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12:10 AM
0
Q: Can we change the [studies] tag to [scientific-research]?

fi12Honestly, studies seems a bit open-ended. This could relate to schoolwork or studying a language, rather than scientific documentation on the subject. On the other hand, scientific-research is clear, direct, and can't be misinterpreted.

0
Q: When should an answer be a comment

Millie SmithA few hours ago, I commented on a question with a simple example for OP. It was a partial answer, with no evidence, no research, et cetera. I was told that I should refrain from answering in the comments. More recently, an OP asked whether certain studies had taken place. I quoted a lengthy but...

 
ᦍᦲᧃᦡᦲ!
 
1:07 AM
oh. I thought this question was about the content of the question... misinterpreted/10
 
1:29 AM
we should change the over
we could get a cm to make a synonym of
 
1:53 AM
-1
Q: Should we add this as a close reason?

OldBunny2800We are still in our first day of private beta, and we already have tons of single-language questions. I propose this as a new close reason, under off-topic: This question is off topic because it refers to a specific language rather than acquisition of languages in general. Please see the crit...

 
2:17 AM
Do we really we really need the tag. It has many uses but none of it's uses show a true need for tag. It's is rather redundant as it doesn't specify anything about the question or help narrow down the question into a group.
 
We could change it to , thus making it more obscure. This way, if there is a genuine use for it (which I could imagine, for instance, if a user is asking a question very specific to resources available for use on their own), we could add the tag, but it won't be selected often by users who see it pop up as a option.
 
@Downgoat I'm a bit on the edge
I'd imagine there's a difference for some questions whether you are taught it by structured education, or just by studying the vocab, grammar, characters
 
@Quill but in a case where that information would be actually significant it would probably be specified within the question rather than just the tag
 
yeah, but we don't know how many cases of that will occur
if we have a whole lot of cases, then we'd want the tag, but if it was a rarity, then we wouldn't want it
We shouldn't be making too many tag assumptions this early.
 
I think tags decay anyway, so if it isn't that useful it'll go away by itself
 
2:33 AM
we can always burninate it later on anyway
 
 
3 hours later…
5:38 AM
Morning
 
@bilbo_pingouin morning!
 
6:01 AM
@Downgoat you did not sleep?
 
6:30 AM
0
Q: Pros and Cons of X: One question or two?

FlimzyWe're starting to see a pattern emerge of people turning "Is X effective?" into "What are the pros and cons of X?" I think this is a good direction to go. Providing a list of pros and/or cons is (more or less) objective. My question is, should the pros and cons lists be separate questions? On ...

 
Looks like I'm late to the party! But yaay!!

I was waiting for this site, since ages. I feel it has a huge scope for graduating into a fulltime site.
Only time will tell! But, the first few questions are a pretty good start, especially we have some very experienced users, like Flimzy, Gilles, Quill, etc :)
 
we're still in private beta, we get to do most of the sculpting before it goes public :)
@Quill: I've submitted an edit to the description. It's awaiting approval. — Flimzy 2 mins ago
 
Yeah, and it's always fun! I loved it at Hardware Recs, Ethereum, 3d Printing and the WB sites!

Btw, looks like there's already a room apt for being this site :D http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/33344/polyglots

@Gilles is an active member there!
 
7:03 AM
0
Q: Is asking about learning native language on-topic?

OokerMaybe I just quibble about the detail, but in my opinion the process of learning my own native language is still considered to be "language learning", hence it's sufficient to asking here. I think changing the site name to "Foreign language learning" will avoid this. What's your thought?

 
7:53 AM
0
Q: Let's not close a question for a while until this site has firm policy and guidelines

RathonyI have just cast two reopen votes for those closed as "primarily opinion based (POB)" because I think it is very grey area where you can't define which is POB and which is not on Language Learning. People have their own methods and preferences in studying and learning other languages and I beli...

 
8:32 AM
-1
A: What should our chatroom name be?

brandaemonIf it's obvious that it's the chat room, then I would petition for it to have the name "Language Learning" or something of that sort but display in a different language each time it is seen ("Aprendizaje de Idiomas", "Sprachen Lernen", "изучение языка", etc.). The English default can be used in ...

 
 
1 hour later…
10:00 AM
I asked this question:
5
Q: In Chinese, should I learn classifiers for each noun when I learn that noun, or can I do that later?

wythagorasThere are classifiers in Chinese, also known as measure words, for each noun. I think that it is a good idea to start learning them when I do not yet know very much nouns, so that that won’t be a burden later. On the other hand, this will slow down the process of learning Chinese significantly an...

A comment, highly upvoted (score 4) states:


I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because specific language questions are off-topic here.
Do we really want to make specific language questions off-topic?
I think that will drastically reduce the scope of the site, to the point that we might not be able to get enough questions.
 
10:57 AM
@wythagoras I've voted to reopen. I don't understand why people close them off, when it is actively being discussed in the Meta. :/

(http://meta.languagelearning.stackexchange.com/q/1/41)
And I personally think they should be allowed on the site!
1
A: Are questions about individual languages on-topic?

Dawny33I don't see why they need to be off-topic. The process of learning a new language is highly language-specific. For example, the problems one encounters while learning "Hindi" is completely different from the ones while learning "French". So, please don't consider them off-topic. It might cripp...

 
11:23 AM
Hullo LL chat
@Quill Oh crap
 
yeah...
 
@Downgoat A score of 5 in the tag.
 
@Dawny33 We're moving more toward this kinda thing:
14 hours ago, by Easterly Irk
I think questions about specific languages aren't, but questions about learning them are.
 
Dayum, that comment sums it up real nice!
 
OK OK, I'm looking for a bunch of people to discuss something.
 
11:25 AM
is it language learning based?
 
Else, you Sir is definitely drunk :P
 
It's meta.LL based.
 
Sure. Please ask away :)
 
Bluntly put, the quality of questions on the site concerns me.
I think we should have what I call a "custom prerequisite" if we want to maintain quality.
Otherwise we'd drawn in POB stuff.
And I know at least one expert who'd be driven away by that.
 
It should, as the scope is being defined slowly. So, closing a qn with a reason which is still under discussion, is wrong.

So, those qns would remain open until a conscience is arrived on them :)
It happened with Hardware Recs, and it'd happen now too, especially as the scope is not still well-defined!
 
11:29 AM
@Dawny33 ?
How is that related?
 
You're asking about the quality of the qns, right?
 
I'm not talking about close reasons. Let me elaborate.
Skeptics requires answers with references. I'd call it a custom prerequisite.
It also requires questions about claims that are believed by a variety of people. I'd call that also a custom prerequisite.
 
Ahh! Now, I get it. Yeah, you're right!
 
I tried to start a discussion on what the consensus is for opinion-based questions here:
5
Q: How to avoid asking opinion-based questions?

QuillSeemingly, a lot of questions are being closed as opinion-based. How can a user avoid asking a question that's primarily opinion-based?

 
Chem.SE requires "effort" on homework questions.
@Quill . . . with a very boring answer.
Someone like me or you didn't learn anything from that answer.
Also, a meta question is never enough.
Has never been.
 
11:33 AM
yeah, hence "tried"
 
My question, is whether we should have this prerequisite, and if so, what should it be?
IMO the very reason ELL's questions are pretty crappy is the lack of a prerequisite for such a site with the likeliness of attracting low quality contributions.
 
11:55 AM
0
A: Are questions about individual languages on-topic?

Andrew GrimmQuestions about an individual language are off-topic. Questions about learning an individual language are on-topic.

 
12:33 PM
First question posted!
Hullo @SMS! Welcome to LL chat!
 
Please do not use the [studies] tag. See why meta tags are bad: blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/08/the-death-of-meta-tagsIͶΔ 23 mins ago
 
40 secs ago, by Quill
Please do not use the [studies] tag. See why meta tags are bad: blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/08/the-death-of-meta-tagsIͶΔ 23 mins ago
 
@IͶΔ I think we were going more toward using
but we haven't come to a conclusion yet
 
META TAG ALERT
BUZZ BUZZ BUZZ
 
Flimzy doesn't seem to think there's a need to "solve" this issue
 
12:35 PM
Sure, it's not a problem in private beta.
Flimzy always disappears after the private beta.
 
I have the opinion that we should tag synonymise with whatever we decide is the better alternative
but we need a cm to do that ;-;
 
As I said, it should be a prerequisite, not a tag.
 
that's a discussion for a different meta question ;)
feel free to write one
 
Feels free not to write one
Hullo @Green! Welcome to LL's chat
 
@IͶΔ Thanks!
 
12:39 PM
How
 
Lurking?
 
're you doing?
 
Yes. Lurking :)
 
I like lurkers. They're the most warm-blooded reptiles around here.
 
I was referred here by someone in WorldBuilding.SE because I'm working on learning Icelandic.
I had an idea for a question about listening to the radio in the target language, but I couldn't come up with something that wasn't opinion based or too broad.
 
12:41 PM
That's the thing.
 
Something along the lines of "Do studies show that listening to the radio in the target language benefit language learning" show be okay
 
. . . and now we're just degrading into study requests.
 
Questions should be formulated to include references?
 
@Green No, maybe answers though.
Any attempts to make all of the questions show effort is futile.
 
@IͶΔ Agreed. :)
 
12:46 PM
Experience agrees too.
 
Do you/we have a sandbox area in meta where people can try out questions before posting them to the main site?
And are discussions of how to use IPA notation on topic here?
...not specific to any language, just how to use it in general?
 
Hmm, the concept of a sandbox sounds good
feel free to make it @Green :)
 
@Green Depends, what is your question?
 
there was an IPA question earlier that got closed and then reopened
 
@Green No sandbox yet. You can't expect a site that's a day old to have everything! :)
 
12:49 PM
it might be closed now
 
IPA should be on-topic. It is about language learning.
BUT!
A question about a bunch of symbols that have their own manual which is pretty easy to read . . .
 
@IͶΔ I didn't have one in particular. I've just found IPA incredibly handy in learning how to pronounce Icelandic so wondered how far I could push that topic on this SE.
@IͶΔ Yeah, nothing as basic as that.
 
Oh, acidic?
Excuse my chemical jokes. Usually chemistry constitutes half of my mind.
 
I think I'm so early in the language learning process that I don't even know what I don't know yet.
@IͶΔ P-ha! Nice.
I guess, given your avatar, that chemistry jokes are a given.
 
@IͶΔ half your mind, the entire of your makeup
 
12:53 PM
I'm just an avid language learner, I'm not a professional or expert in this field in any way.
I'm trilingual, learning a forth.
@Quill Uh
Rechecks himself
I think I just might relate every language learning question I have to ELL.
2
Q: Do learners with an L1 without articles have problems using them in an L2 with articles?

IͶΔBefore learning English, I had acquired fluency in Persian and I'm a native speaker of Azeri Turkish. Neither language has articles, but I didn't find myself in trouble deciphering their usage in English; my intuition in using or not using them has been adequately accurate. However, on ELL, I've...

 
What is L1 and L2? Language First and Language Second?
 
Second and first languages, yes.
@Green Are you a native Englisher?
In better words, L1 is the learners native language or a language they're fluent in, so they link everything in L2 to L1 before becoming fluent in L2.
 
@IͶΔ Affirmative
English is my primary and only language unless you consider Nerd to be a second language.
 
OK, you do see that you need to somehow relate to English everything you learn in Icelandic, right?
 
@IͶΔ Yes.
 
1:01 PM
Hey @SuperBiasedMan. I disagree.
 
@IͶΔ Hello
 
Is it possible to learn a language without making the L1<->L2 association?
 
@SMSvonderTann How is you?
 
@IͶΔ I am doing well. You?
 
...or would doing that rob you of later translation abilities?
 
1:02 PM
@Green AFAIK that's the subject of interest.
@SMSvonderTann Feeling great
Haven't been proven, but some patterns are evident.
Young people need to do less associations.
Like me.
I started learning English when I was 8.
 
It seems that this SE has been more active than aviation.stackexchange.com
Possibly because of its newness though and everything has to "get into gear"
 
Yes.
IIRC there was an activity graph about SE sites from private beta to graduation.
 
when you've been around 20 hours your ratios look really nice
 
I can't remember where it is though.
@Quill Ratio?
 
the area51 stats
 
1:06 PM
Pfft, let's see if you can say that after two months into public beta.
So, TL;DR, @SMS, as soon as private beta ends, you'll see a cliff in the site's activity graph.
Then, if it's worthy, it'll start slowly attracting users.
A steady upwards towards graduation.
Aviation is in that steady.
 
@IͶΔ We did graduate already though
 
Eh?
Mhm
But you don't have a design.
 
design independent
 
@Quill I'm waiting to see when you'll speel dat corectly. :P
 
@IͶΔ It was some problem that the developers had. We will be getting the designs soon.
 
1:09 PM
@SMSvonderTann A problem of time.
I'm aware.
 
@IͶΔ ;-;
 
44
Q: Congratulations, Aviation is graduating!

Grace NoteIt's a big day, and I know you folks have been waiting. You've been cleared for graduation by the Stack Exchange Community Team! Aviation met our threshold for graduation-worthy sites and after a review, the Community Team determined that you're good to go. Reaching 'mature community' status is a...

 
Still, I won't call it graduation unless you get the design.
@SMSvonderTann YES I know.
 
@IͶΔ We have to laugh through most of these designs though meta.aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1707/…
 
Heh, guess every site finds a way to generate some fun in metas.
 
1:19 PM
@IͶΔ Hey! What did you disagree with?
Couldn't see if you linked it in chat.
Also hi everyone else!
 
@SuperBiasedMan \o
 
@IͶΔ o/
 
@SuperBiasedMan I heard you're @superbiased, so I wanted to provoke you.
Did it work?
 
Not yet, I was more intrigued.
 
Dammit, I want some drama. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
1:22 PM
┬──┬◡ノ(° -°ノ)
 
(ノ^◡^)ノ︵ ┻━┻
 
┻━┻◡ノ(° -°ノ)
 
┬─┬ ノ( ^_^ノ)
0
Q: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

GreenWhat is the Sandbox? This "Sandbox" is a place where LanguageLearning.SE users can get feedback on prospective questions they wish to post. This is useful because writing a clear and fully specified question on the first try can be difficult. There is a much better chance of your question being ...

O_O
 
Ding!
 
This is not what I had in mind at all @Green.
Let's see how it plays out.
Hey @Wytha
Long time no chat
 
1:35 PM
@IͶΔ If it gets out of hand then it can be closed by mod hammer or just deleted. No worries :)
 
Hey @IͶΔ
 
CM hammer hurts more.
 
How can one avoid asking primarily opinion based questions without putting "please cite references" everywhere?
 
That's the biggest contemporary problem of this site.
 
I don't understand why so much of these questions are closed. A lot of questions on Mathematics Educators also ask for how to teach some subject; they are mostly answered form experience form the other teachers there.
I think that a similiar thing should work here.
 
1:41 PM
@wythagoras OK that's a worse problem.
Well, Workplace.SE is also doing a pretty good job as an advice SE.
But I think we should try to keep as objective as possible.
The problem is the answer that are generated.
This seems like a fun chat.
 
It's hard to draw the line, but it matters whether the answers you get can be valuable and applicable or just "I think you should do X"
 
I'll remain here for some time.
2 hours ago, by IͶΔ
My question, is whether we should have this prerequisite, and if so, what should it be?
Let's discuss now that we have some people here CC @Wytha @Green
 
@IͶΔ How do you mean worse problem?
 
@wythagoras That you don't understand why so much of these are closed. :P
 
@IͶΔ Meaning, should we have a "show effort" prerequisite for questions?
 
1:46 PM
No, meaning if we should have a prerequisite.
 
Instinctively, I would say yes.
 
And if so, what it should be.
 
The intent is to avoid "let me google that for you" questions?
 
Fun fact: Prerequisites happened after sites realized they're getting lotsa OT, and the problem might lie in the scope.
@Green I think we should first get to know the site scope more.
I mean, a question like mine is of course on-topic, but what is not?
 
@IͶΔ I'm not familiar with how prereqs are used in the context of SE. It's a new concept to me.
 
1:48 PM
The gray area is dangerous to wander in.
@Green It's no official name. It's just how I call it. :)
 
@IͶΔ Fair enough.
 
I think it is not really needed yet.
There is no homework we have to deal with, and that is the biggest problem
At least on Math.SE
 
Okay, so we don't have homework questions, (that's nice IMO). So LL.SE will focus on the best practices of language acquisition?\
 
1
Q: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

GreenWhat is the Sandbox? This "Sandbox" is a place where LanguageLearning.SE users can get feedback on prospective questions they wish to post. This is useful because writing a clear and fully specified question on the first try can be difficult. There is a much better chance of your question being ...

 
There's an infinite universe of how to learn a language, but there are relatively few best ways to learn a language. Is that our aim?
 
1:55 PM
Bah, no owners of this room? (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
@IͶΔ Why do you need an owner?
 
To change feeds.
Hullo @Nick! Welcome!
Also, I find myself greeting people.
 
@IͶΔ hi!
I think the room owner is allocated magically by the system
 
Ja
 
At least, that's what happened on mechanics.se
Why is this question considered too broad? languagelearning.stackexchange.com/questions/188/…
I'd understand if I asked for all the resources, but I was asking if there were any lists of resources, which is something that has a clear, objective answer
 
2:00 PM
Uh, I think it'd make a good canon.
But not a good starting question for the site.
 
Too broad because it askes for all languages
On the other hand, one link to a list could be a complete answer
 
@wythagoras But then if I'd asked for a specifiic language it'd have been closed as too specific ;)
 
So I am a bit unsure for this question.
 
Too localized has gone the way of the dodo though.
 
@NickC I wouldn't, but some would.
@IͶΔ Doesn't prevent people form using off-topic for those questions
I wouldn't have closed this question in the first place, but I'm also not going to vote to reopen.
 
2:06 PM
I'm now thinking about narrowing down a good question to fit the SE model.
 
Are questions about how language learning works in the brain on-topic?
 
> On what criteria do people suggest languages to you to learn?
@wythagoras I think so.
In other words
> What determines a language's closeness to another one?
 
@IͶΔ The latter would be a dupe of languagelearning.stackexchange.com/questions/7/…
 
@wythagoras Wait, when have I VTR'd that one? O_o
 
@IͶΔ Less than 18 hours ago
 
2:10 PM
O_o
 
2:41 PM
0
Q: If people aren't keen on individual language questions/tags, how about language groups?

Nick CThere's a lot of debate going on about questions and tags for individual languages. Personally, I think they should be on topic, as most people on here will be learning (or teaching) one or more specific languages. However, one idea might be to lean more towards language groups, such as Romance...

 
0
Q: Has any research been done on how effective it is to have a language learning course in school before starting to learn many second languages?

wythagorasHas any research been done on how effective it is to have a language learning course in school before starting to learn many second languages? Such course should include learning about several techniques (e.g. flash cards) that have been shown to be effective.

How can there be many second languages @Wytha? :P
 
3:10 PM
2
Q: Should I use my own experience as answer?

RexYuanI was going to answer a question on how to learn pronunciation without help from native speaker - which I did - but then I wasn't sure if I should do it because my primary base is my own experience. I did give the same advice to some friends but none of them tried my method. I also see that other...

 
@LanguageLearningMeta Answered that.
Hey @Down!
 
@IͶΔ hi!
 
How're you?
 
@IͶΔ good, going through the review queues.
 
People are VTC'ing everything.
I haven't been to a private beta before.
Is it always as messy as this?
 
3:18 PM
@IͶΔ It wasn't on Open Science, but that site had in ~ two weeks less questions than we have now. (Consequentially, that site didn't reach public beta)
 
@IͶΔ well there is no scope, or help center, or anything to specify good questions from bad questions. It's up to us to choose what's on-topic and off-topic on meta. I guess over time it'll get better.
 
I don't see how that'll happen considering that every question I can see has upvotes.
 
@Downgoat I hope so. People seem to act quickly
 
But guess stuff will sort itself out.
 
One discussion we need to make is if tips are on-topic or not, that seems to be the big split...
 
3:20 PM
@IͶΔ There are 8 questions that are net downvoted, but I think that most of them have some upvotes.
 
@wythagoras You already have the vote expansion privilege.
 
@IͶΔ I have, but that doesn't mean that I want to open every net downvoted question and look to the balance.
 
Laziness always wins. :P
 
I think the largest problem is that phrasing questions like "should I ..." makes them primarily opinion based, while exactly the same question without that sentence are on topic.
Which is probably two thirds of the closed questions.
Along with some questions that are closed by people who think that single language questions are off topic.
 
3:35 PM
By the way, can someone help me clarifying this question:
1
Q: Has any research been done on how effective it is to have a language learning course in school before starting to learn second languages?

wythagorasIn countries where the main language is not a world language, students often learn second languages in school. Has any research been done on how effective it is to have a language learning course in school before starting to learn these second languages? Do students who have had a language lear...

It has currently four votes for unclear what you are asking, despite my attempt to phrase the question differently.
 
@wythagoras is does seem pretty confusing. Are you asking if taking language in school makes in easier to learn another language?
 
@Downgoat Oh now I see how some read it... With a language learning course, I mean a course giving information on how to learn languages in general.
I stated this a bit vague in the body.
I added the word techniques in the title and body
 
I wrote some more on defining the line between good subjective and bad subjective. I'll post it here just in case anyone has any disagreements or questions....
> The difference is your claim or choice can be backed up by experience or another form of expertise whether it is your own. If the question is tagged you should probably cite some research papers but otherwise. If your choice or opinion can be backed up by something, which applies to the general population which isn't a poll, you can provide your own experience if it is solid evidence, but make sure you elaborate.
@wythagoras perhaps just saying "Does taking language in school help when learning another language?" would do it
 
4:18 PM
0
Q: Should we have a set of terms that have a specific meaning on this site?

callyalaterI notice a lot of questions asking about whether certain tools are "useful" or "effective" or which languages are more "difficult"/"easy" to learn. Though these questions may seem imprecise and vague or opinion based (ie. what does "useful" mean?), it seems that if the interpretation of these wor...

 
I have two answers on meta.LL now.
 
5:05 PM
0
Q: What does "difficult" or "easy" mean in regards to language learning?

callyalaterI posed a question asking about a common terminology for the site which led to a discussion about what the consensus interpretation of some common words would be on the site for asking questions. This is one of those follow up questions to better define the scope of our site and to provide future...

 
Well, we sure got some meta work rolling.
 
5:29 PM
1
Q: "Useful" isn't usefully defined -- Suggest possible wordings

IͶΔTwo days into private beta and we notice that a lot of problem in posts that leads to no answers or closure is due to the fact that some terms are subjectively defined. See Should we have a set of terms that have a specific meaning on this site?. A good way to deal with this is ask querents to u...

1
Q: Tag Discussion - which tags do we want to launch with?

ColleenVMy experience with other language sites is that it is inevitable that certain easy-to-choose tags that aren't particularly useful end up on thousands of questions and then cleaning them up later is an ordeal. I think it would be really great to have one place to discuss the tags we want for the ...

 
5:48 PM
2
Q: What types of subjective questions do we want?

DowngoatCurrently a lot of questions are being closed as "primarily"-opinion bad. We've started to come up on a consensus on what counts as "primarily"-opinion based but we need to decide on exactly what subjective questions we want to allow and what we want our site scope to be. Judging by previous met...

 
+1 to mister -1
That's a must do meta.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:48 PM
25
Q: What is the typical growth pattern of a new beta site in the first few weeks?

Brian RushtonI've been involved with matheducators.stackexchange.com and a little bit with expatriates.stackexchange.com. I've noticed that both had very high activity during private beta and then about half as much activity during public beta (which makes sense, because people are trying to get the site goin...

 
K thanks @Gill
 
@SMSvonderTann I don't know how it compares to Aviation, but I'm worried that the early activity here is not a good sign
 
Also hullo
And hullo to you too @Flimz
 
0
Q: Are questions about teaching language accepted?

bilbo_pingouinWe are language learners or, at least, so does the title of the site says. But are questions related to the other side of the process also accepted? It could be parents trying to teach their kids, teacher trying to improve their techniques, etc.

 
It seems to me that the crowd here is very amateur-heavy, asking general questions about a topic that they're curious about
 
7:49 PM
I'm starting to think all this private beta meta work is too much for me.
 
What makes a healthy site is to have experts
 
@Gilles This too
 
Here the bulk of the experts should be teachers, not learners. Who here is a teacher?
 
People seem to only have general questions rising from idle curiosity.
@Gilles Snailboat believes this site will degrade into POB crap.
Not as harsh or blunt as that though.
I'm used to having a meta with me, so I could work on site policies.
Like I do on Chem, and on ELL.
Building stuff from scratch ain't my job.
So unless I'm needed for some job, I won't do the pioneering.
Also I'm a pretty bored and boring guy and I don't post much, because I just can't get myself to.
It's either a burning curious question or a lengthy answer.
 
@Gilles does one have to do a CS teacher or graduate to answer a question on SO?
 
7:56 PM
@bilbo_pingouin No, but would SO have become SO if the early guys that supported were the HW dumpers it gets these days?
 
@bilbo_pingouin no, but a lot of people who answer on SO are professional engineers, not learners
 
A young site is vulnerable. It needs dedicated people.
 
So far, and I'm not any expert on private beta run out, I see many question which intends to be reference question... essentially broad and opinion-based, and absolutely failing the "real problem that you faced"
 
Not lets-see-I-used-to-have-this-question-since-some-time-ago people.
 
@IͶΔ it needs both
 
7:57 PM
Well, I've explicitly stated that it's a problem others face in my question.
@Gilles Yes, but in an equilibrium.
 
@bilbo_pingouin I've been in quite a few private betas; this is a common pattern in the private beta, but on this site it feels like it's more common than average
 
@Gilles exactly, people aren't teachers, but they are programmers... so if people did learn a few languages, they are essentially the programmers of LL
 
Not 99% curious 1% expert.
@bilbo_pingouin What? How are the two topics related?
 
@IͶΔ yes, I noticed very few people self-declared as experts on Area 51 commitment
 
Look, we're not bashing the site.
We're just saying there might be a subtle problem here.
Again, reflecting on site audience.
 
7:59 PM
@IͶΔ having learned languages and learning languages...? I see some pattern there...
 
I have no interest in language learning if it's not gonna get me my fluency in Arabic.
@bilbo_pingouin I'm a language learner, not a language learning specialist. There's a difference.
Esp. considering the lot of scam that goes on, with artificial "learn language X in X days" programs.
 
@IͶΔ because all the SO answerers have 20+ years of programming experience before answering a question?
anyway, probably just my opinion...
 
@bilbo_pingouin Why do you keep insisting on saying everything is normal while it isn't? You're comparing a 9 million user base to a 200 one. On SO, the majority isn't professionals, but there are enough not to get the site shut down.
 
I think we shouldn't be too harsh about requirement of specialists... but on the other hand, I find that all questions about "efficient" ways should be closed: unclear what you are asking, too broad, POB, you name it.
 
I'm yet to see one language learning specialist on this site.
 
8:04 PM
it might be related to the fact that several millions people are programming every day, when language learning is a niche study where a few thousands are active?
I'm not saying that everything is good on the site... but on the other hand, expecting language learning specialists among 200 SE users (most/all of them active on other sites) was not realistic
 
@bilbo_pingouin There are orders of magnitude more casual language learners than casual programmers.
@bilbo_pingouin not less realistic than Biology experts, Woodworking experts, etc.
 
woodworking might be, but there are many more biologists, and biologists students than language teaching specialists
 
@bilbo_pingouin I'm not sure about that: at least in France I think the total number of student-hours in biology is less than in foreign languages
 
@Gilles if you exclude those who do not have access to SE. Those who only learned one language, those who suffered during their mandatory teaching of language at school... I'm not sure there are that many, no.
 
that may not be the case in English-speaking countries though
 
8:14 PM
@Gilles while that's only partially true, have you ever seen a conference of language teaching researchers? I did about physics teaching... and that wasn't very impressive... in term of the number of people involved.
and don't forget that language specialists are called linguists and are related to another site. Language teaching specialists are fewer still.
 
8:27 PM
Bah, tired of language sites having so much overlap
 
@Gilles, in France: tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/browse/domain about 9,000 thesis for social science, out which linguistic is a fraction... and more than 7,000 of biology alone.
@IͶΔ that's a problem of many new sites, IMO. When you look at the proposals, many of them would just fit in an already existing site... same for some already launched.
 
Nope, it's just too much in language sites.
I'm saying it because I'm tired of seeing ELU while that they get ELL questions.
*whine
Also tired of interesting ELL questions get migrated to ELU.
 
8:45 PM
@bilbo_pingouin yes, but that's at the research level, I was talking about teaching, where the bulk happens in high school
 
@Gilles language teachers, though (much) better than average are not necessarily familiar with studies about the learning process as such. They can often only provide their own experience, sometimes limited from one language to another one. And anyway, according to meta, answers shouldn't be solely based on personal experience.
 
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