English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

18:00

Well, Scandinavians much less so than Dutchmen.

terdon

@Cerberus Only to you.

Cerberus

No!

Mitch

@NVZ I know. polls are dumb

terdon

I've heard strong Dutch accents, I'll grant you that. But most Dutch people I've met (who are, of course, those who've spent some years abroad) tend to have near neutral accents.

Mitch

@terdon I can't say 'better'. more articulately, yes.

@terdon As opposed to native English speakers, who nearly always speak with a foreign accent.

rimshot

terdon

18:02

pffft

:P

Mitch

haha...sociolinguistic joke!

because... ha ha... the English.. ha ha ha...

catching breath

NVZ

Looks like I've no idea what you guys are talking about, and it's really weird, and I feel invisible, and lacking the right ideas to change the subject, and clearly having a headache, and not feeling so good about staying up late tonight, and if you've read this far, I'm sorry there's no point in continuing further, but oh, wait, you're a rebel, I like you!

user233358

man at 1 rep I feel worthless.

user233358

;)

Mitch

@NVZ that was something.

terdon

18:04

@NVZ By now, you must have figured out that conversations in this room very rarely make any kind of bacon. Or sense.

Mitch

Also, we don't have any idea what we're talking about either, so you're in good company

Cerberus

@NVZ What's unbelievable?

terdon

And, after all, what's life sans bacon?

Mitch

sad thought

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon like fonts sans serif. somehow.

Mitch

18:05

So @NVZ, 1st, do you consider your country in the middles east?

NVZ

@Mitch I'm in India.

MetaEd

Definitely east of middle.

Mitch

2nd whatever that answer, you're closer than us, so I'll ask, what does everybody think is the worst in the middle east... um... forget Israel for the moment.

@NVZ Oh. oops.

That's not ME at all.

NVZ

India is supposed to be called a country of countries.. Or a continent within Asia.

Mitch

It's its own thing

Matt E. Эллен

18:06

"the subcontinent"

user233358

I only enjoy chat when we go off topic, like now.

Mitch

well anyway, what do you think other people think, in India, of the countries in the ME? Does it follow that list? (also for the sake of argument, drop Pakistan)

NVZ

@Arrowfar We go on-topic only on a month of Sundays, and this definitely isn't one.

Mitch

Please!

user233358

@NVZ oh good

NVZ

18:09

@Mitch About that poll result, I agree India has more positive influence on the world, than negative. But the negative shown in that poll is too damn high.

terdon

@MattE.Эллен I don't know what's worse. That joke or the fact that I quite literally laughed out loud at it.

Mitch

@NVZ Oh. The question was a bout 'influence'? I thought it was just an inchoate 'thumbs up thumbs down kind of thing.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon :D probably the joke.

Cerberus

@NVZ It's the most neutral country in the world to me.

India is impossible to like or dislike.

terdon

@NVZ It's not supposed to be real. It reflects people's opinion and that rarely, if ever, correlates with fact.

That what I understand by the word "view" anyway.

Cerberus

18:12

Naturally.

NVZ

Alright. Good chat. Tata

user233358

See ya

Johan Larsson

18:29

@Arrowfar nice avatar, did you make it?

user233358

@JohanLarsson Hej Johan. No I was searching for "archery pictogram" on Google and found that :-)

Johan Larsson

sweet match

user233358

It is from olymics.

user233358

thanks.

user233358

19:08

@Mitch Do you think websites like these are bad for learning/teaching grammar? Because someone somewhere told me so.

user233358

:/

user227867

@Arrowfar To learn grammar, read a real book.

user233358

@JasperLoy hey, I missed your youtube channel I guess. It is deleted now, I was just reading the transcript :)

user233358

@JasperLoy yeah I know. I have CGEL in the fake form. I stole the fake version from the internet.

user233358

=)

user227867

19:12

@Tonepoet It is very strange that although ODE gives only partial pronunciation, NOAD gives full pronunciation. The reason given for partial pronunciation is that native speakers should know how to pronounce simple words. Does that mean Americans are not native speakers? I think OUP is just trying to cover its tracks after making a mistake.

user227867

@Arrowfar It's too big for me. I just get the condensed version at 300 pages. A Student's Introduction to English Grammar by the same authors.

user233358

Nice.

user227867

The condensed version is affordable. You should buy a copy.

user227867

It has blue ink in it, very nice.

user233358

yeah I should be, since I am no shoes poor :)

user233358

19:17

I have been improving my English mainly by reading. Grammar is kind of boring but still I find some concepts useful like backshifting, tenses etc.

Tonepoet

@Arrowfar One of the nice thing about 18th, 19th and very early 20th century books is that they're copyright expired so you can find them freely online, and they've been critically reviewed.

user233358

I see. That's good advice.

user233358

And hello Tonepoet

Tonepoet

Hi Arrowfar.

MetaEd

@Tonepoet I like the literary quality of many of the older books too.

Tonepoet

19:30

I've been compiling a reading list for myself, so right now the books I'm considering reading are An Improved English Grammar by Noah Webster; the Rudiments of English Grammar by Joseph Priestly; A Short Introduction to English Grammar by Robert Lowth; The King's English by the Fowler brothers and The Chicago Manual of Style 7th edition. The 7th edition specifically because I think it was the last published before 1922, which is the effective cutoff-date for copyright expiration.

MetaEd

There's a huge legacy of free books. Science, religion, engineering, philosophy, poetry, ...

Tonepoet

@MetaEd Oh yeah, most of the beloved tales are historic in nature. There's a whole series of colored "Fairy Books" containing folklore from various cultures edited by Andrew Lang.

Aside from the interesting stories, they also have great woodblock pressed images within them.

My only complaint is that many of them are simply superficial variations on the same basic plot, although the same can be said of the Grimm Brother's story.

Well, on second thought, I don't know if they're woodblock pressed but...

user233358

@Tonepoet That's a good list. The Chicago Manual seems like a big read. Btw do they teach English grammar in schools there in US? I'm not familiar with the course structure there in schools/colleges.

user233358

Here they teach it but mostly I learned English on my own. I got the worst English teachers in school although it was not a bad school... um, maybe "worst" is exaggerating, but they were kind of average/meh.

Tonepoet

@Arrowfar I don't know what they teach in U.S. schools firsthand.

user233358

19:44

I see. I thought you were an American.

Tonepoet

@Arrowfar I might be, or I might not be. I do not tell people outright. Do consider that not all Americans are taught at a school though. Some are home-schooled instead. You have Pierce v. Society of Sisters to thank or blame for that.

user233358

oh I see.

user233358

yeah "home schooling" too, I forgot.

Mitch

@Arrowfar Perfectly fine for a late intermediate or advanced learner. You already have to know a lot of a grammar to appreciate those distinctions.

MetaEd

@Tonepoet Cool sounding series. I see Tolkien complained they had the nasty stuff edited out to make them kid friendly.

Mitch

19:57

Terrible for a beginner.

user227867

Homeschooling is a good idea.

MetaEd

I want to know why we're protecting our kids from bad fairies. Surely forewarned is forearmed.

user233358

@Mitch ah I see, thanks.

user227867

But then again, we can meet friends in schools.

Mitch

@Tonepoet a very small warning about those. Those are not typeset but scanned, so searching them can miss a few things you want and get you a few things you don't want

Tonepoet

19:59

@MetaEd I think it's so we don't give our children nightmares about needing to slice off parts of their foot or birds pecking out their eyes. Cinderella was a gruesome tale.

user227867

Here in Antarctica, almost nobody is homeschooled.

MetaEd

@Tonepoet Well ... when did we start thinking we needed to do that?

user227867

There are public schools, private schools, and international schools where you pay 20, 200, and 2000 per month respectively.

user233358

@JasperLoy I like the idea of home schooling too. I think I wasted 16 years of my life. I could have learned all that in probably 5 years or so.

user233358

Also some of my teachers were quite abusive.

MetaEd

20:01

@Arrowfar My mom would have killed me.

user233358

heh

user227867

@Tonepoet What do you think of the NOAD?

Tonepoet

@Mitch That's a good point but it depends on the host partially. Google Books only provides typeset versions and I know Bartleby hosts a typeset version of The King's English and Project Gutenberg also has it.

Mitch

@Tonepoet For context though, almost all Americans are taught in a school.

user227867

@Mitch It is pretty amazing that one can search scanned documents.

Tonepoet

20:03

@JasperLoy I have no direct knowledge of it. I do have the Oxford American Dictionary from 1980 and it's somewhat lacking compared to other collegiate dictionaries.

user227867

@Mitch It's only whether the school is at home or not at home.

Mitch

just the percentage that are homeschooled in the US is way higher than in other countries because America is special.

@JasperLoy Yes, that is rocket science/AI

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy With that having been said it's somewhat understandable since it's a smaller book.

user227867

@Tonepoet OK. The NOAD 2010 is a very big book. Actually same size as ODE 2010.

Mitch

@JasperLoy there's also the concept of 'no schooling' which is home schooling, but the kids just 'do' things (almost work like, instead of studying books). Of course they have to be taught to read and do arithmetic but after that no guarantees

user227867

20:07

@Mitch All they need is to take the SAT to get into college. Now SAT is simple enough for me. I think I can take the SAT at 10 years old.

Mitch

Unschooling

Unschooling is an educational method and philosophy that advocates learner-chosen activities as a primary means for learning. Unschooling students learn through their natural life experiences including play, household responsibilities, personal interests and curiosity, internships and work experience, travel, books, elective classes, family, mentors, and social interaction. Unschooling encourages exploration of activities initiated by the children themselves, believing that the more personal learning is, the more meaningful, well-understood and therefore useful it is to the child. While courses...

Like everything else, it takes a lot of money to be able to act like you're really poor.

ripped jeans, unschooling, super skinny

user227867

@Tonepoet I am now choosing between AHD and ODE before I make a purchase this Sunday evening...

Mitch

How much for each?

user227867

At most 50 USD including shipping.

user233358

@Mitch Well, one could always become a rock star or I don't know... ripped jeans reminded me of that.

user227867

20:12

Ubuntu MATE was a little slow for some reason, so I installed Xubuntu instead.

Tonepoet

@Arrowfar I also have other options for your $0 budget. The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation by Jane Straus; English Grammar Today by Cambridge University Press and Capital City College's Guide to Grammar & Writing.

user227867

@Tonepoet I must add that the Blue Book is almost exclusively American for its punctuation and is not a grammatical treatise but rather helps you avoid common errors.

user233358

@Mitch After school when I was applying for colleges where I live, one college rejected me and gave me this reason: "We are sorry but your English is not good enough". It sucked but then I tried to improve my English like crazies. It is okay now, no one complains now so I guess I am set.

user233358

But still I make grammar mistakes.

user227867

@Tonepoet Jane Straus died a few years ago from cancer, I think. I liked her a lot.

user233358

20:15

@Tonepoet oh good. Thanks man.

user227867

It is 4.15 AM here in Antarctica.

user233358

And it is 1:16 here in Arctic Circle.

user233358

;)

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy That's unfortunate if true. Who maintains her website now?

user227867

@Tonepoet No idea. I used to visit the website daily.

Tonepoet

20:18

@JasperLoy How well does the website mimic the contents of the actual book?

user227867

@Tonepoet I think very, very well. Almost the same. I had a copy of the book a while ago.

user227867

@Tonepoet By the way, if you can't get the 4 Nikayas, I recommend you get the summary, namely, In the Buddha's Words by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Very cheap book.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Also I feel that I should note that it's a grammatical treatise by the definitions of those words that I use. It's just not a syntactical or morphological one. XP

user227867

Windows pays you a lot for advertising Windows XP, LOL.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive body detected: Is there a strong pejorative equivalent of "rapist" for someone that has performed sexual assault? by so2 on english.stackexchange.com

user227867

20:24

@Tonepoet I have no idea why OUP would separate ODE and NOAD. It really should be one book. Again, a marketing trick.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy How many of the definitions are shared?

user227867

@Tonepoet They are very, very similar. Only pronunciation and spelling is different.

Mitch

@Arrowfar Can I get your unsolicited opinion re opinion of other countries? (those graphs way above of what countries are highly/lowly approved)?

user227867

A cat is a cat, whether in America or Britain, and a dog is a dog. What difference is there?

Mitch

Since you are above the Arctic circle you will be very unbiased :)

@JasperLoy In Britain a bird is a woman, not in the US

user227867

20:28

@Tonepoet Although the current ODE and NOAD are very similar, the current Concise OED is way better than the Concise OAD.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Try it again with the word biscuit. =P

user233358

@Mitch Oh I have a lot to say on that. I was laying low for reasons :)

user227867

@Tonepoet I usually don't eat biscuits. =P

Mitch

Anyway @Arrowfar, what countries in the middle east are thought of badly by other countries in the middle east and what are thought well of? I'm not asking for your personal opinion but what you believe other people think.

leave out Israel. I know that that's the worst.

actually, it's all quite a mess.

or you can lay low. I'm not trying to get your opinion, just what your opinion of what others' opinions are.

user233358

It's okay.

user233358

20:33

@Mitch Sorry it takes me a while to put my thoughts into words in chat. I'm still typing and thinking :-)

Mitch

and the ranking is on the criterion of...

user233358

Mainly thinking.

user233358

oh you mean just the middle east. Well my opinions are biased on that of course since I'm a * cough * muslim * cough * but I can tell you here where I live we don't think less of any middle eastern country. We love them all.

Mitch

plain old 'are they OK?' as personalities. not whether they're rich or poor or whatever

Which one do you think is the most cause of difficulties there? Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Syria?

Poor Syria. They're screwed

user233358

well that's a tough question.

user233358

20:37

@Mitch Um, "difficulties" where? In the world? like creating trouble and mess in the world?

Mitch

Iran was at the top of that list (opinions by the whole world) but in the context of the ME, I have a hard time thinking that they're the worst.

@Arrowfar no just in the middle east

user233358

well I disagree with that list of course, not completely though.

Robusto

@tchrist: electricliterature.com/…

Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings weighs in at 1.37 million words, while Martin's opus so far tips the scales at 1.77 million ... and counting.

So what do people have against concision?

Martin AJ

What's the pronunciation of "Nike"? (I'm talking about that huge company)

Andrew Leach

@Robusto "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead."

@MartinAJ Do you mean Nike?

Martin AJ

20:49

Yes

user233358

@Mitch Yes people here think they are all OK. I can't say that about everyone here of course because people have different opinions. Well will have to take a very big poll :)

user233358

@Mitch Again "none". Well that's a debatable issue of course.

Andrew Leach

@MartinAJ /ˈnɑɪkɪː/

Martin AJ

@AndrewLeach thank you very much

Andrew Leach

Hmm. /ˈnɑɪkɪ:/ might be clearer.

Anyway, Greek goddess of triumph.

user233358

20:51

@Mitch Also I am reluctant to answer you honestly because you and others might mind my answer. So I am laying low for now :)

Robusto

@tchrist: Sorry, I messed up the arithmetic. TLotR weighs in only at 576,453 words total. TSoIaF is over three times as long ... and still counting.

@AndrewLeach Yes. Yes, indeed.

Martin AJ

@AndrewLeach all my problem is how that word ends. Does it end with "E" or "K" ?

Andrew Leach

@MartinAJ Nai-kee.

Martin AJ

Ah I see

Andrew Leach

Greek names ending -e usually get the -e pronounced. Rather a generalisation, but think of Phoebe, Zoe and the like. Nike does not rhyme with like.

Unless their website says it does, of course.

Mitch

20:56

@Arrowfar no problem. We'll all blame @Cerberus whatever the outcome.

user233358

Haha. Yeah.

user233358

That's funny :D

Johan Larsson

@Robusto you are back!

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Nah. You must be dreaming.

Mitch

I sense a disturbance in the force

user233358

21:03

@Mitch well I don't want to get flagged but I'll try to answer you. Give me some time to make a neutral response, I just can't. It is difficult. Let's see.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto have you been back long?

Mitch

@Arrowfar no worries. we won't hold you to it. Unless we disagree. Then we'll jump on you like rats

Johan Larsson

guess I can find out in transcript but effort

user233358

@Mitch :-)

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Back to where? Here?

I have visited chat a few times, yes.

Johan Larsson

21:04

yea

Robusto

@Mitch You've got it wrong. Rats jump off of things. Like ships. Not onto them.

Mitch

They'll jump on the last thing afloat if everything else is sinking

Robusto

And with that, I'm jumping off ...

Mitch

BB in a second. have to put a bag of rats into the wash

user233358

Well let's talk about something else. How is the weather there?

Mitch

21:11

Done. rats are all soaking under water, finally stopped squeking.

The weather here is extremely pleasant. End of summer, the sweltering heat (which is really not bad at all considering how much worse it is elsewhere) is over. Only a little rain, enough to keep plants going (there's been a drought).

user233358

Here too, it is quite pleasant here.

user233358

That's one of the reason I decided to come again and type and chat here for a while.

user233358

But only for a while. Disappearing for a few months after chatting for a few months suit me.

user233358

I don't know why, but it works for me.

user233358

:-)

user233358

21:23

*suits. I made a typo I guess.

Cerberus

22:04

@AndrewLeach Like hyperbole.

And Terpsichore.

MetaEd

And bologna.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Hyperbole isn't a name though.

tchrist

@Robusto sloth

Cerberus

True.

@Mitch What did I do?

Mitch

22:22

@Cerberus hyperbowl

@Cerberus You were standing there innocently

Obviously must be covering something up.

Cerberus

22:38

Tsk.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…