English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: how to elaborate daily phrase in normal english and avoid grammetically and describe in mentally [learn-all-the-english]

Seriously, how do some people even exist? They don't even know which hole the pie goes in.

tchrist

Dunning–Kruger.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto James Brown or Jamiroquai?

Robusto

11:50 AM

Moi.

@tchrist More like Voight-Kampff, I think.

RegDwigнt

No I mean are you more like "Whoa! I feel good. Too-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-dum", or is it more like chilly-willy-nilly-swilly dark night club easy listening?

Robusto

Feels more like walking on a beach in Canada or Northern Maine.

RegDwigнt

Oh okay. So Céline Dion, then.

Robusto

He wants me to stay until the project I'm working on is complete. I said that or two weeks, whichever comes first.

Otherwise I'll be here another six months.

RegDwigнt

Marc Cohn - Walking In Memphis Official Video

►

tchrist

12:07 PM

0

A: What is a relish tray versus a veggie tray?

I like turtles and beef sticks

RegDwigнt

I like beetles and turf sticks.

Robusto

12:46 PM

You might want to look at how others answer questions before posting your own. We don't generally link to a Google search page or offer links with no explanation. And when we do explain, we do so using adequate English. — Robusto 9 secs ago

RegDwigнt

Wat is rulez of adequate english?

How to elaborate daily phrase?

Robusto

And seriously, what is it about the SC that makes them put double periods after [semi-] sentences?

RegDwigнt

> I wonder what he would have done if after he said lets dance and no one was a professional dancer?

I think the answer to that question will also answer yours.

Robusto

> How can we know the dancer from the dance?

RegDwigнt

He's the one dancer for money, he'll do what you want him to do.

tchrist

12:54 PM

Only if you pay the piper.

Robusto

Maybe they think the reader might overlook a single period, so they put in two to be sure. Kind of a belt-and-suspenders approach.

RegDwigнt

Holy fuck, tchrist has an avatar.

8

Robusto

@tchrist New Gravatar!

jinx

Nice.

RegDwigнt

Well. Our job here is done. Bye!

Robusto

Hey, on your way out don't forget my gravatar coke.

tchrist

12:55 PM

Gravatar coke?

Robusto

It's a jinx thing.

RegDwigнt

Robusto

Thanks you.

The eternal pause that refreshes.

RegDwigнt

Sorry, no gravatar coke for you. Only tchrist coke.

Robusto

Erfrischest dich.

IIRC

BTW, who the hell is Tesus Christ?

RegDwigнt

12:57 PM

You can't possibly remember that correctly, as that's a combination of letters you only just invented.

tchrist

@Robusto That’s tchrist to you.

Robusto

OIC

RegDwigнt

he's the Christ that invented Tesa Film.

tchrist

But yeah, that’s how my script capital T looks.

Mostly.

Robusto

I think Mach mal Pause was a Coke slogan, way back when.

tchrist

12:57 PM

I try to avoid cross the stem lest it be confused for an F.

Robusto

Don't cross the stems!

tchrist

Also: everybody else is so square that I wanted to be off-axis.

RegDwigнt

Uninterestingly enough, Tesafilm has a wiki in Hindi, Japanese, and Swedish, but not English or French.

セロハンテープ

セロハンテープ (cellophane tape) は、基材（支持体）となるセロファンの片面に接着剤を塗り、帯状にしたもの。通常の製品は、これを巻き取った巻物状にして供給される。セロファンテープ、セロファン粘着テープとも。無色透明の製品のほか色付きのものも販売されている。テープ両面に接着剤を塗ったものは両面テープと呼ばる。なお、一般的に普及している「セロテープ」という呼称はニチバンの登録商標である。アメリカや韓国（→コングリッシュ）では同様に商標名であるScotch Tapeと呼ばれる。イギリスでは同様に商標名でsellotapeと呼ばれる。 == 機能・用途 == 通常はテープカッターあるいはテープディスペンサー（Tape dispenser）と呼ばれる刃のついた台にセロハンテープを装着して使う。帯状になったセロハンテープの端を引っ張ると、設置されたテープが回転してはがれるようになっており、これをテープカッターについた刃で切断する。切り取られたテープ用途は紙を含む広範囲に及ぶ。巻き取られた状態のテープがべたつかずに片面だけはがれるように剥離材などが塗ってある。 == 歴史 == 1930年、アメリカ合衆国の3M社によって開発された。元々は、荷物を輸送中の湿気から守るために、防湿効果のあるセロファンを活用しようとしたものだが、この用途では製品化されず、テープでの製品化となった...

Robusto

@tchrist Have you seen my gravatar lately? It is anything but square.

RegDwigнt

Well some of those stems, well they got me quite cross. But the sun's been quite kind.

Robusto

12:59 PM

@RegDwigнt Fuck your serohante—pu katakana mismash cascade.

tchrist

Looks like you left your Alt-Gr key locked.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto in English, please.

And describe in mentally.

tchrist

Heavily.

Robusto

I would never get cellophane from セロハン.

RegDwigнt

I would never get cancer from セロハン.

But I guess to each his own.

Robusto

1:02 PM

Not in a gazillion years.

Since Japanese syllables always end in a vowel (except for ん, n), it would be safe to insert hyphen points after a vowel, but without knowledge of the language it would be difficult to tell whether n was standalone or not. Nevertheless, this is not a good question for ELU. You might try Japanese.SE. — Robusto 2 days ago

@Robusto This is a problem. ^^^^^^^

It actually is an English question because it merely a Japanese name in an entirely English text.

Plus, there's a closed dup on Japanese Language already.

I don’t know why people think how to correctly punctuate English is off-topic on ELU.

0

Q: Hyphenation of romaji names

I'm typesetting an English book that contains the Japanese name Akiyama. Is it allowed to hyphenate romaji transcription of names (I truly hope so!)? If so, how do you do it? I would think it would be between two Japanese letters, i.e., with hyphenation points A-ki-ya-ma. Is this a correct assump...

That’s closed on Japanese Language.

On the other hand, there may be some hyphenation tradition of the Romanization with which I am unfamiliar, deriving from the original. But I’m dubious. Throw Knuth–Liang at it and see what happens.

Robusto

@tchrist I tried to answer his question. But it's not one that yields easily to rules if you don't understand Japanese.

The thing is, there really isn't much of a problem in Japanese because every character is at least a syllable. The problem comes in hyphenating Japanese after it has been transliterated.

And there are different systems for transliteration.

RegDwigнt

Wait, there are problems in hyphenating Japanese?

Oh the wonders, shall you never cease!

tchrist

1:18 PM

% perl -MText::Hyphen -le 'print scalar Text::Hyphen->new->hyphenate("Akiyama")'
Akiya-ma

That's the Knuth–Liang algorithm’s results.

RegDwigнt

Yama-ma-so-fat.

tchrist

 perl -MText::Hyphen -le 'print scalar Text::Hyphen->new->hyphenate("Yomamasofat")'
Yoma-ma-so-fat

RegDwigнt

That was the joke.

秋山

Aki, yama.

Not Akiya, ma.

QED.

tchrist

DOA.

Robusto

@tchrist Then maybe you should answer the question and explain the Knuth-Liang algorithm. I'd be curious to see how it handles ん before a vowel.

That use case doesn't happen often, but you can't rule it out.

RegDwigнt

1:24 PM

I hereby announce that ん before a vowel is illegal in this chat! Also, dancing.

tchrist

Our newest meta poster types too much.

@Robusto Give me Latin.

I mean, show me the Romanization.

Robusto

Well, try renon.

tchrist

KL isn’t always optimal, but it is better that almost anything.

Robusto

Sometimes transliterated as ren'on.

tchrist

@Robusto It says don’t hyphenate that.

Robusto

1:26 PM

Haha.

tchrist

Well, it does.

Anonymous

ん is usually romanized as n, but as n' before any of a i u e o y.

Anonymous

So しんいち would officially be Shin'ichi.

Robusto

But not all writers would write it like that.

RegDwigнt

Renon the Barbarian.

Anonymous

1:27 PM

People don't always romanize things the same way, though. Some people don't use that apostrophe.

Robusto

My point exact.

RegDwigнt

I still don't understand. Who cares how many apostrophes it does or does not use. It's still -ichi and not -ni-chi either way.

Robusto

No.

If you go by the "hyphenate after a vowel" rule, you would hyphenate Shinichi as Shini-
chi.

Which would be wrong.

RegDwigнt

Yes. Which is exactly why it is not a rule.

Which is what I'm saying all along.

Robusto

Unless you're decent at Japanese, you don't know the difference between Shin'ichi and Shinichi.

RegDwigнt

1:30 PM

You either know that its Aki, yama and not Akiya, ma, or you don't.

If you know the first thing about Japanese, you are extremely likely to know 山.

Same for ichi.

Robusto

You're out of your element, Donny.

RegDwigнt

What do you need it for, dude.

tchrist

This gentleman types paragraphs that are too long for this format, and it would be even worse if SE used the sort of line width guidelines that prudent typesetters recommend (which are quite a bit shorter than ours) for easy reading.

RegDwigнt

WTFITS

tchrist

I have no idea.

Which, perhaps, is part of my point.

Robusto

1:33 PM

@RegDwigнt This presupposes a knowledge of the kanji, which many people simply do not have, and which would be virtually impossible to express as an algorithm. At least not one simple enough to actually use.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto yes.

You are saying that as if that's some kind of news.

Anonymous

English hyphenation isn't really always at morpheme boundaries.

Robusto

I'm just talking about syllables. Kanji characters are not syllables, even though some have single-syllable readings.

Anonymous

And orthographic syllables aren't always the same as spoken syllables.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto Yes. Still no news.

Robusto

1:34 PM

Then I don't see what point you're trying to make.

RegDwigнt

I am not making any points.

Robusto

All right: hyphenate after vowels, after n before a consonant, and try to avoid pre-vowel n if you don't know what you're doing. — Robusto 2 days ago

tchrist

@RegDwigнt You need to answer more questions then.

Robusto

I still think this is good advice.

RegDwigнt

What point are you trying to make other than "here's what everyone can read in the first sentence of the Wikipedia article on Japan"?

Anonymous

1:35 PM

I'm not sure how people arrived at the rules they've suggested for hyphenating Japanese names in English writing so far.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist okay so here's a point specifically for you. People don't know when to use a or an in English. Native speakers. And you want people to know shit about shit like Japanese shit.

All I'm saying is that I don't know the first thing about Japanese, and yet I somehow miraculously have no troubles telling an ichi or a yama from a hole in the ground.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt What? Are we speaking in different dimensions?

RegDwigнt

Which is all the more miraculous seeing how in my mother tongue, yama means "hole in the ground".

Robusto

@RegDwigнt I guess that makes you special.

So tell it to a computer.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto my point is precisely that it does not.

Robusto

1:38 PM

@RegDwigнt Well, if it's so easy, why is this person asking the question?

RegDwigнt

It's one thing to not know how a car works (check), or not to have a license (check), and a different thing entirely not to know that tyre is a word.

@Robusto exactly. Thank you.

Hyphenating Japanese is like eating pie. You can have serious problems if you dedicate your life to an endless search for them. Or you could just do like any normal person and eat the gorram pie jezis.

tchrist

Jeez.

RegDwigнt

Nice to meet you.

And I'm Reg.

tchrist

®

Robusto

I still think you would fail the Shinichi test.

Or ones similar.

RegDwigнt

1:43 PM

You are free to think any rubbish you please.

Robusto

Yes. If you're free to spout it, that seems only fair.

RegDwigнt

Exactly.

I am the only one agreeing here all the time.

Everyone else is so passive-aggressive about not being able to put their pants on one leg at a time.

Calmer than you are.

@Robusto also, do not go and limit yourself to the rubbish I spout. I specifically allowed you to think other rubbish as well.

Matt E. Эллен

Holy fuck, indeed

RegDwigнt

Must be the binding power of the mod agreement.

Thou shalt not use nor covet the default gravatar provided by the system to thouselth or thou's neighbour.

§5 section 42.

Matt E. Эллен

ah, good old
§5 section 42.

Anonymous

1:57 PM

Section 5 section 42!

Matt E. Эллен

I didn't like to say anything

Anonymous

Oh, I'm sorry :-)

Matt E. Эллен

;)

RegDwigнt

§ is paragraph, you dummies.

Apparently, you should of had skept less law skoolz.

Matt E. Эллен

¶ is usually paragraph

RegDwigнt

1:59 PM

You're usually paragraph.

Anonymous

Yeah, it's mentioned in ¶5 paragraph 42.

Matt E. Эллен

I'm usually Orc

RegDwigнt

The pilcrow is typically called the pilcrow. At least where I come from. We're strange like that.

Matt E. Эллен

§¶

RegDwigнt

§¶ittake

So now entire room descriptions are getting flagged.

Matt E. Эллен

2:04 PM

weird flag is weird

RegDwigнt

A strange game. How about a match of chess.

Anonymous

┌───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
│ ♜ │ ♞ │ ♝ │ ♛ │ ♚ │ ♝ │ ♞ │ ♜ │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│   │   │   │   │   │   │   │   │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│   │   │   │   │   │   │   │   │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│   │   │   │   │ ♙ │   │   │   │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│   │   │   │   │   │   │   │   │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│ ♙ │ ♙ │ ♙ │ ♙ │   │ ♙ │ ♙ │ ♙ │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤

RegDwigнt

See full text.

You'll never guess what's coming.

Anyway.

@snailboat checkmate in 25 moves.

Matt E. Эллен

awfully confident for an owl

Robusto

§ is segno, not "section" . . . Show some class.

RegDwigнt

2:07 PM

@MattE.Эллен Awfully confident? Do you know anything about chess?

25 moves is a helluva lot.

If I were overly confident, I'd've said 15.

Matt E. Эллен

@RegDwigнt I've never seen an owl successfully make one move

Robusto

┌───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
│ ♜ │ ♞ │ ♝ │ ♛ │ ♚ │ ♝ │ ♞ │ ♜ │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│ ♟ │ ♟ │   │ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │ ♟ │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│   │   │   │   │   │   │   │   │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│   │   │ ♟ │   │   │   │   │   │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│   │   │   │   │ ♙ │   │   │   │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│   │   │   │   │   │   │   │   │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
│ ♙ │ ♙ │ ♙ │ ♙ │   │ ♙ │ ♙ │ ♙ │
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤

RegDwigнt

@MattE.Эллен And I shall not be the one to rip you out of your dream world.

Robusto

I used to play c5 as a kid because Bobby Fischer like it. Then I started getting my ass handed to me.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto a rookie move. Jeremy Silman is laughing at you.

Robusto

2:09 PM

jinx

Damkerng T.

Is en passant applied here?

Anonymous

Sure, why not?

RegDwigнt

Here, have a Silman coke.

Damkerng T.

I was just curious. :-)

Robusto

There has been no move for which en passant could be applied yet.

RegDwigнt

2:10 PM

Hush. Don't break the news on him.

Robusto

In fact, there is no en passant possible until one side has moved at least three times.

Matt E. Эллен

@RegDwigнt like, over his head?

RegDwigнt

@Robusto By which point whichever side I'm not on will long have lost.

Damkerng T.

@Robusto Sure. I meant the game, though.

RegDwigнt

@MattE.Эллен yes. Massive reading comprehension skills. Have a cookie.

Matt E. Эллен

2:12 PM

nom

Johan Larsson

github.com/Geal/nom

yes, we must try it

RegDwigнt

Oh is that Rick Astley's new address?

I've been wondering.

Johan Larsson

"Safe and fast parsers with Nom and Rust" by Geoffroy Couprie

►

RegDwigнt

Geoffroy Couprie is such a fake name it hurts.

Kind of like Jason Bourne's Russian name in Bourne's Identity.

ASH'F LSHTSHFUM

Matt E. Эллен

liiitiiiphum

Anonymous

2:17 PM

I haven't read that yet.

RegDwigнt

Actually that's not even Ash'f. That's Ashch'f or Ash''f.

Which apparently translates to Thomas, which for some weird reason is spelled Foma in English.

Johan Larsson

@Matt watch the nom-talk, I think you will like it.

RegDwigнt

I suppose it's the "pronounced Manchester, spelled Liverpool" thing again.

Matt E. Эллен

@JohanLarsson OK :D

Johan Larsson

Rust has elements of beauty for sure

RegDwigнt

2:20 PM

I nom the talk, I nom the walk. I'm the cock of the walk, baby. Except once my nom is on I make gold records.

Johan Larsson

Type system to make race conditions not compile

Anonymous

I read a terrible Japanese book once. It had the least convincing English names I've ever heard.

RegDwigнt

Yeah, like Akiya-ma and Shini-chi.

I know I know.

Anonymous

I've never met an American named Backyard Bottomslash before.

RegDwigнt

You've not been to Arkansas, I figure.

Matt E. Эллен

2:23 PM

@snailboat and I still don't want to

RegDwigнt

Remember my nom. Say it. You're goddamn right.

@MattE.Эллен well, sucks to have used up all your three wishes on other things, eh.

There's no escape.

Matt E. Эллен

(§_§)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Lego Movie's Emmet in pure CSS

Anonymous

I type § by typing sekusyon into Japanese input. That might be why I always mentally pronounce it with its name "section".

Anonymous

I think I used to not mentally pronounce it at all.

RegDwigнt

2:26 PM

Yeah. If there's one thing CSS should learn from LEGO, that's NOT BEING FRICKEN CSS.

@snailboat Your family must be wondering what to do with your merikurisumasu cards.

Anonymous

@RegDwigнt And ¶ is paragurafu! :-) Although I can also type danraku.

Matt E. Эллен

@JohanLarsson listening to him is hard

Johan Larsson

ok, close the tab then

You tried and did not like it. End of story.

RegDwigнt

Merikurisumasu furosutopu.

Damkerng T.

So § means "paragraph"?

> Пара́граф (от греческого παράγραφος — написанное рядом) — мелкое подразделение текста внутри главы, раздела, обозначаемое обычно специальным знаком — § или пп.

Anonymous

2:33 PM

@RegDwigнt furu sutoppu :-)

RegDwigнt

@snailboat huru suto—pu. They don't really have a p, and the F is just a sigh.

@DamkerngT. it does in every language but English, yes. Like ananas.

Damkerng T.

Are you sure that ananas is used in every language but English?

RegDwigнt

Well. That's by definition.

Everyone who's not English is an ananas.

Damkerng T.

Who defines it?

Anonymous

@RegDwigнt /f/ has been in the process of being phonemicized over the last century and already has phoneme status for younger speakers, though it's not universal. It's true that it's realized as [ɸ] and not [f] but it does appear before all five vowels. I don't know what the business about not having a p is, though.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

2:36 PM

@Robusto yay!

tchrist had an avatar before.

RegDwigнt

Geez I'm getting abstracts of PhDs on Sinolinguistics dropped on me just like that.

Anonymous

Sino 〜 Chinese

RegDwigнt

Exactly.

Matt E. Эллен

cyanolinguistics is much more dangerous