Language Overflow

12:47 AM

@snailboat that link from 29, Oct: lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/adjuncts doesn't work ... :( Do you have another link? (puppy dog enthusiastic expectation ...)

Anonymous

@Araucaria I'll mirror it: quarplet.com/adjuncts.pdf

Anonymous

1:03 AM

@DamkerngT. Yes, that's right

Anonymous

All consonants are palatalized before /i/ in Japanese.

Anonymous

In the case of /h/, this palatalization shows up as the allophone [ç] in the 'standard' Tokyo accent.

Anonymous

Typically ひ /hi/ is [çi] and し /ši/ is [ɕi].

Anonymous

But for some speakers, this contrast may be neutralized

Anonymous

They are, after all, phonetically fairly similar!

Anonymous

1:08 AM

For speakers who have this neutralization, in Western speech, it tends to be neutralized to the benefit of ひ, and in Eastern speech, it tends to be neutralized to the benefit of し.

Anonymous

So you can hear しと [ɕi̥to] for ひと [çi̥to] 'person' in some places.

Anonymous

1:23 AM

And as I said, other consonants are palatalized before /i/ too. き /ki/ and ぎ /gi/ are very noticeably palatalized as [kʲi] and [gʲi]. に /ni/ is [ɲi]. The palatalization is also the source of じ /ǰi/ [ɟ̟ʑi] and ち /či/ [c̟ɕi].

Damkerng T.

2:06 AM

@snailboat Does Google Translate pronounce ひでこ correctly?

Hmm... Perhaps it's not a good name. I can't find its pronunciation on Forvo.

I'm trying forvo.com/word/%E3%81%B2%E3%82%89%E3%81%8C%E3%81%AA/#ja

Interesting... cm3ak's and strawberrybrown's ひ appear to have a bit of the quality of "sh" (so I guess it's [ç]). iwaki's and kiiro's seem to be a plain [h]. But shamytam206's ひ sounds like an "sh" sound!

Damkerng T.

2:51 AM

> Most Indo-European languages, in addition to verb tenses (which demonstrate time), have verb moods (which indicate a state of being or reality). For instance, the most common moods in English include the indicative, the imperative, the interrogative, and the conditional.
Another, rarer mood is the subjunctive mood (indicating a hypothetical state or a state contrary to reality, such as a wish, a desire, or an imaginary situation).

> web.cn.edu/kwheeler/grammar_subjunctive.html

> Subjunctive: "If I were a butterfly, I would have wings."

> Indicative: "When I was a butterfly in a former life, I had wings."

> Today, the mood has practically vanished; modern speakers tend to use the conditional forms of "could" and "would" to indicate statements contrary to reality.

So by this definition, "could" and "would" is never the subjunctive mood, I think.

Nihilist_Frost

3:23 AM

I remember that the affricate J came to prominence in English via Norman.

Then in Modern French those affricates are now sibilants.

French "ch" is now always /ʃ/

I remember in business class there was a lesson that said "The K meaning 'kilo-' is the Greek letter for 1000." I had to facedesk at the business department at my school to the highest degree.

First of all, Kappa stands for 20.

Second, the Ancient Greek word that the prefix was derived from had a chi, and no kappa in it!

Anonymous

3:40 AM

@DamkerngT. I hear cm3ak, iwaki, kiiro, and strawberrybrown's as [ç] and shamytam206's as [ɕ].

Damkerng T.

Oh!

The two examples by strawberrybrown seem to be of different tonal patterns, too.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, they're LHHL and LHHH

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. As a learner I think you can learn the LHHL pattern as the basic / more common one

Anonymous

Dictionaries list three:

Damkerng T.

Ah, that means that LHHH is possible too! (Though it also means that LHHL is the common one.)

Anonymous

3:52 AM

①ひらが↓な
②ひらがな↓
③ひらがな

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Anonymous

But 2 and 3 are indistinguishable unless a particle follows as part of the same accent phrase.

Anonymous

That is to say, there's no drop unless you add something to it like the particle が:

Anonymous

①ひらが↓なが
②ひらがな↓が
③ひらがなが

Damkerng T.

^It looks like a slot machine. :D

Nihilist_Frost

3:55 AM

I never heard of why "hiragana" was suffixed with "-gana" instead of "kana" until I heard of rendaku, lol

Anonymous

Yes, in English sequential voicing.

Nihilist_Frost

now stuff like "uchigatana" click in

Damkerng T.

I have never heard of "rendaku", even!

Nihilist_Frost

It's in Japanese, lol

Anonymous

Well, most Japanese speakers haven't heard of rendaku either.

Nihilist_Frost

3:57 AM

yeah

Anonymous

Rendaku is when you have a compound, and the first consonant of the second element of the compound changes from voiceless to voiced. (Well, sorta.)

Anonymous

The problem with defining it that way is that /h/ "voices" to /b/, when of course /b/ is not the voiced counterpart of /h/.

Anonymous

But in Old Japanese, /h/ was /p/.

Nihilist_Frost

And then it falls in place

Anonymous

It's thought to come from post-nasal voicing.

Nihilist_Frost

4:00 AM

I wonder how they managed to reconstruct something from before kana existed

Damkerng T.

I think it's sorta like connected speech in English. It could happen without any writing system.

Anonymous

It is hard to reconstruct forms from before Old Japanese. There isn't a lot of comparative evidence, but there is some.

Anonymous

There are other Japonic languages.

Damkerng T.

Was it called Ainu?

Anonymous

Ainu is not Japonic.

Nihilist_Frost

4:01 AM

Ryukyu?

somewhere around there?

Damkerng T.

I think I've heard that name. But where...?

Anonymous

Yes, the Ryukyuan languages.

Nihilist_Frost

@DamkerngT. Which name?

Damkerng T.

Ryukyu.

Anonymous

Kana has been around for a long time, though.

Damkerng T.

4:03 AM

Oh, Ryukyu Kempo!

Anonymous

That's a long o, by the way: kenpō

Damkerng T.

Maybe I've heard it in Katanagatari. :P

(In the story, the ultimate sword was "man", i.e., the swordman, our hero, was a sword himself, so to speak.)

Nihilist_Frost

The easiest kanji I can remember are: hito, katana, kanji

Anonymous

Which kanji do you mean by kanji? 漢字? 感(じ)?

Nihilist_Frost

漢字

Anonymous

4:08 AM

Wow! You think 漢 is an easy kanji :-)

Anonymous

Most people start with like, 一二三十

Nihilist_Frost

It's just that I focus on it, that's all.

I pick up at like random, lol

Damkerng T.

中, 口, and 日 are my favorites. :D

Even though my nickname is 一. ;-)

Anonymous

I kind of like 魑魅魍魎

Damkerng T.

Argh! Lots of bugs! (I think)

Anonymous

4:11 AM

Oh, no, the "bug" radical is 虫. These have 鬼!

Anonymous

Which you may know as おに :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

I do have a favorite "bug" character, though. 蝸!

Anonymous

Though it's not really used much in Japanese. In Mandarin it's 蜗, as in 蜗牛 'snail'

Damkerng T.

Take 2: Argh! Lots of spirits!

Anonymous

4:13 AM

Hah!

Nihilist_Frost

that mouth radical

I didn't pay too much attention to readings

"kuchi"?

Anonymous

Yes, くち is 口 is 'mouth'

Nihilist_Frost

日 = sun radical?

Anonymous

Yes. 日（ひ） 'day'

Nihilist_Frost

"Nippon/Nihon" is another kanji I can remember off the top of my head

it is compound

Anonymous

4:19 AM

Yes, Nihon and Nippon are words related to each other that can both be written with the same pair of kanji, 日本.

Anonymous

Usually Nihon, though not always.

Damkerng T.

We have a brand named Nippon Paint over here. :-)

So I was surprised when I heard the word にほんご the first time.

Anonymous

/h/ is more common in all registers and is the overwhelming choice in regular speech.

Nihilist_Frost

"hentaigana" just makes me giggle.

homophones...

Damkerng T.

(-_-)"

Oh, I just remember that I found a good case of can/can't.

Nihilist_Frost

4:30 AM

Well, to learn them complex characters I'd gotta go back to radicals. Trying to learn each from scratch is unfeasible.

Anonymous

Do you plan on learning the Japanese or Chinese writing systems?

Nihilist_Frost

not to pro fluency.

Anonymous

It is definitely helpful to break them down into elements.

Nihilist_Frost

I've read that advice a thousand times, lol

time to start doing it

Anonymous

'Radical' is traditionally identified with the 214 elements used in indexing characters in the Kangxi Zidian.

Anonymous

4:32 AM

Other people use 'radical' more generally to refer to graphic elements that make up characters.

Anonymous

I try to avoid doing so, since it feels a little sloppy to me. I say 'element' instead.

Anonymous

But people use a number of different terms.

Nihilist_Frost

bye

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Damkerng T.

zzz well!

Puzzle of the Day 20151103 (What does he say, can or can't?): dropbox.com/s/l3dmke1g8k9onxp/…

Anonymous

Besides 'radical' and 'element', other terms in use include 'grapheme' and 'primitive'.

Anonymous

4:35 AM

I hear can.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat せいかい！

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. やったね＾＾

Damkerng T.

Yay! Oh, have I told you that a few more characters from previous Heroes were back (at least in an episode)?

Anonymous

Oh! :-)

Damkerng T.

Hiro, Mohinder, and our Superman's mom. (I can't remember our Superman's name.)

Anonymous

4:42 AM

I didn't know! Actually, I had an inkling some characters might show up.

Anonymous

Peter Petrelli?

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes!

Anonymous

I haven't been keeping up with television.

CopperKettle

6:14 AM

@snailboat I always forget how to use articles with "television". I guess "the television" would mean "the TV set". (0:

Interesting question

1

Q: Should I use "was" or "would" in the following sentence?

I had to find a place to keep my dead dog. I thought of the house, but then decided it was/would be too unsanitary." What's the correct option? And why? (Or maybe both are correct but just mean different things?)

I gave my answer but am unsure. I'll scrap it if it gets downvoted. (0:

Anonymous

6:48 AM

@CopperKettle I meant TV in general. I haven't been keeping up with TV shows.

Anonymous

> #I haven't been keeping up with my TV set.

Anonymous

This seems a little weird (in terms of meaning).

Anonymous

> I haven't been keeping up with any TV shows lately.

Anonymous

> I haven't been keeping up with TV.

CopperKettle

I see, thanks!

I haven't watched television since May 2014.

Anonymous

6:53 AM

That's understandable. You need to save up your precious time so you can spend it here in chat. ;-)

CopperKettle

@snailboat Yes!

Besides, the propaganda went through the roof, beyond my tolerance level, way beyond. When I get glimpses of television, say, in some institution, it sounds like something from a parallel reality.

Anonymous

Ugh :-(

CopperKettle

I get a free municipal daily, and I glance through it when going up in the elevator.

"SS veterans go on marches in European capitals, decked in their uniforms and displaying thier swastikas", "neo-fascism has approached the very gates of Russia", "the latest racist-fascist escapade by the new Ukrainians"

(an example from the front page)

It regularly hints that the US and Europe want to start war against Russia to grab all the oil, so we need to increase military preparations, and so on.

Damkerng T.

11:02 AM

I can hear a difference between /frɛnds/ and /frɛnz/ but /frɛndz/ is the same as the latter. You can't get from the n to z without making a d sound. Think of endzone vs enzyme, the nz vs ndz is about as identical as sounds can get, unless you try to unnaturally stretch end-zone into 2 words. I am pretty particular about pronoindciation as well, but this is pedantic. — jgritty yesterday

Now that's interesting. "You can't get from the n to z without making a d sound."

tchrist

@DamkerngT. n-opqrstuvwxy-z

Damkerng T.

@tchrist Hehe! I guess that's not what jgritty meant, though. :-)

tchrist

Self-assessment is not always accurate.

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