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2:28 AM
@ShmuelL, You say you're a "yeshiva educated college student" in New York. Can I ask you where you attend college?
1 hour later…
3:30 AM
@msh210 a belated hi back.
@Isaacmoses do you think I should repost my bug question on meta.so? Or should i just try to attract an SE mod's attention?
@HodofHod Maybe give it a few days, then go to MSO?
@HodofHod If you really want an answer now, there's no reason not to cross-post to MSO
4:36 AM
@IsaacMoses. Meh. The answers not that urgent. I'm not sure what my internet access will be after tomorrow night, though. I'll be abroad. I'm gonna miss j.se.
5:22 AM
I seem to remember answering this question a while ago, but can't seem to find it now. any ideas? judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/12200/…
5:39 AM
@Menachem Searching isn't turning anything up for me.
6:11 AM
@ShmuelBrill. a while. I'll still pop in every now and again, just not as often, as my internet access will be sporadic. Exile yourself to a place of Torah, they say.
9 hours later…
2:49 PM
@Menachem It sounded familiar to me to, but I also couldn't find it by searching. Perhaps it's just that this question comes up frequently in other contexts.
3:02 PM
Good morning, @Neal ftali
3:21 PM
@IsaacMoses lol good mornin ^_^
Naftali is fine
@Neal Problem is, @Naftali won't ping you in here.
@IsaacMoses or will it?
weird that they dont allow use of name from the site to be in chat
@Neal Can't you edit your chat user account?
@IsaacMoses lol no, i can only change my parent account. which will change it everywhere
I think the problem is that your chat account is not site-specific, so if you change it to Naftali, you'll be Naftali on other sites' chat as well, for better or for worse.
3:25 PM
@IsaacMoses exactly lol
@Neal <Tries my own> Oh, I see.
@IsaacMoses where r u from?
I have found 2 stack ppl literally down the block from me lol
(both jewish)
@Neal grew up in Philly, went to school in MA, lived in MD, now in St. Louis. You?
@Neal Judaism.SE people?
... or Judaism.SE people-to-be 8^)
@IsaacMoses whoa. Grew up in long issland. just got married 3 weeks ago, now live in brooklyn
@IsaacMoses lol im not sure
@Neal Mazal Tov!
@Neal How do you know they're stack people?
3:27 PM
@IsaacMoses thanks ^_^
just actually met him 2 weeks ago
his friend lives down the street from me in brooklyn!
lol yep, i guess so haha
@Neal Have you seen meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/522/… ? Any interest?
@IsaacMoses hehe i have no groups.
@Neal OK, well if you run into any other stack people who are in a Jewish group of some sort, I'd appreciate it if you'd show them that.
3:44 PM
@IsaacMoses kk ^_^
3:56 PM
Q: Parashat Hashavu'a Chat - Recurring

Isaac MosesOur first Parashat Hashavu'a Chat, despite the fact that it was advertised only minimally, turned out to be a lively, interesting discussion. So, why not do it again every week? Where: The Judaism.SE chat room When: Wednesdays at 17:30 UTC (19:30 in Israel; 12:30 in New York) (You can get a do...

^^^ In 1.5 hours.
1 hour later…
4:57 PM
@IsaacMoses, Regarding meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/522/…, I am currently a student at NYU, which has a large Jewish student community. It's a bit late to set anything up for this semester, but I might be interested in doing something once the spring semester starts up.
also, regarding that, im in YU and can contact some clubs about such an event, also for next semester.
@jake and @ArielK - Cool! Please do contact relevant clubs (Jewish ones at NYU, Jewish or tech ones at YU), and let us know. Keep in mind that the details of whatever arrangement we come up with are highly negotiable, as this is a relatively new program, so they shouldn't assume that the answer will be "no" to any ideas they have for particular arrangements.
Posted by Alison Sperling on December 14th, 2011

The holiday season is upon us, and as another year comes to an end, it is Stack Overflow Annual User Survey time again! So, take a break from wrapping gifts and come tell us about yourself. We promise it will only take a few minutes of your time.

Of course, as the “annual” implies, we’ve been running a survey for a few years now, including last year’s survey which marked the first time the anonymous data was formally used in support of selling advertising on Stack Overflow and Server Fault. This data is an important part of keeping the lights on around here, and, as a user of either of those two sites, or any Stack Exchange site for that matter, we ask you to participate. …

Somebody flagged the blog post as spam; if it's annoying you can try asking a mod to remove it from the room's feeds
*** Begin Parashat Hashavu'a Chat #2 - Vayeishev 5772
@Neal Thanks. More resources can be found at parsha.blogspot.com/2011/12/vayeshev-sources-2011-edition.html
I take my 6-year-old son to a Saturday night father-son learning program, and each week, a different child gives a devar Torah. This week, my son's giving it. ...
... He's never delivered a devar Torah before, but he's a precocious kid, so I thought I could explain some idea to him, and have him write down what he's say, for me to edit.
... My first thought was to pull something from R' Hirsch's commentary, but most of the interesting stuff there this week is on topics that are not terribly relevant to my son, e.g. parenting mistakes and carnal temptations.
... I recalled this nice idea about being sensitive to people, but I didn't recall a source, so I posted here to ask for one.
5:38 PM
@IsaacMoses The "carnal" part of this parsha is quite bewildering. Maybe we should start with that.
... Now, I've told him the idea, and just have to get him to write it down in his own words.
@jake Two such parts. Start with either or both as you please.
@IsaacMoses don't forget that Yosef was also kind to the sons of the maids, when the other brothers put them down
@MichaelMrozek Thanks. I'll take any such requests under advisement.
@Menachem Source? (I can maybe use that as a backup. I don't plan to make him try to incorporate two pieces of evidence.)
Ok. I was actually referring to the Yehuda/Tamar episode.
5:42 PM
I actually have always understood that whole story accordingly with pshat that "Well, things like that were relatively normal in those days. They didn't have the Torah. Don't judge." To explain Yehuda's actions.
@Menachem OK. Rashi from Midrash hints at praise for Yosef.
@jake Yehuda seemed pretty stricken when confronted with evidence of what he'd done.
I'm open to interpretations that justify Yehuda that make sense according to a pshat approach.
@IsaacMoses I didn't say that it was the most moral thing, even back then.
Another issue I've always thought about: Many compare this episode to yibum and justify Tamar's side of things with this. I always wonder, would we be able to understand the mitzva of yibum from this parsha if we ignored the parsha of yibum in Devarim?
Many who stick around on this site know that I am an avid reader of Abarbanel's commentary. He believes that Sefer Devarim contains no new mitzvos not at least mentioned or hinted to in earlier books of he Torah. And when confronted with yibum, he cites this parsha. This is why I always wonder as above. Suppose Moshe had never made his "Devarim speech" explaining certain mitzvos more in depth. Would we be able to understand all of what is in Masechet Yevamot from this weeks parsha?
@jake just because it is hinted here doesn't mean that we would know it lehalacha.
It could just mean that no mitzva there that isn't somehow hinted somewhere else.
@jake Does Abarbanel go into any more detail on this issue, either there or here?
especially considering that the Gemara learns halachos from psukim n dvarim
5:52 PM
I don't understand, what exactly is this discussion?
@HGabriel Free-form chat relating to Parashat Hashavu'a.
@ShmuelBrill I know. But from his introduction to Devarim, he makes it sound like Devarim was said by Moshe on the spur, and if he had not said it, we would not have it. Moshe had run out of mitzvos from Sinai to tell the Jews. This makes me think that altough things would not be as easily understandable without Devarim, maybe we should still be able to learn everything out through sufficiently clever "drasha"-style learning.
Cool, but exactly is this specific discussion?
@HGabriel We are discussing how accurate the mitzva of yibum could be implied from just this weeks parsha, ignoring the parsha in Devarim.
@jake it also says that the whole Torah is in the Aleph of anochi
5:55 PM
Or at least I am.
@HGabriel You can scroll up to see everything that's been said so far. To see what each message is responding to, you can click on the little arrow on the top-left of the message. To respond to a particular message, you can hover over the bottom-right of it and click on the arrow there.
Thank you. @ShmuelBrill where does it say that?
yet most people would find it hard to paskin practically from that Aleph
@ShmuelBrill Whatever that means. I doubt that if we just had a scroll with an aleph in it, that even R' Akiva could get that much out of it.
I think many mefarshim hold that yibbum before matan torah was different than yibbum after matan torah (see for example, Avraham ben HaRambam quoted here mhcny.org/parasha/1108.pdf )> If so, we probably couldn't learn the practical halachot from the story
5:57 PM
@jake It seems to me that to justify that idea regarding any particular Halacha that's traditionally derived from verses in Devarim would be speculative at best. The derivations we have are part of the tradition, and the hypothetical alternatives from before Devarim, in many cases at least, aren't.
@Menachem Assuming yebum before matan Torah existed. Is it mandatory for b'nei noach? I think not.
it says there (from the Zohar) that all mitzvos are included in the word Anochi
Cool. There can't be Yibum for Bene Noah.
the same pdf says the following: "Earlier in this paragraph in the Guide, Maimonides writes about the obligation of yibum, "It
was a custom in force before the Law was given, and the Law perpetuated it."
@IsaacMoses True. But I always considered yibum as clear proof that there are novel mitzvos in Devarim. But apparently not.
5:59 PM
either way, most people wouldn't be able to derive much from it.
It probably could be derived from somewhere else, but the Ikar is in Devarim. Seems possible, no?
@IsaacMoses Also, what about Gid Hanashe? We seem to do just fine with only the reference to it in Bereshis, lacking a clearer explanation anywhere else in the Torah.
@jake I didn't say that no Halachot are sourced before Devarim!
(and I assume the Abarbanel didn't either)
I guess this whole thing is merely speculative. I'm just pointing out that according to some, hypothetically, we would be able to learn the practical mitzva of yibum from this week's parsha.
There are plenty of times that we learn things in the Torah twice, once from the derash and once from the actual commandment, and even sometimes we learn learn only from derash, and sometimes only from commandment.
6:04 PM
@IsaacMoses What I meant was that there are mitzvos that we learn only from a mention before matan torah, and we darshan enough from there. Imagine if Moshe decided to expound upon it in Devarim. Would the mitzva be any different? Ideally speaking, no.
@jake The before-matan-Torah question is a separate one. I seem to recall that we consider the main source for Milah to be not that of Avraham Avinu.
@IsaacMoses Interesting... I wonder about that.
@jake (I think it may be in the Chinuch)
@Neal (backreading) Mazal tov (on the marriage, not the living in Bk :-P )
Ok... For those interested in another topic, I got another one: Yosef's brothers seemed to hate him, and were jealous of the attention he got from Yaakov. But to kill him?! Unbelievable! How could they even think of that?
And according to those that interpret "naar et b'nei bilhah..." that he was friendly with the sons of the maids, why didn't at least they stick up for him?
@jake they viewed him as a roidef, whom they are allowed to kill
@ShmuelBrill How so? Why would Yosef kill them?
@jake If I recall correctly from R' Hirsch, they had an understanding of everyone in the nascent B'nei Yisrael being autonomously good-doing (or something like that), and they saw him as intending to set himself up as a king. The examples of kings that they'd seen so far were Nimrod and the Edomite chiefs, and they considered such pretensions of autocracy to be dangerous to the entire mission of B'nei Yisrael.
@IsaacMoses And Malkitzedek?
6:14 PM
... it's a shame that I don't have my R' Hirsch in front of me, or I could explain it better, quote, defend, etc.
17 mins ago, by Menachem
I think many mefarshim hold that yibbum before matan torah was different than yibbum after matan torah (see for example, Avraham ben HaRambam quoted here http://www.mhcny.org/parasha/1108.pdf )> If so, we probably couldn't learn the practical halachot from the story
^^ There's also a more general concept of yibum than is covered in halacha: a moral yibum, if you will. This is the yibum that Tov and Boaz were confronted with w.r.t. Rus.
...they were not brothers of Machlon, merely cousins. (I forget the exact family tree.) Yet Boaz said Tov should do yibum, and, when he didn't, Boaz did it himself.
This, I've long thought (no source), is what Tamar was attempting with Y'huda.
@IsaacMoses OK, But still, kill him? I find it hard to swallow.
@IsaacMoses Anyhow, I have to go. Maybe I'll pop in later if I have time.
@jake I'll have to re-read R' Hirsch and get back to you. Please consider posting on Jewish Life and Learning.
@msh210 :-P haha thanks ^_^
@Neal (I lived most of my life in Brooklyn and consider myself to be from there, so can make fun.)
6:20 PM
@IsaacMoses Picking up on my earlier thread, anyone have any tips for helping a little kid write and deliver a devar Torah?
@msh210 lol i lived in bkln till i was 5. then moved out to long island lol
@IsaacMoses hehe not sure how u replied to yourself, but basically it doesnt have to be that complicated. could just be a tellin gover a part of the parsha or an interesting thing that can be learned from it
@Neal Yes, that's the plan. It's the preparation and presentation that remains to be done.
@IsaacMoses how old?
@Neal Six, but precocious.
@IsaacMoses dw too much abt it ^_^
6:30 PM
@Neal (To reply to yourself, find the post you want to reply to and hover over the left edge. Your browser's status bar should now tell show you a link with a seven-digit number in it. Start your message with a : followed by that number.)
@IsaacMoses e.g. this message, which starts with ":2713440"
*** End Parashat Hashavu'a Chat #2 - Vayeishev 5772. Yeyasher Kochachem!
@Neal weird. i did not know that.
Sorry about the repeat bookmarking. I've got it right now.
@Neal And if you would rather copy-paste than type, click the left side of the message, right-click (or ctrl-click on a Mac) the "permalink", and you've got the number (as part of a URL: you'll need to cull).
@msh210 i see ^_^
... I mean now.
6:54 PM
Q: Weekly topic challenge 5772-09 (week of Vayeshev 5772): Chanukah

msh210This week's topic challenge is Chanukah. You're encouraged to think of and post good questions on this topic. What is it? There's a single topic that people think about during the week and come up with good questions on. The topic is set each Wednesday or so. What do I win? An Internet with m...

ANNOUNCEMENT: Topic challenges will no longer be announced via a banner at the top of the site. See this week's challenge (above) for tips on how to be notified when a new challenge comes out.
... I hope meta.stackoverflow.com/a/115821/179 gets implemented some time soon.
@IsaacMoses see my comment there.
Q: Weekly topic challenge 5772-09 (week of Vayeshev 5772): Chanukah

msh210This week's topic challenge is Chanukah. You're encouraged to think of and post good questions on this topic. What is it? There's a single topic that people think about during the week and come up with good questions on. The topic is set each Wednesday or so. What do I win? An Internet with m...

@Neal Ah. Didn't realize you could do "meta-tag." Thanks.
@IsaacMoses I tried submitting an edit to no avail..
@IsaacMoses also learn how to organize links better in markdown. that looks so mixed up.
@Neal Not sure what you mean by that.
7:08 PM
@IsaacMoses dont do [link text](url)
do do: [link text][reference]
[reference]: url
@Neal The former is a lot easier to type.
put all references on the bottom so they are easier to change
@IsaacMoses but much harder on the eyes when editing
@Neal For content that's likely to require more editing, re-use references, or have lots of references, I agree with you.
@IsaacMoses maybe maybe ^_^
@Neal I copy-paste the wekly challenge announcement from week to week and edit. Any text that's going to be edited is easier with [](): With [][] []: you need to edit the link both where it appears and at the bottom.
7:16 PM
@msh210 lol no you dont
if the reference is the same you only have to edit it in one part
@Neal The references and the label text change each week.
@IsaacMoses ?
... e.g. "Menachem did"
@Neal If I change from this week's challenge is [Chanuka](url of the chanuka tag) to this week's challenge is [somethng else](url of the other tag)-- but with the [][] []: style -- then I need to change text in two places.
@IsaacMoses hehe watev. just looking ^_^
@msh210 You still are changing the text in two places lol
7:18 PM
@Neal But they're right next to each other.
@msh210 also you do not need to use the url of the tag. you can just do [tag:tagname]
@Neal yeah, what @IsaacMoses just said.
... it comes down to an aesthetic/stylistice choice.
@IsaacMoses ehh
@IsaacMoses true true ^_^
@Neal true, if I want to refer to a tag. here, it's a topic I'm referring to, and merely linking to the tag page.
7:19 PM
@msh210 (That's why I didn't edit that one when taking @Neal's advice to use the tag markdown.)
@Neal I'm familiar with the syntax.
also why does the tag not have an h?
can we add a synonym for that?
@IsaacMoses ^^
@Neal Done.
... though someone typing the "h" version would find the non-h version via autocomplete
7:21 PM
shouldnt that redirect to the synonym?
@Neal works for me.
@msh210 it did not for me...
@Neal caching?
@msh210 lol possibly
@IsaacMoses @Neal any objection to getting rid of all the comments on this week's topic challenge post? They're not useful for future visitors AFAICT
7:23 PM
always caching lol
@msh210 go for it!
@Neal Ditto
@msh210 dont remove @Monica's though
oy... and u did anyway..
@Neal Yep. I refreshed to make sure there were no new ones, and then purged, and in the mean time there was a new one. :-(
@msh210 can u get it back?
@Neal And I don't see a way to restore it (which is odd).
7:25 PM
@msh210 to the metaFlow!
I like Monica's idea, FWIW. Perhaps comment with it in quotation, explaining that it was deleted inadvertently, to preserve the idea and not confuse her.
Ah, @msh210 did that already. Y"K.
@Neal i've no idea what that's a reference to
@IsaacMoses B"T
(Yom Kipur, baal t'shuva?)
@msh210 I think you're pulling my leg.
Q: Moderators should be able to undelete comments

Martin ScharrerSince recently moderators can see a list of deleted comments (which is not displayed nicely with Firefox 5 under Ubuntu Linux btw). There should be a possibility to undelete these comments as well, at least for a certain period of time. Sometimes moderators delete the wrong comment by accident an...

@IsaacMoses not intentionally. I was merely commenting on the ambiguity of abbreviations.
@msh210 That guy looks like he's got a velvet kippa on, though he doesn't.
7:31 PM
@IsaacMoses How do you know? (Just playing devil's advocate. :-))
@msh210 Closer inspection.
@msh210 it means goto meta lol
@IsaacMoses Maybe he wears it back on his head.
@msh210 Alright, so kareiv him to J.SE already!
@Neal No, I knew what you meant. I just didn't know whether you were paraphrasing some bit of popular culture.
7:33 PM
@msh210 lol no. i was combining meta and stackOverflow
@IsaacMoses Das ist ein sehr guter Vorschlag. Ich werde.
@Neal ah
@msh210 I love Google. translate.google.com/….
@msh210 ... and if you were objecting to my use of foreign jargon, I reserve the right to do so in an informal context to make a reference that I find amusing.
@IsaacMoses I wasn't.
7:54 PM
Q: Bli Neder Loophole

NaftaliWho came up with the Bli Neder loophole of: Bli neder I will help you do X Or Bli neder I will etc... And the list can go on and on. Who came up with addingBli Neder which basically means "Without a promise" to things that seem like promises?! Does that remove one from the obligatio...

odd, why cant i edit that chat message?
@Neal I can.
@IsaacMoses odd
8:18 PM
Q: Avodah Zarah in other religions

morah hochmanPicking up on some of the discussions recently, which religions are Avodah Zarah and why? Are all the different sects of Christianity treated the same way in regards to this issue? How does that translate into our relationships with them? I do not believe that this question is a duplicate of th...

@msh210 Any thoughts re my comment on the question?
@Neal, so you're asking "who came up with", a history question, and also "Does that remove one from the obligation of the promise?", an halachic question. Right? (Just making sure.)
@msh210 yes
@msh210 Agreed. Perhaps the Q should be recast as for non-Ch religions or about general principles in classifying religions, rather than about classifying all religions under the sun.
@msh210 I added an article on the bottom
@IsaacMoses did i put my sources in there right?
@Neal Looks fine to me.
Q: Bli Neder Loophole

NaftaliWho came up with the Bli Neder loophole of: Bli neder I will help you do X Or Bli neder I will etc... And the list can go on and on. Who came up with addingBli Neder which basically means "Without a promise" to things that seem like promises?! Does that remove one from the obligatio...

cool. http://mi.yodeya.com/q/12231/719 oneboxes
8:32 PM
Q: Bli Neder Loophole

NaftaliWho came up with the Bli Neder loophole of: Bli neder I will help you do X Or Bli neder I will etc... And the list can go on and on. Who came up with addingBli Neder which basically means "Without a promise" to things that seem like promises?! Does that remove one from the obligatio...

@Neal What's the 719 supposed to mean? It doesn't add anything for me.
@IsaacMoses I was about to edit to ask only for principles that determine whether a religion is AZ, rather than a list, but stopped when I saw that the OP has now edited the Xianity back in :-(
@IsaacMoses It gives user 719 a badge for referring people to the page.
@IsaacMoses heh? thats my user id. thats how they track clicks
@IsaacMoses click link on any Q it will append ur user ID. its for one of the badges
@Neal Wow. I had no idea.
@IsaacMoses lol and u call urself a mod :-P
@IsaacMoses thats how u earn badges like Booster
@Neal By the power vested in me by the mighty rchern, not by virtue of my knowledge of badges.
8:47 PM
@IsaacMoses :-P
8:59 PM
Q: Duplicate tags torah reading/sevice

Double AAWhy do we have a torah-service tag and a torah-reading tag? Is there a difference?

1 hour later…
10:11 PM
@msh210 judaism.stackexchange.com/search?q=blood time for a y tagging spree

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