English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Don't get fresh. It was just a typo.

@RegDwightѬſ道 but how do we speak English without them?

@Kitḫ Not getting fresh.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No speaking English in this chat.

Only typing.

Just maintaining high post quality.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Mutta, minä en halua puhuu suomea!

4:01 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Homophobe!

@RegDwightѬſ道 click click click tap click tap click

@MrShinyandNew安宇 This?

They're still like the weirdest figs ever.

hits screen hoping it will dispense coffee

@aediaλ Have you no coffee machine?

@Mahnax it's... it's all the way over there...

@aediaλ Is it more than six feet away?

4:04 PM

Yes.

@Cerberus Homophonophobe

I can't see it.

@aediaλ Oh dear. You can't even be sure that it's there anymore.

I know! It's hopeless!

I should give up and go back home.

@aediaλ Yes that's the article. I'm not crazy about the figs, mainly because I disapprove of "girl toys" as a concept. However, I also think girls should spend more time playing with lego.

4:05 PM

@aediaλ thought jinx

@aediaλ Mm, home.

@MattЭллен giggles

:D

@MattЭллен Okay, phew. For a moment I thought you had some weird nose-tongue issues going on there.

2

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I... yes, that.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Then it should also be homophilophobe.

4:07 PM

@Mahnax I was just teasing.

What's wrong with "girl toys"?

@aediaλ it was a scary moment for me too. My nose was getting wetter, my mouth was getting drier. Calamatus!

@Kitḫ I know. All in good fun ^_^

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't like how they are like all "and the pink stuff is in the corner and the Lego is not for everybody!" in one of the articles. Of course it's for everybody. Why wouldn't it be for everybody?

My objection to "girl toys" isn't that fairies and ponies and everything aren't awesome, but that when they are promoted as the only thing girls can play with and it's emphasized that they are not for boys, then the entire rest of the universe of play becomes NOT girl toys.

3

@Kitḫ I don't think girls and boys should be told which toys they can and can't play with. I'd rather just have "toys" and let kids figure it out for themselves. Instead toy makers reinforce cultural stereotypes and prejudices.

Oh. I see.

4:10 PM

@aediaλ yeah, exactly. Once you have "girl" toys you then by definition must have "boy" toys and the play, the kinds of play, and the expectations are set.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think worse that that, though.

eg, a play kitchen is a find toy. But if it's all pink then it's only for girls and the toy says "girls should be in the kitchen while the boys are blowing stuff up with toy army people"

It's like clothes. There is what is for everybody, and then a special subset for that other group.

But the Lego sets don't say "for girls"

And my son loves pink.

4:11 PM

Wow, trackpad handwriting is cool!

So is there a way to post video here?

@Kitḫ well, yes and no. But my daughter, at 3 1/2, is already telling me "no, that's for boys, otherwise it'd be pink"

Barf. I hope you slapped her.

(Just kidding of course)

(I LOL'd)

@Kitḫ I usually wait until the second infraction before resorting to violence :)

4:14 PM

My son, given a selection of step stools, picked the pink one because "Mommy, it's pink! I love pink! And it has princesses on it! Princesses are so cool!"

abacus!

Look at this! sexism in jokes:

@MattЭллен Funny, it's the other way around for me. But, as we have established, I am half-man.

@Kitḫ that's awesome

@Kitḫ true enough.

4:16 PM

Yeah I was about to say, according to that joke my husband is female and I am... I guess it depends on the pants and the cave

And granted, it had Disney princesses on it, but all my son knows of princesses are Storm, and Princess Pea, and Scarlet Witch, etc.

Mulan? You should let him see Mulan, she's tolerable, right?

@Kitḫ if it's youtube, just paste the whole URL into the chat, otherwise I think links end up taking one elsewhere

So yeah, duh. Girls kick butt.

@Kitḫ my daughter has been on a bit of a superhero kick. She likes Spiderman and some other "boy" role-models. So I've been encouraging that. But her favourite colours have been pink and purple for a long time, so much so that she still eats baby cereal for breakfast, because one comes in a pink box and the other a purple box.

4:17 PM

@Kitḫ Storm is so cool!

How interesting.

My son often plays "superhero" and doesn't bat an eye at being a boy hero or a girl hero.

You should see the puzzled look on his great-grandmother's face when he tells her that he's WordGirl.

"Mommy, tonight you are Gambit and I will be Kitty, because she's really nice."

Awwh.

@Kitḫ nice :)

"Mommy, I am Jubilee today, and I will blow up all the bad guys and rescue you!"

I don't think my daughter would do that.

4:20 PM

@aediaλ I haven't seen that one.

I am impressed by how un-self-conscious he is about it.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 She needs more exposure to grrls raining destruction ~~upon the world~~ on bad guys!

I mean, he knows which are boys and which are girls, and he will ask if he's not sure, but he doesn't see anything wrong with pretending to be one or the other.

@aediaλ Well, she doesn't have much exposure to that sort of thing yet at all, but still, she doesn't usually pretend to be spiderman or superman (those are the ones she knows about)

I think I would do a very bad job of parenting a girl-child.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Not even pretending to be the teenage mutant ninja turtles?

Or oh, she probably doesn't know about them, right.

4:23 PM

How am I supposed to know if my question should go on English.SE or Writing.SE?

@JackBNimble We can help you decide. What's your question?

@aediaλ soon, soon. :)

@MattЭллен So I can't just upload, I have to host it somewhere?

@Kitḫ yeah, I think upload is for images only

Whether a comma is allowed to join two independent clauses, or rather, if my sentence IS two independent clauses.

4:26 PM

you could try

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I used to somersault around everywhere as them. I think that was what it mostly consisted of. And trying not to get caught jumping on the bed.

@MattЭллен Nah, it won't let me, but I wasn't sure if it was because of formatting.

@JackBNimble You could also just post it here!

@Cerberus That's what I was going to suggest!

@Kitḫ OMG!

4:27 PM

@Kitḫ ah. that sorts that out then!

@Kitḫ Nonsense. You would be great.

And I don't think her soul would be corrupted immediately as you gave her her first pink toy; it just needs to be a bit balanced.

Just remember: pink is for boys, blue is for girls! Don't let American's tell you otherwise.

Does anyone find fault with "She is just young, do you expect everyone to be as bitter and jaded as you?"

@JackBNimble I'd use a semi-colon instead of a comma.

Or separate them entirely.

@JackBNimble I think most style guides would advise against that comma. I'd use a semicolon, like Kit, or a full stop.

4:30 PM

I'm not much of a fan of semi-colons, it is can't be joined with a comma, I don't want to write it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

400 behind the destroyers.

@JackBNimble Yup, semicolon.

Jinx!

@JackBNimble What's wrong with semicolons? They are fine!

They are my favorite form of punctuation.

@Cerberus Lots of people dislike them, actually.

4:31 PM

@Kitḫ OMG mine too!

I'd use a fullstop

@Kitḫ Mine is the ellipsis or whatever it is. …

@Mahnax Yeah, in Dutch the anti-semicolon lobby is even worse. But we will never yield!

He probably feels it would detract from the emotional emphasis because the reader would suddenly go "oh! A semi-colon. How pretentious."

@Cerberus I love semicolons. They are second to my ellipses.

4:32 PM

@Cerberus fight to the death! In an arena! Whilst being beset by lions!

@Kitḫ Then you're assuming it is meant for silly readers!

@JackBNimble Yes. They are independent clauses, so as the others say, a semicolon or period is necessary. How do y'all feel about the dash? I might use a dash here, depending on the type of writing.

@MattЭллен By lions and, worse, commas.

Oh yes! An em-dash would give it a nice punch.

@Cerberus !!

4:33 PM

"She is just young—do you expect everyone to be as bitter and jaded as you?"

Yes. Excellent.

@Kitḫ excellent choice

@JackBNimble Maybe replace "just" with "still".

It sounds better to my ears.

@Kitḫ It makes it look like a lively dialogue.

It gives it sort of an implied ", you stupid bitch."

@Mahnax I agree, though it depends on context.

@Kitḫ Hehe, could be.

4:34 PM

@Kitḫ Yes, exactly. It gives that feeling that I think was intended with the comma, without causing a heart attack in readers who would have noticed the comma splice.

@Cerberus Indeed. But this little snippet here sounds best with "still".

@Mahnax that changes the emphasis of what's being said from explaining the action because she's young, to excusing the action

@MattЭллен Hm, not necessarily.

@MattЭллен Aedia's suggestion, not mine.

For the full context: atwitsendcomics.com/comics/index/428/Jaded

4:35 PM

Oh. Then a full stop.

Or maybe ellipses.

I vote for full stop.

@MattЭллен Ha! In that context he is excusing her actions.

"She is just young...do you expect everyone to be as bitter and jaded as you?"

4 mins ago, by Matt Эллен

I'd use a fullstop

Ellipsis is fine too.

4:36 PM

I think the ellipsises pushes the emphasesis to "everyone."

Because the two clauses are tied together more closely, so that the opposition she–everyone is stronger?

Yes.

OK.

I love the way you understand me, @Cerb.

@Kitḫ No love in this chat.

4:37 PM

Which is why I think there ought to be a semi-colon there.

@Kitḫ I will gladly adopt you as my daughter some day and give you exactly the toys you always wanted but didn't realize!

So, the only thing everyone can agree on is my comma is wrong?

@JackBNimble Yup!

@JackBNimble Yes.

@JackBNimble Yes, and that almost anything else would be fine!

4:38 PM

And I still think that "still" is a better word.

@JackBNimble Basically anything else will do.

You can't go wrong with any of the other options.

@Cerberus Jinxish.

And I must run.

Yay.

That comma is really just wrong. Bad. Naughty comma...

4:39 PM

OK bye!

@aediaλ Gallop!

Or canter.

@Kitḫ giggles

Horses can run too.

I'll go home and murder that comma tonight.

Hahaha!

4:39 PM

kicks comma's lower hanging part

@JackBNimble Good.

Near jinx!

I'm leaving in 5 minutes too.

@Kitḫ Naughty lack of comma: Let's eat Grandma!

I think I'll dedicate today's comic to the lunatics at english.se

@JackBNimble You misspelled "superb stylists".

4:41 PM

We're not lunatics! We're just...

@JackBNimble You don't know the half of it.

@Kitḫ Not entirely stable.

Lunatics rely on moon phases. We're crazy all the time.

@Kitḫ differently sensible

...conforming to fanatical dogma!

@Kitḫ That's the one!

Oh no.... I didn't even realize. ctfd!

children cry

4:44 PM

Yes! See what I did there?

gives children lollipops

children squabble over who gets the red one

Okay I gotta go, see you in two days!

Have fun @Cerb!

@Cerberus Bye!

I shall miss you terribly.

By which I mean I shall do a poor job of missing you...

giggles

4:48 PM

cya @cerb, cook well!

Cerberus was the life of this party.

Thanks for the help.

You're welcome!

blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2011/12/…

probably NSFW

comedy though

"The odds are good, but the goods are odd." I love it.

5:03 PM

aye :D

This is really funny. Thanks.

No trouble!

Today is a day of unprecedented slacking.

I feel good about that

because I have a headache.

Aww. massages @Matt's temples

5:17 PM

@Kitḫ thanks :) What are you slacking off from?

W-rk.

I see. Best to keep at it then :D

Well, I am trying to very carefully build something on Production so that I can just switch everyone over and they won't notice.

But really I am chatting and playing WMT.

And talking to my husband, who is going to pick me up so we can test drive a car.

it's best to be cautious!

Oh, and I have a sandwich to eat too.

5:21 PM

nommmy

nom nom nom

@Kitḫ what kind of car?

I'm not sure. It will (most likely) be a Toyota Corolla, a Ford Focus, or a Kia something or other.

are you looking to buy a car, or is this just for fun?

@MattЭллен Yes, need new car.

Q: Do British speakers have problems understanding Jamaican speakers?

5:32 PM

Well then, good luck! I hope you find a good one. I hate shopping for cars, since I don't know if I've found a good one, or how much it should cost. Learning all that stuff takes ages

this feels not constructive

4

I'm still learning English but I think that, by the time, my level begins to be acceptable (I can keep a real conversation with a native speaker without problems). The point is that I've been listening to a song by Sean Paul (a Jamaican singer) and I really have problems trying to understand the ...

pronunciation

I don't really want to vote to close it, because I have a headache and I don't want to give an explanation.

@MattЭллен Agreed. I'm letting my husband take care of this one.

@Kitḫ good plan

@MattЭллен It's sort of on-topic, but probably ought to be edited.

Well, I changes the glaring issues, but I'm not sure it helped.

JSBᾶngs

5:48 PM

woo! my book is on b&n now, too!

barnesandnoble.com/w/uncaged-blood-js-bangs/…

woohoo!

Q: Which country was the first to use "The United States of..." as their name

6:49 PM

offus topicus maximus

0

These days when someone mentions "The United States" without any other qualifiers, it is generally understood that they refer to the United States of America. However, the USA is not the only country which calls itself "The United States of ______" Take, for example, Mexico. The official style ...

history politics

Q: Term for something that appears complex but is actually very simple

@MattЭллен voted

user19161

@JSBᾶngs Congrats! Hope you sell a million copies!

user19161

11

The Japanese have a term for something that appears simple but is actually very complex in detail: Shibui. It should be said that this is only one aspect of Shibui, as with many Japanese words/concepts. Is there a term for the opposite: something that appears hopelessly complicated, but in actua...

single-word-requests phrase-requests

user19161

Fumble's answer has comments on it that are becoming a fight.

user19161

It's a bit scary to witness these sometimes on EL&U.

JSBᾶngs

7:06 PM

@JasperLoy flag it

user19161

@JSBᾶngs Nah, I let people express themselves. You can flag it though.

user19161

It's not that serious though. Of course we won't really know what they were thinking in their minds.

JSBᾶngs

i just read the comments. that's not much of a fight

user19161

@JSBᾶngs Yeah not much of it. But you can sense the evil in the air.

user19161

Oh dear both Matts are not around. I need spiritual support...

user19161

7:12 PM

The evil spirits in me were particularly strong for the past two hours.

user19161

Anyway it's good to know that one can delete the blog with a click and undelete it with a click within 90 days.

@JasperLoy Fight the evil! Never give up!

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Thank you!

btw @Jasper did you see this LL post about deceptive? languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3500

At first I disagreed with your answer on that "deceptively simple/hard" question, then I agreed, then I disagreed again, and now I think both answers are right.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Looking at it now. At first I didn't know, then I checked the dictionary, then I just posted following the dictionary.

7:20 PM

RAWRRRR!

Eep! hides in sack

@JasperLoy I think the dictionary may need an update considering the data in that blog post

@aediaλ No rawrrr! (that's what my son would say)

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Awwh, that's cute.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm maybe. The problem about EL&U is sometimes we need to cite sources, sometimes we need to use our own intuition. So language is 90 per cent rules and 10 per cent give and take, since men make the rules change over time.

@Kitḫ nudges sack Aww, it's just a toy! Come out come out wherever you are!

7:23 PM

@JasperLoy Women make rule changes too.

@aediaλ pokes nose out

user19161

But I think personally I would just avoid using <deceptively adjective>.

@JasperLoy well, Language Log is a reliable source, given that they are linguists. Probably as reliable as any particular dictionary entry.

It's deceptively difficult to use that sort of construction.

I want the Jetta. pouts

@JasperLoy yes, that would be my advice too, unless your context makes it clear.

Not the ugly beige Focus.

7:26 PM

@aediaλ He prefers "aiyah!" to "roar"

Shoot. I have been trying to remember which characters...

埃阿 <-not this, is it?

@Kitḫ I don't think so

哎呀 <--- This is what the Windows pinyin IME recommends

user19161

@Kitḫ I've never written it out myself so I admit I don't know. And I don't read enough Chinese books.

@Kitḫ Snowman!

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah this seems more like it by my guessing.

7:30 PM

I thought it was this 啊 one on the end?

@JasperLoy also CEDICT seems to confirm that it means "an exclamation of shock and / or wonder"

Hang on. I've got my dictionary here...

@Kitḫ that's an a and not a ya

Well, yes, but I thought the -ya was an elision with the ai?

user19161

So different languages have different exclamation sounds that might sound a bit silly to a person who does not speak it.

7:33 PM

唉is what the dictionary has for Oh! But no aiya.

@Kitḫ CEDICT says: 呀 ya5 (particle equivalent to 啊 after a vowel, expressing surprise or doubt)

Oh wait.

user19161

I cannot imagine Queen Elizabeth saying aiya!

I see I counted the strokes wrong.

You are right. The one you posted is the aiya I learned.

But I also learned the ai meaning Oh! and apparently had that a/ya thing floating in my head too.

They have such funny example sentences in this dictionary.

shaoer.cntv.cn/children/C25006/classpage/video/20110504/…

7:42 PM

哎呀，好大的雨呀！

Is one of the example sentences. This is why I don't type in Chinese much. That took forever!

@Kitḫ what are you using to enter the hanzi?

The windows IME thingy

Hm, I find it really easy to use

are you using the pinyin ime?

It would help if my Chinese weren't so rusty.

I do alright with pinyin, but characters are very, very slow for me. And some things I just can't remember.

@Kitḫ smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2461#comic

7:47 PM

Hmm.

user19161

@Kitḫ It's amazing you even remember any of them. I would never have the patience to learn Chinese if I were American.

I studied Chinese for a long time. A coin flip is the only reason my degree is not in it, instead of biology.

@JasperLoy It requires a certain level of insanity. But this chat-room attracts insane people for some reason.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ah yes.

Chinese is incredibly easy to learn.

I have learned many languages in my day, and Chinese has been by far the simplest.

Q: (Do vs Does) he use this site anymore?

7:52 PM

@Kitḫ except for its evil writing system. Which is possibly the most difficult to learn.

user19161

Then the others must be Tamil, Russian, etc.

user19161

0

Does he use this site anymore? Do he use this site anymore? Which sentence is correct. And is any other correction required in the sentence or not?

questions

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes. Reading Chinese is much more difficult than learning to speak Chinese.

user19161

GR

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I love SMBC. This was once of my recent(ish) favorites: smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2436

8:01 PM

smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=303#comic

user19161

Hehe, nobody is closing the above question?