Language Overflow

tchrist

12:05 AM

@StoneyB Then however did you play your 78s? :)

StoneyB

12:37 AM

@tchrist On the Victrola, of course. Don't they teach you kids history any more?

tchrist

We actually had some 78s of my folks’ when I was growing up.

Not that many, but some.

StoneyB

1:17 AM

@tchrist My father had some terrific recordings out of the 20s & 30s: I still remember Libby Holman's 'Love for Sale', Berlin himself doing 'Oh How I Hate to Get Up", a George Jessel monologue, Armstrong and Bessie Smith's 'St Louis Blues'

Damkerng T.

5:47 AM

Without using your example (which I find unidiomatic with a participle), here is an example you can find on the web: "What did Sherlock Holmes say about a dog not barking?” --Tight as a Tick by Toni L. P. Kelner. — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

> a) I can't find my notebook that contains all my addresses.
b) I can't find my notebook containing all my addresses.

I can feel (rather strongly) that b) is unidiomatic, but I don't know why.

Will native speaker say that in spoken English? I mean omitting ”there is” and "that" in spoken English. — Kam 6 hours ago

jimsug

> I can't find my notebook with the all my/the addresses

Damkerng T.

@jimsug That's much better!

jimsug

> I can't find my notebook with the addresses

Damkerng T.

Yes! I think my addresses is a little odd too.

jimsug

Yeah.

containing seems unusual, here.

Damkerng T.

5:52 AM

nods

jimsug

Even for something physical...

Damkerng T.

I think what we have in our address books are not "our" addresses. :-)

jimsug

> I can't find the box containing the fruit

> I can't find the box with the fruit in it

Hmmm.

Damkerng T.

I think with a box (or perhaps the box), it probably works, but I doubt if it works with my box.

jimsug

> I can't find the notebook with the addresses.

I suppose it would depend on whether you're looking for it amongst notebooks with other contents, and notebooks with other owners. Perhaps.

Damkerng T.

6:33 AM

0

Q: the meaning of "His hands wash together"

He looks up. Like an after-image, the form of the tears swims in his eyes; the picture blurs. He blinks. Someone is walking towards him. It is George Cavendish. His hands wash together, his face is a mask of concern. — Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel Does the bold sentence mean that he...

sentence-meaning

An interesting expression.

I guess what he guessed (sort of, because I don't think it necessarily is wringing).

0

A: I don't understand how to use 'infinitive' here.

The infinitive phrase "to actually perform" is there, it serves as a noun, a direct object to the verb "makes" (with us as the indirect object). Some verbs when used with infinitive phrases as objects, cause the latter to lose the 'to' particle. "Make" is one of those. "Help" is another. You ...

Hmm...

"infinitive as noun"

Word of the Day: parlance

Ahmad

7:02 AM

Hi @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Ahmad

How are you

Excuse me I have a question.

I wrote Subsequently, some approaches used the output segments of the VIPS as a basis for the detection and extracting data records

Damkerng T.

Good, thanks!

Ahmad

the output segments of the VIPS or by the VIPS or provided by the VIPS?

Damkerng T.

That would depend on what your VIPS is.

Without knowing what it is, I think of is fine.

Ahmad

7:06 AM

VIPS is an algorithm or method which divide a page into visual segments

Damkerng T.

of is okay.

by is not good.

provided by is probably okay.

good, thank you

Welcome!

C U around

Don't forget that, alternatively, you can use VIPS attributively.

See you!

Damkerng T.

8:00 AM

1

Q: Is it acceptable to write "the innovative Picasso"?

By including pieces of cloth, newspaper, wallpaper, and other materials in his work, the innovative Picasso was an important influence on twentieth-century art. How is using "the innovative Picasso" correct here? Can adjectives be added just after the introductory clause ends, i.e. "the inno...

sentence-construction adjectives sentence-structure

Articles are hard.

It's The Great D'Anton, and the innovative Picasso.

But it's Honest Abe.

Damkerng T.

8:27 AM

Is it formal or informal? And in what context? The more you tell us, the better answer you can get. Otherwise, anyone can start by looking up the synonyms of many, and maybe crosschecking it in corpora. — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

My basic choices are several, numerous, countless, and informally, a lot, and plenty.

But let them improve the question a little bit.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

8:51 AM

\o

Damkerng T.

o/

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

New profile pic. :)

Damkerng T.

9:22 AM

1

A: Can I write "Currently I am an university instructor for more than 3 years"?

When talking about a span of time, I would switch the am to have been: Currently, I have been an university instructor for more than 3 years. Some might say that the "currently" sounds a little awkward with "I have been", and I wouldn't disagree. So this might be better written as: I am...

This is plain, and good, and simple.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

10:33 AM

@Dam

Damkerng T.

Yes?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Which book is this?

doko.vn/tai-lieu/chuyen-de-relative-clause-1841148

Damkerng T.

Am I supposed to know that?!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Yes, you're supposed to be an encyclopedia.

Damkerng T.

It looks like a lecture note made by someone.

0

Q: What is this "Only"?

What costs little is little worth. Even for the highest posts it is only in some cases application that is wanting, rarely the talent. Is it like, Even in the best jobs or social positions, which are usually said to require genius, there are some cases where the only thing that's lacki...

grammar

> What costs little is little worth. Even for the highest posts it is only in some cases application that is wanting, rarely the talent.

Hmm... another specimen for language forensics of the day.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

10:46 AM

> Pile the ties not in red on that counter.

Sometimes I run into troubles trying to make my examples make sense.

BTW that's a reduced relative clause, right?

Damkerng T.

I think so. I'm more familiar with another term, whiz-deletion.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Yeah, that's a useful term.

Damkerng T.

Oh, the text was written by Baltasar Gracián Morales, in 1892.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Oooh @Dam cambridge.org/grammarandbeyond/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/….

Damkerng T.

Grammar and Beyond!

Ahh... no wonder that it sounds "translationese".

> Born in 1601 in Belmonte, a suburb of Calatayud, in the kingdom of Aragon, Spain, Baltasar Gracian Morales became what you might call today's version of a 17th century life coach.

So, it's actually much older than 1892, and it's from Spanish.

Let's see if I can make sense of it in the context...

I think in the manuscript, "application" means "hard work".

I can get the general idea, but it would be too risky for me to elaborate that line.

"only" is strangely used indeed.

But I don't think it's what the OP thinks.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

11:01 AM

@DamkerngT. ?

Damkerng T.

16 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

> What costs little is little worth. Even for the highest posts it is only in some cases application that is wanting, rarely the talent.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Oh, you mean the "only" question?

Damkerng T.

Yes!

It's here (a recent reprint): books.google.com/books?id=bdfoXFiC3koC&pg=PA27

A-ha! I can see through that sentence now!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. Eeek it looks like when I make an attempt in writing something with big words.

Damkerng T.

It was from the 17th century, and it was translated from Spanish.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

11:08 AM

Thy weird it lookth liketh.

Damkerng T.

LOL

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

11:30 AM

esl.about.com/od/grammarstructures/a/…

Hmm, @Dam I'm not sure that's classifying stuff in a good way.

Damkerng T.

About.com is usually good.

I'm going to have dinner, so you can drop your thoughts here, but it would take a while before I will respond.

See you. o/

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Yeah, esp. chem.about.

\o

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

12:42 PM

@Dam I answered.

Damkerng T.

"eminent source"!

Reminds me of that phrase, "Your Eminence"!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

It's Cambridge man!

The only thing more eminent is CGEL, which is from Cambridge.

I tried hard not to drown in explanations and stick to the point in the question.

Though I could've written a long answer.

Damkerng T.

:D

This is about right for ELL, imo.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Anyways, @Dam could you make sure I didn't make an obvious mistake like I always do?

Damkerng T.

I read through your answer, and didn't find any mistake standing out.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

12:46 PM

I must be dreaming OMG!

Anyhoo, @Jim here may be able to point out the mistakes in it better. Or Snail, or Stoney. I'm leaving for Kung Fu, BBL!

Damkerng T.

I'm more concern with the OP's example, actually. But you've probably seen that in the chat log.

Having fun with Kung Fu!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. Weird, yes, ungrammatical, no.

When I get back I should add a section advising against doing it.

It opens a path to Garden Path Effect.

(Which a learner should avoid)

jimsug

Nah, I'm having a bit of fun with SEDE

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Teehee!

jimsug

Answer Score by Length

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

12:54 PM

I want to come back from Kung Fu to hearing Tim Stone had problems with SEDE and the site's out for maintenance.

Damkerng T.

1:45 PM

I'm trying to look for a good way to get the closed reason on SEDE.

And I think it's a sort of "undocumented" feature. ;-)

StoneyB

1:58 PM

@DamkerngT. The db schema is here, if you scroll down. Two tables seem to be involved: PendingFlags and CloseAsOffTopicReasonTypes.

Damkerng T.

It looks like it's indeed undocumented. SE stores the close reason in PostHistory.Comment. And we have to convert it to INT first in order to look it up in CloseReasonTypes!.

StoneyB

Ayup. Kludge.

Damkerng T.

4:31 PM

Your emphasis comes at a cost of correctness. 'Pretty much fast' is wrong, grammatically. If you want to empahsize perhaps 'incredibly fast' or 'amazingly fast' might work better — mcalex Jun 5 '14 at 8:59

Good point.

(found during Title clean-up)

A candidate does not get opportunity of being interviewed by someone unless that someone is Barack Obama! — Maulik V ♦ May 21 '14 at 8:02

Hmm...

@MaulikV what are you trying to suggest? — user1414696 May 21 '14 at 8:44

Was the suggestion that it should be "opportunity" not "an opportunity" (in the OP's examples)?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. *the opportunity.

Damkerng T.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M *the? Oh, you mean Maulik made a typo?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

4:46 PM

@DamkerngT. It must be

> A candidate does not get the opportunity of being interviewed by someone unless that someone is Barack Obama!

I used to be ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ at articles.

Damkerng T.

shrug

tchrist

5:09 PM

Let’s try to think of how to make this less unpleasant.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

?

Damkerng T.

7

A: Is it correct to use multiple tenses within a paragraph in a story?

I think where you run into trouble is in the last two sentences of the paragraph. I came far, and the journey was very troublesome. There are cut marks all over my face, and hands. From the previous sentence (“By the time I reached the river bank. . .”) the reader is pointed to a specific m...

Whoa! This is a really good answer!

? @tchrist too

tchrist

@DamkerngT. There’s something odd about focusing on some mathematically “correct” designation with such things. I suspect it is due to ESL tests.

@DamkerngT. I probably said too much.

Damkerng T.

I think so.

Bounty Potential: ell.stackexchange.com/q/23424/3281

Damkerng T.

5:35 PM

.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

.

Damkerng T.

An example showing the string substitution doesn't always work:

> What is the difference between the two?

> What is the difference between both?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Why?

Damkerng T.

I still don't get to the point. Typing...

> What is the difference between one and one?

What's wrong with 'one and one'?

tchrist

?

Catija

5:47 PM

@DamkerngT. It doesn't define "which"... So, you could certainly write:

tchrist

The difference between one and one is zero. :)

Catija

> What is the difference between this one and that one?

tchrist

I think the primary source of all these infinitely many questions about tense are all of them coming from non-Indo-European speakers.

Damkerng T.

@tchrist In the meaning of "between the two".

tchrist

They don’t have tense in their languages, so they do not understand it.

Damkerng T.

5:48 PM

@tchrist Exactly.

Have you heard about the big 4 in my opinion?

tchrist

I have never seen a speaker of French, Spanish, German, Italian, et cetera struggling to understand time.

Catija

@tchrist Japanese has a sort of past tense... They certainly say "I did something" vs "I am doing something"

tchrist

ELL seems more like ALL to me.

Damkerng T.

@Catija I think it could be difficult to explain why we can't or don't say "one and one" for "the two".

ALL?

Catija

@DamkerngT. All language learners?

tchrist

5:50 PM

Asian Language Learners.

@DamkerngT. This one and that one.

You need deictic markers.

Catija

@DamkerngT. But you can... it just has to be this one and that one.

Damkerng T.

I see. Yes, I think the distance between the two language families(?) are farther than within the same family.

Catija

Really, when you say "What is the difference between "the" two?" You're saying "What is the difference between these two [things]?".

tchrist

> Korean verbs have a variety of affixed forms which can be described as representing present, past and future tenses, although they can alternatively be considered to be aspectual.
Similarly, Japanese verbs are described as having present and past tenses, although they may be analysed as aspects. Chinese and many other East Asian languages generally lack inflection and are considered to be tenseless languages, although they may have aspect markers which convey certain information about time reference.

Damkerng T.

Or "one" and "the other".

I usually say that in my first language (Thai), the reference to time is usually implied (though again, it's not always).

tchrist

5:57 PM

What is the “is it being rational” guy really asking? Have I misunderstood the question?

Damkerng T.

I think, basically, they're not sure how they should understand participle phrases.

Or the complement of see.

> you can see it very much being pushed to its limits by a real driver.

tchrist

I sure hope this doesn’t turn into some gerund-versus-participle confusion.

Him winning the prize was all I wanted to see.

Damkerng T.

Reading it a bit more, I think they want to understand the sentence by rewriting it as a simple sentence.

Basically, they try to ask themselves, how should I write the same thing as a simple sentence?

> a) It's pushed to its limits by a real driver.

> b) It's being pushed to its limits by a real driver.

tchrist

> A real driver is pushing it to its limits, and you can see this.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think if you suggest that, it'll be very helpful for them.

tchrist

6:07 PM

Thanks.

Damkerng T.

Welcome. That's only my guess, anyway.

Damkerng T.

6:21 PM

When you feel desperate, are you angry?

> desperate: very worried and angry because you do not know how to deal with an unpleasant situation

(reviewing this question)

Bounty Potential: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/23110/…

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

1

Q: Can I omit "being" with word "after" in a reduced relative clause?

When (being) happy, dogs wag their tails. As shown above, sometimes word "being" can be deleted. Does the word "after" work in the same way too? After offended, he sued the owner of the store. Is it possible?

relative-clauses ellipsis reduced-relative-clause

An interesting question IMO @Dam.

Damkerng T.

6:39 PM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Probably okay, but I think it's better with "being", or a full clause.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. I'm with you, and the "prolly okay" intrigues me since I just answered something similar today.

Damkerng T.

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it asks for strategic writing advice. — StoneyB 2 hours ago

Oh, I see. -- I wondered why StoneyB deleted his answer.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I wish everyone was as responsible as him.

Damkerng T.

Actually, I think this is not bad at all:

> Should we give a damn what users think?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Too many questions that are likely to get closed get answered.

Damkerng T.

6:44 PM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Me too!

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M And vice versa!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. Haha, well, I've written meta for that, how'bout I write something for the other one too?

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Up to you. (But go for it!)

It's interesting what rep points can make us.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. Didn't J.R. ask for the same thing when he said "DO NOT FEED THE BEARS"?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure I can remember that, but I sort of can, vaguely.

1

A: Do we use "my" or possessive pronouns in such sentences?

SHORT ANSWER 1. He noticed my coming up the water. 2. He noticed me coming up the water. Both the sentences are grammatically correct. Yet the objective form is more common, for, in my opinion, it's much more logical. You notice the person doing it. Even if you want to see their action...

Hmm...

> 3. She had witnessed the breaking of the seal. [Gerundial Noun]
4. Their is no point in breaking the seal. [Gerund Participle form of verb]
5. They were entertaining the troops. [Gerund Participle form of verb]
6. an entertaining show [Present-Participle Adjective]

So far, so good.

> Now we need to distinguish the subject of the Gerund Participle. Consider the following examples -
7. I regretted his leaving the firm.
Here his is the subject of the Gerund Participle.

In I regretted his leaving the firm, is leaving the firm still a Gerund Participle?

It looks like Araucaria is aiming at a content clause being used as the object of notice.

(In other words, it's not only "He noticed <something>", but "He noticed [(that) <clause>]".)

> a) Me walking down the road in the night is nice.

> b) Him swimming in the pool in the morning took almost an hour.

> c) His swimming in the pool in the morning took almost an hour.

> d) He swimming in the pool in the morning took almost an hour.

Moving the pronoun up to the front could make the awkwardness more obvious.

tchrist

7:05 PM

Agree.

Anonymous

9:49 PM

"I can't find my notebook not containing all my addresses" is a little hard on my brain.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@snailboat I think I'm going to edit and advise against using it.

Anonymous

I understand why people might say the gerund and participle forms don't need to be distinguished in Modern English. But the term gerund-participle seems so clunky!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I checked a lot o' places, never found any evidence about its ungrammaticality.

Anonymous

I'm not sure I'd say it's ungrammatical, just that it's hard on my poor little brain.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Poor brain. Pats brain

Anonymous

9:54 PM

In Japanese, there used to be separate attributive and predicative forms for verbs and adjectives.

Anonymous

Over the last thousand years, they merged.

Anonymous

So now verbs and adjectives look the same whether they come before a noun, modifying it, or come later, predicating on the noun.

Anonymous

akai ringo ⇔ ringo ga akai

Anonymous

'red apple' ⇔ 'apple is red'

Anonymous

In the grammar taught in Japanese schools, the forms are still distinguished.

Anonymous

9:56 PM

Some folks have done away with one or the other.

Anonymous

There's a grammar floating around online that calls this the attributive form, even when it's used to predicate.

Anonymous

Seems weird to me.

Anonymous

But then, calling it the attributive-predicative form is pretty clunky too.

Anonymous

(Alternate translation: adnominal-conclusive form. Also clunky? In Japanese it would be 連体終止形)

Anonymous

10:11 PM

There's a set of vocabulary used in the teaching of Japanese grammar to non-native speakers, and in that vocabulary this form is now called the 辞書形 'dictionary form'.

Anonymous

Of course, 'dictionary form' doesn't tell you anything about how it functions.

Anonymous

It's like calling the gerund-participial form the -ing form.

Anonymous

Which isn't so bad, in my mind.

Anonymous

10:30 PM

The only question, then, is how you distinguish (in your terminology) the -ing form of a verb from deverbal forms that end in -ing. When you just say -ing form, it sounds like it might include deverbal -ing forms.

StoneyB

11:31 PM

@snailboat Let's follow Lewis Carroll and rename it with a portmanteau word: gerbil

Anonymous

Gerbils are some of my favorite animals, by the way :-)

Anonymous

I love all rodents. I had pet gerbils when I was little.

Anonymous

We had one named Dinky.

StoneyB

I'm a running a D&D game now with a special Shapeshifter class on the Old Norse model: the character can transform into an animal form. I expected players who took the class to pick wolf or bear or some such thing; my player picked lemming. For his second beast, a flying animal, he didn't pick eagle or hawk or owl, but puffin.

Anonymous

Oh! I love puffins, too! Your player has good taste.

Anonymous

11:36 PM

Plus, both fit the far north theme.

StoneyB

Puffuins and penguins... When my son played at the Edinburgh Tattoo, the Norwegian Royal Guard were also on the bill. While they were there they visited a penguin which the King of Norway had given the Edinburgh Zoo. Here's what happened.

Transcript for