the same in different words/rhymes/order/whatever but fundamentally the same riddle, they're probably duplicate. But if two riddles take different approaches to get you to the same answer, there's a good likelihood that (at least) one of them put conscious thought into providing a novel approach to setting their riddle; negating their effort because it lands at the same answer would be pretty craptacular.
So, solution to D's CCCC is LIPOGRAM (I admit I actually got this almost instantly but didn't want to say as I was too busy to post a followup at that point; sorry).
@Randal'Thor @Rubio @IAmInPLS: I concur with @Rubio and @IAmInPLS contra @Randal'Thor. Hinting must match.
@GarethMcCaughan Huh. Never even heard that word before. Nice.
3:42 PM
But now I must construct my own C.C.C.C. again. Alas.
so I have a question
@GarethMcCaughan Wordplay description?
Last 3 words.
isn't that the definition?
oops, sorry
3:43 PM
if I want to clue a particular thing that itself has two meanings - say, "Reading" which is both a verb and a place - is there a way to clue both in a cryptic?
@Rubio Your post makes some good points, but it reads as more a refutation of my answer than an actual answer of its own.
@dcfyj POGR [without U] in MAIL backwards
Ok, I got the "u" removal right away, but for whatever reason I couldn't see out of what word lol
I've got to run, but maybe you could edit your answer to provide your own suggestion as to when riddles should count as duplicates (not just when they shouldn't), or post it as a comment instead?
@Randal'Thor Yeah you're right - I'll add a blurb. I meant to say what I said in here actually - if the riddle presentation is largely duplicative, then mark away. If not, not.
3:47 PM
@Rubio What do you reckon on the examples I linked to in the question? Should all those "nothing"/"coffin" dupes really be dupes? What about the "iron" ones?
@Rubio Wordplay is agnostic as to which, so just what do you want to do with both that that won't do for?
@Rubio You may not have heard the word, but you have probably experienced it.
@GentlePurpleRain Haha, I forgot about that one (The "Ron" one)
@Rubio You can do a "double definition" clue, which simply contains 2 definitions: one for each meaning of the word.
@GentlePurpleRain @Rubio A place for studying (7)
3:49 PM
Response overload ;)
What do you say about holding clue writing contests in chat (say, a separate chatroom)?
@Randal'Thor Part of my first paragraph was my actual thinking on what should constitute a dup. I expanded on it, making my thoughts on what IS (vs. just what ISN'T) a dup.
@Ankoganit How does "for" fit the clue? "A place", and "studying" are the 2 defs
@GentlePurpleRain Just a linker?
I could be wrong, but I don't think that kind of linker is allowed... @Gareth?
3:52 PM
and I didn't really have a chance to look at the examples, but I suspect it's like the old commentary about pornography: i may not be able to exactly define what a duplicate is, but I know one when I see it ;)
I think "for" is OK as boundary twixt wordplay and df.
@GentlePurpleRain Yeah I've experienced it. I know there's books written that way. I just never heard a word for it :)
@GarethMcCaughan This is double def though
@Sid yah
3:53 PM
@dcfyj But in a DD, "wordplay" is df #2.
@Ankoganit Also, I think "a place" might be a little to vague. It could literally define millions of things.
@GentlePurpleRain A place in England?
I assume the idea is LIBRARY but
@Sid The especially impressive thing about that is that it's translated from the French, while maintaining the same restrictions.
3:54 PM
@GarethMcCaughan True I suppose
wow that got mangled
(@GPR and @Rubio may want to look at all I've said today, btw. What do you (not) find?)
11 mins ago, by Rubio
if I want to clue a particular thing that itself has two meanings - say, "Reading" which is both a verb and a place - is there a way to clue both in a cryptic?
it's actually growing tiring
@GarethMcCaughan Nice. You have too much time on your hands.
3:56 PM
It is odd that it wasn't caught by any but I...
@GentlePurpleRain Yeah sorry my comment got mangled. I was trying to say I think the vagueness might just take you to LIBRARY instead
I thought it was obvious
but it looks as if it wasn't
Not at all.
Chat makes some normally out-of-place constructions get overlooked.
I wasn't even sure what you were talking about after you mentioned it.
3:58 PM
I was hoping to do my C.C.C.C. with that constraint but I think I will drop it first -- it truly is tiring.
I should have suspected that Gareth using abbreviations like df. in chat meant he was up to something. He's usually more verbose.
I'm sorry if I usually say too much.
@GarethMcCaughan I thought you'd already dropped it here (last letter). Or was that just a mistake?
2 mins ago, by Gareth McCaughan
It is odd that it wasn't caught by any but me...
oops, 'twas a cockup
will fix
A: French vs Italian resistance

Jhon SmithTotal number and diveded and multiplied

What's this answer?
3:59 PM
damn, can't fix now -- too long post facto
obvious fix is to switch last word to "I"
Just have GPR fix it :P
ah, that works. If GPR is willing, thanks!
@Sid I'm not sure that qualifies as an answer
@Sid Already flagged.
I think this came before you started paying attention to this too, but meh :)
4:01 PM
@GarethMcCaughan Done
@Rubio I dunno if that's going to be good enough. I wanted to get a nice community consensus which I could act on.
@Rubio what? It fits my constraint too, no? Did I slip up?
@Gareth I can fix that one too, if you tell me what to change.
"that that won't do for". A bit ugly; sorry.
4:04 PM
@GarethMcCaughan Let's just say that you haven't used "the" so far...
@Sid Works for me :)
(OK, dropping the lipogrammetry now; there are things I can't find any non-painful way to say)
Fixed the "enough" one for you.
Much the best thing on that "French vs Italian resistance" question is someone's remark that of course M Oehm would be the one to solve it. I remark that this too involves omission of the letter E.
Buahahaa. (And yeah that was my comment)
4:07 PM
@Gareth It is hard not only to find words, but to avoid making mistakes. When I made my "Hearken now" puzzle, I had to use a computer to make sure I wasn't adding letters I wasn't supposed to.
Well, yes. I made two in the fairly brief discussion above.
(I haven't forgotten that I owe the assembled company another CCCC.)
I just recently learned about Charcoal HQ. They're running quite a sophisticated bot that scans every new post/comment/edit on the entire StackExchange network and checks for a variety of indicators that might mean it is spam. If it thinks it's found spam, it posts in that chat room, and a whole bunch of people flag it almost immediately.
@GentlePurpleRain Not comments.
And not edits either, except in the sense that they can make posts into spam.
@Randal'Thor You're right about the comments; my mistake.
But from charcoal-se.org: "...every new post, on every SE site, plus every edit and other update..."
@GentlePurpleRain Oh OK.
I guess they'd have to monitor edits (or newly edited posts) in order to catch things like self-vandalism.
4:23 PM
@IAmInPLS- We posted a question almost at a same time! :D
@Randal'Thor ok I think I tightened up a little more and made my thoughts more clear. also shifted part of my answer that was a reaction to "close on dup answer", to be a comment on that answer.
@Rubio Looks reasonable. Ideally I'd like something more objective than "some reasonably high threshold percentage of the hinting", but I realise that might be an unfeasible dream.
38 mins ago, by Rubio
and I didn't really have a chance to look at the examples, but I suspect it's like the old commentary about pornography: i may not be able to exactly define what a duplicate is, but I know one when I see it ;)
I think there are some cases where trying to codify exactly what a thing is, ends up being a Bad Thing™ by tempting Rules Nazis to skirt the definition
4:44 PM
CCCC: Father, studying the divine but ignoring the transcendental is a disorder (9)
Oooh, ok seems tricky
"disorder" -> anagram?
comment-pin that, someone
Need a mod
4:48 PM
Flag the comment :P
@LukasRotter I don't think that would go over well lol
@BeastlyGerbil At your service.
@Randal'Thor you just want to show off your mod abilities :P
@BeastlyGerbil I'm a little distracted by solving @Techidiot's movie riddle and trying to work IRL.
4:54 PM
Oh yeah saw your answer (+1). I'd only noticed 'fin' :P
@Randal'Thor- I think you won't be for long :)
@Randal'Thor About your comment on my puzzle: it is not tagged anagram for a reason, it is that there is no anagram!
@Techidiot I think I've got the final answer, but still haven't worked out that second line. The capital letters in the last line don't seem to be significant (they're all at the beginnings of words, and those letters aren't in the final solution).
@IAmInPLS Damn, I thought I was onto something with north/thorn.
@Randal'Thor- Try a little more. I can see you approaching that GOLD BADGE very soon :)
@Techidiot Do we need to transform SWEGMC into ALDEST, or find ALDEST in some completely different way?
5:04 PM
@Randal'Thor I should keep mum on this :-|
Though I would say, stick to the tags. No decryption's required.
Oh, huh, good point.
Walt is leading me up blind alleys in the M&TV chatroom :-P
in The Screening Room, 8 mins ago, by Walt
Seems that SWEGMC=ALDEST somehow, but I'm bad with codes :/
Oh, wait, I think I got it!
There, I've reached my final destination.
Pun intended.
@Techidiot Just one issue: why "triad" and "septuplet"? I can't see how 3 or 7 are important to the solution.
@Randal'Thor - Triad were the first three letters. "FIN" Next 7 on the bottom "NALDEST"
Wanted to keep it a bit confusing there. Though good one! :)
Big green tick coming soon!
@Techidiot OK ... I suppose that makes sense?
It just confused me a bit because both "triad" and "septuplet", appearing in the second line, seems to be relevant to the ALDEST bit.
5:13 PM
Well, needed to keep it enigmatic. Hence that.
Well done Rand
Oops. I can't add spaces
between I and I
@BeastlyGerbil Thanks :-D
Aaah I see now.
So, that was it! If you want you can add the rectangle in your answer @Randal'Thor
5:16 PM
Damn chat formatting.
AK resurrected...
Well, I do have a Necromancer badge ...
And now @LukasRotter is joining in too!
The AK disease?
So, triads are "FIN" and last septuplets are "NALDEST"
5:19 PM
Soon we'll all just be mindless, wandering, chat message deleting zombies going around saying 'Remooooovvvved'... :P
The disease is spreading. We have to kill everyone who is infected to save humanity and prevent further spread.
I knew this day would come.
Don't get bitten.
@Techidiot Added a rectangle to my answer.
5:24 PM
@Randal'Thor- Looks better :)
We now have to ask every chat-newbie the three TWD questions (slightly modified): "How many comments have you posted?", "How many comments have you removed?", "Why?".
@LukasRotter That third one could be a problem.
Does @Levieux ever come in here?
I really like this puzzle. There are some things which are jumping out at me straight away, but I can't see how to put them all together.
no geography tag..
5:43 PM
Posted an answer. I'm very definitely onto something, but it's still a work in progress.
I'm also looking at it (haven't looked at your answer) and reckon I've got maybe 50-70% of what's going on
Can I just say, this is a fantastic puzzle. Even though I haven't finished solving it yet, I love the multi-layeredness of it, the way different clues cue and confirm each other, and I think you've pitched the difficulty just right. — rand al'thor 14 secs ago
... namely, exactly the same as you've got, it turns out
Remind me of this when the quarterly awards come up.
(I'll leave you to it, since apparently we're working at about the same speed and you've taken the trouble to write it up)
PA (father), THEOLOGY (studying the divine), -E (ignoring the transcendental) -> PATHOLOGY (def)
I got that one minute into my shower. figures. :)
@Rubio Spot on!
I'm rather pleased with the surface reading of that one.
Oh wow, this is fun.
@Rubio Good job
IIXY - Dn -> MIKE / MIKE / XRAY - Denmark
the heck
That was a tough one to reconstruct.
5:56 PM
Do all of these work as airports?
Oh yes.
Everything is coming together very neatly.
That's actually how I found this one: hunting for airports in Sweden with an X in their IATA code.
MMX is Malmo apparently.
what site are you using to check the codes?
I've had some stuff apparently fail to match
Google and Wikipedia.
I'm not finding any IHV airport, but that probably just means I've filled in some letters wrong.
@GarethMcCaughan Yeah the divine and transcendental was a nice bit of work
Yep, it's actually IEV - I just guessed wrong when completing HO.
6:07 PM
I've read things not in Deusovi's guide that lead me to understand the following is legal.
CCCC: Following directions in middle of Middle, I was trapped between penniless fraction and strange shortened secretary's problem. (6,6)
As an example, I had your Bravo Hotel Xray match coming up Birmingham, UK
DSTGO - Uk -> INDIA / SIERRA / TANGO - Ukraine
Another tough one to fill in.
@Sconibulus Yes, so Kg could be United Kingdom, but that's an awful lot of new letters.
it match IS, for Isreal for you
TGOHOTE - Id ... wow, an entire word is missing on the left there.
6:12 PM
And I'm pretty sure that I should be either i or l; I left a comment.
"@randal'thor: you're right, I'll edit that. – Levieux"
@Rubio Yep, saw it.
@Randal'Thor TANGO / HOTEL - Finland
it's definitely finland because the next one is helsinki airport
@durron597 No, it was ALFA / TANGO / HOTEL. See latest edit :-)
oy lol
that's funny because there's an airport THO in iceland that would make a lot of sense
6:18 PM
Just the United Kingdom part, I guess...
But is that considered a country?
Okay, entering this discussion sideways, but I think the first Denmark is ALFA ROMEO NOVEMBER, which yields Arlanda airport in Stockholm
Finished (the airports and countries).
@MOehm Already done :-)
Now we just need to work out what those numbers on the left mean.
And the 2016 part..
@Randal'Thor Okay, I'm slow, as always. :)
Make up something that leads to an airport in sweden..
6:22 PM
@Randal'Thor DELTA UNIFORM BRAVO for the first one, you need a T for United Kingdom
of course sweden has more than 60 airports with an IATA code
@Sconibulus Huh, yes, that would make more sense. A tiny airport in Guyana would be a bit of an outlier in this puzzle :-)
it's possible the A.B number tells which airport
could the numbers be a unit of distance?
no, never mind
Yah doesn't seem like it. Also not related to number of terminals / runways / airlines served.
Running out of things to try :)
6:39 PM
OK, so now we need an airport in Sweden and possibly "Ireland" on the right to complete the loop.
Should it be a loop?
I dunno, but what other clue do we have for the country at the end?
We don't know what the numbers are for yet
They're all between 0 and 8.
I'm thinking it must be something to do with letters.
Since, well, everything else is.
Out of topic- Was there any bounty on the Rube Wordberg problem?
I mean, earlier..
6:44 PM
the country cued the next letters, maybe the numbers cue the next country somehow? Of course, then we'd still not know what numbers went with the message, unless there's a pattern made out of flight paths or something
Oh... I know what the last country is...
Ukraine, it's related to Eurovision
@Sid Aww, you'll spoil @Alconja's votes-to-views ratio.
which means the airport should probably be Stockholm
Man .... that votes:views ratio is pretty insane isn't it :)
@Sconibulus Oh good lord.
Thanks though.
Shall I add that to my answer, or do you want to post your own?
Q: The Rube Wordberg Machine

AlconjaGah! I used to be the brilliant one at Verba Retorta University, but ever since that damned Professor Wordberg showed up, there's been nothing but trouble. And it's all his confounded machine's fault! He's a fraud – he has to be – I just needed enough evidence to prove it. So, last night, I... L...

6:57 PM
Wait Rube Wordberg only got 837 views!??
I can post a bit, but we still don't have any idea what the numbers are
It was said that all numbers are from 0 to 8, but the first numbers are from 0 to 5 and the numbers after the dot are all even digits. So the numbers go from 0.6 to 5.8 in steps of 0.2.
they're not scores are they?
they don't match with either the total score, or the margin of victory
they might match with something else, but it isn't broken down on wikipedia :)
The official ESC site isn't great for data mining either.
7:42 PM
@GarethMcCaughan Yep! I actually wrote that one for an English paper - the assignment was "3 pages, any topic, never use the letter A".
As for Gareth's clue, I'm thinking "ignoring the transcendental" means "remove the letter E".
I think it got solved
Oh, did it?
No, don't think it did.
It did, the answer was PATHOLOGY
2 hours ago, by Rubio
PA (father), THEOLOGY (studying the divine), -E (ignoring the transcendental) -> PATHOLOGY (def)
Rubio got it as I recall
7:48 PM
Ah, nice.
oh, I hadn't seen that Rubio had posted a new one
Well, that one looks complicated.
I hadn't noticed that Rubio's had 2 words
Still, fantastic clue, @GarethMcCaughan! The surface reading was great.
Ah Rubios posted a new one...
8:03 PM
Yeah, and it's a long one.
two words as well
By the time I finish reading this, I will not only have fallen asleep, I will also have grown a beard, mustache and hair so long I won't be able to see the screen... — Beastly Gerbil 2 mins ago
That was for this
@BeastlyGerbil: Spacetime is a word. You didn't need to "correct" that one. (The rest of your edit was good though.)
Oh @Deusovi it came up as incorrect with spell check, so I assumed it was incorrect...
2 hours later…
10:15 PM
Why is the Google Doodle guy picking his nose?
@Randal'Thor Remember this?
Aug 30 at 1:34, by Rand al'Thor
I did a quick double take when I saw that 211k. "Is Mithrandir secretly Jon Skeet?"
Well, now your thingy on Literature says One million. O_O
@Mithrandir Not sure what you mean because nothing special appears for me, but IIRC you live in India and therefore it's the 7th of December, so I assume you see this? If so, I think it's representing him touching his chin (thinking motion).
Not in India. But yeah, it's 12:20 now.
And yeah, I know, but it's more fun thinking of it as him picking his nose.

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