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8:36 AM
@JosephWright Yay, Teensies!
@DavidCarlisle It is been a very hard time lately. This thesis thingy is not an easy adventure. :)
8:56 AM
@PauloCereda how far through that are you? Doesn't seem that long since you started:-)
@DavidCarlisle Oh it's been a while. :) I have a lot of things done, but now there comes the worst part: glue them together. :)
@PauloCereda just think of it like writing an arara manual: once you've done the hard programming work, getting the manual put together is a piece of cake.....
@DavidCarlisle I am trying. :) I have a huge amount of stuff to put together. :)
1 hour later…
10:05 AM
@clemens Oh no, you liked Wikibooks.
Wikipedia just gave me a big LOLZ: I donated a small amount last year, let's say CZK 100 it doesn't really matter. Now, they are convinced I donated EUR 100, which is like 30 times more, and keep hitting me by mails asking me to donate such nice money again :)
10:26 AM
@yo' ooooh
@Johannes_B :p good thing that for pages this only means being interested. I also liked Bundesregierung ;)
@Johannes_B just wait: once we're done with it it will be a good reference! :)
11:28 AM
Glancing over the transcript I decided to give the de.wikibook page a look for the first time ever, assuming that you guys, being (La)TeX experts, were maybe a bit nitpicky or overly critical, but I should have known better: It's absolutely horrendous. According to the main page it is supposed to help the intended target audience to get started with LaTeX and to garner interest. Oh dear, if I had seen that first I'd given up on LaTeX within the first half hour.
For example: looking at de.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX-Kompendium:_Tabellen I just found the ugliest table I have ever seen done with LaTeX, although I fear you guys might have seen even worse. Looks like they tried to copy a table done with Word verbatim.... shudder
It seems to me that for something like \[ \int_0^\infty e^{-x} \; dx \], the size of the integral sign doesn't change when I change the font size from 10 to 11 to 12 points. I haven't taken a rules to it, but it definitely looks like the integral sign stays the same, on screen ...
Why is this?
@BMWurm I've seen worse, but this one is among the first ten. ;-)
@Szabolcs Do you have \usepackage{amsmath}?
@egreg Aha! After including that integral signs start to scale as well.
@Szabolcs The standard font definition file for the math extension font loads cmex10 at fixed size.
@Szabolcs see also texdoc exscale (exscale is part of the base distribution)
11:43 AM
However, if I \usepackage{lmodern} then it's back to no scaling.
@Szabolcs Yes, that's a bad misfeature of lmodern
@Szabolcs After \usepackage{lmodern}, add also
    <-7.5> cmex7
    <7.5-8.5> cmex8
    <8.5-9.5> cmex9
    <9.5-> cmex10
@egreg Does this make those symbols not use the Latin Modern font ... ?
@Szabolcs It uses cmex, which is better.
@Szabolcs Try this and see

    <-7.5> cmex7
    <7.5-8.5> cmex8
    <8.5-9.5> cmex9
    <9.5-> cmex10

\scriptsize $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\footnotesize $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\small $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\normalsize $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\large $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\Large $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\LARGE $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
I have this Mathematica package for using LaTeX snippets in Mathematica graphics. I can see that I added \usepackage{lmodern} at the same time when I added a font size setting to it. But I cannot remember why I needed lmodern ... I think it meant to ensure that vector fonts will be used, but I cannot remember. Is there any other alternative to lmodern than cm-super if I want vector fonts?
@Szabolcs Compare it with the result obtained by scaling lmex10

\scriptsize $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\footnotesize $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\small $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\normalsize $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\large $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\Large $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\LARGE $\displaystyle\sum\int$\par
\huge $\displaystyle\sum\int$
@Szabolcs cmex has been a vector font for many years.
12:03 PM
I see your answer here:
A: Strange behaviour of binomial coefficient's delimiters

egregThis is a problem in how lmodern sets up the math extensions font, by saying \DeclareFontShape{OMX}{lmex}{m}{n}{% <->sfixed*lmex10% }{} which is utterly wrong, in my opinion, because it destroys the settings made by amsmath which would solve the problem. The fonts, unfortunately, do not ...

12:25 PM
@BMWurm well, me and @Johannes_B just started on improving the German wikibook. We'll come to the tables (but it may take a while)
@Johannes_B @StefanKottwitz do we simply delete this? latex-community.org/forum/…
@Johannes_B Re siunitx in the class file: is the class meant for science (in the sense of physisc, chemistry, …)? Then having it there is not too bad, IMHO.
@Johannes_B scrbase is not that bad, either (tex.stackexchange.com/a/193452), especially if the main class file is a KOMA class, too…
1:05 PM
@egreg @barbarabeeton Well computer modern isn't better, omxcmex.fd contains the sfixed* option too, but here amsmath overwrites this settings, while it seems not care about the similar lmodern problem.
@PauloCereda however, I think I'll donate again; they are, with Google, the most important website in the world; all Facebooks, Youtubes and stuff are epsilons compared to Wiki.
@yo' even more important than this? :
@UlrikeFischer by default (without exscale) but the extended (ams) computer modern font set does have the extension font in more than one design size, which is apparently not the case for lm.
@clemens It is the famous template i have been working on. It can be used for all kinds of stuff, but since the original had a list of symbols or something, it got into the Thesis template and is still in the MDT-template. sinuitx is not required but used in the tex to typeset the symbols in the example list.
@DavidCarlisle I'll think about it. :D
@clemens book with a bit of etoolbox hackery. \addchap added, but nowhere is said that one can use it.
1:20 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, but the amscode is not only about design sizes. The main point is that amsmath allows the font cmex to scale for larger fontsizes. There is an old answer from Michael Downes here groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.text.tex/wrM_CR5t3Z4/… where he says that he couldn't persuade the LaTeX team to remove the sfixed. Perhaps nowadays he would have more luck ;-)
@UlrikeFischer -- not being familiar with omxcmex.fd, i've looked it up. it's in latex/base, which means it's the responsibility of the latex team. a bug report should be posted. would you like to do it, or should i? as for lmodern, the last real update of amsmath was before lmodern existed; clearly something needs to be fixed there, but it's not immediately obvious what -- i'd vote for fixing lmodern directly, but it's not my call. it really shouldn't need to be in amsmath though.
@UlrikeFischer I note he recommends one of my packages:-)
@barbarabeeton it's not really a bug but a compatibility decision not to change it back then by default and offer exscale package instead
Could someone with TL15 be so kind as to run lualatex on the code below?
@DavidCarlisle -- but since cmex* is now "universally" available, the reason for the compatibility decision is no longer valid. i'll check the bugs list, and post one if it's not there.
! LaTeX Error: Command \newattribute already defined.
Or name \end... illegal, see p.192 of the manual.
1:27 PM
@DavidCarlisle Not just me then. Thanks.
@TorbjørnT. known feature (although not that package give me a second I'll send a patch)
@DavidCarlisle but which doesn't use the design size for \DeclareFontShape{OMX}{cmex}{m}{n}{ ;-(
@UlrikeFischer not sure Y&Y had the extended AMS set at that time
@TorbjørnT. vvv

@DavidCarlisle Thanks!
@TorbjørnT. I thought Heiko was going to update luatex.sty to do nothing (or at least adapt accordingly) now latex is already luatex-aware, but apparently not yet. Also of course luatextodonotes could not load luatex.sty
1:33 PM
@barbarabeeton If the fd-file where written today I would certainly vote that they allow arbitrary scaling. But changing them after so many years will affect existing documents and so is naturally not easy. Btw: I saw that amsfonts uses arbitrary scaling: <9.5->cmex10 and amsmath scaling in steps: <10><10.95><12><14.4><17.28><20.74><24.88>cmex10. Is this by purpose?
@DavidCarlisle I can send an email to both Heiko and the luatodonotes author.
@TorbjørnT. thanks
1:58 PM
@UlrikeFischer -- you're right, of course. (i guess i'm looking at things from the point of view of ams production requirements; since everything published here has the versions of every package recorded, and re-used if the file is reprocessed, that avoids upgrade-compatibility problems.) regarding different scaling in amsmath and amsfonts, i'm sure it was intentional -- amsmath has the comment % need to override cmex7 fontdef from amsfonts.
2:37 PM
@clemens Freaking templates need to be fixed. de.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/_Erste_Schritte
@UlrikeFischer Does MiKTeX convert eps to pdf on the fly of a pdflatex run?
2:53 PM
@Johannes_B Yes, and imho it doesn't need any external tools (just tried on a rather new pc without perl and ghostscript and it worked fine).
@UlrikeFischer and @DavidCarlisle -- the comments re cmex in the amsfonts documentation (texdoc amsfonts.pdf) are quite enlightening; there is even more commentary in amsfonts.dtx. however, i can't date any of it, since the whole of this collection was reorganized in 2008 and the history lost. but other evidence shows that y&y was working on hinting the cm fonts by 1997. since amsmath for latex2e dates from mid-1995, i think the "extra sizes" were unavailable for only a couple of years.
@UlrikeFischer Thanks.
1 hour later…
4:14 PM
@JosephWright Is there currently a good way to specify the language of a reference in a Biblatex .bib file such that the .bib file plays nicely with both babel and polyglossia? I'm not that familiar with either of these packages, but from just a quick look at things, it seems like you have to use langid with a generic language (e.g., english) and langidopts with the more specific dialect (e.g., british) for polyglossia but for babel you would just put british in langid.
So it seems like there isn't currently a good way to do this so that the .bib file would work with either babel or polyglossia?
@FaheemMitha Sorry I missed your message the other day! I stepped away from my computer sometime before you sent it, I think.
@AdamLiter That one's outside of my range of experience, sorry
@AdamLiter No problem. How's the PhD going?
@JosephWright No worries. Thanks for the response! :) And sorry that I've been intermittently bugging you with Biblatex questions in chat. :p Any idea who I might ask, though? Or should I just ask a question on the site?
@UlrikeFischer I'm writing a package for this. ;-)
@FaheemMitha It's actually just my MA, not a PhD yet. But it's going well. I've been presenting research at a lot of conferences this semester, so it's been busy. Alan and I actually have some joint research we're presenting at a conference in Boston this weekend. :)
How are things with you, @FaheemMitha?
4:22 PM
@UlrikeFischer Here it is
    [2015/11/10 v1.0 Scalable math extensions font (Enrico Gregorio)]
    <-7.5> cmex7
    <7.5-8.5> cmex8
    <8.5-9.5> cmex9
    <9.5-> cmex10
4:33 PM
@JosephWright Typo or time machine?
@egreg that's new, isn't it? Actually interface3 says »New: 2016-09-19« :) — clemens 4 hours ago
@UlrikeFischer Package uploaded
@egreg Fixed in the source: I'll be updating CTAN probably later this week anyway
4:57 PM
@AdamLiter I'm doing Ok, thanks. Currently trying to decide on a new scanner. It's complicated by the fact that I run Debian. And doubly complicated by the fact that I live in India.
Considering the Scan Snap ix500. Which was loaned to me to try by the company, amazingly. And even more amazingly, works out of the box on Debian.
But it's pricey.
@AdamLiter I didn't know people did MAs these days... :-)
@clemens Thanks, I deleted it
@Szabolcs I uploaded the macros for cmex as a package to CTAN
@egreg what does it do differently to exscale?
@DavidCarlisle exscale has just the standard sizes: 10, 10.95, 12, and so on. Like amsmath
@egreg does it oh blame Frank:-)
5:11 PM
@DavidCarlisle It had to be compatible with older TeX distributions using PK fonts.
@egreg we can blame him anyway
@DavidCarlisle And Knuth too.
@egreg in a way the whole nfss font size mechanism is warped by that requirement, people these days expect that they get the size they ask for:-)
@DavidCarlisle And fix-cm ignores cmex; in the list of authors there is…
@egreg I wonder why...
@egreg Note the footnote to the author list
5:18 PM
@DavidCarlisle Excuses, excuses.
@DavidCarlisle Good plan
@DavidCarlisle Prod @willrobertson to sort out xfss
@egreg type1cm of course does redefine the cmex range:-)
5:35 PM
Hi all, and especially German friends, I heard that in new issue of TeXnische Komodie is an article about TeX4ebook by Herbert Voss. Do you have any details? Unfortunately I don't have access to it and I also don't speak German
5:49 PM
@egreg -- why not blame the folks who wrote software to drive laser printers, that didn't support vector fonts until much later?
6:04 PM
It seems as if @wipet's account has been hacked. He posted a LaTeX answer.
@HenriMenke Note that it is not really a LaTeX answer :-p
@yo' More of a 'don't use LaTeX' answer, so all is well
@JosephWright si si :)
@DavidCarlisle But then lmodern came and pushed back everything to the starting point.
@FaheemMitha The scanner issue sounds complicated. Good luck! :) And yeah ... I intend on doing a PhD at some point, too, but I guess I'm just taking my sweet time ... being a student isn't so bad ... :p
6:19 PM
@DavidCarlisle Isn't the question with wipet's answer an instance of a well known hidden feature of longtable? tex.stackexchange.com/questions/276699/…
@egreg probably, i had missed that question, will look later.
6:36 PM
@DavidCarlisle I collected some green ticks for older answers; it would be nice to have Psmith's battle online.
1 hour later…
7:38 PM
@egreg fortunately @Paulo is too busy for such frivolity
8:09 PM
@egreg What is the name of the package?
Hello!! Is there a command with which I can change the size of all the letters of a text that I have written?
@MaryStar \huge ?
Can I use maybe a specific usepackage or something else, or do I have to use this command at each word seperately? @DavidCarlisle
@MaryStar why do you want a package. surely size changing commands are in any tutorial \small \large \huge etc, they affect the rest of the current group.
So do I have to write after \begin{document} the command \large or \huge ? @DavidCarlisle
8:16 PM
@MaryStar that would work, of course if it is't just a one-off use the "proper" way is to use a class with a default font size that fits your needs. What is the real use?
I want to make the letters bigger at my cv.
What class do we use?
@MaryStar well most cv classes are (I would guess) based on article so will have [11pt] and [12pt] options, do you want the text bigger than that?
@Szabolcs fixcmex, on TeX Live in a couple of days.
8:39 PM
@barbarabeeton About half-way through that article you want ;-)
8:51 PM
I tried [12pt] and I think it is ok... How can we make it even larger so that I can compare? @DavidCarlisle
@MaryStar most classes only have 10,11,12, some have more you need to look at teh documentation of the class you are using, or as it's just a one-off document use \large etc
Ok... Thank you!! :-) @DavidCarlisle
@JosephWright -- you are indeed speedy!
@AdamLiter You don't seem to be on this chat much. Compared to some.
9:51 PM
@egreg Three expandafters in a row. Where is the Paradies from the expl3 team? ;-)
@UlrikeFischer :)
@UlrikeFischer Waiting for Will to finish xfss
10:16 PM
@egreg I'll remind him (again)

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