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7:09 PM
@0celo7 This is one of the ways the old extract vengeance on the young. ::dry washes hands:: In time you will get your own chance.
 
@dmckee or not
 
Are you kidding? You're prime Grand Vizier material. You'll be a natural at cackling, having people thrown in the scorpion pit and wearing a turban with a point in the middle.
Can you grow a good goatee or van dyke?
It's not compulsory, but it helps.
 
@dmckee wtf?
@dmckee no
 
vzn
7:35 PM
lol always wondered what 0celo7 looks like :P
3
 
@vzn I can give you a picture...
@dmckee working out my class schedule two days before the semester is over
this is so much fun
 
Huy
why is your semester over in 2 days
it starts later and ends earlier?
 
@Huy we started in august
 
Huy
rly
 
I am completely reworking my schedule
 
Huy
7:45 PM
ok
how
 
I'm getting out of Calc 3
 
Huy
why
 
And dropping that shitty stat course in the spring
 
Huy
can you already solve $mx'' = mg$???
 
@Huy uh, what
calc 3 is vectors
 
Huy
7:46 PM
lol
like what
 
multiple integrals
 
Huy
multiplying them by matrices
ok
much green
 
so stoked
 
Huy
very div
such rot
 
rot
Europoor detected
 
Huy
7:47 PM
win
 
so now I have two spots free, going to move algebra up
 
Huy
such sylow
 
and I need to decide if I want to take complex variables
 
Huy
much isomorphisms
is that complex analysis?
 
or I could look at PDE, but there's a schedule conflict that might not be resolvable
@Huy light on the analysis
 
Huy
7:49 PM
i.e.?
 
contour integrals, Cauchy theorem
 
Huy
but
not very rigorous or what do u mean by light on analysis
 
^
 
Huy
ah ok, but you already know residue theorem etc I assume?
 
yeah
that's why I have to decide if I want to take it
 
Huy
7:50 PM
can you not take it and just write the exam and never go?
 
maybe
but I'd rather take something that I can get some use out of
 
Huy
a friend of mine did like a lot of self-studying in high school and then took diffgeo for graduate students in the first semester and got the highest possible grade
 
well I'm not smart like that
 
Huy
he's quite smart
 
I need to talk to the professor for this course
If I can get ahold of the syllabus I can make an informed decision
 
Huy
7:51 PM
well if I were you I'd just take the ones you already know anyways and get them for free and in the meanwhile attend courses that you don't know everything about yet
 
the course catalog is worthless
 
Huy
why?
 
> Introduction to the theory of functions of a complex variable, including residue theory and contour integrals.
"including"
That's not a comprehensive list...I need a comprehensive list.
 
Huy
you mean because it makes it sound like that's something special? :D
 
@Huy no it makes it sound like a shitty course...
And I've had one prof tell me it's just tricks for doing integrals...
 
Huy
7:53 PM
Analysis 1 including continuity and integrals
 
@Huy Taking that next semester
 
Huy
lel
ah, is it for physicists / engineers @0celo7? the complex course?
 
Actually it's even worse
 
@0celo7 Tricks with integrals, tricks with series, tricks with differential equations, tricks with ...
 
I think it says
Analysis 1 -- Theory of the real numbers
 
Huy
7:54 PM
lol
 
The one time my father called me for help with his homework, he was stuck because he hadn't had an equivalent course. After one change of variable we were able to establish that he had the complementary error function and then he could use a table ...
 
@Huy Yes. It's required for electrical engineers and physics majors.
 
Huy
@0celo7: ah, so it's likely really just "tricks for integration"
 
@Huy Indeed.
 
Dad is a Mech E, so he hadn't had t.
 
Huy
7:56 PM
but Riemann mapping theorem :(
 
lol
 
The one for math majors is Papa Rudin-based
 
Huy
I only know Ahlfors
and Freitag
and Cartan
America is always Spivak and Rudin
 
My advisor also told me to look at a combinatorics class
instant veto
 
Huy
wat why
you already know how to count right?
 
7:58 PM
oooh I could take some number theory...
 
Huy
give me a complete list of what you can take
 
@0celo7 did you stand there and look at the class? were they creeped out by someone looking at them?
 
@Ghost Hello NaCl
 
Upgrade time:
 
@Huy sometimes
 
7:59 PM
 
Huy
that's sufficient
 
Not touching this anymore, I think.
 
Huy
@Danu that's what she said :(
 
@0celo7 hello Fluorine Uranium Carbon Potassium -head
 
@Ghost what?
 
Huy
8:00 PM
@0celo7 give me a complete list of what you can take
 
^That's what he said
 
@0celo7 think of their chemical symbols
 
I'm a Sulfur Hydrogen Iodine Tellurium head
 
SHITe?
my one is more accurate
 
you speak broken english
is that not how you say it down there?
@Huy I cannot do that
 
Huy
8:03 PM
why not @0celo7
 
there will always be conflicts
 
Huy
who cares
just show the list
I want to give serious advice
 
can't be in two classes at once
 
Huy
then you can modify it such that there are no conflicts
 
Crap, geometry of surfaces is not being offered
 
8:03 PM
@Huy you le mad
 
Huy
SHUT UP KID ZOMFG
 
who is this guy?
why doesn't he just leave us alone
 
Huy
because this community is so bad
wtf
that comparison
so bad
 
:o
I can take the real linear algebra class
 
Huy
what is real linear algebra
 
8:05 PM
the one for math majors
 
Huy
how do you do that
R isn't algebraically closed
 
why not
 
Huy
because $x^2 = -1$ that's why
 
x=i
I don't see the issue
 
Huy
I SAID $R$
 
8:06 PM
yeah?
 
Huy
stop making ghost mad
 
no u
 
Huy
no seriously
what the fuck do you do in real linear algebra
 
he's not saying anything
Don't know...have to find the prof
 
Huy
gimme a list
i'll give you mine
you can choose for me too
 
8:07 PM
ok going to hunt down profs!
brb
 
Huy
???
 
8:36 PM
@Danu Uh...not sure if I'm looking at this wrong, but the red lines in the spiral do not seem to me to project down onto the red line in the circle, they would be more like the "left" half-circle than what's drawn there
@Huy The Freitag from my university?
I seem to recall he's written some books
 
Huy
probably, Eberhard
Freitag/Busam I think
 
Ah, yes, Busam's also here.
they're both in principle retired but they seem to not be at home with the concept
 
Huy
:(
I read Jänich too, a very different approach to a "text" "book" :P
 
hi guys! is there a difference between the "non-coordinate basis" of a Riemannian/Lorentzian manifold and a "locally flat" basis? Nakahara defines the "non-coordinate basis" like this, which sounds to me exactly like locally flat coordinates..
 
@Bass The locally flat basis is a non-coordinate basis, but not every non-coordinate basis is locally flat (non-coordinate just means it doesn't arise from a choice of coordinates, nothing more)
 
8:48 PM
@ACuriousMind oh ok.. but the way Nakahara defines the non-coordinate basis (see link), it is the same?
 
@Bass Yes, what Nakahara writes there is the locally flat basis, and really I'm not sure if there is use for non-coordinate basis which aren't locally flat
 
@ACuriousMind ok cool. Have you read (parts of) Nakahara's book? just want to know how mathematically rigorous it is.. to me it seems pretty rigorous, but still, it's aimed at physicists and covers pretty much in 500 pages, so I'm not sure
 
@Bass Haven't read it, but from what I've heard the level of rigor (and of depth of explanation) varies wildly by topic
I seem to recall @0celo7 read it
 
@ACuriousMind have you learned these concepts just from lectures? if not, what are your favorite books?
 
@Bass I learned most of it from lectures (and by osmosis, perhaps, as I can't recall where I learned some things), I can count the number of textbooks I've actually read on one hand
 
9:09 PM
@ACuriousMind hmm?
@Bass The rigor is meh
@Huy Ok, I'll be taking a PDE course.
@ACuriousMind forgot most of it, too
 
Huy
@0CELO7 WHERES THE LIST
 
@0celo7 oh.. too bad
 
@Huy uh
 
9:24 PM
@ACuriousMind Yeah, you're right, but I didn't find it very important.
I can easily fix it.
 
Any topology up?
 
@BalarkaSen Now really really finalized my covering drawing :p
 
After a whole day? heaves a long sigh
 
@BalarkaSen Heh, I wasn't working on it continuously, don't you worry.
I mostly just waited for a good answer on tex.se
@ACuriousMind Happy now? Last time I'm posting this, I swear.
I'm very happy with my improved understanding of decorations in TikZ :)
 
9:55 PM
@Danu What's the thing in your avatar? It looks like it could use a capped grope.
 
Would anyone here be up for attempting to answer this question on WB? I don't mean to plug the site or the question, but I'm betting that it won't get answered anytime soon.
 
0
Q: Time Dilation Special Relativity

samsoniteAssume that 437 days is a reasonable limit for how long a human can endure constant-velocity space travel. Proxima Centauri, the star closest to our Sun, is 4.24 light years away from Earth. If you wanted to fly to Proxima Centauri within the 437-day limit in a rocket of mass 2.00×10^6 kg , how m...

 
@Danu The motivation for the germ and equivalence class definition that physicist's tangent vector definition only helps for manifolds embedded in $\Bbb R^n$.
 
10:11 PM
@BalarkaSen Sounds like you need a grope ;)
@BalarkaSen Your sentence does not make sense to me, grammatically.
 
I meant "[...] equivalence class is that [...]"
@Danu No idea what that's supposed to mean.
 
@BalarkaSen Fortunately :)
@BalarkaSen I still don't understand your sentence.
(I'm not sure what the ellipses are supposed to stand in for)
 
It means those two are for manifolds not embedded in anywhere, silly.
Whereas the tangent vector definition is only for manifolds embedded in R^n for some n.
 
@BalarkaSen No it's not?
Which of the four definitions are you talking about? You should just retype the entire sentence once (correctly) so I can understand you :P
 
What the hell is your tangent vector definition. I thought you were talking about the perp of the gradient vector pointing away from the manifold at that point.
 
10:17 PM
It's in Lee's book?
 
I have never read Lee.
 
Well, the part where he explains the different approaches is about 2 pages long, at the end of chapter 3.
I'm not sure what your issue is, but I'm sure you can clear it up by reading the book :P
Also, why do you care if we need things to embed into $\mathbb R^n$? Whitney saves us all!
 
My issue is that I don't know what tangent vector means in arbitrary smooth manifolds not embedded in anywhere.
 
@BalarkaSen Oh, well that's easy to cure: Read chapter 3 of Lee's book.
 
By tangent vector, do you mean a derivation?
 
10:20 PM
That's one of the equivalent definitions, yes.
 
@Danu No it doesn't. Existence is one thing, but starting off with a prescribed embedding gives a different geometry on the manifold.
 
The whole point of my HSM question is that there are several ways of defining them.
 
Intrinsic $\neq$ extrinsic.
That's a \ne!!!
 
Who says we need to prescribe the embedding?
In any case, you're wrong that we need to embed.
 
You're missing my point, but I am not going to argue anymore.
@Danu Depends upon how you define 'tangent vector' :P
 
10:22 PM
I didn't make up any of the content of that question on my own; I just took some parts from Lee's book.
@BalarkaSen All the definitions mentioned in my question work without embedding.
 
it might, but you didn't define much. I don't know how tangent vector to a chart is defined, and not everybody has read Lee :P
 
Then read Lee, if you want to understand all the details in my question. It's not for nothing that I explicitly provide a reference.
 
I will read the relevant section you have mentioned tomorrow, but I am trying to expressing my opinion that a question should be reasonably self-contained.
 
@BalarkaSen I sympathize, but I do think the context has been elaborated on sufficiently---and I think most people would agree with me. The point of the question is not the precise technicalities behind everything, but rather to get a historically oriented POV on the developments that led to these definitions. Anyone able to answer the question will know the definitions already.
 
Usually, by tangent vectors to charts, I thought you meant the plain old tangent vectors in R^n because Guillemin-Pollack's definition of a manifold is a manifold embedded in R^n.
 
10:28 PM
@BalarkaSen I guess that charts is the key word: They take you to $\mathbb R^n$
 
@Danu "Anyone able to answer the question will know the definitions already" I disagree, perhaps not by that name. But point taken.
@Danu Oh, image of that tangent-space level map of the local parameterization $\Bbb R^n \to M$?
Is that what is meant?
 
@BalarkaSen I think that's correct---but your terminology (from G&P) is not the one I'm most used to/comfortable with, so no guarantees.
 
Ok, I'll have a look at Lee tomorrow. Thanks.
I can tell you why the derivation interpretation is useful, but I don't think that'd be the original motivation behind it.
You can generalize derivations to produce tangent spaces of affine algebraic varieties and affine schemes. It's a very sheaf-theoretic thing - a linear map with leibniz from stalk to $k$.
 
@Danu Well...I'd also prefer the red lines on the two circles be the same, now t switches position from the left to the right ;)
 
@ACuriousMind Shaddapppp
I already corrected that in my own copy
Then, because I already promised I wouldn't post it again, I refrained from yet another repost :P
 
10:36 PM
I ended up posting a horrendous picture for the universal cover of $\Bbb{RP}^2 \vee T^2$.
 
lol
So why does the mapping cylinder of a map $f:X\to Y$ (strongly) deformation retract onto $X$ iff $f$ is a homotopy equivalence?
I was thinking in this route:
$f$ hom. equiv. $\Leftrightarrow Y\simeq \operatorname{im} X$
 
One direction is clear. The other is harder.
Bet your tikz will crash trying to draw it.
 
@BalarkaSen With the (lack of!) detail you drew it? Hah!
 
My picture is just a sketch of the universal cover. The real thing looks much much messier.
It's $\Bbb R^2$ with a sphere attached at each integer lattice, and with each sphere attached an $\Bbb R^2$ and for each of those $\Bbb R^2$ again a sphere attached at each integer lattice point and so on.
 
@BalarkaSen Pictorially, maybe one direction is clear to me but not more formally.
I wanted to do something like this:
$f$ hom. equiv $\implies Y\simeq \operatorname{im} X\implies $ $M_f$ defo. retr. onto $X\times [0,1]\implies M_f$ defo. retr. onto $X\implies f$ hom. equiv.
First step is clear
second not clear
third step clear
fourth not clear
 
10:45 PM
It doesn't make sense to say $M_f$ def. rets. onto $X \times I$.
 
I think there maybe a problem with the second.
 
@Danu By definition of a homotopy equivalence, you can deform the $Y$ that's glued to one end of the $M_f$ into $X$.
 
$X\times I$ is not even a subspace of $M_f$.
@ACuriousMind How is that going to help me construct a deformation retract of $M_f$ onto $X \times 1$?
 
@ACuriousMind That was the fourth step
 
@BalarkaSen Because that deforms $M_f$ into $X\times I$?
 
10:47 PM
By deform, you mean $M_f \simeq X \times I$ (\simeq means htpy equivalence)
 
How does that help you construct a def. ret. $M_f \times I \to X \times 1$? What's the map?
 
@BalarkaSen IT doesn't. You deform $M_f$ into $X\times I$, then retract that onto $X$. You'Re right that $M_f$ doesn't retract onto $X\times I$.
 
That's my point.
 
Yeah, I was afraid that that wasn't the case...
$Y\simeq \operatorname{im} X$ is the same as deforming $M_f$ into $X\times I$, no?
 
10:50 PM
@Danu Yep, just throw away your third step there, it's not needed.
 
@ACuriousMind Hmkay.
 
The word "deform" should be boycotted.
 
Agreed
 
What verb to you want to use? "Homotope"?
 
Homotopy equivalent.
 
10:51 PM
That's not a verb.
 
My problem is the following:
 
Oh, you want a verb. No idea. :D
 
It is clear that $M_f\simeq X\times I$ and also that $X\times I$ defo. retracts onto $X$
 
@Danu If you don't agree with me, I'll punch you so that your face will be deformed beyond recognition.
 
But that doesn't really mean $M_f$ defo. retracts onto $X$, does it?
 
10:52 PM
Oops, just said it.
 
@Danu Yes it does.
 
@Danu Yes, it doesn't.
 
LMAO
 
Uhhh...lol
 
@ACuriousMind I'm not sure how you ensure that $X$ stays fixed during the first part
 
10:53 PM
Give me an explicit deformation retraction $M_f \times I \to X$.
 
@Danu Yes, that's why it would not follow in the general case, however, in this case, it does, I think.
 
@BalarkaSen Assuming that $Y\simeq im X$?
also lemme define $\im$:
$\newcommand{\im}{\operatorname{im}}$
 
I mean, give me a deformation retract (not handwave, an explicit map) from $M_f \cong X\times I$.
 
Okay $\im$
 
The point is that you can't do it.
 
10:54 PM
^Right
But they're homotopy equivalent
 
Exactly.
 
So then how do I magically obtain a defo retr to $X$?
 
Think about it.
 
^did that a while ago :P
 
Want me to reveal?
 
10:56 PM
Meh, no hints?
 
Think about all the incoming and outgoing maps to/from $M_f$.
 
For instance, is my chain of deductions viable?
so $f$ hom equiv $\implies Y\simeq \im X\implies M_f$ defo retr onto $X\implies f$ hom equiv?
 
@Danu I don't know. In my proof, you don't need that $M_f \simeq X \times I$.
 
eww topology
 
@Danu The second step is so unclear than I cannot tell if this is viable or not :)
@Danu Consider the inclusion $X \hookrightarrow M_f$ and then compose with the retract $M_f \to Y$. What do you get?
 
11:03 PM
@BalarkaSen

QUOTE:
A grope is an infinite construction using disks. If you have a map from a 2-disk (circle with interior filled up, yes) to a 4-manifold, it can have a lot of singularities. Now around each singularity, pick loops based at the singular points and similarly attached 2-disks. Those in turn have singularities. Keep attaching them. You'll end up with an infinite tower of singular disks.
ENDQUOTE

i.stack.imgur.com/x2qJM.png

I don't understand:
We have checked that my understanding of continuous map between topological space is correct
 
@Secret Well, I am assuming singularities of the disk are set inside the interior, so that the boundary is singularity free.
Loop starting at the singular point, winding around and coming back along another branch.
Let me get a picture.
These are examples of Casson handles.
The original disk is drawn like a twisted loopy line. Then you glue disks along the loops starting at the singularity.
Those will have singularity. Keep gluing. To infinity.
 
Hmm, I see, so the singularity in the interior of the disk is where it self intersects?
 
Yes.
And we know there is no way to perturb to remove self-intersection for maps $D^2 \to M$ where $M$ is a 4-manifold, although it is possible for 5 and higher dimensions.
So this is what you do - keep pushing the singularities off the frame. To infinity.
 
In this case, a grope seemed to me is effectively like a topology that result from mapping a casson handle into a 4 manifold
(or maybe more than one casino handles
oops casino (stupid autocorrect)
 
Well, gropes are some kind of generalizations of Casson handles. I don't know much about this.
I can only tell you that a Casson handle, when thickened, is homeomorphic to $D^2 \times \Bbb R^2$. So it effectively takes a singular disk and results in an embedded disk (no self intersection) with the same boundary.
That theorem is both nontrivial and nonobvious.
 
11:17 PM
@BalarkaSen Hey, sorry, no time to talk now
 
Sure.
Oh dear, I have hijacked the physics chatroom. Apologies, please continue your discussions :D
 
^no, I like it
 
...were there any discussions to continue?
 
yeah, I think @0celo7 might have something to say about the gameplay of Fallout 4. :P
 
11:37 PM
Geekery from a webcomic we don't see in here much:
 
11:58 PM
@BalarkaSen what?
 
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